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Old 2011-10-18, 13:44   Link #25141
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But Yasu arguably is and she's all of them! Don't matter (and Ryukishi probably doesn't define Yasu as a servant; indeed, what defines one as a servant in the first place is left undefined anyway).
I guess Ryukishi's idea is that Yasu 'stopped' being a servant when she became Kinzo's 'heir' and the owner of the gold. By that point, she was the unofficial master of the house and merely posing as a servant.
I think Ryukishi saw as unimportant the fact that she was officially hired by the Ushiromiya, working for them and getting paid for.

Basically we were supposed to guess that Yasu had solved the epitaph and gotten the gold, stopping being a mere servant and rising to the rank of 'master' and therefore of possible culprit.

Technically it can work.

The fact we also have to like it however is up to debate.
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Old 2011-10-18, 13:46   Link #25142
orangejuicetang
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Assuming Shannon and Kanon to be the same person, how does the Ep 3 closed room loop work with Shannon's corpse discovered in one location and Kanon's in another?
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Old 2011-10-18, 13:53   Link #25143
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Hmmm.. thinking about it further... it could just be Bern's opinion that Kyrie would have murdered everyone regardless. But why those dates, specifically?
I guess the trigger for the murders are two:
the first is that the siblings are in huge financial troubles, which is worse in Kirye and Rudolf's case as it seems their business aren't that legal and they might be dealing with dangerous people
the second is that the epitaph's riddle is handled to the siblings.

In Ep 7 Bern says Lion wouldn't have accepted as head so Kinzo would have told the siblings 'well, then, if you want another head I'll pick up whoever will solve the epitaph'. From here it's easy to assume the siblings joined forces to solve it then, once they found the gold, ended up making the same things they did in Rokenjima Prime (going on a killing rampage).

Bern points at Kirye as the one who would kill Lion but Umineko implied there were some murders that were accidental so it's possible Kirye didn't really kill everyone, just part of the people on Rokkenjima.
We're given the gold and the financial troubles as a motive for her actions, it's possible there's more but Umineko doesn't really bother much with offering other explanations so, if there are, it's up to speculation.
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Old 2011-10-18, 13:56   Link #25144
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Yasu cannot be the sole culprit if what was said at the end of EP7 is true. Remember how Lion was brought back to his world on the same night, and the murder spree was already under way? Bernkastel seemed to imply that even if Yasu was not an active agent, things would devolve into mass murder regardless.
It depends. Sole culprit of what? If the first two episodes were indeed written before the event, then what we got on those was what Yasu expected to happen had no one solved the Epitaph - i.e. she murdered them all and blew up the island.
So, even if what we saw on EP7's Tea Party was an indication of what happened in R. Prime and the whole thing was circumstantial killing and everyone basically riding on the opportunity (which seems to be supported by what we saw in EP8), it shouldn't have had an effect on what we read in the first two eps - nor should it have much effect in the events in EP3 and EP4 since those two should also follow the answers of the first two eps.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:00   Link #25145
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Assuming Shannon and Kanon to be the same person, how does the Ep 3 closed room loop work with Shannon's corpse discovered in one location and Kanon's in another?
Either the siblings lied and things actually weren't as we were told or Shannon, whose corpse was the first being found, revived as soon as they left her alone, hurried to dress up as Kanon and managed to pose as a dead Kanon just in time for the siblings to find her.

Chose if you want to believe the siblings lied or were tricked and do your pick.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:01   Link #25146
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Assuming Shannon and Kanon to be the same person, how does the Ep 3 closed room loop work with Shannon's corpse discovered in one location and Kanon's in another?
She got up and became Kanon while everyone else where being led to each one of the crime scenes. Its not like an adult stayed inside the room at all times making sure a corpse wouldn't get up and run into the chapel.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:01   Link #25147
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
and i haven't read ep8 yet so please tell me if there's a red saying that yasu is not the culprit. However It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! so yasu is not the culprit? or shannon and kanon can't be the culprit's but yasu can ,becouse she's not a servant ?
PS.SORRY IF I DIDN"T MAKE ANY SENSE.
There is no such red for Yasu's innocence, but "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!" actually works both in the real world and in Beatrice's fiction since in the fiction the culprit is actually the "witch" Beatrice (who is in fact a part of Yasu that does not think of herself as a servant), and in the real world Yasu is innocent (or so I believe).

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, was just thinking about this...

