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Old 2011-09-26, 04:32   Link #24581
Bluemail
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How about the other way around? Kanon/Shannon dies when Jessica/George die, respectively. Like Will said about the 2nd Twilight of EP2: "Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse". Might mean something like Kanon doesn't have any role now that Jessica is dead, so he's "killed" (not exactly "fulfilling" or about leaving a corpse, but!). Though he supposedly dies in EP6 too (didn't the ending credits say Kanon died?) even if Jessica is alive, but maybe that is because he lost the love duel, thus giving up on Jessica. Note that in EP2 Jessica dies first and Kanon after that. Jessica protecting Kanon might be about Kanon not disappearing because Yasu can't deny his feelings for her.

Trying to make sense of the order of murders in EP4, going by the red of Kanon being the 9th victim, maybe Jessica was the 8th victim (or with Wanderer's hypothesis, the 10th)?
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Old 2011-09-26, 05:04   Link #24582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
This and the rest that you wrote is pretty much the theory we've developed since EP5 and 6. But there were a few more details with big implications:

1. Krauss is aware of some or all of Yasu's plans. (Probably just some.) This is due to the talk of about how he had the island surveyed and had Toraian (the hotel building) built in EP1. If Yasu was shown to be in control in EP7, it's likely she had Krauss perform those activities for him. The building of Toraian may have been cover for the survey of the island; or rather the survey of the underground military base and explosives. Afterall, Krauss already used his black market contacts to exchange some of the gold for money for the money cards for Yasu. So Krauss is pretty much part of Yasu's plans; and of course he is hiding things from Natsuhi.
Building the guesthouse is an awful expensive way to cover up getting a survey. It would be much easier to have the survey done, then state that the island wasn't suitable for his planned resort.

Also, Genji had the gold exchanged for Yasu.
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Old 2011-09-26, 06:39   Link #24583
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Welp, so much for that hypothesis. It doesn't even work half the time.
Ive already stated this but I'll mention it again. The servants can die without the lovers dying but if the lover dies then servant must die as well. The only game where this criteria doesn't work is in EP5 and thats because they really aren't dead or like Virgilia said "The game lacks love"

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Building the guesthouse is an awful expensive way to cover up getting a survey. It would be much easier to have the survey done, then state that the island wasn't suitable for his planned resort.

Also, Genji had the gold exchanged for Yasu.
Krauss had some horrible financial decisions before and they seem to conflict with this idea that a mastermind culprit where behind them.
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Old 2011-09-26, 09:38   Link #24584
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Not necessarily. Or atleast, not in a strict If X then Y manner. The idea that "Shannon is keeping Beatrice from murdering George" only works if they are two conflicting wills of some sort, and that ditching a costume or identity can just snuff out a will. This doesn't really work in either model of the Yasu-psychology, but in the manner I presented, it has Yasu casting aside her hopes for one of the cousins, but not having to ditch a character beforehand.
I think you've got this all sideways. "Shannon" and "Kanon" aren't the clothes Yasu wears, they're parts of herself that reflect her love for George and Jessica. Resolving to kill one of them would mean throwing away that part of herself. This isn't something shallow like saying "Okay, I won't ever dress up as Shannon again. Let's go shoot George in the face." Rather, so long as she held onto that love, she wouldn't be able to bring herself to kill them.

Yasu can dress up in Shannon's clothes all she wants, but "Yasu in Shannon's clothes who doesn't love George" is not Shannon. "Yasu who loves George" is Shannon.

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EP1: Beatrice is clearly letting them live as long as possible. She doesn't go out of her way to kill them and they reach the end of the time limit having squandered the many opportunities she gave them.

EP2: Both couples die together. This isn't equivalent to "Character dies so that Lover can die." It's literally nixxing both at once.

EP3: Sure, except it seems that Alternate Culprit X seems to be the one doing the killings after the First Twilight and allegory indicates that Yasu is trying to protect or aid the lovers somehow. Jessica could've been killed on the spot but she was laid to a safer area.
Deciding to abandon her love for them != deciding to kill them or deciding that she hates them, though. The implication doesn't go both ways.

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Yea except Kanon is the 9th victim and Jessica died before then. And George's death was confirmed before Battler confirmed Shannon's death, too. Oops.

