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Old 2011-10-22, 23:34   Link #25261
AuraTwilight
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How do we know he doesn't? In fact, the scenario I'm going by is that he's simply trying to stick to the fantasy given to him in order to keep some of his sanity and happiness. So, rather than trying to put the blame on anyone, he's simply rejecting Battler and all those sorrowful things.
We have evidence he doesn't know.

Do you have evidence that he does know?

Otherwise our positions aren't equal, and mine stands above yours. Fuck, Umineko had a whole SCENE about this.

Quote:
I've never said he has that information. My point is (as far as my interpretation on him goes) Meta Battler is a representation of many things (rules of the game, thematics, Hachijō Tōya trying to recover his memories). So, if Yasu is feeding Tōya information in order to have those mixed with his memories so that he'll see the "truth" she wants him to see, BATTLER could be see as a representation of reaching the truth of THAT scenario.
Keyword here is "if."
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Old 2011-10-22, 23:48   Link #25262
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Honestly, if we're set to believe Yasu was ''so tragic for hating people for such awful reasons!'' Then we should also be set to believe that ''Yasu fucking cheated on 3 people and they should murder her because she doesn't understand how they feel about being played with to satisfy her masturbation of receiving love''.

If I tried to date 3 people and claimed my other personalities(or whatever we want to consider them at this point) are the ones who love those respective people...well fuck me. I don't think Yasu is in any position to kill anyone or even hate them for ''how selfish they are'', or ''how indirectly they hurt her feelings''.
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Old 2011-10-23, 01:08   Link #25263
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Sure. So nobody died in ep3. Because "dead" could just mean they all had a radical change of life and personality.

That is what you're saying.
Why should that be a point of concern if it's not supported by the narrative, Renall? The situation of no corpses being found on the island is consistent with the whole family changing their names and running off to Fiji with the gold, but nobody criticizes the narrative for leaving that possibility open because it isn't backed up by any evidence. Isn't this functionally the same thing with a different evidence space?
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Old 2011-10-23, 01:21   Link #25264
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Why should that be a point of concern if it's not supported by the narrative, Renall? The situation of no corpses being found on the island is consistent with the whole family changing their names and running off to Fiji with the gold, but nobody criticizes the narrative for leaving that possibility open because it isn't backed up by any evidence.
My god, I thought nobody criticized this because it's everybody's far preferred ending. Yes, it would've been kind of bullshitty, but I would be entirely fine if the very last thing we see / read, after all the credits, was the vague implication that the family had said "fuck it, we're rich", and we're in fact in Hawaii drinking Mai Tai's under new names.

Ahem.
Anyways, can't we all just agree that battler was incompetent in not asking for a clarification regarding the number of living bodies on Rokkenjima? This one of those moments where you can sort of tell the author made a character somewhat less sharp than they should have been, especially since Battler indulges in so many other weird permutations to account for the number of people. Hell, even though she doesn't do it until the Logic Error of Dawn, even Erika asked about it, eventually, when there was a person she couldn't account for. She asked somewhat poorly, but at least she asked. :-/
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Old 2011-10-23, 01:42   Link #25265
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what do you guy's think of rosa and maria?
did rosa realy mean those word's she said to maria ,when she was torturing her?
ofcourse that scene is not real ,but i wanna know if real rosa feel's that way.
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Old 2011-10-23, 02:57   Link #25266
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I don't think so. The sequence is obviously a dream or fantasy Maria's having in a fit of anger shortly after the Sakutarou incident, so she only brought out and exaggerated the worst parts of her mother. We've all done it.
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Old 2011-10-23, 02:57   Link #25267
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Ahem.
Anyways, can't we all just agree that battler was incompetent in not asking for a clarification regarding the number of living bodies on Rokkenjima? This one of those moments where you can sort of tell the author made a character somewhat less sharp than they should have been, especially since Battler indulges in so many other weird permutations to account for the number of people. Hell, even though she doesn't do it until the Logic Error of Dawn, even Erika asked about it, eventually, when there was a person she couldn't account for. She asked somewhat poorly, but at least she asked. :-/
There's also a red truth saying
Quote:
You are incompetent
used by beatrice while sneering at battler.

by the way, Did Will represents Toya in Ep7? also can Lion=ikuko? .i think Toya can be Will in a way that we know there's only one person that figure out the truth.Its Meta Battler. Meta Battler=Toya so its valid. This can explain why Battler was late for the burial since Toya was the one that figured it out.
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Old 2011-10-23, 03:14   Link #25268
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I don't think you're understanding at all. The point is that the Red Truth was given so that Battler could trust the words coming out of Beato's mouth. He can't. She lies in the Red Truth by making words mean things they do not mean in any sort of standard conversation. If you're going to redefine words to fit your purposes WITHOUT TELLING ANYONE, why the fuck bother with the red?
OK I get it, so metaphors are OK then, as long as the are not misleading (again I wonder why we had to argue over metaphors then). So I guess your beef just boils down to Beatrice's Reds using semantics to be misleading.

