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Old 2011-10-07, 16:13   Link #24941
goldendust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
For the first 3 episodes it's because he thinks Beatrice is being cruel. He seems passionate, but he's really just being juvenile and half-hearted about the whole fight. With Ange in episode 4, he finally realizes that there was something real at stake (what I mean by "real" will make more sense with the end of episode 8).

The main reason for the transformation he goes through when learning the truth is kind of simple; he figures out that Beatrice (Yasu) is actually a decent person, and that her motives are not as malicious as they initially appear to be. Battler's transformation and acceptance of Beatrice is actually a huge hint that Yasu is innocent. His approach to helping Ange also changes from defeating the witch (revealing the truth) to protecting the witch (hiding the truth). Basically, he figured out that Beatrice was hiding the truth and why she was doing it, and he decided he should do the same for Ange's sake.
About Yasu being a decent person. Well it seems more like he/she is seem more deranged than malicious. Just look at this red text.


Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.

And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.


More so we seen in Bernkastel's "truth" that Yasu seems dead inside. There is no malicious intent like revenge/causing fear, not even the basic feeling of pleasure of playing this murderous game.

The problem I have is how Battler can go full on forgiveness and acceptance without any contemplation the moment he finds out the truth.


About Battler and Ange, I think that he might be guising her away from the truth since she wants revenge like Amakusa said. Yasu isn't a villain in the sense of being an insane mass murderer like Ange wishes that Eva was

Telling Ange the truth wouldn't help her at all.

Quote:

I basically agree with AuraTwilight on this. Yasu never killed anyone, nor did she ever try to. I think Yasu's "horrible crime" was revealing the gold to the relatives, which lead them to start a bloodbath on their own. As Yasu is characterized, it makes sense to think she would blame herself in such a scenario.
What about this red gem where Beatrice tries to convey to Battler who she is.

You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you

The games are all about how Yasu wants to convey something to Battler. I think this red truth was suppose to be a big insight into the nature of Beatrice.

Even in the "truth" Bernkastel shows, Yasu was prepared to kill 13 people if nobody found the gold than blow herself up. I do think that is valid portrayal of Yasu. Like Eva said, she/he is insane.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
In what sense is Yasu "extremely deranged"? You'll have to define that.
Considering that at a young age she made up a "witch" to explain why her things go missing. Tries to become a witch herself, grows pretty obsessed with Battler and the promise he made, uses her inner with persona to transfer emotional pain, creation of fake younger brother to comfort herself/himself in addition to having gender identity problems.

I do think that Yasu counts as "extremely deranged" which accumulates at 1986.

Quote:
This is a girl too timid to make a phonecall to a boy she liked and you expect me to believe that she can murder eighteen people, including people she loved and an innocent nine year old girl, without any hesitation?
Claire mentioned in place of Yasu that she didn't think that she would commit such crimes.

Will mentioned that things took a turn for the worse when he solved the epitaph and in addition that Battler's return sparked the crime.

Claire mentioned that if it was any other year, no crime would have happened. Which leads me to think that her mental state was far from stable. Her mental state anyway was shown to be unbalanced way before the crime happened, events leading up to the crime(the countdown) was just adding fuel to the flame.

Quote:
The games are based on an incident that REALLY happened. Who was the murderer in the real world?
I read the whole games in one go so maybe I might have to do some rereading.

Though it seems that the bottles were created by the culprit as message to find the truth(given the ending).

Which isn't unlike Beato's murder game she played with Battler.
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Old 2011-10-07, 16:39   Link #24942
Cao Ni Ma
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Another point, in that metaphor about Ange finding out the truth, its implied that Eva knew this truth as well. That Battler knows the truth as well. That they together try to impede Ange from finding it.

The rift between Eva and Ange happened because Ange believed that Eva really had something to do with the murder. If the truth was as simple as "Random maid killed everyone because she was crazy" dont you think that Eva would have just told her that? Something like "Ange, I know you hate me because you think I had something to do with this. Even though you dont believe me, I'll tell it to you so I dont have to carry it with me to hell. A random maid killed everyone, killed your parents, killed my husband and son, killed everyone. Im sorry I couldn't have done anything to stop it"
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Old 2011-10-07, 17:20   Link #24943
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I do not think the truth is simple as "Random maid killed everyone because she was crazy". It is entirely possible that some of the parents took advantage of Yasu's game for their own ends. However I still think that Yasu was essential to the whole incident.