The George/Shannon one is ambiguous at best. Kanon/Jessica is pretty much right out.
Are you sure you should be swallowing fantasy depictions whole like that? Gohda and Kumasawa were the seventh and eighth victims.


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Prove it. Erika never confirmed it.
On the morning of October 5th, while Natsuhi was receiving the third call from the Man From 19 Years Ago, some people knocked on her bedroom door. Do you remember who they were...?


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It would've, if Erika didn't hijack things. The Love Duel sure seems like it allowed for the normal system of doing things if Erika didn't take the campaign off the rails, to use D&D lingo. This is an Unknown at Best.
Battler rigged the whole game for the express purpose of having Erika hijack it. Why should he need to prepare a different culprit?
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Old 2011-09-26, 09:38   Link #24585
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So here's a fun Nanjo question: Why is he left alive if there isn't a murder game? That is to say, imagine that the whole thing is actually a crime (disregarding R-Prime of course, don't worry about that for this). Why leave Nanjo alive?

What do you gain as the culprit? Nanjo is the only person capable of making a medical diagnosis, capable of recognizing that a person might not be entirely dead (I don't mean faking, I mean in unstable condition), and quite possibly capable of saving a victim's life. Any of these things can screw you. And he's vulnerable; he appears to always have his own room, he's not there with a wife or a companion, and he's often alone (and is almost never accounted for on the night of the 4th).

You can certainly say "he was paid off," but consider my premise that this is actually a crime by design. Why risk it? You paid him, sure, but your eventual plan is that he dies anyway. You're not going to spare him, or at least the fictions don't suggest Nanjo is off limits after the First Twilight like Battler is. There's no reason to keep him alive any longer than necessary, particularly if he is "in on it." If, like Frank Zappa, he's only in it for the money, he's even less safe to leave alive than the others who are probably in on it. Genji has a specific loyalty to the family head. Nanjo is presumably there because he's paid.

In the scenario where there is no game, what possible reason could there be to spare him even once?
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:26   Link #24586
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
How about the other way around? Kanon/Shannon dies when Jessica/George die, respectively. Like Will said about the 2nd Twilight of EP2: "Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse". Might mean something like Kanon doesn't have any role now that Jessica is dead, so he's "killed" (not exactly "fulfilling" or about leaving a corpse, but!). Though he supposedly dies in EP6 too (didn't the ending credits say Kanon died?) even if Jessica is alive, but maybe that is because he lost the love duel, thus giving up on Jessica. Note that in EP2 Jessica dies first and Kanon after that. Jessica protecting Kanon might be about Kanon not disappearing because Yasu can't deny his feelings for her.
Or this. And I wouldn't call it a strict hypothesis or rule. It's simply the natural way things will go with how Beatrice's pieces are set up; Shannon and Kanon are in fact always "with" Beatrice so they will always be present when Beatrice is about to kill their love interest. So as long as Shannon has the character trait "will fight to the death to protect George" a fight will naturally ensue (assuming Shannon hasn't already been killed earlier). Beatrice may kill Shannon first or George first in this situation, but she will kill both one right after the other. And of course this also applies with Kanon and Jessica.

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Trying to make sense of the order of murders in EP4, going by the red of Kanon being the 9th victim, maybe Jessica was the 8th victim (or with Wanderer's hypothesis, the 10th)?
Jessica being the 8th victim in this way would be problematic, because who would be the 7th victim? It couldn't be George, because then Shannon would be the 8th victim instead. Similarly, Gohda and Kumasawa probably died at the same time. It could maybe be Kyrie, Nanjo, or Krauss, but that's kind of pushing it.

So yeah, I think Jessica is best as the 10th victim. 7th and 8th are best as either Shannon & George or Gohda & Kumasawa.
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Old 2011-09-26, 12:25   Link #24587
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Jessica being the 8th victim in this way would be problematic, because who would be the 7th victim? It couldn't be George, because then Shannon would be the 8th victim instead. Similarly, Gohda and Kumasawa probably died at the same time. It could maybe be Kyrie, Nanjo, or Krauss, but that's kind of pushing it.

