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Old 2011-10-17, 04:25   Link #25101
AuraTwilight
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I was thinking along the lines of creating a story for everyone to act out, though your points about Bern writing the setting and controlling the characters had slipped my mind. In Bern's game, though, everyone simply stands around (maybe talking) until Will and Lion show up to talk to them. In the other games, by contrast, there's a definite plot.
Right, but remember those plots only exist to deliver ideas and concepts the Gamemaster wants to express to the other player. Bern is just skipping a step. Her game in EP8 has even LESS plot and no one, not even herself, disputes her Gamemaster status.

Quote:
Ryuu: No, that’s not it. This could turn into an answer so I don’t want to say too much, but if “Beatrice and Battler will be together for the rest of their lives,” then that also means that “Shannon and George, Kanon and Jessica can never be together” would be established. For each of the pairs’ loves to be fulfilled, in reality, none of them can be.
Oh shut the fuck up.

Quote:
Ryuu: If she actually left the island and “they were together for the rest of their lives” became an established fact, then within Beatrice, it would lead to the loves of the other two couples being denied. In order for those two couples to remain happy, the cat box named Beatrice has to remain shut. But if Battler took her away from the island, then that cat box would be opened… No, at this point I want to be evasive.
This desire hasn't been expressed on Yasu's part at any point ever. It doesn't even fit the speech in the scene she's talking about. What the fuck is he smoking?

Quote:
Ryuu: Depending on whether or not you understand why she decided to jump into the sea, your impression of that scene will be completely different. In that sense, I think that anyone who doesn’t understand that scene surely didn’t understand the story either.
SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Quote:
Ryuu: A man lives for the purpose of leaving behind descendants, so it’s a problem if the woman doesn’t have a body. But I think that for a woman, the body is just an appendage for the soul,
I stopped reading. Drink bleach. You don't know shit about anything go fuck yourself you sexist piece of shit.

GOD I AM SO MAD.
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Old 2011-10-17, 04:25   Link #25102
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Nachtprophet View Post
Seriously? Ryuukishi seriously said that?!

That would make Yasu's entire motivation to get a declaration of love from Battler, George and Jessica and then kill herself.

Ryuukishi thinks women don't want to live with their loved ones. I think that dequalifies him to talk about any emotion ever.
That's not what he said. Read it again.
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Old 2011-10-17, 04:39   Link #25103
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I stopped reading. Drink bleach. You don't know shit about anything go fuck yourself you sexist piece of shit.

GOD I AM SO MAD.
I'd like to stress the fact that this is a rough draft of the translation. Allow me to clarify.

Quote:
Ryuu: [...] But I think that from a woman's perspective, the body is just an appendage for the soul, so if their souls are bound together, then even in the worst case where their bodies are torn apart, they can still be together, so it’s alright.
...This is going to end up being a discussion about sexism even though that isn't the interesting part of it. So annoying.
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Old 2011-10-17, 05:22   Link #25104
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This is an older post of mine:
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
On Yasu's motive, at least if she really intended to blow the island, saying her motive is the love trial isn't all there is to it. Couldn't it be said, that the creation of the catbox itself is Yasu's motive? Creating the Golden Land where everyone is happy and every love is possible, one where Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice can coexist, have complete souls and ability to make love. She might have pitied/loathed the current situation Ushiromiya family was, and wanted them to have a happier story. She also promised to bring Maria to the Golden Land, and she said she keeps her promises. The epitaph murders are something she wanted to do before dying, as she loved mysteries, and used them as a way to reach out to Battler, maybe wanting herself to be stopped.

The message bottle stories make the family conference look like a bloodshed to the public though, and not a happy story for the family. Well, a sappy story might not be taken seriously. The murders in the stories might be for the intent of making people feel sorry for the family. The stories also include clues towards the person and intent behind the murders. So rather than forcing happiness on people, they'd need to understand the intentions first.

