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Old 2011-09-30, 22:13   Link #24741
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Edit: Heh even simpler without even a murder.
Ensure that a room is empty and that there's only one way to leave it.
Witness Shannon entering it and that none others enters it.
Witness that Kanon leaves it and none others.
Enter the room and find it completely empty.
Yeah, although that's just a little too obvious. It's possible to use that as the core of the solution and construct misdirection around it though. That's kind of the problem with the existing puzzles in the story: None of them really require this at the core. It could be either Shannon or Kanon doing this or that and it largely doesn't matter who it is, particularly when somebody's going to turn up dead anyway (it's not like they can tell anybody).

EDIT: Actually why didn't I think of that? The victim leaves behind some kind of clue as to their killer, pointing at Shannon as the killer, but Shannon couldn't possibly have committed the murder for whatever alibi reason. Kanon, however, could have, but it's dismissed because the victim didn't incriminate Kanon.
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Old 2011-09-30, 22:27   Link #24742
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How about this:
Kanon and Jessica are clearly seen entering an empty room.
They close and lock the door.
Jessica screams.
People gather around. It takes a little while, but they break in.
They pour in. Jessica is lying dead on the floor; Kanon is nowhere to be seen.
During that time, Hideyoshi stayed outside and testifies that nobody left the room.
At that point, only Battler, George, Eva, Rosa, Maria, Shannon, and dead Jessica are in the room.
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Old 2011-09-30, 22:59   Link #24743
ErenselTheJester
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The only way a scenario can point towards Shkanon is if said scenario contained evidence pointing towards the possibility of disguise. Using Usagi's scenario, let's look inside the room and instead of it being completely empty, we see make- up. Shannon comes in, Kanon comes out, and there's make- up in the room, that's enough for me to take Shkanon into consideration. Moreso, if Jessica and George were to have made an observation such as Kanon acting effeminate sometimes or Shannon's voice become low at random points.
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Old 2011-10-01, 08:07   Link #24744
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Oh, okay. I've heard people talking about him attempting suicide more than once so I find interesting if this was actually never said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Probably talking about him jumping from the boat, but I would call that Battler attempting suicide, not Touya.
okay mark this:

Quote:
Ikuko:
「彼はある日、自分と、受け容れられぬもうひとりの自分との板ばさみに、発作的に 。」
「運良く、一命を取り留めましたが、その後遺症で、車椅子で生活せざるを得ない体に。」

Ange:
「そんな、ことが。」

これで、兄が車椅子に乗って現れた理由が、わかった。
More or less:

Ikuko:
".......Because of that one day, being torn apart between his self and another self he couldn't accept, while on a fit he........."
"Fortunately his life was saved but as a consequence he'll be forever bound to that wellchair......."

Ange:
".....How terrible..."

And so I understood why my brother was on that wellchair.


Ikuko stopped before saying "attempted suicide" but it's pretty straightforward anyway. This is also where you learn that the wellchair is a consequence of the attempted suicide and not a disability he acquired before meeting Ikuko.
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:09   Link #24745
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Yeah, thats pretty clear. Touya tried to kill himself after remembering the truth then? What is the "Self he couldn't accept" though? Battler? Thats kinda of an odd way to put it, maybe killing yourself because of the people that where attached to Battler the person, but just killing yourself just because the other self was Battler seems kinda odd.

...Unless....Battler culprit...
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:37   Link #24746
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About Gohda and Kumasawa's murder in EP4, I remember that in EP1 it was said that the keys in the servant's room, including the key to the shed didn't have name tags. If the premise didn't change for EP4, it might hint that the key that Battler foudn from Gohda's pocket was indeed fake.

