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Old 2011-10-08, 01:10   Link #24961
AuraTwilight
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The thing is, Yasu doesn't have a motive for killing anyone. There's not a court on this earth that'd convict her even if she confessed to it. If Ryukishi actually did intend her to be the culprit, then he skipped two years in her flashback because he realized he was fucked.
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Old 2011-10-08, 05:24   Link #24962
goldendust
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The games are to find out the truth of Beato, and the truth she wants Battler to reach. It's not enough to understand the games, but also to understand her, and she's aiming at Battler specifically, who has a slightly different and more personal knowledgebase than we do. If she wants him to see through her ruse and learn of her martyrdom and keep everyone else deceived with her "I did it" game, then it makes sense why Battler starts helping her hide the truth.
Understanding her is the key to figuring out everything. In EP8 it was said Battler understood "everything" and Ange understood "nothing".

Though lets say you are right.

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If you thought Eva was the murderer of EP3 then you totally misunderstood EVERYTHING.
No the game was suppose to be a huge hint Beatrice's nature. If Eva was truly the culprit doesn't matter. The point is how Beatraice portrayed the game in attempt to convey something to Battler.


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The point Bern was showing is that the tragedy happens in ALL OF THEM though. There's only One Truth, regardless of what fictions or alternate worlds say. The incredibly strong implication is that the tragedy is outside of Yasu's control. Bernkastel told her to her face that no matter what she did, she can't have a happy live and survive 1986.
So the truth that Kirie and Rudolf are homicidal maniacs may be also true, that the whole tragedy happened becasue Yasu guided someone to the gold?

Though what happens if nobody finds the gold? Yasu still has to continue the game.

Quote:

Basically. I'm pretty confident that it has to be either George or Battler. I prefer George because I'd like to trust Battler's characterization.

But Battler theory is pretty great.
You keep saying that Yasu has no motive but what to those have that qualifies as something better?

I can see George being an additional culprit based that the later games portrayed him in a more negative light.

However Yasu also been portrayed as very emotionally/mentally unbalanced. I wouldn't put it past him/her to come up with a murder game.

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Fictional realities don't count. Prove that Yasu killed someone in a world that isn't a product of her own imagination.
It is impossible to prove that given that the author wants to reader to create their own answer. The games are suppose to help us with that.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, I don't commit murders for pleasure either because... I don't commit murders at all.

Or you can say that the "murders" she committed are contextual to her stories.
By saying you don't do something for a reason. It implies you done it for another reason.

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In that case it's only in the context of fiction.
Yeah but the thing with red truth, the more brief it is. The harder it is to find out what it means.


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I'm not really talking about the "murder game" specifically. Her actions that asserted her status as a witch began long before 1986.
Yeah but also during that time she was fascinated with the idea of magic/mystery ideas. Maybe she wanted to try that fantasy out.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah, what you are saying pretty much explains either scenario. So, why do you think that Rosa is so hostile towards her fellow accomplices, including Kanon and Shannon? Does she know, or can she guess, who Beatrice actually is?
My theory is that Rosa had some kind of agreement with the culprit but he/she renegaded on it. Leading to Rosa being paranoid.
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Old 2011-10-08, 12:08   Link #24963
Wanderer
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Well, a lot of my belief that Yasu is innocent comes from parts of episode 8:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't know if someone already made this

Anyway I put together the various frames that are shown when Ange reads Eva's diary in EP8. I included also the frames that still appear in the code, and still exist among the graphic files, but that were later removed.

Note that all of these are already bmp you can find in the game, they aren't screenshots I made.

Spoiler for Big file:
Ignoring the "removed" pictures, it appears that the gold was found, and then the killings happened some time afterward. Put simply, it really looks like a greed motive, although I'm sure it wasn't something so simple as that; tensions were running high and escalated, not unlike what happened in the episode 7 Tea Party. Although I think the villainous depiction of Kyrie in that case was highly exaggerated.