Also it could also be that Eva done something shameful herself such as accidentally shot Battler or someone in paranoia. That she is "innocent" but deeply shamed of her behavior that people would judge her for it harshly.

Or simply that the experience was too traumatic to want to share it with a little kid she had to take care of. For example you do not see Rosa telling Maria about her past with her father. Some adults do not open up to kids.

Another major factor why their relationship went sour was that Eva was too absorbed into own sadness and bitterness to think of Ange. That maybe when she felt ready to tell Ange, their relationship got too sour for it to make any difference.
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Old 2011-10-07, 17:26   Link #24944
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Quote:
What about this red gem where Beatrice tries to convey to Battler who she is.

You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you

The games are all about how Yasu wants to convey something to Battler. I think this red truth was suppose to be a big insight into the nature of Beatrice.

Even in the "truth" Bernkastel shows, Yasu was prepared to kill 13 people if nobody found the gold than blow herself up. I do think that is valid portrayal of Yasu. Like Eva said, she/he is insane.
Well, see, this Red Truth only applies to EP4, a fictional reality.

And Yasu wrote the games where she is the culprit, even if she isn't the culprit in real life. If she's making herself a martyred villain to protect someone else, this makes sense.

Quote:
Considering that at a young age she made up a "witch" to explain why her things go missing. Tries to become a witch herself, grows pretty obsessed with Battler and the promise he made, uses her inner with persona to transfer emotional pain, creation of fake younger brother to comfort herself/himself in addition to having gender identity problems.

I do think that Yasu counts as "extremely deranged" which accumulates at 1986.
In fairness, lots of children make up bogeymen and imaginary friends to excuse their actions. "I didn't break the vase, it was my invisible friend!"

Yasu is basically emotionally stunted and pretty much abused and neglected, so she took it WAAAY too far.

However, there's a huge stretch between being obsessed with pretend and being A PSYCHO MASS MURDERER.

Quote:
Claire mentioned in place of Yasu that she didn't think that she would commit such crimes.

Will mentioned that things took a turn for the worse when he solved the epitaph and in addition that Battler's return sparked the crime.

Claire mentioned that if it was any other year, no crime would have happened. Which leads me to think that her mental state was far from stable. Her mental state anyway was shown to be unbalanced way before the crime happened, events leading up to the crime(the countdown) was just adding fuel to the flame.
And she never elaborates on what her 'crime' is.

And the tragedy still happens even in worlds where she's Lion, on the same year in the same circumstances.

Meaning that Yasu probably isn't responsible but feels responsible, such as revealing the gold to the adults.
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Old 2011-10-07, 17:51   Link #24945
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
There is a certain scene in EP2 that foreshadows Beatrice 2, she might really think that this Beatrice might be doing the actual crimes too.
Sure. So yeah even if she met a "Beatrice" there's a few too many possibilities as to who it could be for her to be sure. It totally explains her paranoia.

And edit your post so that it quotes me right.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
About Yasu being a decent person. Well it seems more like he/she is seem more deranged than malicious. Just look at this red text.


Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.

And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.
I'm not sure how this makes a point that she's deranged instead of simply a decent person. Decent people meet these reds pretty much automatically.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
More so we seen in Bernkastel's "truth" that Yasu seems dead inside. There is no malicious intent like revenge/causing fear, not even the basic feeling of pleasure of playing this murderous game...

...Even in the "truth" Bernkastel shows, Yasu was prepared to kill 13 people if nobody found the gold than blow herself up. I do think that is valid portrayal of Yasu. Like Eva said, she/he is insane.
Things in the episode 7 Tea Party should be taken with a grain of salt. Remember that Bernkastel is evil.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
The problem I have is how Battler can go full on forgiveness and acceptance without any contemplation the moment he finds out the truth.
I always thought he was contemplating while he was a metaphorical sword-impaled hunk of bloody meat, and his transformation was the result of that contemplation.