Don't you think there's some kind of allusion to the scene with Yasu meeting Kinzo after finding the gold at the end of EP3? Eva told Ange that he'd get the cursed gold. Didn't Eva die soon after? And then Ange was about to jump from the building... Could that somehow also present how Yasu felt when he got to know it all too?
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:49   Link #24747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
The only way a scenario can point towards Shkanon is if said scenario contained evidence pointing towards the possibility of disguise. Using Usagi's scenario, let's look inside the room and instead of it being completely empty, we see make- up. Shannon comes in, Kanon comes out, and there's make- up in the room, that's enough for me to take Shkanon into consideration. Moreso, if Jessica and George were to have made an observation such as Kanon acting effeminate sometimes or Shannon's voice become low at random points.
There's nothing whatsoever in the serie that makes me think a disguise comes into play in the Shkanontrice deal.
It's like asking if Maria really wears Witch Maria's dress when she appears as such.
I'd worry a lot more about the fact that even Jessica/Natsuhi/Krauss who lives there apparently don't have spare clothes for the second day if we're going to talk about clothes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yeah, although that's just a little too obvious. It's possible to use that as the core of the solution and construct misdirection around it though. That's kind of the problem with the existing puzzles in the story: None of them really require this at the core. It could be either Shannon or Kanon doing this or that and it largely doesn't matter who it is, particularly when somebody's going to turn up dead anyway (it's not like they can tell anybody).

EDIT: Actually why didn't I think of that? The victim leaves behind some kind of clue as to their killer, pointing at Shannon as the killer, but Shannon couldn't possibly have committed the murder for whatever alibi reason. Kanon, however, could have, but it's dismissed because the victim didn't incriminate Kanon.
Well I was making it dumb on purpose, the writer's goal should be to do exactly what you said. To take an idea as simple as that and put enough things around it to confuses us.
Still I don't think you can achieve a single culprit theory in Umineko without taking a wild guess that doesn't lead to Shkanontrice.
So as far as I'm concerned the serie pretty much succeeded already.
Shkanontrice is blatantly obvious too.

Edit: Something like as long as you're aware these are stories, which the author theory claims very directly, there's no reason why you couldn't use literacy rules as detective techniques, which leads directly to Shkanontrice.
Or can you give a non Shkanontrice explanation as to why, let's say, the opening parts of arc 2 with Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice and the brooch was put in the story without a Shkanontrice solution?

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-10-01 at 09:59.
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:53   Link #24748
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Yeah, thats pretty clear. Touya tried to kill himself after remembering the truth then? What is the "Self he couldn't accept" though? Battler? Thats kinda of an odd way to put it, maybe killing yourself because of the people that where attached to Battler the person, but just killing yourself just because the other self was Battler seems kinda odd.

...Unless....Battler culprit...
Well in the part just before what I quoted Battler explains in details how much he was scared about the emergence of his long forgotten memories. But he didn't see them as "his memories" rather as the memories of someone else that suddenly were pushed into his mind.

This is of course irrational but accepting that this is how he saw that, it's not that strange that he was afraid. What would you think if memories of a person that isn't you were slowly piling up in your brain and if those memories were slowly altering your own personality?

Just think about "Total Recall" and you get the picture. If Douglas Quaid only had the choice to either kill himself or becoming Hauser he'd probably choose the former.


Naturally this is the situation as it was described, its plausibility is a whole different matter. I've never heard of an amnesiac refuting to acknowledge his recovering memories as his own and I'm quite skeptical about this possibility.
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:58   Link #24749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Yeah, thats pretty clear. Touya tried to kill himself after remembering the truth then? What is the "Self he couldn't accept" though? Battler? Thats kinda of an odd way to put it, maybe killing yourself because of the people that where attached to Battler the person, but just killing yourself just because the other self was Battler seems kinda odd.

...Unless....Battler culprit...
Well it's been established in EP8 that Tya's biggest fear was vanishing as soon as Battler's memory completely returned. Tya wasn't Battler with memory loss but a completely different person, Hachij Tya, who had started building his own life. He was ripped apart between wanting to know what had happened and wanting to close the chapter Ushiromiya Battler forever and lay him to rest...that was basically his only reason for entertaining the game.

