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Old 2011-09-27, 10:51   Link #24641
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I personally like the idea because you can get the people to actually say this as part of the game to trick and have fun with Battler. The culprit then carries out the crimes according to the original design.

e- Renall, what it gets you is some leeway to carry out the scenes. Having the coordination to hold up 2 people in 2 different areas to coerce them to say lies has a chance of not going the way you expect. Kyrie and Jessica both felt like they where going to die, so its easy to think "This bastard is going to kill me!" and tell Battler, "Its X, Run!"

Also, for the most part, I dont like the idea of duress being used. That and dragging corpses around. Its easier to move people when they themselves do it for you, its easier to set up a party in a church when everyone pitches in, its easier for people to lie if they think its a joke.
It still seems, you know, awfully mean to Battler. And again, you have to bear in mind how little time anybody would've had. Battler finds most (but not all!) of the bodies around midnight or so (the rest after 6am, so it's possible there's shenanigans), and as I recall the Kinzo conference starts around 10pm. Basically, no matter what you do, you're on an exceedingly tight schedule. Of course this is probably a point in favor of collusion (at least at first), but even then with all the killing and recording and meeting Battler outside and whatnot, you're talking a very busy couple of hours.
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Old 2011-09-27, 11:01   Link #24642
Cao Ni Ma
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The game cuts off after that anyways, for all we know Jessica is dead in the corner of a room, having tripped face first on a pointy table. Seriously, lets say Eva was actually a murderer in this case, do you think Jessica could have hidden somewhere that Eva couldn't reach?

It couldnt have been far, it was a few steps from what I remember. If it was far enough to elude her then chances are Eva would return to see George's fat ass not crushing Shannon and would certainly find it suspicious.
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Old 2011-09-27, 11:52   Link #24643
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It still seems, you know, awfully mean to Battler. And again, you have to bear in mind how little time anybody would've had. Battler finds most (but not all!) of the bodies around midnight or so (the rest after 6am, so it's possible there's shenanigans), and as I recall the Kinzo conference starts around 10pm. Basically, no matter what you do, you're on an exceedingly tight schedule. Of course this is probably a point in favor of collusion (at least at first), but even then with all the killing and recording and meeting Battler outside and whatnot, you're talking a very busy couple of hours.
Timeline is insane regardless of possible shenanigans. Lets say she actually was coercing Kyrie, she'd have to dress like that if she wasnt already dressed that way. She'd have to call Maria, continue the conversation with Battler, get ready to poison Maria, do the whole balcony thing with Battler. In between that murder both Kumasawa and Gohda.

It doesn't fit, then again this seems to be a game where time and space can be circumvented and scenes happen instantly in a vacuum.
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Old 2011-09-27, 13:02   Link #24644
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Coercion might work to get a tape recorded, but collusion? Hmm...

Spoiler:


Somehow, I don't think it would work
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Old 2011-09-27, 13:26   Link #24645
LyricalAura
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Regarding shenanigans:

- Kyrie's call came immediately after Jessica's.
- Beato's call came immediately after Kyrie's.
- Kyrie and Jessica were found on opposite ends of the house.
- Battler got the impression that someone else was in the room with Beato during her call.

From a logistics standpoint, the easiest way to do this would be to have everybody in the same room calling from the same phone one after the other. Then they could split up to go to their respective rooms afterward. Bonus effect: everyone in the background gets to snicker at Battler freaking out.

You could instead have Jessica call Kyrie when she's finished to let her know it's her turn, and then Kyrie could call Beato (or Beato could be in the same room as Kyrie and reuse that phone), but that seems excessively complicated.
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Old 2011-09-27, 13:41   Link #24646
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Regarding shenanigans:

- Kyrie's call came immediately after Jessica's.
- Beato's call came immediately after Kyrie's.
- Kyrie and Jessica were found on opposite ends of the house.
- Battler got the impression that someone else was in the room with Beato during her call.

From a logistics standpoint, the easiest way to do this would be to have everybody in the same room calling from the same phone one after the other. Then they could split up to go to their respective rooms afterward. Bonus effect: everyone in the background gets to snicker at Battler freaking out.

You could instead have Jessica call Kyrie when she's finished to let her know it's her turn, and then Kyrie could call Beato (or Beato could be in the same room as Kyrie and reuse that phone), but that seems excessively complicated.
Where does all the death come in?
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Old 2011-09-27, 13:51   Link #24647
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Coercion might work to get a tape recorded, but collusion? Hmm...