In any case, these pictures are all we get to see when Ange reads Eva's diary. However, for Ange the diary absolutely destroys her emotionally. Like, really bad. It doesn't automatically preclude Yasu from being a killer, but there was undoubtedly something particularly awful for Ange in there.

This, in combination with Battler's acceptance of Beatrice, Yasu's lack of motive, and the narrative value in the tragic irony of Yasu being truly innocent and a martyr, convinces me that Yasu is not the culprit. She just wanted to give the gold to everyone to solve their problems. She just wanted to have a little fun by making a game or a riddle out of it. She just wanted everyone to be happy.
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Old 2011-10-08, 12:16   Link #24964
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
However Yasu also been portrayed as very emotionally/mentally unbalanced. I wouldn't put it past him/her to come up with a murder game.
And the proof of this is where? Nowhere.

The most you can get from the story is that Yasu is a person with hobbies some people would call "strange", that she's been heartbroken, depressed, apathetic, unable to respond negatively to the abuse she receives from people around her, and that she tries to bury those feelings by distracting herself with other things. in the case of her love life, other people.

The only reason you would think she's portrayed as insane is because you NEED this assumption to rationalize her being a cold blooded murderer. And insanity isn't really a motive at all IMO.

Even Ryukishi doesn't think that Yasu's insane. As dumb as it is he apparently thinks it's understandable that a woman in love would go on a killing spree!
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Old 2011-10-08, 12:58   Link #24965
goldendust
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And the proof of this is where? Nowhere.

The most you can get from the story is that Yasu is a person with hobbies some people would call "strange", that she's been heartbroken, depressed, apathetic, unable to respond negatively to the abuse she receives from people around her, and that she tries to bury those feelings by distracting herself with other things. in the case of her love life, other people.
Well Yasu seems unable to process emotions or reality in any relatively normal way. Which like you said "unable to respond negatively to the abuse" though that is just one thing among others.

More so the various implication of Shannon/Kannon as a whole beyond "ideal maid" and "comforting little brother".

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The only reason you would think she's portrayed as insane is because you NEED this assumption to rationalize her being a cold blooded murderer.
Not really. It just the impression I got when finishing her story.

Which further cemented with the portrayal in Bern's tale. Before you say THAT ISN'T THE TRUTH. I am just going to say that the portrayal isn't that much stretch compared to Kirie and Rudolf.

Though with brining up 罪 that it may be "sin" not crime was huge factor for me thinking that she was the culprit.

As well Wanderer's current post, leads me to doubt my interpretation.

Quote:
Even Ryukishi doesn't think that Yasu's insane. As dumb as it is he apparently thinks it's to be expected that a woman in love would go on a killing spree!
That does seem to be staple of when they cry series. Which again made me think Yasu could be the culprit given that she had more romance/family issues than Shion.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

This, in combination with Battler's acceptance of Beatrice, Yasu's lack of motive, and the narrative value in the tragic irony of Yasu being truly innocent and a martyr, convinces me that Yasu is not the culprit. She just wanted to give the gold to everyone to solve their problems. She just wanted to have a little fun by making a game or a riddle out of it. She just wanted everyone to be happy.
Hm, that seems very probable given that when Battler took over the game and "dedicated" the game towards Beatrice. The Rokenjima's incident only started out as a prank until Erika stepped in.
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Old 2011-10-08, 13:29   Link #24966
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Interesting. Well, I still think she killed some people in the episode. At the very least we saw her shoot Battler in the face at the end.
The question is how to handle that scene. In the VN we are given no actuall temporal context, only in chapter 19 of the Episode 3 manga it is implied that this attack on Battler happens at 18:55 of the 5th October. Is this something that actually happened and T˘ya recovered from Battler's memory? Is this why this scene is only shown after Beatrice destroys the illusion of Eva-Beato?

