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Old 2011-10-01, 14:31   Link #24761
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
My guess is that more than the 'Battler's personality' he's scared by the trauma the Battler's personality underwent.
That would be an understandable reason but it's not how Touya puts it.
Touya is pretty clear in saying that he's afraid of this other person that is trying to reclaim its place. And this is not normal.

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Oh, okay. from what I read about Ep 8 (and the fact in Umineko little is told about Battler's past) I had the feeling it was the reverse thing.
Basically at the time he meets Ange he says he remembered everything but when Ange inquires about what happened on those two days he says he doesn't have a clear recollection of that.
Of course he could be lying... we will never know...


Quote:
So, we're back to my original question: Was Touya's attempted suicide reflected somewhere in the meta-narrative? And if it was, where? I'm leaning towards the end of episode 5, but would like to hear what others think.
Simply put I don't think there's something of that sort, but if I had to find the closest thing to that I'd say EP4 after learning that he's not Asumu's son.
It's basically a self-nullification that comes from an identity crisis related to a bothersome truth of his past.

However I think it's still a stretch to see it that way. A suicide attempt requires resolution, and there's never been an istance where Battler was resoluted about ending his own existence.
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Old 2011-10-01, 14:59   Link #24762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
However in which 'scary way' those memories could influence Toya? Would it be so wrong for him to be Ange's big brother?

Would those memories try to push him to totally change his life?

My guess is that more than the 'Battler's personality' he's scared by the trauma the Battler's personality underwent.
Not necessarily. Imagine out of the blue you would have memories of a stranger popping up in your head and additionaly a girl would be calling you saying you are her big brother...I would be rather creeped out and would try to stay at a distance first...especially if I had built up a life that can be called stable at least.

Battler's memories were also not the most happy...Battler was quarreling with his father most of the time, his "birth-mother" was dead and his "adoptive mother" was emotionally cold towards him. That's not exactly something that I would be happy to embrace...especially not if I had the option to embrace my life as Tya.

Also he as Tya has no emotional attachements to Ange. Wether or not that is actually psychologically or physiologically possible is on another page, but he did not feel for her as a brother. It'd be the same as a total stranger asking you to be a family...no matter how they feel for you, you just don't feel.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:03   Link #24763
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That would be an understandable reason but it's not how Touya puts it.
Touya is pretty clear in saying that he's afraid of this other person that is trying to reclaim its place. And this is not normal.
*nods* I think exactly the same. Unless he and Battler are diametrically opposite in tastes or character or morality he should manage to deal with Battler's personality in a less drastic way.

It works in Total Recall because:
- Quaid had to face two different sets of memories, the false ones that he believed real and the ones that belonged to Hauser, and that were very different
- His whole life was false, artificially built. Even his wife wasn't who he thought she was.
- His moral beliefs were the opposite of Hauser.

This made him a completely different person where it mattered (he might have had in common with Hauser some tastes and quirks for all we know, maybe he could have had in common with him a lot of things, but still their personalities would diverge drammatically in the real important issues)

In Regarding Henry we've a similar situation but:
- after his incident Henry was reduced to an almost childish state and was scared to change his environment therefore refusing at first to move in his old house.
- although scared he doesn't really discharge the idea of remembering his past. Actually the fact he remembered how his house's floor was, is what pushes him to find the will to go back home.
- he never fully recovers his memory, though he gets a lot of info about how he was before. Since he's not like that anymore, after some uncertain, he merely refuses to attempt to go back to how he was before and continues acting the way he feels it's right.

In both situations (Total recall and Regarding Henry), we've men that lost their memory and built up a new personality. The 'fight' with the old personality is however due to a dramatic difference in moral beliefs and lifestyles.

Quaid fought to stop Hauser from taking control... but it was more a battle due to what Hauser would have done once in control and the fact that everything that Quaid believed would be erased (his personality was artificially built and would be removed from the body in which it resided).

Also Hauser's personality wasn't really in Quaid. He 'interacts' with it through video.

If a person were to suddently have two different personalities residing in a single body he would suffer of Dissociative identity disorder.

