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Old 2011-10-04, 16:53   Link #24841
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Doctors don't know everything; dissociative disorders are rare in the real world, and research done on them is very limited. They often don't fit into neat categories, so even though Touya's condition is made up, it does not mean it's entirely implausible that such a condition could exist. Also, the uniqueness of his condition is lampshaded by Yukari's initial angry reaction when she learned that Touya recovered Battler's memories yet still refused to meet her, as well as the subsequent explanation needed for her to understand why Touya made that decision.

Given his unique condition, I don't think that a responsible doctor could guarantee anything; and I don't think Touya's reaction to his situation is unrealistic, nor do I find his fears implausible or even entirely unfounded.
You know you're almost using Devil's proof to prove Toya's disease exist?

Anyway if Toya's disease is something not even doctors would know, I find extremely hard to believe that Ryukishi might know it, it's more likely he made it up doing your same reasoning: "it might exist, just because it hadn't been catalogued yet, no one can prove it doesn't". At the same time if he made it up he can give it any characteristic he wants and has no need for it to truly exist.

Either way, if Ryukishi made it up, I'm not really happy with his plan.
I never liked when authors made up unique psychological diseases for their purposes and I'm not going to start with Umineko. -_-
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Old 2011-10-04, 17:03   Link #24842
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
So you're just going to assume the interpretation which dictates that RK07 fucked up? Cut him a little slack... I mean, if you take the context it's pretty clear that he's talking about those two doors and applying the sentence to the third door is just us extrapolating on our own.
He fucked up regardless. There are two doors in the boiler room and absolutely nothing was mentioned about this second door. If the second door was locked then it should have been mentioned. Ryuukishi went a great length describing the various doors and all the keys that could open them. What's up with this second door?

-If it was locked, where is the key?
-If the key that locked is (unlikely) the same key that can lock the other door, why it wasn't specified?
-If the door was magically removed, why it wasn't stated?

What's the damn point in describing in details every other key and every other door if you then miss to tell about one?
As Renall explained before this isn't just a riddle for Battler, this is a riddle for the readers. Ryuukishi was supposed to create a challenge and we were supposed to solve it with whatever hole it was left open for us to use.

Ryuukishi fucked up because he left a giant hole open that made solving his great chained closed room riddle a trivial matter.

If I didn't know better and didn't assume he simply fucked up, I would have been satisfied with this explanation to solve the EP3 first twilight.

This was still EP3, whatever red could you use to deny this explanation? Whatever logic could you use to argue that it wasn't the right solution if not for a: "well of course Ryyuukishi simply forgot to mention that door"?
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Old 2011-10-04, 17:22   Link #24843
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It might work but it'd still be quite strange. The adults should have started to become suspicious about Kinzo's disappearance. As we know, he used to meet with the family without any problem. To come up with such a ridiculous plan after "vanishing"... well... I think most adults would definitely want to meet with Kinzo in person before accepting the orders. At any rate they might try to foil the plan as soon as they had more solid chances to prove Kinzo wasn't alive, way too risky. You can't expect people to perform that well under such circumstances.
Well, he disappeared only for 1 family conference. Although the siblings were likely suspicious the premise to the game might have been this year he would merely fake being angry and actually take part to the game. They might still be suspicious but not willing to risk accusing Krauss to hide Kinzo's death and then face an angry Kinzo (it's a fear they also had in one game... can't remember which one).

Actually, according to Krauss and Natsuhi's plan the siblings wouldn't really met with Kinzo... just believe he took part to the game. Maybe they believed Shannon's script would trick one of the cousins into thinking he had met Kinzo or something like that.

Of course Shannon's plan were different but, as said before, once the game was set, they wouldn't be able to openly argue what were supposed to be Kinzo's instructions.