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And while we are on the topic of the episode 3 manga, can you confirm this?
I haven't got my copy of the specific volumes with me right now, so I can't confirm if it's written anywhere, but there is no visual evidence for this. All they do is show the burned corpse in front of the furnace...at least on the pages I could find (all in Chinese though).
I wouldn't know why they should. As I said above I see nothing wrong with the presence of the unlocked door in the basement, because the only way you could use it is by saying there is a 19th person or there is a conspiracy. Well except one person...
  • All parents were in the dining hall until 6am of the 5th.
  • The cousins were in the guesthouse and only George left when he asked Shannon at the arbor to marry him. So they were under Battler's supervision.
  • Basically the only possible single culprit (besides Shkannon) who was unaccounted for was Dr. Nanj˘, who was said to be sound asleep in his guesthouse room.
Therefore it doesn't matter wether there was an unlocked door or not, it is still a locked room because it is the one room where the culprit is impossible to have commited suicide or anyway else made himself vanish, except escaping.

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Yeah, what you are saying pretty much explains either scenario. So, why do you think that Rosa is so hostile towards her fellow accomplices, including Kanon and Shannon? Does she know, or can she guess, who Beatrice actually is?

If she knew who Beatrice was, wasn't she at one point armed and alone with Shannon in Kinzo's study? Wouldn't she take control of the situation there?

Was her gun even loaded?
I don't think that Rosa was ever fully involved in the plan as somebody like Eva might have been expected by Yasu. Rosa is basically presented as an oportunist who uses her family to get her old private life back. She was not treated as hostile by her father (not like Krauss and Eva were) but instead her siblings were using her as a punching bag. There's also that pretty nasty past event with Beato#2 which only Genji, Nanj˘ and Kumasawa (and probably Yasu) know about. She still blames herself personally for this as shown in EP3, 7 and 8.
She vents this anger and anxiety in pretty unhealthy ways and I'd say a "minor event" might make her crumble.

She's also basically dependent on money both on a personal and financial level. She wants her husband back, she has to keep a company running, she has to support her daughter and all that in a pretty single-parent hostile environment like 80's Japan.
She would probably do pretty much for money, but being a mother (which is a huge theme in Umineko) she feels responsible for the children and her breaking point was reached pretty early on when Jessica was murdered.

Her gun was probably loaded just as Natsuhi's was. The problem is that we can only guess what happened in the study where she was supposed to be with Shannon and Genji.
I suppose that only Genji was there, as Shannon would be away "with Kanon" as Beatrice murdering Jessica in her room. He should have told her something to make her accept the Kinz˘ illusion, as she was still upholding it when she came back down (something along the lines of: "Father is staying in his study, he should be safe there.").

The problem is how we want to solve this. Taking Shkannon as the culprit we would have to believe that she simply outsmarted Rosa and used her blindspots of:
  • probably leaving the chapel early
  • being in Kinz˘'s study at Jessica's murder
  • believing in Shannon's love for George
  • etc.
To get a hold of the situation.
Otherwise it also shows the rather simple and slightly blunt way in which Yasu decided to take the blame.
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Old 2011-10-08, 14:42   Link #24967
AuraTwilight
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So the truth that Kirie and Rudolf are homicidal maniacs may be also true, that the whole tragedy happened becasue Yasu guided someone to the gold?

Though what happens if nobody finds the gold? Yasu still has to continue the game.
Right. But what if the adult accomplice she works with has to be shown the gold for their cooperation? Or what if someone uses the game as a cover to get away with murder for personal reasons?

I don't even think the gold is that much of a good motive.

Quote:
You keep saying that Yasu has no motive but what to those have that qualifies as something better?

I can see George being an additional culprit based that the later games portrayed him in a more negative light.

However Yasu also been portrayed as very emotionally/mentally unbalanced. I wouldn't put it past him/her to come up with a murder game.
Of course she came up with a murder game. A game with REAL MURDERS though? Why in the FUCK would she?