That was also the reason he said why he didn't want to meet Ange, because it would imply accepting that he (Tya) is merely a fake residing in Ushiromiya Battler's body. In the scene at the end of EP8 he's also not very amused by Yukari/Ange calling him Onii-chan all of a sudden, because it's basically what he wanted to avoid.

Battler culprit is possible...I think it's also not that much unlikely considering Ikuko's, Tya's and Yukari's behaviour. It's at least liklier than some other family members commiting the murder, as he is basically the only one who has no immediate attachements on the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
About Gohda and Kumasawa's murder in EP4, I remember that in EP1 it was said that the keys in the servant's room, including the key to the shed didn't have name tags. If the premise didn't change for EP4, it might hint that the key that Battler foudn from Gohda's pocket was indeed fake.
Though it's widely hinted in the EPs that key-forgery is largely frowned upon by the author. It is again and again implied how keys cannot and have not been duplicated...so it's kind of strange if this one was an exception.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Naturally this is the situation as it was described, its plausibility is a whole different matter. I've never heard of an amnesiac refuting to acknowledge his recovering memories as his own and I'm quite skeptical about this possibility.
I've heard of such cases and it's not really plain amnesia...I forgot where I read it (I got the tip from a friend who's more knowledgable about human physiology) but it's basically that through a damage to your brain everything except the most basic functional things can be made inaccesable. Therefore everything you do from that point on is a new life...you basically don't even remember that you don't remember.

Last edited by haguruma; 2011-10-01 at 10:08.
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Old 2011-10-01, 10:18   Link #24750
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ikuko stopped before saying "attempted suicide" but it's pretty straightforward anyway. This is also where you learn that the wellchair is a consequence of the attempted suicide and not a disability he acquired before meeting Ikuko.
Thanks. I must've read it right the first time through, but just missed the implication the second time... my Japanese needs work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Yeah, thats pretty clear. Touya tried to kill himself after remembering the truth then? What is the "Self he couldn't accept" though? Battler? Thats kinda of an odd way to put it, maybe killing yourself because of the people that where attached to Battler the person, but just killing yourself just because the other self was Battler seems kinda odd.

...Unless....Battler culprit...
Battler is definitely the self he couldn't accept. Touya has difficulty accepting Battler because his acquired brain defect causes him to literally think of Battler as a completely foreign person to him. When he recovers Battler's memories he literally thinks of them as memories of a different person and from these memories he is terrified of being overwritten by an alien personality.

At first he just suppressed the Battler identity. But then Ange tried to contact 'Hachijou Touya' (the author). Touya hesitated to meet her though, because he was afraid of the expectation to fill the role expected as her brother. Then Ange disappeared (in truth becoming Kotobuki Yukari) and he regretted his decision; he began to feel that it was his duty to Ange to return to being Battler. He struggled and struggled (for years, IIRC), but no matter what Touya could not be Battler; Battler was a different person. It was somewhere in this period that he had a fit and attempted suicide.

It's pretty obvious that Ange's episode 4 appearance and death in the meta-world is a reflection of Ange's real-life attempt to contact Touya and her subsequent disappearance.

So, we're back to my original question: Was Touya's attempted suicide reflected somewhere in the meta-narrative? And if it was, where? I'm leaning towards the end of episode 5, but would like to hear what others think.
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Old 2011-10-01, 11:09   Link #24751
Renall
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well I was making it dumb on purpose, the writer's goal should be to do exactly what you said. To take an idea as simple as that and put enough things around it to confuses us.
So as far as I'm concerned the serie pretty much succeeded already.
Shkanontrice is blatantly obvious too.
Actually, that's pretty much why it failed. It was incredibly obvious, it just relied on lies and nonsense to disguise it, many of the lies coming well after perceptive readers had picked up on a blatantly obvious conceit.
Quote:
Still I don't think you can achieve a single culprit theory in Umineko without taking a wild guess that doesn't lead to Shkanontrice.
Battler.

Unless you mean the stories. Even then, in a few episodes there are possible alternatives.