Actually there's also the chance Natsuhi and Krauss feared they couldn't keep up the mummery up any further and were planning to use the game to persuade the siblings that Kinzo had disappeared. With no body and no proofs the siblings wouldn't be able to say that Kinzo was dead by more than a year (in the games Kinzo's body is burned or magically disappear which can be a hint to Krauss and Natsuhi wanting to get rid of 'Kinzo').
Krauss and Natsuhi could call the police and insist Kinzo was alive and that had vanished during the game. The siblings could have their own suspicions but no proofs.
If Kinzo's body was really burned when he died, it would be reduced to ashed by 1986 and therefore no one could find it.
The police would have to accept Kinzo left the house during the game, went closer to the sea and, due to the bad weather fall into the sea and disappeared.

Kinzo's disappearance and following death declaration would have probably been bad for Krauss but less bad that if he were to be discovered lying about Kinzo being still alive.

Too bad their plan didn't work as planned.

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I don't think she planned to directly kill everyone, but I think she planned to blow off the island in case her test failed.

in EP7 she said she took inspiration from Kinzo's plan and his magic and that she entrusted everything to fate, hoping for a miracle.
So In my opinion she really did it. She used the same Kinzo's magic for her plan, she prepared the bomb and she was ready to make it explode, of course she was hoping for a miracle to occur in which case she would flip the switch to off. That's basically what Kinzo always did for his gambles, or so they say. Anyway he wouldn't need a real bomb if he wasn't ready to use it.
Actually the bomb part leaves me mostly puzzled.
To be honest the bomb might have been pre existing in the military bases and Kinzo didn't have it to be turned inactive in order not to reveal about the bases.
Or he kept it not to gamble but merely to blow up the island if he'd been forced to leave it without being able to move away the gold.

In Umineko is also hard to trace a line between real intention and fantasy.
Yasu might have toyed with the idea to use it but never really planned to do so as Maria toyed with the idea of killing Rosa but never did or she could have actually been firm in her purpose to use it.

Since however I think the bomb had been switched on to cover the murders perpetrated by someone else, we'll never be able to prove if Yasu had the firm intention to use it and would be able to carry it on.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yasu must have prepared the bank accounts in case she lost the gamble.
You mean the bank accounts for the Sawada and Nanjo's sons and for Ange?
I tend to think those are merely fiction as it's unlikely Toya might have found out about them. But that's based on my belief that Ange's travel was also fiction so I guess you can disagree on this.[/QUOTE]
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Old 2011-10-04, 17:45   Link #24844
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You know you're almost using Devil's proof to prove Toya's disease exist?

Anyway if Toya's disease is something not even doctors would know, I find extremely hard to believe that Ryukishi might know it, it's more likely he made it up doing your same reasoning: "it might exist, just because it hadn't been catalogued yet, no one can prove it doesn't". At the same time if he made it up he can give it any characteristic he wants and has no need for it to truly exist.
We've been telling you Toya's condition was made up from the very beginning. However, even though it's fabricated, the illness is still within PLAUSIBLE PSYCHOLOGY. We're just going to have to give this to Ryukishi because Toya needs to have this fear, justified or not, for the story to work.
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Old 2011-10-04, 18:04   Link #24845
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Originally Posted by BettiePage View Post
I havent played episode 8 yet but does episode 8 shine any light on what roll Gohda has on this?

Gohda was not hired when Kinzo was alive. He was hired afterwards by Natsuhi to do the cooking, especially for the family gatherings. I guess the back ground checks and all that was handled by Genji.

All the servants at the time of Kinzo's death: Genji, Kumasawa, Shanon/Kanon & Nanjo was present when Kinzo died & Natsuhi and Krauss know that Kinzo is really dead.

Gohda is kept in the dark and cant serve Kinzo at all and he does not wear the golden eagle emblem.

So why is Genji in on all the deaths with the fantastical happenings? In Episode 1 where Kanon killed Nanjo went poof or in Episode 4 where Kinzo summons all the demons etc...