RK07 wanted to keep Battler's thought process in accepting Beatrice hidden. He wanted us to figure it out ourselves.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
What about this red gem where Beatrice tries to convey to Battler who she is.

You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you

The games are all about how Yasu wants to convey something to Battler. I think this red truth was suppose to be a big insight into the nature of Beatrice.
As AuraTwilight said, it could just be entirely a statement in the fictional context, but I think it is probably more than that. So big insight, sure, but there are so many ways to interpret this, especially since the word "kill" often holds a unique meaning when Beatrice uses it. And
Spoiler for latter half of episode 8:
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Claire mentioned in place of Yasu that she didn't think that she would commit such crimes.
Even Claire's point of view is subjective. As I said before, I think Yasu sees herself as responsible for the crimes, even though she didn't directly commit them. I haven't read that part in Japanese myself, but I bet the word used here was 罪, which could just as easily be translated as "sin" instead of "crime".

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Will mentioned that things took a turn for the worse when he solved the epitaph and in addition that Battler's return sparked the crime.
How exactly Battler's return resulted in the incident I cannot be so sure of, but I don't think it caused her to go on a deranged killing spree, at least.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Claire mentioned that if it was any other year, no crime would have happened. Which leads me to think that her mental state was far from stable. Her mental state anyway was shown to be unbalanced way before the crime happened, events leading up to the crime(the countdown) was just adding fuel to the flame.
Yes, lots of things happened in 1986. Battler's return was a major one. George's marriage proposal was another. And the siblings' respective financial crises all coming to a head at the same time was yet another.

And she's not as deranged as you think; since she's the one who always has to set up the tricks to convince other people that witches are real, she knows better than anyone exactly how not real they really are. It's even embedded in the rules of her "game".

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I read the whole games in one go so maybe I might have to do some rereading.

Though it seems that the bottles were created by the culprit as message to find the truth(given the ending).

Which isn't unlike Beato's murder game she played with Battler.
Yeah, I read the game for the first time all in one go myself, a couple months ago, and a lot of my perceptions were similar to what yours are now. They have changed since then.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And the tragedy still happens even in worlds where she's Lion, on the same year in the same circumstances.
I had forgotten about this point. It's a very good one.
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Old 2011-10-07, 18:01   Link #24946
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, see, this Red Truth only applies to EP4, a fictional reality.

And Yasu wrote the games where she is the culprit, even if she isn't the culprit in real life. If she's making herself a martyred villain to protect someone else, this makes sense.
Yet the general idea of the games to figure out the truth isn't it? Isn't using the games how Battler found out the truth about everything? In fact isn't that we readers suppose to do? Take all of the game's input and form our own truth.

Quote:
In fairness, lots of children make up bogeymen and imaginary friends to excuse their actions. "I didn't break the vase, it was my invisible friend!"

Yasu is basically emotionally stunted and pretty much abused and neglected, so she took it WAAAY too far.

However, there's a huge stretch between being obsessed with pretend and being A PSYCHO MASS MURDERER.
I never had an imaginary friend/bogeymen nor do I know anyone who has. I cannot judge how it relates to being a murderer. Though I will jsut use the games as an example.

However isn't so much as pretend being the problem, it is more Yasu's severe problems coping with reality and dealing with his issues in a healthy manner.

For example in EP3. Eva had her own inner witch to help her deal with her harsh reality. Though it doesn't compare to Yasu who has multiple inner selves and lives a double life.

Yet in the third game,when Eva saw the gold, it implied that it made her temporary mad due to all of pent up emotions invested into her inner self. It is implied with the text that it is Eva. Which lead her to commit a few murders.

I think Yasu could be the same. That he/she had some kind trigger that lead him/her to commit the crime.


Quote:
And she never elaborates on what her 'crime' is.

And the tragedy still happens even in worlds where she's Lion, on the same year in the same circumstances.

Meaning that Yasu probably isn't responsible but feels responsible, such as revealing the gold to the adults.
Given the insane amount of alternate worlds, it is not surprising that there ones where Lion might cause the crime again.