Now... it's possible Toya develops it after regaining his memories due to the trauma of what had happened but somehow all this feel excessively complicate...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Basically at the time he meets Ange he says he remembered everything but when Ange inquires about what happened on those two days he says he doesn't have a clear recollection of that.
Of course he could be lying... we will never know...
*sighs* it's so sad we'll never knew... there are too many blank spots in Umineko...
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:15   Link #24764
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On the amnesia topic, aside from the medical implausibility/impossibility aspect from it, I actually think the story handled the psychological implications of it pretty well. It's feasible that after being told you did something you didn't remember, you would want to regain those memories. It's just as feasible that, depending on what kind of person you were, you would go "...yeah no, it's not worth the effort. Why would I care?"

There are certainly reasons why you could care about it, but it's just as likely that in that situation you just wouldn't care that much.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:18   Link #24765
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Not necessarily. Imagine out of the blue you would have memories of a stranger popping up in your head and additionaly a girl would be calling you saying you are her big brother...I would be rather creeped out and would try to stay at a distance first...especially if I had built up a life that can be called stable at least.

Battler's memories were also not the most happy...Battler was quarreling with his father most of the time, his "birth-mother" was dead and his "adoptive mother" was emotionally cold towards him. That's not exactly something that I would be happy to embrace...especially not if I had the option to embrace my life as Tya.

Also he as Tya has no emotional attachements to Ange. Wether or not that is actually psychologically or physiologically possible is on another page, but he did not feel for her as a brother. It'd be the same as a total stranger asking you to be a family...no matter how they feel for you, you just don't feel.
If all of sudden I started having memories that don't belong to me I'll be scared, all right. However Toya is aware that there are 18 years of his life he doesn't remember and that he must have lived.

He should expects them to exist, they shouldn't catch him on surprise.
He should be curious about them. They could have been happy and filled with people he loved and that loved him back and that's worried for him and would like to have him back.

Now, Battler's life wasn't a bowl of cherries but lot of people deal with worse.
Asumu apparently was a loving mother. Although he argued with Rudolf, if the games are to take into consideration, it wasn't like they hate each other.

I'm not sure about the Kirye part because I don't know well how things went between them. Apparently they didn't have a bad relation, he was merely too old to accept her as a mother and apparently though she too didn't feel like considering him her son.

This is normal and not so overly traumatic.

However if he knew that Kirye was his real mother and that she refused him, or even worse that she hated him and wanted him dead (and maybe even shot at him in Rokkenjima) things might be a lot more traumatic... however this would be part of the two days he didn't remember well.

I'm not expecting him to love Ange as he did before... but i don't see a reason to totally reject her either.

She's his sister and he should know she presumably loved him. Why shouldn't he try to rebuild a relation with her?

It's not like he was told he had a wife when he was Battler but now that's Toya he had another and, to return to his previous wife, he should leave the actual one. Interacting with Ange wouldn't be that terrible and, if it were, he could always stop trying to deal with her.

All in all, unless he were suffering of dissociative identity disorder (or the real problem were the traumas that were tied to teh Battler's personality), I perceive his reaction as exaggerate.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:39   Link #24766
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There's nothing whatsoever in the serie that makes me think a disguise comes into play in the Shkanontrice deal.
It's like asking if Maria really wears Witch Maria's dress when she appears as such.
I'd worry a lot more about the fact that even Jessica/Natsuhi/Krauss who lives there apparently don't have spare clothes for the second day if we're going to talk about clothes.
Wait, so you're telling me that Shannon dresses up as Kanon then dresses up as Beatrice and isn't in disguise? Please explain that to me. As for the following points, of course Maria'll say yes, she probably has a costume packed up in her luggage, and what do you mean they don't have spare clothes? They have closets for that purpose.
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Old 2011-10-01, 15:48   Link #24767
AuraTwilight
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A disguise specifically means dressing up as another person, like if Shannon dressed up as Beatrice. but Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all her own creations. It's kind of a loophole.
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:03   Link #24768
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
A disguise specifically means dressing up as another person, like if Shannon dressed up as Beatrice. but Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all her own creations. It's kind of a loophole.
But that loophole creates a paradox, Kanon and Beatrice ate still considered seperate people, so if she were to dress up as them, she would be in disquise because she's concealing her own identity.
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:06   Link #24769
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However I think it's still a stretch to see it that way. A suicide attempt requires resolution, and there's never been an istance where Battler was resoluted about ending his own existence.
This is true, but it wasn't a premeditated thing (it was the result of a "fit", right?) There's also the matter of the difference between Touya and Battler; BATTLER is not a direct representation of Touya.