Spoiler:


Somehow, I don't think it would work
Nice passive aggressive vent you got there bro!

Its about as crazy as hoping your boyfriend and Battler dont go looking for your corpse inside a shed. Yasu had countermeasures prepared for that, it was Hideyoshi. If something like the taped calls happened then such preparations where taken as well, as I went in details about their structure and how vague they where.

Then again this

Quote:
Regarding shenanigans:

- Kyrie's call came immediately after Jessica's.
- Beato's call came immediately after Kyrie's.
- Kyrie and Jessica were found on opposite ends of the house.
- Battler got the impression that someone else was in the room with Beato during her call.

From a logistics standpoint, the easiest way to do this would be to have everybody in the same room calling from the same phone one after the other. Then they could split up to go to their respective rooms afterward. Bonus effect: everyone in the background gets to snicker at Battler freaking out.

You could instead have Jessica call Kyrie when she's finished to let her know it's her turn, and then Kyrie could call Beato (or Beato could be in the same room as Kyrie and reuse that phone), but that seems excessively complicated.
Works just as well, maybe even better, at explaining what could have happened using what has been established in the story. The biggest gripe you seem to have is that people just wouldn't decide to play along with Yasu. Well apparently a lot of people played around with her under more sinister conditions. EP1 had Hideyoshi, Eva. EP2 had Rosa and Gohda. EP4 had Kyrie and Jessica. EP5 & 6 had all of the first twilight.

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Where does all the death come in?
Somewhere between the call and 6am
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Old 2011-09-27, 14:06   Link #24648
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As for getting people to record their lines, how about, before the first phone call (from the jail cell), "This has to come off right. We'd better practice our lines a few times first." Record the lines and play them back immediately. Everybody cracks up about some goof. By the time they're recording Kyrie's final phone call, nobody notices the tape recorder any more.

Definition: An innocent accomplice is a person who acts falsely to help the killer, but doesn't realize that murder is involved.

My real problem is that most of the statements made were things that Battler would be unable to verify until after his test was over. (Anything inside; also, the locations of Krauss, Shannon, and Nanjo's bodies would require him to go out of the way, so he'd be unlikely to verify it.) An innocent accomplice could make those statements and believe them credible to Battler.

The big exception is Jessica's claim about George's death. Why didn't she point out "Battler's going through the arbor on the way here. Won't he notice the absence of a dead George?"
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Old 2011-09-27, 14:09   Link #24649
Cao Ni Ma
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Small question, Im rereading a certain scene and something stood out. How long do bubbles last on the open? Am I just reading this wrong? "Traces of Bubbles", are they dried already or something?
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:02   Link #24650
LyricalAura
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Can things like this really be predicted ahead of time?
Quote:
Battler: "R, run, Kyrie-san...!! Run awaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"
Kyrie: "Where to?"

Battler: "......I can't, ......believe it............Even if I hear, ......something like that coming from your mouth, ......I can't believe it........."
Kyrie: "I understand. I understand why you can't believe. ......So, that's why I can give this advice. Believe."
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:06   Link #24651
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Small question, Im rereading a certain scene and something stood out. How long do bubbles last on the open? Am I just reading this wrong? "Traces of Bubbles", are they dried already or something?
This is a picture of a dog frothing at the mouth, but it might be a good reference for what Battler was talking about:

Spoiler for Frothing (large):
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:11   Link #24652
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Can things like this really be predicted ahead of time?
Mentioned in one of my previous posts. The lines preceding Battler 's " Run!" response where made to panic him, of course he's gonna reply with something like " Get away from there" or "Hide!" or "Run!" all of which can be answered with "Where to?"