Also I could see someone like George taking advantage of Yasu's game or state of mind for their own gain.

Do you think the "truth"is closer to what Berncastel showed Ange?
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Old 2011-10-07, 18:22   Link #24947
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

I'm not sure how this makes a point that she's deranged instead of simply a decent person. Decent people meet these reds pretty much automatically.
Except it clearly said she murdered before. If we look at it we can rule out the motives of

-causing fear
-revenge
-fun

Which leads me to think that murdering was just a means to an end.



Quote:
I always thought he was contemplating while he was a metaphorical sword-impaled hunk of bloody meat, and his transformation was the result of that contemplation.
Maybe but it seems kind of like odd considering we as readers should be able to understand Battler.

I mean he has been basically the reader's avatar as far as the games are concerned.


Quote:
RK07 wanted to keep Battler's thought process in accepting Beatrice hidden. He wanted us to figure it out ourselves.
I do try. To be honest while most of it was my observation, I honestly felt confused when that happened. Since for four games, it seems like we were really getting to know Battler as a person than he makes all of odd choices and take on things.

Quote:
As AuraTwilight said, it could just be entirely a statement in the fictional context, but I think it is probably more than that. So big insight, sure, but there are so many ways to interpret this, especially since the word

"kill" often holds a unique meaning when Beatrice uses it. And
Spoiler for latter half of episode 8:
Though in the clear context of the situation. I think we are suppose to read that as kill. It was suppsoe to be hint on the nature of the witch and what she is. A hint that the game will resolved even if Battler is the only one on the island.

Also I haven't read the latter half of episode 8, though it is possible that she used that out of context. For example Bernkastel was referring to the Battler that Asumu gave birth to which was a stillborn.

Quote:
Even Claire's point of view is subjective. As I said before, I think Yasu sees herself as responsible for the crimes, even though she didn't directly commit them. I haven't read that part in Japanese myself, but I bet the word used here was 罪, which could just as easily be translated as "sin" instead of "crime".
Really? Maybe then I might have to rethink my interpretation.

Quote:
How exactly Battler's return resulted in the incident I cannot be so sure of, but I don't think it caused her to go on a deranged killing spree, at least.
Being a trigger to start the murder game is my guess.

Quote:
Yes, lots of things happened in 1986. Battler's return was a major one. George's marriage proposal was another. And the siblings' respective financial crises all coming to a head at the same time was yet another.

And she's not as deranged as you think; since she's the one who always has to set up the tricks to convince other people that witches are real, she knows better than anyone exactly how not real they really are. It's even embedded in the rules of her "game".
That too which is why I think it is possible for some of the adults to take advantage of the game Yasu set up.

Also it depends on Yasu's goal. I do not think it is to convince people that witches exist becasue she herself is one. Rather she takes in the role of one to excute her game.

Quote:
Yeah, I read the game for the first time all in one go myself, a couple months ago, and a lot of my perceptions were similar to what yours are now. They have changed since then.
Maybe

Last edited by goldendust; 2011-10-08 at 04:58.
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Old 2011-10-07, 18:52   Link #24948
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Yet the general idea of the games to figure out the truth isn't it? Isn't using the games how Battler found out the truth about everything? In fact isn't that we readers suppose to do? Take all of the game's input and form our own truth.
The games are to find out the truth of Beato, and the truth she wants Battler to reach. It's not enough to understand the games, but also to understand her, and she's aiming at Battler specifically, who has a slightly different and more personal knowledgebase than we do. If she wants him to see through her ruse and learn of her martyrdom and keep everyone else deceived with her "I did it" game, then it makes sense why Battler starts helping her hide the truth.

Quote:
never had an imaginary friend/bogeymen nor do I know anyone who has. I cannot judge how it relates to being a murderer. Though I will jsut use the games as an example.

However isn't so much as pretend being the problem, it is more Yasu's severe problems coping with reality and dealing with his issues in a healthy manner.

For example in EP3. Eva had her own inner witch to help her deal with her harsh reality. Though it doesn't compare to Yasu who has multiple inner selves and lives a double life.