Still, you may be right; the suicide thing may have just been thrown in for drama points in the last minute.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If all of sudden I started having memories that don't belong to me I'll be scared, all right. However Toya is aware that there are 18 years of his life he doesn't remember and that he must have lived.

He should expects them to exist, they shouldn't catch him on surprise.
He should be curious about them. They could have been happy and filled with people he loved and that loved him back and that's worried for him and would like to have him back.
Ikuko and Touya never used the Japanese equivalent term "amnesia" to describe Touya's condition to Yukari (although we often use it here as shorthand), instead saying something along the lines of "memory defect". The symptoms aren't like exactly like the amnesia we are used to, and it's even somewhat lampshaded by Yukari's initial reactions and a need for Ikuko to do a lot of explaining.

I think it's an entirely psychological thing. Battler submerged his identity on purpose, so the fact that Touya has a natural lack of desire to recover Battler's memories makes perfect sense.
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:27   Link #24770
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Simply put I don't think there's something of that sort, but if I had to find the closest thing to that I'd say EP4 after learning that he's not Asumu's son.
It's basically a self-nullification that comes from an identity crisis related to a bothersome truth of his past.

However I think it's still a stretch to see it that way. A suicide attempt requires resolution, and there's never been an istance where Battler was resoluted about ending his own existence.
In Umineko Battler doesn't actively attempt suicide but he's willing to risk his life with the knowledge he can lose it (Ep 5 when he jumps from the window, risking to slip... and he'll slip only he'll manage to not get hurt, Ep 5 when he tries to save Beato risking to be erased from the gameboard and for a while he's erased, Ep 8 when he tries to save Beato from drowning... this time he'll drown... also there's Will who, in attempt to save Lion risks his life and ends up losing his arm... maybe I'm weird but I tend to think at Will not only as the personification of the van Dine's rules but also as Toya's representation).

Now if the fit wasn't really a suicide attempt but an attempt to prove something (likely that he wasn't Battler) that backfired on him with drastic consequences.

Though really... there's too little info about what had happened to work up a good explanation (it doesn't help Toya's situation somehow always remind me of King's "Misery"... )
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:29   Link #24771
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Ikuko and Touya never used the Japanese equivalent term "amnesia" to describe Touya's condition to Yukari (although we often use it here as shorthand), instead saying something along the lines of "memory defect". The symptoms aren't like exactly like the amnesia we are used to, and it's even somewhat lampshaded by Yukari's initial reactions and a need for Ikuko to do a lot of explaining.

I think it's an entirely psychological thing. Battler submerged his identity on purpose, so the fact that Touya has a natural lack of desire to recover Battler's memories makes perfect sense.

Oh, okay. If it's the trauma of what happened that caused Toya to reject Battler I'm fine with it. ... *sighs* I so want to read the second part of Ep 8...
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Old 2011-10-01, 16:38   Link #24772
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Though really... there's too little info about what had happened to work up a good explanation (it doesn't help Toya's situation somehow always remind me of King's "Misery"... )
There's no indication anywhere that Touya is unhappy with Ikuko's place in his life. At least until Touya begins to regain his memory, his life with Ikuko is depicted as a happy one (in his own first person monologue, even).

And then afterwards when Touya meets Yukari, he and Ikuko seem to be very happy with each other as companions.