Emotional/mental unbalance is just a cop out. Even if she's "lolcrazy" we should be able to understand her thought process. Ryukishi has claimed that anyone who's been in love would be able to put themselves in her shoes, and I can't put myself in the shoes of someone who murders fucking everyone she's ever known because she can't pick a boyfriend.

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It is impossible to prove that given that the author wants to reader to create their own answer. The games are suppose to help us with that.
And there's also supposed to be a single truth we can pick up on. Demonstrate that Yasu's emotional unbalance sufficiently explains murder.

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By saying you don't do something for a reason. It implies you done it for another reason.
Not really. What if it comes to light that someone's been murdered for revenge? That rules out Yasu pretty much 100% forever.

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In any case, these pictures are all we get to see when Ange reads Eva's diary. However, for Ange the diary absolutely destroys her emotionally. Like, really bad. It doesn't automatically preclude Yasu from being a killer, but there was undoubtedly something particularly awful for Ange in there.
On the other hand, she's able to cope with it afterwards. She's able to move on.

My personal theory is that George is the culprit, killed everyone, Rudolf and Kyrie killed George, and Eva killed them thinking he was the culprit.

This theory explains everything.

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Well Yasu seems unable to process emotions or reality in any relatively normal way.
This isn't true at all. You seem to think Yasu is a schizophrenic or something. She understands and processes her emotions and the world around her perfectly fine; she's just extremely imaginative, and due to how awful her life is she's too emotionally stunted to deal with adult emotions properly, especially given her sexual deformity giving her an inferiority complex.

Really, given her circumstances, her personality and emotions are ENTIRELY UNDERSTANDABLE, except when ti comes to explaining why she wants to kill people.

Quote:
That does seem to be staple of when they cry series. Which again made me think Yasu could be the culprit given that she had more romance/family issues than Shion.
In fairness Shion was possessed by sci-fi parasites.
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Old 2011-10-08, 15:15   Link #24968
UsagiTenpura
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Meta-Beatrice is the author.
The author doesnt have to be present to kill their characters.
They dont have to be deranged either.
And what they want their readers to feel is certainly not fear or other negative emotions - they want them to have fun.
Unconvinced? Go read the text written when you highlight the Umineko menu. The only thing that overly apparently comes out of them is that Beatrice always wants us to enjoy ourselves.
It even solves the whole "Beatrice has no form" or the "18 but 19" problems.

That whole "who is Beatrice", if you replace it by "Who is Ryuukishi", everything should make sense.

Btw random but this japanese guy whos writting a book on how he solved Umineko (might have published it by now?) said his answer for that question was "Beatrice is the bomb".
Heh... sad... The bomb is even on the island how does that even work?

When I first said Bernkastel represented us readers no one took it seriously (even tho arc 1 says very directly that "sometimes she is you, and sometimes she's your only friend" or something like that), but I think its sorta accepted by now.
So whats so weird about Beatrice representing the author?

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-10-08 at 15:27.
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Old 2011-10-08, 15:41   Link #24969
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
That whole "who is Beatrice", if you replace it by "Who is Ryuukishi", everything should make sense.

Btw random but this japanese guy whos writting a book on how he solved Umineko (might have published it by now?) said his answer for that question was "Beatrice is the bomb".
Heh... sad... The bomb is even on the island how does that even work?
Keiya was talking about the final riddle of EP4 there, where Beatrice was posing a riddle rather than talking about her own identity. "Who am I" is a very common riddle structure.

According to her red text, "You are all alone on this island. Yet I am here, now." There is also Will's answer: "The promised reaper lowers the curtain on the tale, regardless of the witch's will." Both of those are consistent with the bomb.

That said, what do you mean by the bomb not being on the island?
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Old 2011-10-08, 16:24   Link #24970
goldendust
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Right. But what if the adult accomplice she works with has to be shown the gold for their cooperation? Or what if someone uses the game as a cover to get away with murder for personal reasons?