Yet in the third game,when Eva saw the gold, it implied that it made her temporary mad due to all of pent up emotions invested into her inner self. It is implied with the text that it is Eva. Which lead her to commit a few murders.

I think Yasu could be the same. That he/she had some kind trigger that lead him/her to commit the crime.
If you thought Eva was the murderer of EP3 then you totally misunderstood EVERYTHING.

Quote:
Given the insane amount of alternate worlds, it is not surprising that there ones where Lion might cause the crime again.
The point Bern was showing is that the tragedy happens in ALL OF THEM though. There's only One Truth, regardless of what fictions or alternate worlds say. The incredibly strong implication is that the tragedy is outside of Yasu's control. Bernkastel told her to her face that no matter what she did, she can't have a happy live and survive 1986.

Quote:
Given the insane amount of alternate worlds, it is not surprising that there ones where Lion might cause the crime again.
Basically. I'm pretty confident that it has to be either George or Battler. I prefer George because I'd like to trust Battler's characterization.

But Battler theory is pretty great.

Quote:
Except it clearly said she murdered before.
Fictional realities don't count. Prove that Yasu killed someone in a world that isn't a product of her own imagination.

Quote:
Maybe but it seems kind of like odd considering we as readers should be able to understand Battler.

I mean he has been basically the reader's avatar as far as the games are concerned.
Not really. Battler stopped being someone we could understand on a 1:1 correlation the second he became a Sorcerer. That's what being a witch MEANS.
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Old 2011-10-07, 18:52   Link #24949
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Beatrice is thoroughly one of the best parts, if not the best part, of Umineko. She was awesome the first time through, but going over episodes 1-4 again knowing what's truly behind her makes her even more compelling. She dominates in the meta-world, the world of illusions, but can't even show her face in the real world; she somehow manages to be firmly extant and completely illusory at the same time. It's really cool. And to know that she is actually the shadow of a real person, a very unassuming real person, makes her all the more interesting.
I actually found it pretty exciting too, to get back to certain parts of the story very early on that hinted towards Yasu's rather low opinion of her true self. Especially the meta- and fantasy-scenes are quite cool and add a lot to the whole character, not deluding Beatrice in the slightest.
Just two scenes in EP3 for example...in the manga version they made my skin crawl. One was where Virgilia is trying to talk Beatrice into "returning to her true form" and becoming "what she once was". Beatrice responds to that, that she does not want to return to that pitiful form. Back in EP3 this was to most people just Beatrice not wanting to give up her powers to Virgilia...but it could actually be seen as Kumasawa talking to Yasu about dropping the act.
Also EP3 in the Tea Party, where scary Lambda threatens her to take away her magic and return her to that pitiful girl that wished every night to become a witch (which was hinted in earlier Episodes as well)...in the manga they show her slowly dissolving Beatrice's magic...which is actually showing how there is nothing so great behind Beatrice.
I don't think it destroys the character of Beato at all...it rather adds depth to all those scenes invloving her and her struggle. They tie the meta- and fantasy-events not only into a general narrative but also in a development of Yasu.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
RK07 stated a lot of hints about the story in his last interview with Keya. He also said the manga version of the later chapters would probably have more clues as to what actually happened.
Well he said they are planning to include something like this, but because it's still so far in the future he won't guarantee. But he said that they would probably add visualisations to the battle between Will and Claire to make it clear which mystery-stories Ryűkishi was alluding to.