So yeah, I think Jessica is best as the 10th victim. 7th and 8th are best as either Shannon & George or Gohda & Kumasawa.
Shannon's part of "Kyrie's group", so she can't die until after Kanon does.
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Old 2011-09-26, 12:38   Link #24588
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Or this. And I wouldn't call it a strict hypothesis or rule. It's simply the natural way things will go with how Beatrice's pieces are set up; Shannon and Kanon are in fact always "with" Beatrice so they will always be present when Beatrice is about to kill their love interest. So as long as Shannon has the character trait "will fight to the death to protect George" a fight will naturally ensue (assuming Shannon hasn't already been killed earlier). Beatrice may kill Shannon first or George first in this situation, but she will kill both one right after the other. And of course this also applies with Kanon and Jessica.
I'm probably talking about something like Jessica/George dying "allows" Kanon or Shannon to die. And as you say, Kanon/Shannon dying "allows" Jessica or George to be killed. It became some kind of a paradox... But I feel they're both right in some way. Using the word allow, I try to avoid stating that they need to die instantly after the other. The possibility opens, to say.

Let's take the instances of Shannon or Kanon reviving against the red. I thought that maybe they revive because George and Jessica need them, but they're gone for good if Jessica and George have also died. What I meant with my earlier post was that there being no Jessica or George around, Shannon and Kanon will die without the chance of resurrection. Well, EP2 second twilight might be problematic, though the Kanon later appearing is just Zombie Kanon.

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Jessica being the 8th victim in this way would be problematic, because who would be the 7th victim? It couldn't be George, because then Shannon would be the 8th victim instead. Similarly, Gohda and Kumasawa probably died at the same time. It could maybe be Kyrie, Nanjo, or Krauss, but that's kind of pushing it.

So yeah, I think Jessica is best as the 10th victim. 7th and 8th are best as either Shannon & George or Gohda & Kumasawa.
Yeah, we can't really put Kyrie, Nanjo, Krauss or Shannon as the 7th or 8th victim because it is said in red that Kanon was the first to die in Kyrie's group. Putting Maria in there sounds weird too. EDIT: Heh, LyricalAura beat me to it!

But it was "Shannon" who killed George in EP4 right? And that Shannon is the corpse who shot herself in the head. But going by what you say, Wanderer, she shouldn't be able to kill George. So is it that Shannon died before George? So the one who shot herself in the head was... the 19th person?

It's one thing I like in Umineko. Fitting for the setting, there actually was Beatrice, or the 19th person. Though he practically is the 16th. The person whose full name never appeared in the beginning of the story. I like the idea of Yasu, the core which is left after peeling of the facades. Episode 4 is the culmination of this, where the reason for even the usually prevailing Beatrice-side disappears because Battler couldn't bring her satisfaction.
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Old 2011-09-26, 12:40   Link #24589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Yasu can dress up in Shannon's clothes all she wants, but "Yasu in Shannon's clothes who doesn't love George" is not Shannon. "Yasu who loves George" is Shannon.
Thank you for bringing that up. We even have exactly that situation.
In EP2 we encounter Kanon who is not Kanon. Somebody who "wears Kanon's appearance" appears in front of people and threatens them with things that are definitely not Kanon's way of thinking. Yet Kanon is a name that can only be used by the person who owns the name Kanon.
Especially interesting is the way it is said again:
嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ! 異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない!(To call oneself by the name Kanon is something that only that very person can do! Any different person is unable to call him/herself that!)

The person who can call itself Kanon can exist even though that which makes out Kanon does not exist anymore. It is not about "killing a personality to be able to kill a person" or any psychological shennenigans. It's about discarding that which gives that "character" a reason to exist and therefore discarding the character in itself. It's not that Shannon/Kanon death -> George/Jessica death or George/Jessica death -> Shannon/Kanon death it is more of a metaphorical reaction towards certain events. To be able to kill either Jessica or George she needs to muster up a certain amount of coldness and has to kill off a certain amount of feelings...and because both those characters were designed to gain love that a previous character couldn't they literally die if that purpose is defeated.