We don't know exactly what happens in between, and that's also where all of Touya's angst happens... but there's never any hint of antagonism between the two whatsoever.
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Old 2011-10-01, 17:04   Link #24773
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
He should expects them to exist, they shouldn't catch him on surprise.
He should be curious about them. They could have been happy and filled with people he loved and that loved him back and that's worried for him and would like to have him back.
Like Wanderer already implied, Battler has turned inactive on purpose, that is one point. But it is also important that Tya does not want to return to his life as Battler, he holds no emotional attachement whatsoever.
Like already said the term they use in EP8 hints to a damage of the brain which lead to him falling into a state of dissociation. It's like telling somebody to feel something for something out of the blue...you can't be told to love somebody or feel something.

It is of course something that we have to accept in the fictional context of Umineko, but Tya really is not Battler in the common sense. You are making it sound as if he is still Ushiromiya Battler, but he is merely a vessel who used to be a container for the person Ushiromiya Battler and now holds nothing but the data of Battler's memory.
The whole struggle in EP4 with Battler fearing he might not be Battler was, to me, a struggle of Tya who grew unsure if he even was Ushiromiya Battler or i maybe he had just heard of the story of Rokkenjima before and made everything up in his mind to fill the gap in between. His whole memory only returned when Ange had already given up on her life and started writing as Kotobuki Yukari.

It's a lot more complicated than just "Battler" refusing to remember.
Yes Battler should be curious about his family, his life, everything...but Tya is not Battler and giving that memory too much power makes him feel like he stops existing as Tya.
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Old 2011-10-01, 17:07   Link #24774
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
There's no indication anywhere that Touya is unhappy with Ikuko's place in his life. At least until Touya begins to regain his memory, his life with Ikuko is depicted as a happy one (in his own first person monologue, even).

And then afterwards when Touya meets Yukari, he and Ikuko seem to be very happy with each other as companions.

We don't know exactly what happens in between, and that's also where all of Touya's angst happens... but there's never any hint of antagonism between the two whatsoever.
Well, I don't really think Ikuko broke Toya's legs and she's keeping him trapped... and yes, although I hadn't read Ep 8 part 2 yet I had the feeling Toya was happy with Ikuko, prior to recovering his memories. I tend to think he's also happy with her when he met Ange.

I've been wondering however if it could be he was... worried... in the time in between. If his memory didn't return all in a moment and if Ikuko was Yasu he might have had a time in which he felt suspicious about her, maybe even slightly paranoid (see Ep 8 trick ending in which Ange decides it would be better to get rid of Amakusa and the captain before they'll have a chance to try something).

In Umineko Battler is often tricked by Beato... it can be a hint to how in Rokkenjima Battler was tricked by someone but it can be also the reflection of a fear Toya had.

I'm not saying Ikuko had ill intentions toward him, just that he might have thought for a while she had them. Basically starting to remember how the incident was caused by one of the other 17 people on the island, people he trusted, might have made him a little less trusting about her.

Though not having read Ep 8 part 2 I can be very off from the mark.
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Old 2011-10-01, 17:29   Link #24775
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Like Wanderer already implied, Battler has turned inactive on purpose, that is one point. But it is also important that Tya does not want to return to his life as Battler, he holds no emotional attachement whatsoever.
You talk from a 'Toya exists' point of view. My point is there had been a time in which "Toya" didn't really exist.
All that existed was a memory less person. In that moment that person had no an enstabilished life for which he could feel attachment and that he might fear to lose, therefore it would be natural for that memory less person to long for his past memories as he should know they are his real identity and he might hope/expect to remember them sooner or later.

However, as the memories don't come back and the memory less person keep on living, he generates Toya, or better he generates a life that satisfy him while unconsciously developing a personality.

Now, as things progress Toya might build up a life and a personality that's totally different from Battler and that's so satisfing he doesn't mind anymore the loss of his previous life.

He exists as Toya now and he's happy like that. He doesn't want to change.

However he can't forget Toya didn't exist prior to his memory loss, that prior to this he was another person who likely had a family and friends and that he could recover his memory sooner or later.

As I said I'm not expecting him to love Ange out of the blue... but I don't see why he has to completely reject her. She's family, she means no harm and she has done nothing wrong.