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Originally Posted by Kani View Post
Where did he explain this? That's quite a complicated murder. I wonder how he could think we would be able to guess something like that?
Well he basically overestimated both his talent for cross-references and his readers familiarity with mystery novels. If you read my translation of the interview you might guess that he expected a crowd of mystery fans to gather around him and play exactly that game that Beatrice announced in her letters...the problem is that most of any readership won't be THAT knowledgable especially not in an area like visual novels.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Doesn't ep2 sort of suggest Rosa may have actually met Beatrice in person right at the start, and then again later? Granted, she might not know who she is, but unless that part was all complete jack, she'd met her before she had opportunity to lie about Kinzo.
Yeah her relationship with Beatrice is actually pretty hinted at in EP2 already. Not only is there the scene where she meets Beatrice in the garden, there is also a scene where she gets a sudden headache when talking to Maria in front of the portrait, muttering some stuff that it couldn't be (in the manga it is hinted that she was thinking of Beatrice#2). She also keeps asking Maria about the location of Beatrice, as if it is really important for her to meet her. Even when they are escaping the island she is still asking about it.
In EP7 Kinzô said to Yasutrice that she was the spitting image of her mother, especially when wearing her dress. So I think it'd be possible that Rosa was really scared after that meeting in the garden in EP2. EP3 showed how scarred she was from that incident back in 1968. So a meeting with somebody who closely resembles the woman whose death she feels responsible for, so far as to say that she murdered her, would probably make her confused enough to commit to quite strange actions.
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Old 2011-10-07, 19:46   Link #24950
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I actually found it pretty exciting too, to get back to certain parts of the story very early on that hinted towards Yasu's rather low opinion of her true self. Especially the meta- and fantasy-scenes are quite cool and add a lot to the whole character, not deluding Beatrice in the slightest.
Just two scenes in EP3 for example...in the manga version they made my skin crawl. One was where Virgilia is trying to talk Beatrice into "returning to her true form" and becoming "what she once was". Beatrice responds to that, that she does not want to return to that pitiful form. Back in EP3 this was to most people just Beatrice not wanting to give up her powers to Virgilia...but it could actually be seen as Kumasawa talking to Yasu about dropping the act.
Also EP3 in the Tea Party, where scary Lambda threatens her to take away her magic and return her to that pitiful girl that wished every night to become a witch (which was hinted in earlier Episodes as well)...in the manga they show her slowly dissolving Beatrice's magic...which is actually showing how there is nothing so great behind Beatrice.
I don't think it destroys the character of Beato at all...it rather adds depth to all those scenes invloving her and her struggle. They tie the meta- and fantasy-events not only into a general narrative but also in a development of Yasu.
I agree completely. In my opinion, thinking that Chiru "assassinated her character" is vastly missing the point.
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Old 2011-10-07, 19:58   Link #24951
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I agree completely. In my opinion, thinking that Chiru "assassinated her character" is vastly missing the point.
You are missing the point of why people didn't like it as well. People liked her because they like fun badass characters. If you take away their badassery to give them development, yes it makes them more complex characters. But sometimes people don't want complex. They want stuff blowing up.

I mean, that would be like having philosophical debates during Independence Day. Yes maybe the aliens don't deserve to get blown up but hey it's Independence Day. We want to see Will Smith blow shit up.

So when people say that chiru assassinated her character, what they mean is "Chiru took away the aspects I enjoyed from her character and gave her depth. The depth is well done, but really it's not something I enjoy and it takes away what I enjoyed before, which was the thing I enjoyed the most about the novel."

Which is a fair point really. No one is saying it was badly done, just that it made them stop caring about the character. Which...is just an opinion.
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Old 2011-10-07, 20:18   Link #24952
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You are missing the point of why people didn't like it as well. People liked her because they like fun badass characters. If you take away their badassery to give them development, yes it makes them more complex characters. But sometimes people don't want complex. They want stuff blowing up.
Yea, but I'm not responding to those complaints.

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No one is saying it was badly done
Actually, yes, some people are.
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Old 2011-10-07, 20:22   Link #24953
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Which is a fair point really. No one is saying it was badly done, just that it made them stop caring about the character. Which...is just an opinion.
That of course, though I'd argue about the decrease of badassery in her character. You could say that the dimension her character got made her less easy to idolize as a "cool antagonist", but I'd say that this character was broken even before Chiru...basically it only existed in the interim of EP2. EP3 broke her character quite severely and only some people were fooled into believing that she was actually acting throughout all of EP3.
The "badass Beatrice" was just a construct that the readers were supposed to pick up but was being rivaled by other depictions again pretty early on.