I don't even think the gold is that much of a good motive.
If anything is used for cooperation. I would imagine it would be the cash card shown in Bern's version of the truth in EP7. I cannot imagine why else Yasu would have that since Yasu didn't seem interested in money as shown when Yasu turned down Genji's offer to turn all of the gold into cash.

However it makes more sense if it was suppsoe to be a bribe.


Quote:
Of course she came up with a murder game. A game with REAL MURDERS though? Why in the FUCK would she?
Despair about her/his life, wanting to entrust her/his and everyone's fate to the roulette to create a miracle she/he wanted. Something to that effect.

Which I believe was hinted at in the tea party of E7 when Bern showed Ange the "truth".

Quote:
Emotional/mental unbalance is just a cop out. Even if she's "lolcrazy" we should be able to understand her thought process. Ryukishi has claimed that anyone who's been in love would be able to put themselves in her shoes, and I can't put myself in the shoes of someone who murders fucking everyone she's ever known because she can't pick a boyfriend.
Are you referring to phrase "without love it cannot be seen" or is it an actual quote from Ryukishi?

Putting yourself in Yasu's shoes or rather Shannon/Yasu/Kannon's shoes is difficult indeed if you try to think why she would murder.

What did Yasu want? If Shannon/Kanon is any indication is that they want to become human and love. In E6 we seen a trial of love where murder needs to be committed to show the resolve to make love happen.

Though it possible that Yasu's resolve didn't go any further than setting up the bomb. Maybe for same reason Kinzou did, set up the bomb to think about what do with his current situation.

Like I said before Wanderer's posts made me rethink Yasu's stance on the crime, that is is probable that maybe it was all just an elaborate set-up.

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This isn't true at all. You seem to think Yasu is a schizophrenic or something. She understands and processes her emotions and the world around her perfectly fine; she's just extremely imaginative, and due to how awful her life is she's too emotionally stunted to deal with adult emotions properly, especially given her sexual deformity giving her an inferiority complex.
[/I]
Well I think the largest indication that she/he doesn't emotions or reality in any relatively normal way is how she/he handles the reality that Battler doesn't care for their promise and the resulting emotions.

First she/he shoves those feelings into another self that she/he created without processing those emotions at all, then to comfort himself/herself Kanon was created.

Over-imaginative or not, that is not a really healthy way to deal with reality.


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Really, given her circumstances, her personality and emotions are ENTIRELY UNDERSTANDABLE, [I]except when ti comes to explaining why she wants to kill people.
It is understandable, we had two other girls (Maria,Ange) to explain this appeal to use imagination to deal with harsh reality. Even to a further extent with Eva with her own young self.

Just that Yasu takes a step further by actaully playing those roles. That is where he/she is different from the rest.

Quote:
In fairness Shion was possessed by sci-fi parasites.
Well that is true but it seems like the kind of culprit Ryukishi would create. Even Takano turned out be more of a pity character than Shion.
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Old 2011-10-08, 16:25   Link #24971
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Keiya was talking about the final riddle of EP4 there, where Beatrice was posing a riddle rather than talking about her own identity. "Who am I" is a very common riddle structure.

According to her red text, "You are all alone on this island. Yet I am here, now." There is also Will's answer: "The promised reaper lowers the curtain on the tale, regardless of the witch's will." Both of those are consistent with the bomb.

That said, what do you mean by the bomb not being on the island?
I could have sworn Will answered this riddle.

Bernkastel: And the ''Who am I'' at the end of the game?

Will: The culprit, who can kill everyone by midnight

(or something like that).
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Old 2011-10-08, 16:51   Link #24972
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If anything is used for cooperation. I would imagine it would be the cash card shown in Bern's version of the truth in EP7. I cannot imagine why else Yasu would have that since Yasu didn't seem interested in money as shown when Yasu turned down Genji's offer to turn all of the gold into cash.

However it makes more sense if it was suppsoe to be a bribe.
There's no evidence that there's anything even on the cash card; they don't have any device to check it's validity. If I were Yasu, I'd just show some gold bars and say there's more where that came from.