Wouldnt it make sense that Gohda is also in on it and knows that the real head is really Shanon/Kanon. Wouldnt Genji help select a cook who knows who the real head of the family was and is loyal to that person and not Krauss/Natsuhi?
I think Gohda's role is pretty simple - he's the only human on the island who doesn't know ANYTHING. He doesn't believe in Beatrice, and isn't part of any of the subplots hovering around the mansion at all - wrong place, wrong time to the max. At the same time, he provides another suspect, albeit an easy one to rule out, and provides a piece of fodder for the 13 death ritual, sparing a more important character.

He was hired entirely on Natsuhi's prerogative (seems she just really, really wanted a cook), though after Kinzo's death. According to his extra TIP, he was familiar with Kanon. Based on that TIP, one can assume that Yasu and Gensawajo perhaps considered letting him in on the secret, but decided he was either too much a jerk, or too much a liability.

Also, Gohda uses the Devil's Proof regarding keys and eyewiness accounts to disprove Kanon's story about Beatrice, and Kanon was described as :

At that time, the facial expression Kanon-san showed, eyes wide opened, I'll never forget it.
It was as though his face said: 'You'll never get away unharmed after saying those dreadful things', ...... as though frightened at the vision of a fool daredevil, ... a face like that.


...which I assume was Yasu's inspiration for including the red text, whether that was ... misguided or not. <_<
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Old 2011-10-04, 18:35   Link #24846
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, he disappeared only for 1 family conference. Although the siblings were likely suspicious the premise to the game might have been this year he would merely fake being angry and actually take part to the game.
He disappeared for a whole year. There is evidence that points to the fact the siblings used to meet him in other instances.
And after a whole year he doesn't show his face to anyone someone comes up with these crazy orders from him, but they yet don't see him say all that in person.

I personally wouldn't buy that.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Actually the bomb part leaves me mostly puzzled.
To be honest the bomb might have been pre existing in the military bases and Kinzo didn't have it to be turned inactive in order not to reveal about the bases.
Or he kept it not to gamble but merely to blow up the island if he'd been forced to leave it without being able to move away the gold.
Nope that can't be possible. The military base was on the kuwadorian side. What would be the point in auto-destruct the other side? Kinzo must have moved the explosives there as well as the ten tons of gold. Additionally he must have been the one who set up the switch to make the bomb go off.
That or Yasu did, or the bomb never existed, but what you speculate is simply not possible.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Umineko is also hard to trace a line between real intention and fantasy.
Yasu might have toyed with the idea to use it but never really planned to do so as Maria toyed with the idea of killing Rosa but never did or she could have actually been firm in her purpose to use it.
We will never know for sure. But the hints that Yasu planned all that and was serious about it are all there and pretty evident.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You mean the bank accounts for the Sawada and Nanjo's sons and for Ange?
I tend to think those are merely fiction as it's unlikely Toya might have found out about them. But that's based on my belief that Ange's travel was also fiction so I guess you can disagree on this.
You mean Kumasawa's son? There were about 20 lockers according to Nanjo's son.
I don't really think that it was just fiction because it would really make no sense if that was so. I mean what kind of justification Ryuukishi can provide for showing us something like that if it bore absolutely no relevance?

That wasn't even something inside the catbox of the rokkenjima incident.
If there's anything that's dubious is the fact that Ange's escapade was described in Touya's forgery. Not only it makes little sense, but the scene where that was hinted is dubious in itself.
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Old 2011-10-04, 18:59   Link #24847
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
He disappeared for a whole year. There is evidence that points to the fact the siblings used to meet him in other instances.
And after a whole year he doesn't show his face to anyone someone comes up with these crazy orders from him, but they yet don't see him say all that in person.

I personally wouldn't buy that.
Yup, there are hints the siblings were used to meet him more than once during the year, though no one seems to mention they tried to meet him after the previous family conference.

Basically they're two contrasting hints.
Why wouldn't the siblings try to meet Kinzo again? And if they did why didn't they mention each time they wanted to meet him they were told he was in a bad mood? It would have been more suspicious than saying that LAST YEAR father was in a bad mood and couldn't meet them.