As far as using literary conceits as detective methods, well, didn't that wind up with Kyrie being incriminated? There was a complete absence of actual evidence for her, yet so many people were like "Yeah, I could see that."
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I've heard of such cases and it's not really plain amnesia...I forgot where I read it (I got the tip from a friend who's more knowledgable about human physiology) but it's basically that through a damage to your brain everything except the most basic functional things can be made inaccesable. Therefore everything you do from that point on is a new life...you basically don't even remember that you don't remember.
There is a condition known as a fugue state we discussed earlier, characterized by basically forgetting everything about yourself due to trauma or psychological factors, wandering off, and becoming someone else. The main point of interest is that when a fugue state sufferer recovers he or she usually develops a memory block for the time he was his fugue state identity. So in the case of Battler developing a fugue and becoming Toya he'd more or less literally be erased if Battler's memory returned.

Of course the literary treatment of Toya's condition is not very much like a fugue state at all. For one, it isn't temporary, which most fugues are. For another, I'm pretty sure the fugue state isn't aware of the return of memories (in no small part because their return is as sudden as the beginning of the dissociative fugue itself).

I think Jan-Poo's association with the film Total Recall is better. Let's throw out realistic psychology and just assume that the incident boxed up Battler's entire identity and memory and shoved it in a corner. Toya was then allowed to exist by building his own entirely independent identity on the life he actually knew.

Then one day for whatever reason the box got a little beaten up and Toya peeked briefly inside, kind of like when Quaid sees the video made by Hauser. He's seeing an entirely different person, yet one who absolutely perfectly resembles him and whose memories he at least suspects (and in Toya's case perhaps knows) predate his own. From the perspective of the current personality (Quaid/Toya), that's quite a shock, because not being the "original you" casts doubt on whether "you" even exist.

Philosophically I don't think it's an issue, but I'm sure that's not comforting to Toya and his fake literary mental condition, whatever it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
So, we're back to my original question: Was Touya's attempted suicide reflected somewhere in the meta-narrative? And if it was, where? I'm leaning towards the end of episode 5, but would like to hear what others think.
I see there being only three possible points if it's reflected in the meta-narrative at all:
  • When Battler disappears in ep4. I don't think this is the case because Beatrice is making an attack on Battler, so if anything the possibility that Battler isn't who he thinks he is should comfort Toya. To make an inference here you'd have to suggest it was transitive, along the lines of "if Battler wasn't exactly the person he believes he was, is it possible I'm not who I think I am; that is, I'm really Battler after all?"
  • At the end of the ep5 trial when Battler "dies" and comes back to life. We already know from ep6 that when Beatrice died and came back it wasn't really the same Beatrice. In the same sense, the Battler who appears to become the sorcerer BATTLER in ep5's conclusion is really not the same character anymore. He's smarter, he's more mysterious, he's harder to provoke, and he's switched sides. All of this could be associated with a major life change that either results from or precipitates a suicide attempt. Of course, the problem here is that, rather mysteriously, Toya begins, through BATTLER, to rather strongly oppose exposing the truth. That's hard to reconcile with someone who was so afraid of becoming Battler (who is the only one with an interest in hiding the truth) that he'd try to kill himself. Surely an academic interest in knowing the truth would help Toya believe he isn't Battler anymore at all, as he could pinpoint the exact circumstances of Battler's "death." In the alternative, he's become irrational and thinks burying the truth will somehow prevent Battler from coming back. It almost seems like Battler got stronger after the suicide attempt if this is the point where it happened.
  • When Battler is trapped in the Logic Error. I don't think this is the case because it doesn't really involve a question of identity at all (at least, not for Battler). I also don't think this is the case because Genius Battler would posit that Battler wandered into this "trap" entirely voluntarily, so unless Toya's suicide attempt wasn't actually designed to kill himself (and we have no one's word but Ikuko's about it to draw any conclusions) it doesn't match up metaphorically.
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Old 2011-10-01, 11:37   Link #24752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
okay mark this:

More or less:

Ikuko:
".......Because of that one day, being torn apart between his self and another self he couldn't accept, while on a fit he........."
"Fortunately his life was saved but as a consequence he'll be forever bound to that wellchair......."