And the lines preceding Battler's breakdown where all about magical fantasy thing that shouldn't be possible. So Battler will almost certainly respond with " This is impossible" "Thats unbelievable" "You're lying". All of which can be answered with Kyrie's response.
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:15   Link #24653
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
This is a picture of a dog frothing at the mouth, but it might be a good reference for what Battler was talking about:

Spoiler for Frothing (large):
I understand this, the issue is the time gap. Battler analyzes Maria's corpse at around 6am. He spots it the day before, but he doesnt perform a detailed check till he came back from his raged induced insomnia fest. Spit would eventually dry itself fairly quickly so why is he still capable of detecting the bubbles more than 6 hours after her death?
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:29   Link #24654
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Nice passive aggressive vent you got there bro!
Haha, it is a response to your position, but I'm not trying to be mean-spirited. I apologize if it came off that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Its about as crazy as hoping your boyfriend and Battler dont go looking for your corpse inside a shed. Yasu had countermeasures prepared for that, it was Hideyoshi. If something like the taped calls happened then such preparations where taken as well, as I went in details about their structure and how vague they where.
While the logistics behind pulling off the voice recording idea are highly questionable, that's not even the point I'm trying to make; I'm saying a voice recording is superfluous. Getting Kyrie to record her voice or getting her to do it live essentially require the same conditions, except Kyrie doing it live is just way less complicated and just plain better.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Works just as well, maybe even better, at explaining what could have happened using what has been established in the story.
I wouldn't disagree except for the fact that it completely ignores the "Silent corpses" part of the big reveal by Will. In fact, LyricalTwilight's rundown seems more like an argument for a single caller than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The biggest gripe you seem to have is that people just wouldn't decide to play along with Yasu. Well apparently a lot of people played around with her under more sinister conditions. EP1 had Hideyoshi, Eva. EP2 had Rosa and Gohda. EP4 had Kyrie and Jessica. EP5 & 6 had all of the first twilight.
Nah, you got me wrong. My gripes have nothing to do with people being willing to cooperate with Yasu; they are the ones listed above.

EP4 had at the very least Gohda and Kumasawa as collaborators, but I think not Kyrie (at least not with regards to the last phone call, anyway). I'm not so sure about Jessica, though. Krauss maybe. And of course Nanjo and Genji are also suspicious as usual.
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Old 2011-09-27, 15:47   Link #24655
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I guess we just disagree in that element. I think the tape method in terms of mystery shenanigans is more ideal and feels less like cheating in Umineko than having Yasu pull successful mimicry twice in rapid succession on the same person. ^^

Then again I also think that Yasu pulling off successful possum twice in EP3 was far fetched and RK07 played it straight sooo...!
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Old 2011-09-27, 16:51   Link #24656
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Voice mimicry vs trickery

In Umineko we aren't given clues about someone being capable of voice mimicry.
Lambda talks about everyone being able to change the voice tone so as to sound a different person but no one is mentioned to be able to mimicry someone else's voice.

However real life prove you don't really need to possess this skill to trick someone else.

Years ago people organized a fraud in which one of them would show in front of you saying he was your son/daughter/brother/sister/father/mother's friend and that your relatice had sent him to you because he needed you to lend him some money.

Of course no one would believe a random stranger over this so he would invite you to phone to your relative to check if this was true.

You'll do but due to some electronical trick your phone call wouldn't reach your relative but that guy's accomplice who would fake being your relative, confirm the guy's story and urge you to hand him the money because he's really in need and you're the only one who can help him. Otherwise he'll fail to make a business/pay something/insert random excuse here.

Now, the accomplice wouldn't even try to mimicry the victim's relative voice but the victim of the fraud would usually be so persuaded he had talked with his relative they rarely would notice the different voice or the different way to talk, unless it was really, really marked (some realized they were tricked due to their relative having normally a really thick accent or some original way to speak).

So in Ep 5

Someone likely phoned to Natsuhi using a different voice tone.
It was a pretty neutral one because Natsuhi can't get an idea of with whom she's talking.

Quote:
The voice certainly did sound like that of a young man.

But it's a bit hard to figure out much about a person just by their voice over the phone...

It sounded like a young man, but it might actually be a middle school-aged boy or an adult man whose voice still hadn't deepened.

No wait, it might be too soon even to be sure that this is a male.

However, the one thing which was certain......, was that she had no clue who this person, who spoke so casually with her, was...
In the end Natsuhi can't tell if the person is male or female or his age, though she seems to judge him young.

I wonder if Natsuhi's first impression about the speaker being a man is due to how the sentence was in Japanese (I've been told males and females have different types of speech). However by the end of the call Natsuhi is scared to death but likely didn't spend enough time on the phone to be able to recognize the voice that spoke to her with certainity.

After this things get really stressful for her so if someone else were to tell her he/she is the one who called her previously, as long as his manner to speak and tone weren't completely different, she would easily fall for it.