Yasu cannot be the sole culprit if what was said at the end of EP7 is true. Remember how Lion was brought back to his world on the same night, and the murder spree was already under way? Bernkastel seemed to imply that even if Yasu was not an active agent, things would devolve into mass murder regardless.
Yeah, and without Yasu's insane love-murder-suicide stuff, the only motive left would be over the inheritance... which pretty much means it's the adults that caused everything. Of course your mileage may vary on how much to trust Bernkastel's scenes, but there's still plenty of other reasons to believe this.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Of course the real problem is Ryukishi not having an editor. 8) ... Although, does he have one for Higabana? I sure hope so...
I've read most of Higanbana. It is not that long, and not that slow.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Thanks guys.
and there's only 1 culprit right?
If you count accomplices then...

Ep1: at least Yasu, Genji, Eva, Hideyoshi, Nanjo, Maria.
Ep2: at least Yasu, Genji, Rosa, Gohda.
Ep3: at least Yasu, Eva. Rudolf and Kyrie are possible as well.
Ep4: at least Yasu. Probably others as well.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
also why do you think eva shot battler?
maybe she thought he was the culprit? or went completly insane
She obviously didn't kill Nanjo, and it's unlikely she killed George, and I heard that the manga has this line: Eva did not kill Hideyoshi. I'm sure she wasn't in her right mind by the time she shot Battler regardless of who was a culprit. In any case, episode 3's second twilight was clearly not Yasu's doing.

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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Assuming Shannon and Kanon to be the same person, how does the Ep 3 closed room loop work with Shannon's corpse discovered in one location and Kanon's in another?
Shannon was in the first room, and Kanon in the last. Shannon would have to sneak over to the chapel to play dead Kanon after the adults left the parlor. It's pointlessly risky, I know, but still possible.

EDIT: Wow. Ninja'd twice.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:07   Link #25148
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Quote:
Yasu cannot be the sole culprit if what was said at the end of EP7 is true. Remember how Lion was brought back to his world on the same night, and the murder spree was already under way? Bernkastel seemed to imply that even if Yasu was not an active agent, things would devolve into mass murder regardless.
It depends. Sole culprit of what? If the first two episodes were indeed written before the event, then what we got on those was what Yasu expected to happen had no one solved the Epitaph - i.e. she murdered them all and blew up the island.
So, even if what we saw on EP7's Tea Party was an indication of what happened in R. Prime and the whole thing was circumstantial killing and everyone basically riding on the opportunity (which seems to be supported by what we saw in EP8), it shouldn't have had an effect on what we read in the first two eps - nor should it have much effect in the events in EP3 and EP4 since those two should also follow the answers of the first two eps.
Yasu planned to be the mastermind for the whole murdering thing in the episodes.
She had accomplices though and other people might have ended up shoting at people (for esample in Ep 3 Eva shooting at Jessica by mistake and at Battler apparently by purpose).

In Rokenjima Prime however things went differently from the games and it's possible Yasu never harmed anyone or even planned to harm someone for real (it had been suggested Yasu might have been behind a mystery game in which people wouldn't die for real).
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:13   Link #25149
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Anyways, the whole scene in EP7 felt forced. The moment they started mentioning that their predicament was straight out of a mystery novel sent flags flying everywhere. Will using his laws and them not having any effect reinforced that idea. But Berns truth at the end...was there a trick in the original japanese version that she could have altered the last words to state it as a negative?
In Ep 8 Bern said in Ep 7 she was saying a 'truth of some sort' or something along the line and that it's Ange's fault for not letting her finish to say her sentence or we would have known this by Ep 7.
In short apparently she was telling in red she wasn't saying the exact truth but was stopped before finishing to explain it. -_-

However, I'm waiting for that part of Ep 8 to be translated to have a better translation about Bern's exact words...
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:16   Link #25150
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I guess Ryukishi's idea is that Yasu 'stopped' being a servant when she became Kinzo's 'heir' and the owner of the gold. By that point, she was the unofficial master of the house and merely posing as a servant.
I think Ryukishi saw as unimportant the fact that she was officially hired by the Ushiromiya, working for them and getting paid for.

Basically we were supposed to guess that Yasu had solved the epitaph and gotten the gold, stopping being a mere servant and rising to the rank of 'master' and therefore of possible culprit.

Technically it can work.
"Technically," servant could have been defined as "a blue elephant," as it was never actually specifically defined by anyone in the story.

But that's unfair. If no definition is given (for "dead" or "servant" or any other perfectly normal word), we ought to assume the ordinary meaning applies. If it doesn't, it falls upon the person using a definition to define it.