But why didn't Yasu just give the Ushiromiya family the gold if she pitied them? Also I'm not entirely bought on Yasu actually wanting to kill everyone, with fake murder theories and all. But if the intent really was to have her as a real killer, then this is a motive I could think of.
Seems like Ryukishi really suggests the catbox as Yasu's motive, and that Yasu really wanted to kill everyone. Or alternatively, just kill herself and live in some afterlife delusions by herself, which I like the least as a solution. I think Beatrice's promise to Maria is a strong point towards the theory of Yasu wanting to create the catbox. She doesn't want to break promises because of her experience with Battler. But the message bottles do in some way go against the idea of Ushiromiya happily ever after. The actual message bottles might not have any background info on the family and their motives though, because it was from Maria's perspective. So the public might have a more positive view on the family than us. Background info might have been later added from Tohya's memory or some other source.

The doubt about why Yasu didn't give the parents the gold could be explained by that she thought EP7 Tea party would happen. Something like that might have actually happened, though, as may have read in Eva's diary. Maybe Battler forgave her, because in the end she didn't get the chance to kill anyone but herself? If Yasu planned to kill everyone, it again makes Battler's motivation in hiding the truth doubtful. Maybe, after he understood everything, he didn't want the death of his family to be in vain, and try to maintain that happy story of Golden Land with Beatrice. Or he killed...

I do have very mixed feelings about this. I hope to read rest of the interview.


By the way, I had a dream last night where I got a paper where read the name of Umineko's culprit in faded letters. I don't remember it exactly, and the letters were a bit hard to make out in the dream, but it was <Japanese surname (Not Ushiromiya)> George<some continuation to name>. Something like Tanaka Georgeseiharukana.
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Old 2011-10-17, 05:29   Link #25105
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'd like to stress the fact that this is a rough draft of the translation. Allow me to clarify.



...This is going to end up being a discussion about sexism even though that isn't the interesting part of it. So annoying.
The point is he explicitly describes men as putting primary focus on children and lineage and women only on the emotional aspect, when this isn't even the slightest bit true.

It doesn't matter what he actually means, he generalizes and stereotypes entire groups of people and uses that to justify Yasu's irrational bullshit motivations. This is just insulting to EVERYONE'S intelligence.
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Old 2011-10-17, 05:48   Link #25106
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
...This is going to end up being a discussion about sexism even though that isn't the interesting part of it. So annoying.
So in Yasu's mind the moment that the other person ( George, Jessica, Battler) accepted them then it would be OK to kill them and that part of the persona? "You love me!? Thats so nice, let me just go behind you and *Stab*...so happy!" "Just two more to go!". Like its really something to do with the golden land and how everyone would be reunited there. As seen in EP6.

Well, the best part of the interview so far was that it looks like he blurbed out that Battler was out a few years or something before Ikuko got to him. Haha, if this is true then she could very well be Yasu.

e- Thanks for the translation, eagerly waiting to that part where he mentions (I think..?) how much BTs death influenced him.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-10-17 at 06:10.
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Old 2011-10-17, 07:13   Link #25107
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
...This is going to end up being a discussion about sexism even though that isn't the interesting part of it. So annoying.
I really hope wee can avoid that.
Japanese literature is problematic when discussed from a point of gender, I think so too, but that doesn't mean we have to limit this to a debate about sexism. Ryűkishi grew up in a society that was basically revolving around anti-feminist ideas, so the idea alone that he is basically empowering the female in this story is rather innovative.
I would agree that it is still sexist. Of course he portrayed power-hungry, goal orriented women as something negative (c.f. Eva), it even explains his depiction of Higurashi's antagonist. But I don't think that we should start bashing - looking intensely at you AT - just because of this. We can check this as a point i itself and declare "Yes, in a way Ryűkishi is homosexuell....case closed, let's discuss his ideas!!". For example most popular culture is still very much anti-gay oriented...so is every gay user supposed to start bashing those works because they are? Those things can be pointed out and criticised...but saying "This is bullshit, I stopped reading" just disqualifies any of you on a discursive level.
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Old 2011-10-17, 08:12   Link #25108
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Originally Posted by Ryukishi07
I might be putting women on a pedestal excessively, but at least in that world’s values, that’s how it is.
He says it himself. It's about what influences Yasu got from the world before 1986 in Umineko's setting, not how Ryukishi thinks. We have multiple cases of this kind of thinking, with Eva and Natsuhi for example. Of course we can suspect him, and it's not like I'm saying he's completely clean, but we can't just judge him based on the interview. I also hope we're not going to get stuck on this topic.
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Old 2011-10-17, 09:35   Link #25109
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
So in Yasu's mind the moment that the other person ( George, Jessica, Battler) accepted them then it would be OK to kill them and that part of the persona? "You love me!? Thats so nice, let me just go behind you and *Stab*...so happy!" "Just two more to go!". Like its really something to do with the golden land and how everyone would be reunited there. As seen in EP6.
Perhaps. There was another interview where he said (I think?) that Yasu had started thinking about lovers' suicide or something after her trip with George. On the other hand, he might be talking specifically about fictional Beatrice's motivations rather than Yasu herself here. She doesn't try to kill Battler on the boat, just herself, right?