This actually leaves some possible solutions to the murders of George and Jessica in EP4:
  1. George and Jessica were "the 2nd twilight" (the 7th and 8th victim)
  2. George and Jessica were somewhere among the final victims (beyond victim no.9)

In case (1) Yasu was likely ot responsible for their death. A likely possibility is that they actually did kill each other in a fight over the heritage, the headship, money and Yasu. Maybe George attacked Jessica, like he did with Gaap, and she defended herself, like she did against Ronove. She ended up killing him and commited suicide (like her option of choice insinuated) and thus destroyed the purpose of Shannon and Kanon. When she found out, she broke.

In case (2) there are two options. Either somebody else killed them and Yasu only found out after he let Kyrie and the others out or Yasu actually killed them after the situation had put enough stress on her that she cast them away. In George's case that is not that much unexpectable, as she always described her love for him as a result of him being kind...which is something he actually isn't.

What I want to underline is, what LyricalAura also said, that Shannon and Kanon are more than mere costumes that Yasu wears but they are not (at least not for me) personalities that completely control the action of a host-body.
They are more like modes in an operating system, geared for individual situations...and once they aren't useful anymore they are deleted for the sake of system performance. There is always a central operating system (Yasu), but she tries to match her performance based on what she is processing. That is love for George = Shannon, love for Battler = Beatrice, venting her anger = ghost legend Beatrice, etc.
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Old 2011-09-26, 12:56   Link #24590
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I think you've got this all sideways. "Shannon" and "Kanon" aren't the clothes Yasu wears, they're parts of herself that reflect her love for George and Jessica. Resolving to kill one of them would mean throwing away that part of herself. This isn't something shallow like saying "Okay, I won't ever dress up as Shannon again. Let's go shoot George in the face." Rather, so long as she held onto that love, she wouldn't be able to bring herself to kill them.

Yasu can dress up in Shannon's clothes all she wants, but "Yasu in Shannon's clothes who doesn't love George" is not Shannon. "Yasu who loves George" is Shannon.
Yea, and...conquering those feelings has no causal relationship to killing off the "Kanon" and "Shannon" characters in the views of everyone else on Rokkenjima. Which was my point. Which you seem to have missed.

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Deciding to abandon her love for them != deciding to kill them or deciding that she hates them, though. The implication doesn't go both ways.
You're right. But then I don't think Yasu attempted to kill anyone so...I never said that.

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Are you sure you should be swallowing fantasy depictions whole like that? Gohda and Kumasawa were the seventh and eighth victims.
Fantasy scenes exist to help us more than mislead us. Even if we conceded this, there's no evidence for it and it still wouldn't create a consistent pattern.

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On the morning of October 5th, while Natsuhi was receiving the third call from the Man From 19 Years Ago, some people knocked on her bedroom door. Do you remember who they were...?
Yes. Doesn't prove anything yet, because Erika didn't confirm that Shannon and Kanon were different people. The Red Truth doesn't help either because it treated them as separate entities in Beato's games, too.

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Battler rigged the whole game for the express purpose of having Erika hijack it. Why should he need to prepare a different culprit?
"Ohshi, Erika didn't take the bait. What do I do now?"

I can't believe Battler didn't create multiple opportunities in a completely constructed game incase Erika didn't fall for the first Logic Error attempt.
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Old 2011-09-26, 12:57   Link #24591
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Building the guesthouse is an awful expensive way to cover up getting a survey. It would be much easier to have the survey done, then state that the island wasn't suitable for his planned resort.

Also, Genji had the gold exchanged for Yasu.
The survey wasn't actually covered up either, as the siblings were the one who told Krauss they knew about it. What I meant to say was that the checking of the explosives (and I bet there was work to expand it or get engineers/demolitionists to ensure that it will destroy the island) was the real thing that was covered up.

I don't think it's possible for Yasu to personally check the explosives. So I would think she used the excuse of the hotel and the survey as cover to get some more professional people to check on it. Like, mercenaries.

I don't remember the story saying Genji exchanged it, but that could be true. What I do remember is that Krauss seems to be the only one who had black market contacts (as no one else offered to exchange the gold) in EP7. For getting people who can check explosives would require... rather shady contacts. I'm not sure how Genji can do either, exchange the gold or get a hold of mercs, but it could be plausible assuming he did still have his Taiwan contacts?