Or am I remembering wrong?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Nope that can't be possible. The military base was on the kuwadorian side. What would be the point in auto-destruct the other side? Kinzo must have moved the explosives there as well as the ten tons of gold. Additionally he must have been the one who set up the switch to make the bomb go off.
That or Yasu did, or the bomb never existed, but what you speculate is simply not possible.
Ops, sorry, I really didn't remember it was said the bases was on the Kuwadorian side... was it said in Ep 7?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We will never know for sure. But the hints that Yasu planned all that and was serious about it are all there and pretty evident.
I think Yasu definitely considered it. Likely he even planned to. What I don't know if she would have the resolution to carry on her plan. But since Umineko is a story probably yes.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean Kumasawa's son? There were about 20 lockers according to Nanjo's son.
I don't really think that it was just fiction because it would really make no sense if that was so. I mean what kind of justification Ryuukishi can provide for showing us something like that if it bore absolutely no relevance?
*bang head against pc* Yes, that's what I meant.

I see it as a hint the number showed in Ep 3 referred to the code for a bank account, though I think the bank account would have been the one you 'win' if you solve the epitaph.
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Old 2011-10-04, 19:21   Link #24848
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
We've been telling you Toya's condition was made up from the very beginning. However, even though it's fabricated, the illness is still within PLAUSIBLE PSYCHOLOGY. We're just going to have to give this to Ryukishi because Toya needs to have this fear, justified or not, for the story to work.
Not really, the discussion was more about how it was believable/normal or not for Toya to act that way, and although I remember haguruma tossing in that Toya is a fictional character this went generally overlooked through all the discussion until Wanderer said 'If we suspend our disbelief and suppose this fictional disorder to actually have occured in Touya...'.

If the discussion had been from the beginning if the disease was fictional or not I would have agreed on it being fictional and be done with it.
The existence of a fictional disease in his world would have made his fear plausible... even if by the end of Umineko we learn he's apparently still Toya although he apparently remembers his past...

Also, the easiest psychological explanation would have been that Toya were scared to remeber because something traumatic happened to him.

It's pretty common if you had a amnesia tied to a traumatic episode (no matter what caused your amnesia) to be troubled by the idea of remembering because you really don't want to remember that fact.
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Old 2011-10-04, 20:14   Link #24849
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Not really, the discussion was more about how it was believable/normal or not for Toya to act that way, and although I remember haguruma tossing in that Toya is a fictional character this went generally overlooked through all the discussion until Wanderer said 'If we suspend our disbelief and suppose this fictional disorder to actually have occured in Touya...'.
Right, and in response, I and others brought up that it doesn't matter what he has so much as what Toya THINKS he has, and he has good reason to think what he does because he is having a legitimate existential crisis and is probably panicking. You were the one who brought up that psychology doesn't work that way, etc.
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Old 2011-10-04, 21:17   Link #24850
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Anyway if Toya's disease is something not even doctors would know, I find extremely hard to believe that Ryukishi might know it, it's more likely he made it up doing your same reasoning: "it might exist, just because it hadn't been catalogued yet, no one can prove it doesn't". At the same time if he made it up he can give it any characteristic he wants and has no need for it to truly exist.
Yeah and he can make up fictional characters like Krauss and give him whatever characteristics he wants; that's how fiction works. Just like with Touya's condition, the question isn't whether Krauss actually exists, but whether Krauss's existence is plausible.

What I'm saying is that rejecting the narrative value of Touya's condition on the grounds that it has not been documented to exist is the same as rejecting the narrative value of any fictional character or fictional anything just because it's fictional. However, if you find it so implausible that it fails to suspend your disbelief, then that's another story. So, do you find Touya's fictional condition to be that implausible?

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Can someone just analyze the actual Japanese text to determine if it's speaking specifically about the two non-boiler doors, or all the doors in the courtyard?