She wouldn't rip him from the life he had built.

Now, if you're to tell me he might not want to meet Eva because he might suspect her to be the culprit or to aim on forcing him to lead a different life I would understand it.

I can even understand when he says he didn't want to show Ange a Battler in a wheelchair.

But the fact he fears "Battler" will take control of him and erase him... well, it doesn't seem realistic. "Battler" is reduced to memories now, data, in fact although Toya knows Battler loved Ange he doesn't feel the same. Data can't take the control of a person, feelings can, but from what everyone is saying, Battler's feelings aren't taking control of Toya.

Of course I give him that recovering the memories all of sudden might have confused him, expecially since Battler lost them after a traumatic incident. Still, I think Toya was overreacting.
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Old 2011-10-01, 18:31   Link #24776
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You talk from a 'Toya exists' point of view. My point is there had been a time in which "Toya" didn't really exist.
The question is wether there ever was a "memoryless Tya". It is at least hinted at that he was a mumbling mess in the weeks after the accident who couldn't do anything more than mutter some words like "18". He was probably already accustomed to his life as Tya when he had the ability to do so much as questio anything...
We also have to remember that we are dealing with a fictional person here. Wether or not the above mentioned is actually possible or not does not really play a part in reasoning towards his behaviour. He never had any time where he felt like "person X without memory". Ikuko seems to have given him the name Tya pretty early on and treated him like a family member...so he was never really treated as a person without a home either.

Quote:
Of course I give him that recovering the memories all of sudden might have confused him, expecially since Battler lost them after a traumatic incident. Still, I think Toya was overreacting.
Why should he know that Ange wouldn't force him into being Battler again? She has every reason to do so...him being her closest relative. If he was to reveal that the body of Battler was alive, he would have the obligation to, or at least feel it, to spent time with her...but he doesn't seem to feels any urge to do so.

You say she is family, but to him she is not...she is merely a bloodrelative to his body. That's like saying Kanon or Beatrice were in love with George, or Kanon was the child of Kinz. Technically it is true if you were to look at it from a factual perspective...but if you "see it with love" you see that there is no love and therefore no relation.
In Japanese you could say they are 血族 [ketsuzoku: blood relatives] but not 家族 [kazoku: family].
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Old 2011-10-01, 19:26   Link #24777
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also there's Will who, in attempt to save Lion risks his life and ends up losing his arm... maybe I'm weird but I tend to think at Will not only as the personification of the van Dine's rules but also as Toya's representation).
This would make a lot of sense actually. Well, mostly thematic sense mind you, but I think it would fit the story well.

Beatrice was never understood by Battler, but she WAS understood by Toya, who was an outsider to their relationship. It's certainly a nice way of looking at it. There isn't much evidence for it(and in fact there is evidence against it), but it's still kind of nice.
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Old 2011-10-01, 19:35   Link #24778
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The question is wether there ever was a "memoryless Tya". It is at least hinted at that he was a mumbling mess in the weeks after the accident who couldn't do anything more than mutter some words like "18". He was probably already accustomed to his life as Tya when he had the ability to do so much as questio anything...
To build up a solid personality and a life you need time.
Unless he was reduced to the mental state of a infant who slowly grew up, as soon as he became aware of his state and could reason like an adult, he should have questioned it.

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We also have to remember that we are dealing with a fictional person here. Wether or not the above mentioned is actually possible or not does not really play a part in reasoning towards his behaviour. He never had any time where he felt like "person X without memory". Ikuko seems to have given him the name Tya pretty early on and treated him like a family member...so he was never really treated as a person without a home either.
Well, Umineko is a fictional story so basically all of its characters are fictional and therefore might not act in a way that we would deem normal or common.

Also Ryukishi might not have a degree in psychology, mental traumas and such and have created Toya according to what was useful for the story, not to what was real. It's like the rain falling on Rokkenjima.
As long as it doesn't affect the solution of the game, it doesn't matter if it's irrealistic that people wouldn't get wet.
The same can apply for Toya. He was needed to forget everything then slowly regain his memory and for a while avoid contacting Ange. The phisical or psychological cause isn't that relevant for the plot.