Even if none of this is true, a survey of the island was done, purportedly by Krauss. This is what it boils down to. And there's no way for this to be done without:
1. Krauss knowing he is not the master of the island as the survey would have been done without the results going to him.
2. If the results did go to him, then he would know about the underground base, etc, necessitating Yasu and the others needing to control him. Otherwise it'd be.. "Hey look at all the gold here! It's all mine."

EDIT: Oh and the survey would've found Kuwadorian too.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-09-26 at 13:13.
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Old 2011-09-26, 13:01   Link #24592
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Thank you for bringing that up. We even have exactly that situation.
In EP2 we encounter Kanon who is not Kanon. Somebody who "wears Kanon's appearance" appears in front of people and threatens them with things that are definitely not Kanon's way of thinking. Yet Kanon is a name that can only be used by the person who owns the name Kanon.
Especially interesting is the way it is said again:
嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ! 異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない!(To call oneself by the name Kanon is something that only that very person can do! Any different person is unable to call him/herself that!)
Thank you for reminding me of this red. I kind of discarded it to the "solved bin" at some point, but looking at some reds in more contexts might be useful.

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What I want to underline is, what LyricalAura also said, that Shannon and Kanon are more than mere costumes that Yasu wears but they are not (at least not for me) personalities that completely control the action of a host-body.
They are more like modes in an operating system, geared for individual situations...and once they aren't useful anymore they are deleted for the sake of system performance. There is always a central operating system (Yasu), but she tries to match her performance based on what she is processing. That is love for George = Shannon, love for Battler = Beatrice, venting her anger = ghost legend Beatrice, etc.
Did you intentionally use the software comparison that Ryukishi used in his interview with KEIYA, or was that accidental? Well your elaborated example makes it a little easier to believe Ryukishi doesn't actually try to imply that Yasu has multiple personalities. I'm also one of those who don't believe in that. We just have to hope Ryukishi doesn't believe in it before he gives more answers, or like AuraTwilight, screw the author.
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Old 2011-09-26, 13:19   Link #24593
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My problem with that is it's still cheating.

"I can delete it, thus making it dead. Oh but I can restore it at any time if necessary. Also I didn't actually do anything when I deleted it, so no one but me even would know the difference in the first place."

Fuck that. That's not even dirty pool. That's climbing up on the table and taking a dump on the cue ball.
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Old 2011-09-26, 13:36   Link #24594
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Even if none of this is true, a survey of the island was done, purportedly by Krauss. This is what it boils down to. And there's no way for this to be done without:
1. Krauss knowing he is not the master of the island as the survey would have been done without the results going to him.
2. If the results did go to him, then he would know about the underground base, etc, necessitating Yasu and the others needing to control him. Otherwise it'd be.. "Hey look at all the gold here! It's all mine."

EDIT: Oh and the survey would've found Kuwadorian too.
The survey, and Krauss claiming one was undertaken, probably never happened. It's only mentioned once and in tandem with him revealing a bar of gold we know he doesn't have. The whole thing's a fantasy scene, imo.
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Old 2011-09-26, 13:48   Link #24595
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Yea, and...conquering those feelings has no causal relationship to killing off the "Kanon" and "Shannon" characters in the views of everyone else on Rokkenjima. Which was my point. Which you seem to have missed.
It does have a causal relationship to being able to state Shannon and Kanon's deaths in red. Whether she continues appearing to other people as Shannon or Kanon is irrelevant to the argument. See "Fake Kanon" in EP2 and the whole end of EP3 for starters.

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You're right. But then I don't think Yasu attempted to kill anyone so...I never said that.
That's nice, but we're not talking about R-Prime, so...?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Fantasy scenes exist to help us more than mislead us. Even if we conceded this, there's no evidence for it and it still wouldn't create a consistent pattern.
We don't have any idea when Gohda and Kumasawa died, not even from a fantasy depiction. They got killed in an elaborate locked room setup, but... When did Yasu do that, exactly?

If it was late in the evening, it looks like Yasu eventually gave up on even staking the victims properly. Maybe there was a second killer with a different weapon running around, maybe not, but if she couldn't be bothered to finish the stakings, it seems kind of dubious that she'd go to the trouble of setting up a proper locked room at that point. On the other hand, it became possible to construct that locked room way earlier, at the moment Gohda and Kumasawa were sealed inside and left alone. That was even before George and Jessica had their fantasy duels.