Ange:
".....How terrible..."

And so I understood why my brother was on that wellchair.


Ikuko stopped before saying "attempted suicide" but it's pretty straightforward anyway. This is also where you learn that the wellchair is a consequence of the attempted suicide and not a disability he acquired before meeting Ikuko.
Okay, thank you so much for the info!
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Old 2011-10-01, 12:00   Link #24753
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well in the part just before what I quoted Battler explains in details how much he was scared about the emergence of his long forgotten memories. But he didn't see them as "his memories" rather as the memories of someone else that suddenly were pushed into his mind.

This is of course irrational but accepting that this is how he saw that, it's not that strange that he was afraid. What would you think if memories of a person that isn't you were slowly piling up in your brain and if those memories were slowly altering your own personality?

Just think about "Total Recall" and you get the picture. If Douglas Quaid only had the choice to either kill himself or becoming Hauser he'd probably choose the former.

Naturally this is the situation as it was described, its plausibility is a whole different matter. I've never heard of an amnesiac refuting to acknowledge his recovering memories as his own and I'm quite skeptical about this possibility.
Well, generally a person suffering with amnesia wonders about his past. However from what I heard it seems Toya couldn't care less about it even before starting to remember.

There are few cases in which amnesiac people avoid the past and, as far as I know those are in case of serious brain damage (think at "Regarding Henry" in which he was reduced to an almost childish state before slowly recovering) or in case of traumatic past.

Toya doesn't seem reduced to a child level, although he underwent brain damage but he likely saw something traumatic.

When he regains his memory from what I gathered he doesn't remember happy childhood moments but the Rokkenjima tragedy of which he views himself as responsible not as assassin but as someone who caused it to happen (there are hints about this).

What he might be refusing is the happy Battler who has incidentally set into motion the whole thing and had to live through the whole thing without being able to stop it as well as the effect the tragedy has/had on him.
In addition there should be contrasting feelings about the whole matter.
For example Battler cared for his relatives so he would likely search excuses for their behaviour but, at the same time Toya could care less about them and could be honestly disgusted about their behaviour and fail to accept it creating conflicting feelings and refusal of the 'Battler's soul'.

Plus, Toya had all the time to build up a Toya's personality that can be different from Battler's. If he had recovered his memory short after the incident Toya wouldn't exist yet but if many years had gone from the incident Toya is definitely a person of his own that might differ from Battler quite a bit.

(also if Ikuko=Yasu, he might have been forced to accept that Ikuko, who's at least his friend, might have a part in the tragedy and kept it hidden from him. He might found hard to believe in her all of sudden and, at the same time, refuse it because maybe she was the only person on whom he could rely. It's definitely scary and, if he weren't able to prove she was Yasu nor remember well her involvement, he might feel at the same time as if he was suspecting her of something she hadn't done. It's scary and confusing to say the least).


Still yes, it seems weird that Toya apparently showed no interest at all in his past life. Ikuko however might have tricked him too telling him that no one had searched for him so he likely had no one that cared for him.
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Old 2011-10-01, 12:51   Link #24754
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It almost seems like Battler got stronger after the suicide attempt if this is the point where it happened.
I tend to view Battler's "death" when he falls from the motorboat to be a kind of conceptual suicide. Battler actually chose to stay with his beloved Beatrice, a merely conceptual being herself, in the world of illusion, and by doing so stayed behind on Rokkenjima when his body left it. Not truly dead, but also not part of the real world, Battler and Beatrice still "exist" in 1998, but as beings confined to Rokkenjima 1986, which is why their story always revolves around repeating those two days over and over again. Battler's presence in the real world of 1998 is like a shadow of a person, much like that of Beatrice's presence on Rokkenjima; he can only manifest himself indirectly, like in writing. Then 1998 Ange stumbles upon this extant shadow of 1986 Battler and shit starts going down.

'Course in terms of science, this is all nonsense.