Most people think of a servant as someone employed in a particular way. Believing oneself to not be employed that way generally doesn't change the fact that one remains so employed as long as there is no knowledge otherwise. So from Will's perspective, it seems dirty pool. You can argue he just handwaved it because that wasn't the point, of course. It just makes him a nice person. It still cheats.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:24   Link #25151
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Thanks guy's .
also why do you think eva shoted battler?
meaby she tought he was the culprit? or wen't completly insane
This particular case in EP3 had me suspecting something was up with that whole scene. EP4 pretty much sealed it for me that Eva was hiding something regarding Rokkenjima. I seriously believe (and still do) that something happened in Rokkenjima and she was forced to react in a matter that she later regretted. It comes down to the details of it though, did she kill the person knowing full well that they where the culprit? Did she think that they where the culprit and shot them and still think they where the culprits? Did she shoot someone thinking that they where the culprit and then found out that they where completely innocent?

My belief at the time was that the one that would cause her the most grief and the one that would give her the most motivation to adopt Ange afterwards was that she killed someone she thought was a culprit and then found out they where actually innocent. So she shot and killed Rudolph, Kyrie or Battler and then found one or all of them where innocent. Then things kinda played out the way they did in EP7 so I was sorta satisfied by it.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Ep 8 Bern said in Ep 7 she was saying a 'truth of some sort' or something along the line and that it's Ange's fault for not letting her finish to say her sentence or we would have known this by Ep 7.
In short apparently she was telling in red she wasn't saying the exact truth but was stopped before finishing to explain it. -_-

However, I'm waiting for that part of Ep 8 to be translated to have a better translation about Bern's exact words...
I was thinking more on the lines of Bern ending the sentence going "arima-" and Ange going insane without listening to the final part which could have inverted the meaning of what was being said. But wouldn't that be a little too obvious for native speakers?

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-10-18 at 14:40.
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Old 2011-10-18, 14:42   Link #25152
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It doesn't matter whether Yasu was or was not "technically" a servant. That red truth was applied to a separate fiction that Will was investigating, not Bernkastel's fragment or any of Beatrice's fragments.

@Wanderer:
Add Nanjo to the list for EP3, since he's pretty much the only one who could have closed the second floor window after George escaped the guesthouse. Also, since Battler didn't see any footprints outside the window he checked, there's a good chance George went through a different one that wouldn't attract attention -- say, the one in Nanjo's room.
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Old 2011-10-18, 17:54   Link #25153
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Technically," servant could have been defined as "a blue elephant," as it was never actually specifically defined by anyone in the story.

But that's unfair. If no definition is given (for "dead" or "servant" or any other perfectly normal word), we ought to assume the ordinary meaning applies. If it doesn't, it falls upon the person using a definition to define it.

Most people think of a servant as someone employed in a particular way. Believing oneself to not be employed that way generally doesn't change the fact that one remains so employed as long as there is no knowledge otherwise. So from Will's perspective, it seems dirty pool. You can argue he just handwaved it because that wasn't the point, of course. It just makes him a nice person. It still cheats.
Yes, it's trickery and I don't like it.
However in mystery trickery can be used here and there but I think Umineko overdid it. There are too many things you've to guess about Yasu to solve this trickery. The mysteries about Yasu are simply too complex and not of the 'common type'.
They aren't tied to normal standard behaviour or conditions so grow exponentially hard to solve and I often find the solution not that satisfing.

That's the part that annoys me the most; not having to guess Yasu not being accounted as a servant because she's the master but having to guess all the backstory that allowed her to become the master, the reasons for which she hid it and therefore how she managed to disguise herself as a servant.
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Old 2011-10-18, 17:56   Link #25154
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Basically we were supposed to guess that Yasu had solved the epitaph and gotten the gold, stopping being a mere servant and rising to the rank of 'master' and therefore of possible culprit.
Or even more to the point, she was a fake servant. She was brought to the house knowingly as an Ushiromiya granddaughter/son and heir by Genji and only made to be a servant to keep her identity hidden from her and everyone else. So to begin with she was never really a servant.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
[About EP3 chain room murders and Shkannon...] Either the siblings lied and things actually weren't as we were told or Shannon, whose corpse was the first being found, revived as soon as they left her alone, hurried to dress up as Kanon and managed to pose as a dead Kanon just in time for the siblings to find her. Chose if you want to believe the siblings lied or were tricked and do your pick.
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also why do you think eva shoted battler?
meaby she tought he was the culprit? or wen't completly insane
I put these two quotes together. It is as jjblue said, Shannon/Kanon were basically walking around. But's also helped by nearly half the surviving adults being in on the plot in some way or another. There is a lot more evidence for the siblings to be lying for Yasu. If you look at the adults in Yasu's employ at the beginning of the game it's this:

Rudolf (possibly)
Kyrie (possibly)
Krauss (possibly)
Eva (was acting as the Key of the the Twilight in that game--see my signature link for an explanation of this and the Epitaph Game theory)

Kumasawa
Nanjo
Genji
Gouda

Now, maybe not ALL of them know everyone else is on the same team, but there exists a lot of ability for Krauss and Eva to lead people around. Maybe they all knew the plot and were surprised at how well everyone else was buying into the story, not realizing they ALL were told to act that way. That would be pretty funny. And also, if Eva knows, you can bet Hideyoshi knows. 8) Time to re-read EP3 with that in mind... his shenanigans later on make a lot more sense in light of that.


As for why Eva shot Battler, this goes back to the Key Theory. We know now that they're playing a game (at least initially) to fake deaths based on the Epitaph. The theory goes that the Key that chooses the 6 and guides people to the golden land must also be chosen. In EP1, it's Natsuhi. In EP2, it's Rosa. In EP3 it's Eva. In EP4, it's Kyrie. In EP1-3 all three keys do their guiding; which is to guide Battler. This theory along with the clues from the story is in my signature link.

What happened with Eva is that she was doing her job properly, somewhat sticking to Battler, except when she needed to go off and check on the gold herself. Towards the end of the game, however, she starts getting suspicious that the deaths are real but she can't figure why it's been happening. Plus she may have eliminated others herself (Krauss and Natsuhi). So Battler ends up being the most suspicious person on her list; whether she thinks he's innocent or not, Battler, in her mind, is the beneficiary of the game, which had turned deadly at that time. Because he's supposed to survive all of it.


Anyways, once you see how long the list of people who are accomplices in the Epitaph Game, you can see how easily it was pulled off. The actual murdering is a different matter of course. And some aren't really accomplices, but have had enough motivation to do simply as told. "Rosa! Get Maria, lie down and play dead and you can have some gold!" "Natsuhi, stick with Battler and don't let him out of your sight and you can become the next head!" 8)

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It depends. Sole culprit of what?
Oh, sorry. I mean like, the ones who have a full view of the island and everything going on. The one who knows that everyone will be murdered, whether by their own hand or they just know there's a perfect storm of murder shaping up. Yasu's definitely in a position to know all this... is there anyone else?

You know, the ingredients for this are: Krauss' investigation into all siblings (which may have been Yasu's initiative) or somehow knowing every siblings' situation. The situation with George. The explosives. Kinzo's death. Anything else I left off? EDIT: Duhh.. how could I forget the Epitaph game... 8)

If someone knows all (or most?) of these and has a reason to murder, then they would see this as an opportunity, assuming they're smart enough to plan for it. (So.. no Gouda... ) GENSAWAJO may have been in a position to know what Yasu knows, being her primary help.


What I'd REALLY like to know is how much did Jessica and George knows.... We still don't know if Jessica even knows Kinzo is dead! It was carefully evaded between EP5 and 6. We've gotten the view from literally every other character except her and George. I smell something suspicious. Is there some way of working out what they know?


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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
My belief at the time was that the one that would cause her the most grief and the one that would give her the most motivation to adopt Ange afterwards was that she killed someone she thought was a culprit and then found out they where actually innocent. So she shot and killed Rudolph, Kyrie or Battler and then found one or all of them where innocent. Then things kinda played out the way they did in EP7 so I was sorta satisfied by it.
That was my thinking too. I think the characterization for Eva is that she can get aggressive if she becomes suspicious. She's not afraid to act if too many bad things happen. Similar for Kyrie in that she can become coldly logical if she needs to be. And while this is not normally a cause for concern, people aren't normally thrust into murder parties that suddenly turn real. 8)

By the way, I was wondering about Kyrie's admission to Battler at the end. I think Kyrie had from the start planned to abandon her role as the Key of the Epitaph, as I bet she figured it was extremely suspicious. But at the end, or somewhere in the middle, Rudolf tells her Battler is her son. This probably ends up happening in every episode if those two can survive for very long. So then she has a change of attitude but is already separated from him. So all she can do is call him.