Regardless, I'm not sure anyone even checked those doors. Even if they did, it's not implausible to believe, depending on the type of door, that the boiler room door opens from the inside. If ep3 simply said both sets of doors to the basement were locked, there wouldn't even be an issue and it would settle the ambiguity. However, there may not even be ambiguity anywhere but the translation, so that's what I'd like to see checked first.
Yeah I just checked the Japanese (I'm not going to reproduce it here since I don't have a Japanese text hook for episodes 1-4). There's no major problems with the translation, but something routine which Witch Hunt did do was add the subject "the doors" to the sentence in question (Japanese often leaves the subject of sentences to context). Since both the sentence before and afterward are indisputably talking about only those two doors, it's pretty obvious that it's only the two doors that are being talked about in the middle sentence. Actually, I think it's pretty obvious in the English translation too, just a bit more so in the Japanese.

The problem is the reason given that they didn't have locks: They weren't needed since the courtyard was surrounded by the mansion. I think we all extrapolated this to logically apply to all 3 doors from the courtyard, since the boiler room door to the courtyard also meets this description.

I also rechecked episode 3 (English). It doesn't say anything about what is locked and what isn't; it merely says that the boiler room key was found (in some room I don't remember) and that the adults went there where they found Kinzo's corpse, the key to the next room, and (mentioned later) a letter. It's really quite rushed- one or two lines of text and that's it.

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He fucked up regardless. There are two doors in the boiler room and absolutely nothing was mentioned about this second door. If the second door was locked then it should have been mentioned. Ryuukishi went a great length describing the various doors and all the keys that could open them. What's up with this second door?
I don't entirely disagree with you; he should have addressed this detail more clearly, but it's still a far cry from the flagrant error you get from outright saying "hur dur all the doors to the courtyard have no locks".

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-If it was locked, where is the key?
-If the key that locked is (unlikely) the same key that can lock the other door, why it wasn't specified?
-If the door was magically removed, why it wasn't stated?
Options 1 and 3 are obviously not the case. But I don't see why option 2 is so unlikely; it's a custom house; why have 2 different keys needed for the same room when you can have one? Plus there's also the possibility that the boiler-courtyard door can only be locked from the inside.

Also, in episode 1 Genji suggested that the fact that the culprit had access to the boiler room meant that he or she had a master key, which would be a pretty obvious lie if the courtyard door was not lockable.

And I know I'm repeating myself, but it makes no sense that there would be a room with one lockable door and another door with no lock.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This was still EP3, whatever red could you use to deny this explanation? Whatever logic could you use to argue that it wasn't the right solution if not for a: "well of course Ryyuukishi simply forgot to mention that door"?
As a matter of fact, there was no red saying that any of the doors were even locked at all.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-10-04 at 21:44.
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Old 2011-10-05, 02:17   Link #24851
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I think in Episode 3's manga Ryukishi had the boiler room closed room corrected, not by locking it though, by blocking the doors to the courtyard with something. Similar to how the parlor was made into a closed room in episode 6. I'm not completely sure of this since it's been awhile. but it's something I remember hearing.
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Old 2011-10-05, 07:13   Link #24852
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As a matter of fact, there was no red saying that any of the doors were even locked at all.
Yes of course, but unless you assumed everyone was an accomplice it was impossible to think of that case. Which however was later proved to be quite possible, but that's yet another thing I can't really think as a good idea. When you can assume that anyone and everyone could be lying about the closed rooms all kind of options become available and all kind of smarter tricks become pointless.

Think about the very case of the episode3 chained closed rooms: we are practically certain now that the trick used was Shannon moving to the chapel after being discovered first. It would be brilliant, if it wasn't for the fact that...

1) If only Battler's perspective is reliable and it is possible that everyone else can lie, then this particular case can simply be explained with everyone lying about it. It wouldn't be different from the first twilight in EP2.