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well, the best part of the interview so far was that it looks like he blurbed out that Battler was out a few years or something before Ikuko got to him. Haha, if this is true then she could very well be Yasu.
Yeah, that was the most interesting part for me too. What was he doing during those years before he turned up? At that point, more than suspecting Ikuko = Yasu, we have to start doubting Tohya = Battler (even though he himself is under that impression).
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Old 2011-10-17, 11:48   Link #25110
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Yeah, that was the most interesting part for me too. What was he doing during those years before he turned up? At that point, more than suspecting Ikuko = Yasu, we have to start doubting Tohya = Battler (even though he himself is under that impression).
Well, Tohya=! Battler was always a possibility if you refused to suspend all your disbelief on how he was able to survive the ordeal. Also it seems RK07 is adamant that this man is Battler, at least his body is. So the biggest issue I have with Battler being a hobo for a few years is Ikuko's motivation for taking a random person of the streets that she should have suspected was able to fend for himself fine. Why not any other hobo?
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:38   Link #25111
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Um........ what was Kinzo's entire motivation if not his emotional attachment to Beatrice? He didn't want Beatrice's child to live. He didn't want his legacy with Beatrice to survive (at least, not that he seemed consciously aware of). He wanted a brief, ephemeral moment with her again in some form or fashion.

And Kinzo is a man. As far as I know.

So uh isn't that pretty much the opposite of what he's saying there? He wrote a character in his own work that essentially achieves fulfillment in exactly the fashion he says the other gender does.

EDIT: Wait...
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We can check this as a point i itself and declare "Yes, in a way Ryűkishi is homosexuell....case closed, let's discuss his ideas!!". For example most popular culture is still very much anti-gay oriented...so is every gay user supposed to start bashing those works because they are? Those things can be pointed out and criticised...but saying "This is bullshit, I stopped reading" just disqualifies any of you on a discursive level.
Are you saying something about him being gay? Sorry, I'm not sure if this was just an example or what. I always thought the BT thing was mostly just joking.

EDIT EDIT: Also technically Yasu and Battler never did live together the rest of their lives if Yasu = Ikuko and Battler = Touya.

She's Ikuko. He's Touya. The facts of the world say Ikuko and Touya lived together all their lives.

Just sayin'.
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:46   Link #25112
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Kinzo's been dead for 2 years though. The one we are seeing could very well be a construct that someone, a woman or a person that relates to one, might have created.

e- I think he goes in depth on how BT's death influenced him, he also goes on to say that he might rewrite everything a decade or two from now if he's still writing.
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:52   Link #25113
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Kinzo's been dead for 2 years though. The one we are seeing could very well be a construct that someone, a woman or a person that relates to one, might have created.
Oh hi the entirety of Yasu's backstory confirmign that Kinzo's motive was exactly what it was portrayed as all this time.
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:57   Link #25114
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I've been working on a translation of that interview that was linked in the Translation Project thread. I'm not finished yet, but here's a rather interesting part as a teaser, talking about the scene in EP8 of Beatrice and Battler jumping in the ocean. The interviewer is Ryuukishi's editor, incidentally.

Spoiler for May 2011 interview (just a small part):
Oh my god. This is the single most shocking piece of information I have ever read in the entire series. I honestly can't believe this. Yasu, Shkanon, Beatrice, all of that? I could believe it. I could even believe in magic.

I could believe that Beatrice really did exist, in our world. But this interview it just...I can't believe it! I can't believe what it says!