The reason why she would go along with telling him a witch did it is that she doesn't want Battler to think badly of her. Rather than explain how she may have killed a few people at the end, she chose the lie that was given to her in the end, despite her possibly being coerced into saying it. Maybe?

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-10-18 at 18:23.
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Old 2011-10-18, 17:59   Link #25155
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Shannon was in the first room, and Kanon in the last. Shannon would have to sneak over to the chapel to play dead Kanon after the adults left the parlor. It's pointlessly risky, I know, but still possible.

EDIT: Wow. Ninja'd twice.
Well, that would at least explain how they made the closed room, sort of.
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Old 2011-10-18, 18:16   Link #25156
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By the way, I was wondering about Kyrie's admission to Battler at the end. I think Kyrie had from the start planned to abandon her role as the Key of the Epitaph, as I bet she figured it was extremely suspicious. But at the end, or somewhere in the middle, Rudolf tells her Battler is her son. This probably ends up happening in every episode if those two can survive for very long. So then she has a change of attitude but is already separated from him. So all she can do is call him.

The reason why she would go along with telling him a witch did it is that she doesn't want Battler to think badly of her. Rather than explain how she may have killed a few people at the end, she chose the lie that was given to her in the end, despite her possibly being coerced into saying it. Maybe?
I'm not sure Kirye ever found out Battler was her son. In Ep 7 she's the one who phone at him sending him to take the test. It's possible in Ep 4 she did the same because she thought this would give him a chance to either trick him (in case she wanted him to survive) or strike him (in case she wanted him dead).

I've also the feeling that, in Rokkenjima Prime Battler found out she was his mother but she never knew or found out when it was too late and therefore ended up showing him the hate she had felt for Asumu and for him by default.

It's possible she even attempted to kill him and this is one of the truths that Ange would do better not knowing.
Her beloved mother trying to kill her beloved brother. Decidedly not a happy thought.
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Old 2011-10-18, 18:32   Link #25157
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not sure Kirye ever found out Battler was her son. In Ep 7 she's the one who phone at him sending him to take the test. It's possible in Ep 4 she did the same because she thought this would give him a chance to either trick him (in case she wanted him to survive) or strike him (in case she wanted him dead).
Well in EP7, she was portrayed (by Eva's diary? or Eva Beatrice at least, the source of the story that Bern presented) as not even caring for Ange. She even said that she just used Ange to tie Rudolf down... 8) Not that I don't believe there are women who would do that, but it seems to me like some sort of Eva's justification for killing and not the real Kyrie at all.

Anyways, in EP1, it's shown that Rudolf was going to tell them anyways. And it happened in EP8 as well. I take this to mean that this is a common occurrence, by Yasu-Beatrice and Tooya-Battler's estimation. So it's a good thing to check Kyrie's behaviour in all games to see if she suddenly acts like she found this out. EP4 seems like a good candidate for this sudden change in personality.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's possible she even attempted to kill him and this is one of the truths that Ange would do better not knowing. Her beloved mother trying to kill her beloved brother. Decidedly not a happy thought.
Oh yah, this brings up with Used Can was saying. He thought Eva tried to hide what happened from Ange and yet adopted her because her feeling of guilt because of what she had done. Maybe we can take this one step further; because she also didn't want Ange to find out what Kyrie had done...

That's the feeling I got from EP8 anyways. Everyone was trying to protect Ange from knowing what Kyrie did. Or at least what Eva thought Kyrie did, which at that time when she wrote in the diary was something really, really evil. And you know Ange had no capability to think kindly of anyone at that time... heh. (i.e. mistaking the worst thing you can find out about people as the solid truth of that person..)
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Old 2011-10-18, 18:47   Link #25158
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I was thinking more on the lines of Bern ending the sentence going "arima-" and Ange going insane without listening to the final part which could have inverted the meaning of what was being said. But wouldn't that be a little too obvious for native speakers?
It was not really that obvious, though of course it was reasonable to question Bern.
Her sentence in EP7 was「これは全て真実」 (All that is the truth), not finished by any dot or something along those lines, because she is interrupted by Ange's screams.
In EP8 she says that she was originally going to say that 「……これは全て真実、“とは限らない”と続けようとしたのよ。」(...I was going to say that "this does not necessarily limits itself to", All that is the truth.). Even in that sentence she seems to be basically lying in order to get Ange to read the Book of the One and Only Truth, because she is unwilling based on the fact that Bern already showed her something that she called "the truth".
The word she uses, 限らない (kagiranai), means "not being limited to something" or "not being the only...". Therefore she basically all she says even in EP8 is, that what she showed in EP7 is not THE truth, but a very likely rendition of a part of that truth.
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Old 2011-10-18, 19:47   Link #25159
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Well in EP7, she was portrayed (by Eva's diary? or Eva Beatrice at least, the source of the story that Bern presented) as not even caring for Ange. She even said that she just used Ange to tie Rudolf down... 8) Not that I don't believe there are women who would do that, but it seems to me like some sort of Eva's justification for killing and not the real Kyrie at all.
I'm not using just Ep 7 as basis. In Ep 3 we hear she was jealous for 18 years (Battler's age) not just 12 (the time Asumu and Rudolf spent together) and in Ep 6 she's saying she hated Asumu so much she wanted to kill her.