Anyway, onto what you were saying about Battler getting stronger... I think the strength that BATTLER develops at the end of episode 5 reflects his new-found (or found-again) acceptance of, and strong attachment to, the world of illusion. In other words, from his resurrection in episode 5 and onward BATTLER is most certainly thriving, but he is doing so completely as a being of a "magical" world; especially after switching sides it becomes clear that his goal is no longer to "escape from the witch".

How this is related to an attempted suicide is hard to say. Perhaps it marked Battler's ultimate victory in his goal to not be restored.
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Old 2011-10-01, 13:12   Link #24755
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
When he regains his memory from what I gathered he doesn't remember happy childhood moments but the Rokkenjima tragedy of which he views himself as responsible not as assassin but as someone who caused it to happen (there are hints about this).
Actually, it's the opposite. Touya's Battler-memories before Rokkenjima 1986 are clear, but his memories of those two days are fuzzy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Still yes, it seems weird that Toya apparently showed no interest at all in his past life. Ikuko however might have tricked him too telling him that no one had searched for him so he likely had no one that cared for him.
It's true that from the get-go Touya didn't seem to hold interest in recovering his memories, but it seemed to be his natural inclination... not any kind of subversive guidance from Ikuko. It's true that Ikuko bribed the doctor to keep Touya's presence at her house a secret, but Touya himself almost seemed eager to start a new life too; he was very accepting of his new name "Hachijou Touya".

Also, Ikuko did inform Touya when Ange tried to contact him in 1998; she even thought that he should meet her. He refused.
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Old 2011-10-01, 13:15   Link #24756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Still yes, it seems weird that Toya apparently showed no interest at all in his past life. Ikuko however might have tricked him too telling him that no one had searched for him so he likely had no one that cared for him.
I don't know if I remember correctly, but I think it was you who hasn't read EP8 completely yet.
Tya is affraid of Battler's memory because to him it is not his past life. It is the life of a stranger which suddenly turned up in his brain but to which he shows no emotional attachments. He remembers all of Battler's private past but only essential parts of Rokkenjima which he needed to understand the truth...the details are still hazy even to him.
For example, when Yukari asks Tya if he remembers her hair-beads (Ange) he says that he has a memory of getting it for her and how Battler was happy that he could give that present to her, but apparently it means nothing to him personally.

Ikuko said she even encouraged him to meet Ange when she tried first to make contact over the agent of Hachij Tya. It was Tya himself who refused meeting Ange, because it would have meant that he had an attachement to her, which basically meant he was Ushiromiya Battler. He felt genuinly guilty for doing that to a relative of Battler, but he did not seem to feel sorry for Ange on a personal level.

He showed interest in the events so far that he had this ambigious craving to know more about himself, he wanted to prove his own existence and his own selfworth. It's basically similar to Shannon and Kanon...they grew "human" through their life and the people around him, even though they are basically not the original person they become alive and grow hopes and dreams of their own because they are lived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Anyway, onto what you were saying about Battler getting stronger... I think the strength that BATTLER develops at the end of episode 5 reflects his new-found (or found-again) acceptance of, and strong attachment to, the world of illusion. In other words, from his resurrection in episode 5 and onward BATTLER is most certainly thriving, but he is doing so completely as a being of a "magical" world; especially after switching sides it becomes clear that his goal is no longer to "escape from the witch".

How this is related to an attempted suicide is hard to say. Perhaps it marked Battler's ultimate victory in his goal to not be restored.
I saw this also as the point when Tya found enough of the truth to justify his own selfworth and to see a reason to no longer doubt himself like he did in EP4. He also probably found what Yasu had intended to hide and found it worthy to hide it too. It doesn't have to be anything personal, it can also be a shared ideal of love which he sees worthy to protect. EP5 (the finale) and 6 shows that he shares the idea to protect the Ushiromiyas so it's quite likely that he found his ideals similar to those of Yasu.
Of course this can imply that he himself was the culprit and that the thing he saw worthy to protect was himself...
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Old 2011-10-01, 13:41   Link #24757
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's pretty obvious that Ange's episode 4 appearance and death in the meta-world is a reflection of Ange's real-life attempt to contact Touya and her subsequent disappearance.