So of course it is an opinion to like the badass uber-antagonist Beatrice the most, but it's not like it was CHIRU which destroyed her, it was an ongoing process.
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Old 2011-10-07, 20:32   Link #24954
AuraTwilight
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Not to mention EP4 where she got all suicidal and shit in the first place.
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Old 2011-10-07, 20:43   Link #24955
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That of course, though I'd argue about the decrease of badassery in her character. You could say that the dimension her character got made her less easy to idolize as a "cool antagonist", but I'd say that this character was broken even before Chiru...basically it only existed in the interim of EP2. EP3 broke her character quite severely and only some people were fooled into believing that she was actually acting throughout all of EP3.
The "badass Beatrice" was just a construct that the readers were supposed to pick up but was being rivaled by other depictions again pretty early on.

So of course it is an opinion to like the badass uber-antagonist Beatrice the most, but it's not like it was CHIRU which destroyed her, it was an ongoing process.
Definitely. But Chiru was the "point of no return" so to speak.

It comes down to "if you average how cool she was between 1-4 and 5-8, both have high and low points but 1-4 had a longer coolness period while 5-8 had a much worse depressing period."

So to sum up, she wasn't broken pre-episode 5, but she was about to break. Just barely holding on. Then Chiru broke it in a way it couldn't be put back together(which was one of the themes episode 6 brought up).

Also the signs of destruction pre-chiru could be brushed away by people before because they didn't have enough info(save for the end of episode 4, that was hard to ignore). But yeah, the "Chiru destroyed Beatrice" thing is more like "Chiru destroyed her more than the first 4 episodes did" since it's pretty obvious what people are referring to and elaborating on it just makes the message longer for no particular reason.
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Old 2011-10-07, 21:03   Link #24956
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If you thought Eva was the murderer of EP3 then you totally misunderstood EVERYTHING.
I think she's a murderer in episode 3. I think she killed Rosa, Maria, Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi (maybe), Krauss, and Natsuhi. And Battler of course. She did not kill Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, George, or Nanjo.

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Yeah her relationship with Beatrice is actually pretty hinted at in EP2 already. Not only is there the scene where she meets Beatrice in the garden, there is also a scene where she gets a sudden headache when talking to Maria in front of the portrait, muttering some stuff that it couldn't be (in the manga it is hinted that she was thinking of Beatrice#2). She also keeps asking Maria about the location of Beatrice, as if it is really important for her to meet her. Even when they are escaping the island she is still asking about it.
In EP7 Kinzô said to Yasutrice that she was the spitting image of her mother, especially when wearing her dress. So I think it'd be possible that Rosa was really scared after that meeting in the garden in EP2. EP3 showed how scarred she was from that incident back in 1968. So a meeting with somebody who closely resembles the woman whose death she feels responsible for, so far as to say that she murdered her, would probably make her confused enough to commit to quite strange actions.
Well, you could also interpret this to mean she was simply getting mysterious letters from "Beatrice", especially if the letters have information that only Beatrice#2 should know. One idea I had that I didn't mention earlier was that perhaps the letters were delivered to Rosa via Maria, but Maria didn't tell her anything else about who Beatrice might be. Since you were just saying that Rosa was constantly asking Maria where Beatrice was, this actually makes a ton of sense.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Except it clearly said she murdered before.
Well, I don't commit murders for pleasure either because... I don't commit murders at all.

Or you can say that the "murders" she committed are contextual to her stories.

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Maybe but it seems kind of like odd considering we as readers should be able to understand Battler.

I mean he has been basically the reader's avatar as far as the games are concerned.

I do try. To be honest while most of it was my observation, I honestly felt confused when that happened. Since for four games, it seems like we were really getting to know Battler as a person than he makes all of odd choices and take on things.
Yeah, and he stopped being the reader's avatar at exactly that point. Remember that Featherine said that it wouldn't be interesting to look at the story from Battler's point of view any more because he was the game master now (in other words, because he now knew too much)? That's why Ange became the reader's avatar from episode 6 onwards.

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Though in the clear context of the situation. I think we are suppose to read that as kill. It was supposed to be hint on the nature of the witch and what she is. A hint that the game will resolved even if Battler is the only one on the island.
In that case it's only in the context of fiction.