Quote:
Despair about her/his life, wanting to entrust her/his and everyone's fate to the roulette to create a miracle she/he wanted. Something to that effect.
And how do you translate that into "fuck it, kill everyone?"

Given the setup she created, it seems she created a fake murder mystery the adults were in on in some way, and was testing the cousins to see which one she should devote herself to.

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Are you referring to phrase "without love it cannot be seen" or is it an actual quote from Ryukishi?
I'm referring to one of his most recent interviews with Keiya, where he describes that anyone who's been in love could understand why Beatrice would do what she did.

Well I'm in love. I'm so fucking in love with my man I can tapdance on rainbows. Yasu being a murderer still makes no goddamn sense. Arranging a huge party game to make Battler remember her, using the only thing they bonded over (mystery novels) to try and jog his memory? I understand that part.

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Which I believe was hinted at in the tea party of E7 when Bern showed Ange the "truth".
Bernkastel amends herself in EP8 and states outright that she only showed a possible truth; specifically, one of the worst truths imaginable to test Ange's resolve. That Tea Party is effectively worthless.

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What did Yasu want? If Shannon/Kanon is any indication is that they want to become human and love. In E6 we seen a trial of love where murder needs to be committed to show the resolve to make love happen.
The thing is, no one actually died. We see Yasu's selves and their lovers seemingly murdering people, but in actuality, they are coercing people to play dead as part of a game.

And EP6 was supposed to demonstrate that Battler understood Beatrice.

Connect the dots.

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Though it possible that Yasu's resolve didn't go any further than setting up the bomb. Maybe for same reason Kinzou did, set up the bomb to think about what do with his current situation.
I like to think that Yasu flipped the bomb later, since the switch can only last 24 hours and by that point people are probably already dead. I imagine it's a "I'll take the real killer with me" thing.

Quote:
Well I think the largest indication that she/he doesn't emotions or reality in any relatively normal way is how she/he handles the reality that Battler doesn't care for their promise and the resulting emotions.

First she/he shoves those feelings into another self that she/he created without processing those emotions at all, then to comfort himself/herself Kanon was created.

Over-imaginative or not, that is not a really healthy way to deal with reality.
I think you're putting too much stock in that metaphorical scene. It's not like Yasu has actual separate selves in a psychological sense, she's just an actress. What is Beatrice? A fantasy self she acts out in order to let out the impulses she can't perform in the day, like playing tricks on people, right?

So Shannon giving her love to Battler means burying her love for Battler so it stops interfering with her everyday life, because until she did, it was making her depressed over absolutely everything, to the point where she felt that Jessica was subconsciously mocking her or something.

It's healthiER. Still not healthy but it's a step in the right direction.

Quote:
Well that is true but it seems like the kind of culprit Ryukishi would create. Even Takano turned out be more of a pity character than Shion.
On the other hand, unlike Shion and Takano and all those Higurashi examples, Yasu is being glamorized here. She's being treated as beautiful and pitiable, someone we should understand, and that the truth of what happened on those days being covered up as a moral good.

Beatrice is trying to take credit for this crime, and we're supposed to pretty much exonerate her from it. What could be the reasoning behind this other than "She didn't do it"?

The alternative is that Ryukishi is telling us that serial killers are totally fine as long as they feel bad about it or if they were sad. And that's fucked up to unbelieveable degrees.
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Old 2011-10-08, 17:23   Link #24973
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Despair about her/his life, wanting to entrust her/his and everyone's fate to the roulette to create a miracle she/he wanted. Something to that effect.
At the very least, Yasu's not so "deranged" to think that randomly killing people is going to help her.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Beatrice is trying to take credit for this crime, and we're supposed to pretty much exonerate her from it. What could be the reasoning behind this other than "She didn't do it"?
Yeah. Even from very early on Beatrice kept on claiming she was the culprit. She even taunted Battler with how denying her would mean he would have to suspect one of the 18 people on the island.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The alternative is that Ryukishi is telling us that serial killers are totally fine as long as they feel bad about it or if they were sad. And that's fucked up to unbelieveable degrees.
To be fair, he kind of did tell us this in Higurashi.
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Old 2011-10-08, 17:43   Link #24974
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's no evidence that there's anything even on the cash card; they don't have any device to check it's validity. If I were Yasu, I'd just show some gold bars and say there's more where that came from.
In episode 3, there were 8 digits drawn at the scene of George's murder. Even the TIPS said that it "opens up a small golden land". Which would make sense if it a PIN number. Thus we know that card very likely exists.