On the other side, by the time of the third phonecall, she would be so upset she might fail to realize she didn't hear Kanon's voice, just Gohda's here:

Quote:
"......Madam, are you there? Good morning...!"
"It's Gohda and Kanon! Madam, please wake up...!"
So it's theoretically possible that either Kanon was at the phone and joined Gohda only after the phonecall or that someone else played the role of the man from 19 years ago while Kanon was in front of the door.

(It's also possible the man from 19 years ago was someone else or existed only in Natsuhi's mind... if I'm not wrong Lambda refused to confirm the first phone call as real... however the following phone calls gave Natsuhi precise details on what to do that caused her to get herself in trouble and knowledge Krauss had been kidnapped so I'm not going to believe the calls never took place...)

Now Ep 4.

Could people be tricked on the phone as well?

Let's see. In the first call we have:

Krauss talking with Gohda and Jessica
Kirye talking with Battler
Shannon talking with George
Kanon talking with Jessica
Nanjo talking with Kumasawa.


In the second call we have:

Kirye talking with Geroge, Battler and Jessica

In the third call we have:

Shannon talking with Maria and George

In the forth call we have:

Jessica talking with Battler

In the fifth call we have:

Kirye talking with Battler

In the sixth call we have:

Beatrice talking with Maria and Battler.

So basically Krauss and Nanjo' voices were heard only in the first call by someone and Battler heard through the phone only Kirye and Jessica.

Would Jessica being tricked into thinking her father was on the phone? If the one tricking her was an adult male maybe... but I think it would be harder with Yasu trying to fake Krauss' voice. There's likely too much difference between the two voices.

Would Battler be tricked into thinking Jessica was on the phone when in truth it was someone else? It's possible he would be tricked.

Like Natsuhi before, he's not in a calm state, for six years he hadn't seen Jessica and now he had spent less than a day with her so it's possible he hadn't memorized her voice well yet. If the person speaking were to use her same manner to speak he might have been tricked.

It would be hard to trick him with Kirye as he likely knows her voice and manner to speak better than Yasu, although he's definitely very upset and he's accepting that Kirye is saying very OOC things.

So in Ep 4 is theoretically possible to trick Battler with 'fake voices'.

However in Ep 4 it'll be a lot more simple to persuade the others it's a game (or promise them the gold or pretend it's Kinzo that's asking them to play this game) and have them play the role of accomplices. It'll also help with moving corpses around.

Same thing with the tapes.

Even if it might be possible to record a tape predicting the other's response and trick Jessica & Kirye to do it I think the chances it'll work are too low.

Maybe Yasu would risk it in Ep 5 if she really had to persuade Natsuhi she's not behind the phone calls, because it's possible that Natsuhi knows that Shannon and Kanon are the same person and, due to the season trick, she might be aware she might have attracted Natsuhi's suspicions so it would be useful not to let Natsuhi know she's behind the phone calls, but for Ep 4 she definitely had better ways to trick Battler.
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Old 2011-09-27, 17:21   Link #24657
jjblue1
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All times mentioned during the trial were in X:00 format, so they were probably all estimated times. Also if they weren't estimated then there would be a logic error with Rosa being in two places at the same time. (Oh wait! There must be multiple people named Rosa! Of course!)
Generally yes. However the red truths were said as such:
  • At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.
  • .........To go even further, at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive.

Basically Lambda spoke twice and the second time she spoke she gave the red truth confirming Natsuhi, Krauss and Genji's position and the one confirming the people in the dining hall. Sure, red truth can trick people but here it really seem to really imply Natsuhi & Co being in the corridor at the same time in which the others were in the dining room.
Also the narrative not only says it's midnight but said the large clock (in the dining room) rang out 24:00 as if to imply that it's really exactly 24:00 not more or less 24:00.

So, while I agree it's possible that the 24:00 used in regard to the cousins means more or less around 24:00, everything in Ep 5 seems to imply that while Natsuhi and Co were in the corridor the others were in the dining room and everything was taking place at 24:00.

And anyway Natsuhi was informed about the call while she was in the corridor with Krauss. He couldn't be watching the others making the call and, at the same time, being in the corridor with Natsuhi.

As I said at best he returned in the dining room while the call was taking place but he couldn't be there when it started.
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Old 2011-09-27, 20:16   Link #24658
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And anyway Natsuhi was informed about the call while she was in the corridor with Krauss. He couldn't be watching the others making the call and, at the same time, being in the corridor with Natsuhi.