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Also it depends on Yasu's goal. I do not think it is to convince people that witches exist because she herself is one. Rather she takes in the role of one to execute her game.
I'm not really talking about the "murder game" specifically. Her actions that asserted her status as a witch began long before 1986.
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Old 2011-10-07, 21:18   Link #24957
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
She did not kill Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, George, or Nanjo.
And, because Ryűkishi seems to regard the manga and the novel as an official source which aids the understanding of the VN and sometimes updates some mistakes:
絵羽は秀吉を殺していない。 (Eva did not kill Hideyoshi.)

While we're there, they also updated one line in Eva-Beato's web of red. The line 以上、15人は死亡。(This means nothing less than that 15 people have died.) is no longer represented in red (probably because ShKanon is among those "15").

Quote:
Since you were just saying that Rosa was constantly asking Maria where Beatrice was, this actually makes a ton of sense.
That is a possibility. Though it is implied that it was at least planned to meet somebody in the rose garden and choose the co-culprit then...but of course it could be that Beatrice only communicated with Rosa via mail.
Though I'd say asking about her location mirrors how Rosa saw Maria as her trusted companion and how she planned her to be her line of communication towards the adults...which mirrors in Maria changing behaviour almost 180° when "channeling Beatrice". She didn't even care to make her talk like a child in those scenes...see the fact that she couldn't even remember the word messenger but was perfectly fine with reading out a letter containing complicated Kanji.
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Old 2011-10-07, 23:02   Link #24958
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And, because Ryűkishi seems to regard the manga and the novel as an official source which aids the understanding of the VN and sometimes updates some mistakes:
絵羽は秀吉を殺していない。 (Eva did not kill Hideyoshi.)
Interesting. Well, I still think she killed some people in the episode. At the very least we saw her shoot Battler in the face at the end.

--------------

And while we are on the topic of the episode 3 manga, can you confirm this?
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think in Episode 3's manga Ryukishi had the boiler room closed room corrected, not by locking it though, by blocking the doors to the courtyard with something. Similar to how the parlor was made into a closed room in episode 6. I'm not completely sure of this since it's been awhile. but it's something I remember hearing.
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That is a possibility. Though it is implied that it was at least planned to meet somebody in the rose garden and choose the co-culprit then...but of course it could be that Beatrice only communicated with Rosa via mail.
Though I'd say asking about her location mirrors how Rosa saw Maria as her trusted companion and how she planned her to be her line of communication towards the adults...which mirrors in Maria changing behaviour almost 180° when "channeling Beatrice". She didn't even care to make her talk like a child in those scenes...see the fact that she couldn't even remember the word messenger but was perfectly fine with reading out a letter containing complicated Kanji.
Yeah, what you are saying pretty much explains either scenario. So, why do you think that Rosa is so hostile towards her fellow accomplices, including Kanon and Shannon? Does she know, or can she guess, who Beatrice actually is?

If she knew who Beatrice was, wasn't she at one point armed and alone with Shannon in Kinzo's study? Wouldn't she take control of the situation there?

Was her gun even loaded?
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Old 2011-10-08, 00:22   Link #24959
Sherringford
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By the way, while we are on the topic of updated mistakes, did Ryuukishi ever correct a mistake between releases? Like say, if he made a mistake in episode 1, did the episode 1 version that came with episode 2 come patched? Or did he just fix those mistakes in the manga and novelizations?
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Old 2011-10-08, 00:41   Link #24960
Kealym
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Agh, I have never liked the idea that Yasu is somehow considered to be entirely incapable of murder. I mean, yeah, I get the kind of girl she was - troubled and timid and all, but she's also pretty emotionally unstable, and tends to see the world is a particularly ... unique way.

Also, whenever I see "Yasu wasn't the kind of girl who could kill in cold blood", I sort of read it as, instead, "But Kyrie, now there's a cold blooded bitch," and it's just ... I don't see Yasu as any less capable of murder than anybody else on the island. At my kindest, I can't go any easier than Even if she did not wish to kill people, she had fully committed to the possibility of doing so at the 1986 conference.

Also, I hate to use this comparison, because the Hinamizawa Syndrome was a factor there, but the author's other work had a crap ton of "Yeah, you'd be surprised how far a person will go when they're on their edge" <_<
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