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The interviewer is Ryuukishi's editor, incidentally.
I CAN'T BELIEVE RYUUKISHI HAS AN EDITOR!
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:58   Link #25115
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Wait, how can he be the editor and not know what the answer is?

How would he know what to edit?
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Kinzo's been dead for 2 years though. The one we are seeing could very well be a construct that someone, a woman or a person that relates to one, might have created.
Disregarding what AT said for a moment, Kinzo was gruff, apparently totally uncaring about passing on his legacy, and despairing that everything he'd produced was worthless.

And crying over a person he knew only briefly, whom he would give anything to see again even one time.

Sounds to me like a person whose character arc went from exactly what the interview suggests to, well, exactly the opposite. He started out building a legacy and regretted it. Now he no longer cares. It isn't a simple thing. Which makes the interview part kind of baffling, as the author is trying to suggest something apparently at odds with a point he himself developed.
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Old 2011-10-17, 14:59   Link #25116
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
I CAN'T BELIEVE RYUUKISHI HAS AN EDITOR!
Haha! It was actually mentioned in the last interview that Hagu translated. It mentions him receiving a call from his editor after he finished reading it and him saying something like "Is this really how you are going to end it?"

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-10-17 at 15:25.
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Old 2011-10-17, 15:15   Link #25117
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I've been working on a translation of that interview that was linked in the Translation Project thread.
THANK YOU!

Spoiler for May 2011 interview (just a small part):
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Old 2011-10-17, 15:17   Link #25118
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Haha! It was actually mentioned in the last interview that Hagu translated. It mentions him receiving a calling from his editor after he finished reading it and him saying something like "Is this really how you are going to end it?"
Haha, I should have noticed that before, but I missed it. I'm honestly shocked he has an editor because...there are many issues with the pacing that I thought an editor would have helped him work through.



As for the interview, all I'll say is that Ryuukishi's values are so fundamentally different from mine that I don't think even trying to understand the novel completely matters anymore simply because this is an answer based on the author's perception of human nature and I personally find his depiction of human nature inaccurate.

Which brings me back to my complaint of how there should have been a detective who served as a conductor to how the author perceived human nature--okay I'll stop.
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Old 2011-10-17, 15:28   Link #25119
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Wait, how can he be the editor and not know what the answer is?

How would he know what to edit?
Good question. I wish i had a good answer but the best I can come up with is that he limited himself to edit Japanese mistakes since he apparently couldn't edit the plot since he didn't know where the story was going...


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Disregarding what AT said for a moment, Kinzo was gruff, apparently totally uncaring about passing on his legacy, and despairing that everything he'd produced was worthless.

And crying over a person he knew only briefly, whom he would give anything to see again even one time.

Sounds to me like a person whose character arc went from exactly what the interview suggests to, well, exactly the opposite. He started out building a legacy and regretted it. Now he no longer cares. It isn't a simple thing. Which makes the interview part kind of baffling, as the author is trying to suggest something apparently at odds with a point he himself developed.
The only way for his point to make sense is that in truth Kinzo was really a cheerful grandfather who happily played with his grandchildren and got over his loss of Beatrice.

In short if his behaviour presented in 7 games was completely and utterly false.

To be honest I don't like that much to think that the Kinzo we've known was completely fictional and that real Kinzo was the exact opposite...
Also wouldn't this mean that, since Kinzo's behaviour is apparently what Ryukishi deems a 'womanly one' the 7 tales are from a woman point of view?
...
Considering I though them being based with Toya/Battler's memories and thoughts I'm not sure how this makes sense... unless Ikuko had a greater than I though influence in creating the setting for the games...
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Old 2011-10-17, 15:32   Link #25120
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh hi the entirety of Yasu's backstory confirmign that Kinzo's motive was exactly what it was portrayed as all this time.
Really? There seems to be some issues even then about who the real Kinzo was. Is it the one he talks about or the one in the red guts scene? Is EP6 Battler channeling the real Kinzo in the way he acts with Chick Beatrice? Is Kinzo the one Natsuhi remembers? The one Battler tries to show Ange?

Not trying to defend RKs statements, there is SOME consistency to them if you combine them with previous ones. Its just that his execution kinda falls flat do to the nature of the story and what Sherringford keeps harping on
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