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Yes. Doesn't prove anything yet, because Erika didn't confirm that Shannon and Kanon were different people. The Red Truth doesn't help either because it treated them as separate entities in Beato's games, too.
Who cares what Erika confirmed? In that scene, Natsuhi heard Kanon speak to her from the hallway while she was on the phone with the Man From 19 Years Ago. It is impossible for Kanon to be in the hallway and on the phone at the same time.

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"Ohshi, Erika didn't take the bait. What do I do now?"

I can't believe Battler didn't create multiple opportunities in a completely constructed game incase Erika didn't fall for the first Logic Error attempt.
I imagine he did, but it would be awfully crude for them to use Yasu as a culprit after showing Shannon and Kanon killing people in fantasy scenes, wouldn't it?
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Old 2011-09-26, 14:09   Link #24596
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It does have a causal relationship to being able to state Shannon and Kanon's deaths in red. Whether she continues appearing to other people as Shannon or Kanon is irrelevant to the argument. See "Fake Kanon" in EP2 and the whole end of EP3 for starters.
Yea, and as Renall explained, it's kind of bullshit. Killing the characters of Kanon and Shannon has no relation to her internal emotional state because she can do either or in any order she pleases, and "deleting" a character doesn't magically erase parts of her personality.

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That's nice, but we're not talking about R-Prime, so...?
I reiterate. I don't think Yasu killed anyone.

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We don't have any idea when Gohda and Kumasawa died, not even from a fantasy depiction. They got killed in an elaborate locked room setup, but... When did Yasu do that, exactly?
Well, Yasu is fairly consistent about using the Twilights to mark when people die, disregarding Shkanon trickery and people faking their deaths and the like. Maybe they were killed as part of Maria's test, who knows? But it would've fucked up her magic narrative if someone poked in the shed before the Twilights were completed and saw a couple of 9th Twilight deaths.

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If it was late in the evening, it looks like Yasu eventually gave up on even staking the victims properly. Maybe there was a second killer with a different weapon running around, maybe not, but if she couldn't be bothered to finish the stakings, it seems kind of dubious that she'd go to the trouble of setting up a proper locked room at that point. On the other hand, it became possible to construct that locked room way earlier, at the moment Gohda and Kumasawa were sealed inside and left alone. That was even before George and Jessica had their fantasy duels.
You're absolutely right. But EP4 is so sparse on reliable information that I personally choose, as I usually do, to rely on the symbolism of the fantasy scenes so we have SOMETHING to work with besides baseless speculation supported by absolutely nothing but circlejerking with our egos/dicks.

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Who cares what Erika confirmed? In that scene, Natsuhi heard Kanon speak to her from the hallway while she was on the phone with the Man From 19 Years Ago. It is impossible for Kanon to be in the hallway and on the phone at the same time.
AND? Who says the Man From 19 Years Ago speaking to Natsuhi is Yasu? It could be someone who knows about Yasu's secret who is doing this to get at Natsuhi for whatever reason. I'm liable to think so because Yasu is consistently portrayed as non-malicious.

Hell, maybe Battler's doing it to avenge his dickgirl childhood girlfriend or something. He seems to be in on the murders anyway.

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I imagine he did, but it would be awfully crude for them to use Yasu as a culprit after showing Shannon and Kanon killing people in fantasy scenes, wouldn't it?
He only has to demonstrate that he understands Beato's games. Solvability and difficulty are completely unnecessary. On that same note, demonstrating his understanding pretty much requires he uses Shkanon, which he uses to get out of the Logic Error and thus still wins the Game, sure, but what if Erika never pushed him into a logic error?
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Old 2011-09-26, 14:17   Link #24597
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
But it was "Shannon" who killed George in EP4 right? And that Shannon is the corpse who shot herself in the head. But going by what you say, Wanderer, she shouldn't be able to kill George. So is it that Shannon died before George? So the one who shot herself in the head was... the 19th person?