2) If the adults could be fooled by a fake corpse, then the presence of Shannon and her "magic trick" wasn't necessary at all. Anyone could achieve the same result simply by faking their own death in the last room. Naturally a simple red could expose it, but then it's like admitting that the characters inside the game are aware of the metaworld, and that's pretty lame, even if it's a fiction inside a fiction.


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I think in Episode 3's manga Ryukishi had the boiler room closed room corrected, not by locking it though, by blocking the doors to the courtyard with something. Similar to how the parlor was made into a closed room in episode 6. I'm not completely sure of this since it's been awhile. but it's something I remember hearing.
Well if this was true it would be a confirmation of a slip up. Similarly to what was done for the "misscarriage" issue.
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Old 2011-10-05, 08:20   Link #24853
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Did they correct it for the PS3 game as well? It would be pretty silly if he kept making the same mistake trough different versions, you'd have no idea which one is the most accurate one.
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Old 2011-10-05, 09:36   Link #24854
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I know for sure that "misscarriage" was corrected in the PS3 version. As for the rest... I have no clue, but I doubt there was any significant change.
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Old 2011-10-05, 11:47   Link #24855
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes of course, but unless you assumed everyone was an accomplice it was impossible to think of that case. Which however was later proved to be quite possible, but that's yet another thing I can't really think as a good idea. When you can assume that anyone and everyone could be lying about the closed rooms all kind of options become available and all kind of smarter tricks become pointless.
Exactly my point. The adults wouldn't just ignore that second boiler room door, so in order for the door to be unlocked (or to not have a lock at all) you would have to assume the adults were lying.
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Old 2011-10-05, 12:11   Link #24856
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The point is that if ryuukishi didn't just forgot about that door then the adults either ignored the second door completely, which is lame, or they noticed it but that was simply not told to the readers for no reason, which is even lamer.

So assuming that this was slip up from Ryuukishi's part who forgot the door's existence is the least grave among the scenarios that I can speculate really. The other options are even worse in my opinion.
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Old 2011-10-05, 12:32   Link #24857
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Right, and in response, I and others brought up that it doesn't matter what he has so much as what Toya THINKS he has, and he has good reason to think what he does because he is having a legitimate existential crisis and is probably panicking. You were the one who brought up that psychology doesn't work that way, etc.
... which isn't the same as saying he has a fictional disease.
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Old 2011-10-05, 12:35   Link #24858
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah and he can make up fictional characters like Krauss and give him whatever characteristics he wants; that's how fiction works. Just like with Touya's condition, the question isn't whether Krauss actually exists, but whether Krauss's existence is plausible.

What I'm saying is that rejecting the narrative value of Touya's condition on the grounds that it has not been documented to exist is the same as rejecting the narrative value of any fictional character or fictional anything just because it's fictional. However, if you find it so implausible that it fails to suspend your disbelief, then that's another story. So, do you find Touya's fictional condition to be that implausible?
Sorry but haven't I already told many times I do?
From the way it's presented I find it implausible. Maybe reading it by myself I'll notice something that will made me revise my opinion but, so far, from what all people said about it, all I can think is Ryukishi hadn't done a good work with it.
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Old 2011-10-05, 13:29   Link #24859
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Exactly my point. The adults wouldn't just ignore that second boiler room door, so in order for the door to be unlocked (or to not have a lock at all) you would have to assume the adults were lying.
Battler meta or otherwise wouldnt have ignored the door either so he's in it as well. Battler didn't switch sides in ep5, he did it in ep3. Actually he did it in ep2 when he surrendered, everything else has been a ploy.
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Old 2011-10-05, 14:05   Link #24860
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Sorry but haven't I already told many times I do?
From the way it's presented I find it implausible. Maybe reading it by myself I'll notice something that will made me revise my opinion but, so far, from what all people said about it, all I can think is Ryukishi hadn't done a good work with it.
I'm just helping you frame your argument that Touya's condition is implausible to the point that it destroys your suspension of disbelief. Because "it's fictional" is barely even a start.
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