However, from a realistical perspective, Toya's behaviour is uncommon, if you don't want to call it weird, unless his psychological state is way more messed up than what it looks from what I've head.

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Why should he know that Ange wouldn't force him into being Battler again? She has every reason to do so...him being her closest relative. If he was to reveal that the body of Battler was alive, he would have the obligation to, or at least feel it, to spent time with her...but he doesn't seem to feels any urge to do so.
Ange's options are:
- reject Toya because he isn't Batter's anymore
- accept Toya the way he is
- try to persuade Toya to accept her as his sister

In case she were to pick up option 3 Ange was 6 when Battler disappeared and she wasn't seeing him regularly.
Apart from trying to regain his affection what else she can require from him?
When she tried to contact him she had almost reached the age of majority, she doesn't need him to play the role of a parent.
She's rich so she doesn't need his money. He's still older than her and of major age so she can't impose him anything.

Now, maybe it's a matter of culture, but I don't see why he should be so contrary in meeting a bloodrelative and possibly developing affection for her, especially considering he knows this bloodrelative loved him and is probably very sad because she believes him to be dead.

While it's normal he can't feel affection for Ange because he doesn't really know her, it's the refusal of the idea to develop affection for her, to know her that's weird... unless Toya is normally avoiding people and doing his best not to develop affection or friendship for anyone.

In that case it's normal he doesn't want to meet anyone.

But if that's not the case he looks like a child that's escaping from home, a coward who's avoiding his own responsibilities and being deliberately mean to the people that cared about him.

He doesn't feel the urge to meet her so, even if she loved him and was saddened by his death and she was suffering and wanted to meet him, maybe merely to make sure he was still alive and so on, who cares?

... unless at the time he was an emotional mess who couldn't really think rationally he doesn't get my sympathy for acting in such a way.

At the same time I don't see how he can think that recovering Battler's memories, Battler would take possession of him. Memories are just data. Data can't take control of a body... unless it's a metaphor to say that knowing he was a survivor to the Rokkenjima incident would ruin his life.
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Old 2011-10-01, 19:49   Link #24779
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This would make a lot of sense actually. Well, mostly thematic sense mind you, but I think it would fit the story well.

Beatrice was never understood by Battler, but she WAS understood by Toya, who was an outsider to their relationship. It's certainly a nice way of looking at it. There isn't much evidence for it(and in fact there is evidence against it), but it's still kind of nice.
Well, accoding to my theory all the meta chara are Toya's creations. Since he seems to refuse to identify himself with Battler and, apparently, wants no part in his life Will can fit as his representation.. or, at least, he's a mental creation based on him.

He seems older than Battler (though maybe that's just me), he's not an alternate relative of the Ushiromiya family but a complete stranger like Toya feels he is, he's unwilling in dealing with Yasu's mistery (actually he's forced by Bern to deal with it), he has a cat (Hachijo Toya/Featherine had a cat as well... though her was black while his Diana should be white... or so it's drawn in the manga), he solves the mistery (as Toya likely did), in Ep 7 he seems to dislike Battler/place on him all the blame.

With Battler he has in common that he believes in the importance of the heart, he grows fond of an alternate version of Yasu and want to protect said alternate version, that he will receive a permanent injury, that's pretty straightforward in his speech. Also, although his hair are brown a wisp of it is red (though this might be a mere coincidence).

Actually all this can be merely coincidental, there are no proofs Will is based on Toya, it's just my pet theory which likely will never be proved or disporved unless we get more material about Umineko.
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Old 2011-10-01, 20:05   Link #24780
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Quote:
While it's normal he can't feel affection for Ange because he doesn't really know her, it's the refusal of the idea to develop affection for her, to know her that's weird...
Ange is the last remaining cornerstone of Battler's identity. What if meeting her causes all the "Battler-ness" to rush back and erase his Toya identity?

That's why he's afraid of meeting her.
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