Technically George died before Shannon/Yasu in Ep 2 as well... and it was Shannon/Yasu who likely killed him. Unless he too committed suicide.
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Old 2011-09-26, 14:21   Link #24598
haguruma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, and as Renall explained, it's kind of bullshit. Killing the characters of Kanon and Shannon has no relation to her internal emotional state because she can do either or in any order she pleases, and "deleting" a character doesn't magically erase parts of her personality.
And that I think is a misunderstanding that is going on here.
Shannon or Kanon dying is inherently the same as making an emotional decision based on an internal struggle. Shannon and/or Kanon being killed by Beatrice is a metaphor for Yasu actually deciding something and that is not ditching the role, it is ditching the thing that fills the role with humanity. That is what the whole "being human" meshugas is about...they become human by experiencing, but when you take that thing away you basically discard the humanity from those characters reverting them back to mere furniture as was done with Kanon in EP2.

For example George's death upset her so much that she actually commited suicide, while Jessica's death was possible even though it hurt her...it merely returned Kanon to that which he is without that "characterization", something void.

It is not deleting the character which erases parts of her personality, it is giving up on certain things or casting them away which makes the program, which is the character, obsolete.
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Old 2011-09-26, 14:23   Link #24599
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The survey, and Krauss claiming one was undertaken, probably never happened. It's only mentioned once and in tandem with him revealing a bar of gold we know he doesn't have. The whole thing's a fantasy scene, imo.
I'm not sure it's useful to think of things as 'fantasy scene' or not. I'm not sure that that's how the narrative actually functions. I think it's was some kind of self-defense mechanism the fans created when they were presented with what appeared to be magic in EP2 and it wasn't meant to be how the Umineko story was to be viewed. It allowed the fans to incorrectly throw away entire scenes as 'not real' without thinking.

Maybe you're talking about how there's some kind of lie involved, right? But Umineko scenes that lie tends to still tell us something about the story or characters. Some of them, despite the magic, still retain the same beginning and ending as a non-magic explanation.


This need to be thought of in terms of what Beatrice-Yasu was trying to reveal in EP1 and 2; the sibling arguments, Krauss showing Natsuhi the gold. Of course, Rokkenjima Prime probably never happened in that way specifically, but she wrote those scenes as a reveal to us of the background. It definitely tells us what she thinks Krauss and the various siblings know.

I mean, there's no particular magic in these scenes and if we dismiss them arbitrarily... well... what's to prevent dismissal of some, most or all of the other scenes without magic in them, leaving us with a totally swiss-cheesed story? (If we dismiss the magic scenes too, then we'd basically have an empty book.)


By the way, I want to point out that these siblings are Beatrice's characters. I would doubt that she actually knew all the siblings to such a high degree and possibly took liberties with their characters. For example, Kyrie could have been a total airhead who liked to wear summer dresses and not think too much about things! Ok, maybe not. But Tooya-Battler's writing of a Happy-Happy Kinzo in EP8, I think, drives home this point; that the people themselves could've been different than they were portrayed in the media. The flip side to this is that the characters (and not the Prime versions) are fully under the control of the authors. What they know and think need to be expressed by the authors.
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Old 2011-09-26, 14:24   Link #24600
rogerpepitone
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Why build the guesthouse, get everything almost ready, and then not open it? In-story, the reason given was the Krauss didn't have the money to do it. Why didn't Krauss do something along the lines of agree to exchange the gold,
1) his share being 10%, and using that money the open the hotel?
2) on the condition that Yasu agree to finance the opening of the hotel?
3) then ask Yasu to support the hotel the way he'd asked Kinzo in the past?

Why does Krauss conceal Kinzo's death? In-story, he does it because the books aren't in order, so he can't survive the investigation that would normally ensue. If he were helping Yasu liquidate the gold, why didn't he:
1) his share be 10%, and use that money to buy back title to the island, etc.?
2) support Yasu as epitaph-solver and sole heir to Kinzo, on the condition that Yasu ignore the problems with the finances. (With Yasu as sole heir, none of the other sibs have any authority to investigate the finances.)
3) have himself publicly solve the epitaph, so Krauss is sole heir on paper, but Yasu really controls everything. (Again, none of the other sibs have cause to investigate.)
4) agree to let Kanon marry Jessica, on the condition that Jessica publicly solves the epitaph and is sole heir.

As for the survey, how about
1) Kinzo had bought out the nearest surveying companies some time ago
or
2) When he heard Krauss was surveying the island, Kinzo paid off its head
and told them to falsify the reports around Kuwadorian.
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