As I said at best he returned in the dining room while the call was taking place but he couldn't be there when it started.
Note that Natsuhi didn't actually start talking on the phone until after she had gone to her room AND Genji had returned to the servants' room and transferred the call. In the absence of any reason to believe that Krauss took a side trip after that group broke up, he should have arrived in the dining room at roughly the same time as Natsuhi's phone started ringing, or possibly even before.
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Old 2011-09-27, 21:00   Link #24659
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Random question, but in the red truth, .........To go even further, at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive., was there any real need for "Genji was also alive."?

I would take the previous sentence to mean that Genji was alive. It's probably nothing, but it's always bothered me how it felt kind of tagged on the end, there. Wa there a need for clarification that I had missed? <_<
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Old 2011-09-27, 21:29   Link #24660
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'Kay, so I've reviewed some of the stuff in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I guess we just disagree in that element. I think the tape method in terms of mystery shenanigans is more ideal and feels less like cheating in Umineko than having Yasu pull successful mimicry twice in rapid succession on the same person. ^^

Then again I also think that Yasu pulling off successful possum twice in EP3 was far fetched and RK07 played it straight sooo...!
In the first place I think that voice recording is a valid trick. There's even an example in episode 7 with that probably is a recording of Maria's voice. Also upon review I acknowledge that everything Kyrie says does sound like it could be a recording (but only her last call). However, I don't see any advantage in using it over a live phone call from a live Kyrie. In fact I see two big disadvantages: 1) The risk Battler might figure out it's a recording 2) Recording earlier means that Yasu has committed to the crime scenes matching to a certain narrative that much earlier.

If I could get even one sensible theory that address these issues as well as somehow make sense in the context of Willard's big reveal ("Silent corpses adorned with fiction"), I could change my mind on the whole vocal impression deal.

I also noticed something really interesting about Jessica's phone call with Battler:

"They really aren't opponents you can fight with that hat-stand spear you're so proud of."

So even supposing Jessica's voice was recorded, it could only have been done at some point after she left the guest house. We're talking about a 30-minute or so window. On the other hand, if it was vocal mimicry then Yasu would've had to learn about the hat-stand somehow, which is possible, but requires some theorizing.

Jessica is free from the "Silent Corpses" thing, but from a thematic angle Jessica was dead before her phone call with Battler anyway. Even Ronove said so.

Here's a little timeline.

11:00 (exactly?) Phone call from Krauss about locking Gohda and Kumasawa
-The two are locked inside
-Phone call from Kyrie about explaining tests
11:08 Phone call from Shannon about George's test
11:12 Jessica arrives at her room
-Jessica and George's tests (fiction)
-Escape from Kuwadorian (fiction)
-Phone call from Jessica
-Phone call from Kyrie
11:47 Phone call from Beatrice

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Let's see. In the first call we have:

Krauss talking with Gohda and Jessica
Kirye talking with Battler
Shannon talking with George
Kanon talking with Jessica
Nanjo talking with Kumasawa.
Yes. Let's reduce the complications here. Gohda and Kumasawa are liars, so we can just scratch anything about who they may have spoken to. Also, Kanon and Shannon automatically are "in on it" in any Yasu scenario so the simplified version of this formula is:

Krauss talking with Jessica
Kyrie talking with Battler


I would like to point out how the call starts: The phone rings and Gohda picks up the phone exclaiming surprise that Krauss is on the other end. So Jessica would start to expect to hear Krauss. Even if his voice sounded a little off, she may just unconsciously brush it off. Of course, when Battler gets his turn with Kyrie, he has the same expectations.

Still, what Krauss says is never in any way strange in the hypothetical context of him being directly threatened, so *shrug*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Would Jessica being tricked into thinking her father was on the phone? If the one tricking her was an adult male maybe... but I think it would be harder with Yasu trying to fake Krauss' voice. There's likely too much difference between the two voices.
Yeah. Between Krauss, Jessica, and Kyrie, this is by far the most difficult (hypothetical) voice imitation to swallow. We could suppose Jessica lied about talking to him for some reason or that it's the real Krauss and he was under duress. The "Kinzo" they were negotiating with could just be Yasu with a winchester.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In the second call we have:

Kirye talking with Geroge, Battler and Jessica
You missed a call. The second call was Krauss with instructions that there would be a test and to lock up Gohda and Kumasawa. The explanation of how the heir test would actually work was the third call.
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