However for "validity" check. If Yasu is willing to give up the gold to prove that he has the wealth to create that kind of money. They shouldn't doubt it when he has so much gold.

It seems more convenient, basically "here is some gold but for your convenience I made some into enough cash to solve your immediate financial problems". More so if according to you Yasu wants them to go through rather complicated scheme, Yasu would try to appeal to them as much as possible to get their help.

Lets say someone ask you for help. They gave you valuable jewelry(gold, sliver etc) and a cash card that has considerable amount of money. If you trust the person enough to believe the valuable jewelry why not trust them for the cash card?

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And how do you translate that into "fuck it, kill everyone?"
Well a consistent theme of the games with the epitaph is that "Kinzo" wanted a miracle to occur with this game even if his family dies.

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I'm referring to one of his most recent interviews with Keiya, where he describes that anyone who's been in love could understand why Beatrice would do what she did.
Really? I wasn't aware that interview like that existed

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Bernkastel amends herself in EP8 and states outright that she only showed a possible truth; specifically, one of the worst truths imaginable to test Ange's resolve. That Tea Party is effectively worthless.
Yet shouldn't we take it as hints like the rest of fantasy scenes?

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The thing is, no one actually died. We see Yasu's selves and their lovers seemingly murdering people, but in actuality, they are coercing people to play dead as part of a game.

And EP6 was supposed to demonstrate that Battler understood Beatrice.

Connect the dots.
Hmm, indeed you do have a point there.

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I like to think that Yasu flipped the bomb later, since the switch can only last 24 hours and by that point people are probably already dead. I imagine it's a "I'll take the real killer with me" thing.
So like a fail-safe? That "I will try to stop the killer but if I fail the culprit doesn't leave the island alive".

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I think you're putting too much stock in that metaphorical scene. It's not like Yasu has actual separate selves in a psychological sense, she's just an actress. What is Beatrice? A fantasy self she acts out in order to let out the impulses she can't perform in the day, like playing tricks on people, right?

So Shannon giving her love to Battler means burying her love for Battler so it stops interfering with her everyday life, because until she did, it was making her depressed over absolutely everything, to the point where she felt that Jessica was subconsciously mocking her or something.

It's healthiER. Still not healthy but it's a step in the right direction.
I am not going to claim the high ground on issues like that but it strike me as extremely odd to transfer emotions into a self that you created to the point that if I try to envision it for myself, it comes across as potentially deranged.

Even after getting to know Maria/Ange, more Maria being on the creepy side at first.

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Yasu is being glamorized here. She's being treated as beautiful and pitiable, someone we should understand, and that the truth of what happened on those days being covered up as a moral good.

Beatrice is trying to take credit for this crime, and we're supposed to pretty much exonerate her from it. What could be the reasoning behind this other than "She didn't do it"?
Then again that depends on the nature of her "crime/sin" which isn't entirely clear what that is since Yasu refers to a crime/sin. If she/he was entirely innocent than regardless of her sin/crime, then perhaps yes.


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The alternative is that Ryukishi is telling us that serial killers are totally fine as long as they feel bad about it or if they were sad. And that's fucked up to unbelieveable degrees.
Well in Higurashi, sometimes it came across that way.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:07   Link #24975
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
In episode 3, there were 8 digits drawn at the scene of George's murder. Even the TIPS said that it "opens up a small golden land". Which would make sense if it a PIN number. Thus we know that card very likely exists.
Yea, but do any of the adults know that? How can they trust her and know she's not just handing them a worthless piece of plastic?