So, we're back to my original question: Was Touya's attempted suicide reflected somewhere in the meta-narrative? And if it was, where? I'm leaning towards the end of episode 5, but would like to hear what others think.
Well, I already gave my own suggestions so I'm curious as well to know what others think.
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Old 2011-10-01, 14:10   Link #24758
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I don't know if I remember correctly, but I think it was you who hasn't read EP8 completely yet.
*nods* Yes, that's me, in fact I said:

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However from what I heard it seems Toya couldn't care less about it even before starting to remember.
The summaries however might have been wrong or misleading so I might have been wrong.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Tya is affraid of Battler's memory because to him it is not his past life.
Maybe I explained myself poorly. I'm not surprised by the fact that, after some years, Toya would refuse the Battler's personality which suddently began to haunt him. I'm surprised by the fact no references at Toya trying to recover his memory were mentioned as soon as he woke up amnesiac.

As soon as he woke up a 'Toya's personality' didn't really exist yet. Toya has no memories nor life or friends on which he can cling.
Therefore it should be normal for him to wonder 'who am I? Do I have a family, friends, people I care for and that care for me?'.
This wondering should have remained nagging him even as he began building up a Toya's personality.
Of course, once the Toya's personality began to have birth and he began to build up a new life, recovering the Battler's personality and memories could have been troublesome.
Trying to kill himself over it however seems a bit of an exaggerate reaction, unless a trauma is connected to Battler or the two are totally different.
Memories are just memories, they can't 'take control' of you, though they can influence your actions because they give you additional experience, feelings and informations.

However in which 'scary way' those memories could influence Toya? Would it be so wrong for him to be Ange's big brother?

Would those memories try to push him to totally change his life?

My guess is that more than the 'Battler's personality' he's scared by the trauma the Battler's personality underwent.

For example, if he were to keep on dreaming his relatives shooting at each other he might feel tempted to deny any connection with that scene, to refuse any connection with that scene. This hadn't happened to him, it's something that had happened to someone else. Toya's relatives, whoever they were, wouldn't do it, so he can't be Battler, so Ange can't be his little sister, so he doesn't even want to see her.

This is a perfectly normal reaction... but it's based more on the refusal of a traumatic past than of a mere personality.

Of course, once I'll manage to read Ep 8 myself my perception might change... so I'm really waiting anxiously for it to be released.
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Old 2011-10-01, 14:11   Link #24759
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've been wondering if he tried to toss himself down from a building, like Ange (in Ep 5 he jump down a window, and though he didn't aim to kill himself it wasn't as smooth as a fall as it looked at first).
A fall makes sense to me, since it seems like the most likely way a suicide attempt would lead to paralysis.

Renall covered my thoughts on the other two possible times of the suicide (episode 4 identity crisis and the episode 6 logic error).
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Old 2011-10-01, 14:14   Link #24760
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Actually, it's the opposite. Touya's Battler-memories before Rokkenjima 1986 are clear, but his memories of those two days are fuzzy.
Oh, okay. from what I read about Ep 8 (and the fact in Umineko little is told about Battler's past) I had the feeling it was the reverse thing.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's true that from the get-go Touya didn't seem to hold interest in recovering his memories, but it seemed to be his natural inclination... not any kind of subversive guidance from Ikuko. It's true that Ikuko bribed the doctor to keep Touya's presence at her house a secret, but Touya himself almost seemed eager to start a new life too; he was very accepting of his new name "Hachijou Touya".

Also, Ikuko did inform Touya when Ange tried to contact him in 1998; she even thought that he should meet her. He refused.
That's what I find a bit weird. Normally people would feel lost and scared without their own memories, identity and knowledge of who they can trust.

However it can be Toya's character is just like that. It's a bit odd but it's possible.
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