In Ep 4 we theoretically deal with her sister, however since it seems that scene is fictional as Ange won't die on Rokkenjima, it's possible we're viewing a really distorted version of what happened in Rokkenjima with Kasumi playing Kirie's role and Ange playing Battler's role. Kasumi said she hated Kirye and continued to hate her even after she died so she thought to kill Ange.
It's possible it actually was Kirye who told Battler she hated Asumu and thought to kill him.
As for the 'she used Ange to tie Rudolf', I tend to think that discussion went differently and she accused Asumu to use Battler to tie Rudolf down... and still using him as Rudolf seems pretty fond of Battler and she seems to view this fondness as a tie between Rudolf and Asumu.

Ep 7 present a Kirye that's not troubled at all by Rudolf's death, which is weird considering how badly she wanted him. So either what she said and did was pretty different or either she was faking coldness in order to push Eva to kill her and take care of Ange afterward because she didn't want to go back in a hell without Rudolf.

I think that, after wanting to get Rudolf so badly, if she were not to be troubled at all by his death, but felt free, this would imply she's rather insane... and I hope that's not what Ryukishi had in mind for her...

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Anyways, in EP1, it's shown that Rudolf was going to tell them anyways. And it happened in EP8 as well. I take this to mean that this is a common occurrence, by Yasu-Beatrice and Tooya-Battler's estimation. So it's a good thing to check Kyrie's behaviour in all games to see if she suddenly acts like she found this out. EP4 seems like a good candidate for this sudden change in personality.
Rudolf wanted to tell but apparently he never makes in time to tell the truth. In Ep 1 he dies, in Ep 5 other things happen, in Ep 6 he believes (or pretends to) that Kirye and Battler are dead.

In the end he'll tell Kirye only in Ep 8 but in it is again implied Kirye, before learning the truth, didn't feel sympathy for Battler and anyway Ep 8 is constructed as if it was placed post the Rokkenjima tragedy so at best in my mind I can stretch things and say she learnt the truth after having been fatally injured... if she ever learnt it.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh yah, this brings up with Used Can was saying. He thought Eva tried to hide what happened from Ange and yet adopted her because her feeling of guilt because of what she had done. Maybe we can take this one step further; because she also didn't want Ange to find out what Kyrie had done...

That's the feeling I got from EP8 anyways. Everyone was trying to protect Ange from knowing what Kyrie did. Or at least what Eva thought Kyrie did, which at that time when she wrote in the diary was something really, really evil. And you know Ange had no capability to think kindly of anyone at that time... heh. (i.e. mistaking the worst thing you can find out about people as the solid truth of that person..)
I think the truth as it was, was something pretty cruel to learn. Likely, if we could learn the reasons of the culprit, maybe we could deal with it better. Or maybe not.

However either Eva didn't know them or they too hurt Ange (if Kirye's motivation was something cruel Ange would be hurt, if Kirye's motivation was she needed money fast because someone was threatening Ange, Ange would still be hurt because she would be the reason behind her mother's actions).

Either way since Kirye doesn't get to state her point of view we can't know it as well...
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Old 2011-10-19, 02:35   Link #25160
Judoh
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
There is no such red for Yasu's innocence, but "It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!" actually works both in the real world and in Beatrice's fiction since in the fiction the culprit is actually the "witch" Beatrice (who is in fact a part of Yasu that does not think of herself as a servant), and in the real world Yasu is innocent (or so I believe).
While It's a bit unfair hint wise. But you could also argue that this red truth was never spoken by Will on the "rokkenjima gameboard". And that it therefore does not apply to beato's game.
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