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However for "validity" check. If Yasu is willing to give up the gold to prove that he has the wealth to create that kind of money. They shouldn't doubt it when he has so much gold.
That's silly. If you're dealing with someone you suspect is planning to harm people, you shouldn't take them at their word for anything. Kyrie is uncharacteristically idiotic and uncritical in her thinking in that Tea Party.

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Yet shouldn't we take it as hints like the rest of fantasy scenes?
Except it's not a fantasy scene.

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So like a fail-safe? That "I will try to stop the killer but if I fail the culprit doesn't leave the island alive".
Yea. Or maybe Eva flipped the bomb to wipe away the evidence. Or maybe the killer flipped the bomb. Or something.

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I am not going to claim the high ground on issues like that but it strike me as extremely odd to transfer emotions into a self that you created to the point that if I try to envision it for myself, it comes across as potentially deranged.
I've basically gone through what I've done; it's not deranged, it's a coping mechanism, and people do it all the time to protect their psyches. Yasu is only different in that she is an adult, not a child; but she's emotionally stunted and never really had a normal growing up process and LIED TO about her age so she's missing some years anyway.

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Then again that depends on the nature of her "crime/sin" which isn't entirely clear what that is since Yasu refers to a crime/sin. If she/he was entirely innocent than regardless of her sin/crime, then perhaps yes.
What is her sin? Yasu doesn't seem to regard herself as worthy of living even if someone else is killing people. Her sin, from her point of view, seems to be allowing this to happen. And since she's furniture she probably compounds this into "everyone died because I was born!"

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Well in Higurashi, sometimes it came across that way.
Higurashi is bullshit for all sorts of other reasons. One of them being that everyone was effectively under mind control when they killed people.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:44   Link #24976
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Higurashi is bullshit for all sorts of other reasons. One of them being that everyone was effectively under mind control when they killed people.
Not really. Unless you call a hightened amount of stress hormones leading to uncontrolled psychotic behaviour something like mind control.
Higurashi wasn't even that much bullshit...the problem was that nobody cared to pay much attention anymore after Minagoroshi made it all pretty clear what events transpired.

But I'll agree that Ryűkishi's idea of morally just behaviour might be a little unconventional. Though he's not really alone among writers when he portrays the murder of "sinful people" as something that can be forgiven...it seems kinda off when he tries to draw this huge moral diagram of right and wrong and then still applying fairy tale morals to his story.
Okay the two culprits who got away alive in Higurashi went to prison...but it was done in such an offscreen manner, it felt like he only tagged it on and didn't really mean it.

Umineko felt a little less morally awkward to me, as truth and justice is not handled in that much a black and white pattern as Higurashi did.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:45   Link #24977
cronnoponno
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So, was that really the answer to the ''Who am I''? Was will right?

''The culprit who can kill everyone at midnight''


Can someone explain this answer? I am pretty sure she said there is no one here but you, but I am here and I'm about to kill you, who am I....isn't a culprit a person? Or does a culprit not have to be? Like, uh, tripping and piercing your head on a conveniently placed rock or getting blunt trama....
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:41   Link #24978
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Bomb bomb bomb
bo-bo-bo-bomb
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Old 2011-10-08, 22:44   Link #24979
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Bomb bomb bomb
bo-bo-bo-bomb
The bomb doesn't kill Battler AFAIK
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Old 2011-10-08, 23:04   Link #24980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
so, was that really the answer to the ''who am i''? Was will right?

''the culprit who can kill everyone at midnight''


can someone explain this answer? I am pretty sure she said there is no one here but you, but i am here and i'm about to kill you, who am i....isn't a culprit a person? Or does a culprit not have to be? Like, uh, tripping and piercing your head on a conveniently placed rock or getting blunt trama....
The author.
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