But semantic misleads from Red should be no surprise at all. They were obviously fair game; there were several times throughout episodes 3 and 4 where Battler suspected that Beatrice was trying to deceive him by using characters with multiple names, name transfers, or even multiple personalities. In episode 5 and 6 these kinds of thought patterns got even more exposure. These tricks are not qualitatively any different than S&K being fictional people; it's just that S&K being made up people was simply out of the realm of our thinking patterns to suspect. Sure, there were hints, but the idea of ShKanon was just too ridiculous to seriously consider. This bothered me (although less nowadays than it used to). I had long thought of the idea that S&K were the same person, but found the idea just plain stupid and dismissed it. So I do not like ShKanon, or at least how ShKanon was handled, but I would not go so far as to say that Beatrice betrayed the rules of the game.

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I'd disagree, since in the EP6 example, both involved Closed Rooms remained perfectly sealed, but used tricks involving Kanon technically not existing ANYWHERE.
One way to create or destroy a closed room is exactly that, though- being able to enter and exit it without unsealing it.

Interestingly Beatrice always had this hax ability, but never used it until episode 6. I think this was the "dirty trick" RK07 mentioned that Land was supposed to have used.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's perfectly in line with things. Once you allow for replacing the wording of a sentence with ANY SUBJECTIVE MEANING YOU WANT, then the Red Truth becomes meaningless because you can define different terms however you desire.
I don't think it works that "any subjective meaning you want" way. Your subjective statements have to still be a legitimate opinion/perspective that you have. I can't say coconut is delicious, because I really don't feel that way about coconut. But I can say politicians are scumbags, because I really do feel that way about politicians. And Beatrice really honest-to-God thinks of S&K as dead (at times), or else she couldn't say they were dead. When the whole point of the game is to serve as a journey to understand Beatrice's thinking, running into challenging situations where she thinks differently from the rest of us is a natural and necessary part of it.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What about Kinzo? He's dead at the start of all games, but maybe he discarded his Kinzo personality and became Goldsmith, living in Kuwadorian these past two years and is responsible for killing everyone? It's perfectly valid the way the Red has been used for Shannon and Kanon.
Sure, but so what? If you wanna believe that applying Reds to Kinzo the way they've been applied to S&K leaves room for him being alive, then knock yourself out. However, Kinzo is most certainly dead.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I mean shit, what the fuck? If we're going to let Yasu do this death thing because of her subjective emotions then why can't Battler say I am Ushiromiya Battler and Ushiromiya Asumu is my mom? His subjective feelings dictate this is true, and certainly even the general public would agree Asumu is meaningfully his mother due to raising him.
Maybe Battler knew that his mother wasn't Asumu but was in denial.
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Old 2011-10-23, 03:29   Link #25269
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by the way, Did Will represents Toya in Ep7? also can Lion=ikuko?
Almost definitely not. Will seems to represent, if anything, someone else who isn't Battler solving Yasu's mystery. Even though this person isn't the one she wanted, atleast someone understood her.

And Lion is an unperson. He's an idealized Yasu that could never be. But he's still beautiful, and worth saving, because of what he means to her.

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OK I get it, so metaphors are OK then, as long as the are not misleading (again I wonder why we had to argue over metaphors then). So I guess your beef just boils down to Beatrice's Reds using semantics to be misleading.
Semantics isn't the word I'd use; it implies a level of wordplay when really it's just flat out lying. If we're going to be subjective about what shit means, then why not just say A piece of candy appeared under the teacup with magic?

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But semantic misleads from Red should be no surprise at all. They were obviously fair game; there were several times throughout episodes 3 and 4 where Battler suspected that Beatrice was trying to deceive him by using characters with multiple names, name transfers, or even multiple personalities. In episode 5 and 6 these kinds of thought patterns got even more exposure. These tricks are not qualitatively any different than S&K being fictional people; it's just that S&K being made up people was simply out of the realm of our thinking patterns to suspect. Sure, there were hints, but the idea of ShKanon was just too ridiculous to seriously consider. This bothered me (although less nowadays than it used to). I had long thought of the idea that S&K were the same person, but found the idea just plain stupid and dismissed it. So I do not like ShKanon, or at least how ShKanon was handled, but I would not go so far as to say that Beatrice betrayed the rules of the game.
Name tricks and the like are a league apart from this "dead" issue. Why aren't people understanding this?

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One way to create or destroy a closed room is exactly that, though- being able to enter and exit it without unsealing it.

Interestingly Beatrice always had this hax ability, but never used it until episode 6. I think this was the "dirty trick" RK07 mentioned that Land was supposed to have used.
Fine, whatever. The point is the "With my power" red isn't comparable to the Shkanon death tricks.

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I don't think it works that "any subjective meaning you want" way. Your subjective statements have to still be a legitimate opinion/perspective that you have. I can't say coconut is delicious, because I really don't feel that way about coconut. But I can say politicians are scumbags, because I really do feel that way about politicians. And Beatrice really honest-to-God thinks of S&K as dead (at times), or else she couldn't say they were dead. When the whole point of the game is to serve as a journey to understand Beatrice's thinking, running into challenging situations where she thinks differently from the rest of us is a natural and necessary part of it.
So the red is absolutely meaningless, thanks for confirming that.

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Sure, but so what? If you wanna believe that applying Reds to Kinzo the way they've been applied to S&K leaves room for him being alive, then knock yourself out. However, Kinzo is most certainly dead.
The problem is that by allowing this, every piece of information we've ever been given becomes entirely pointless. We might as well have never gotten the Red Truth rule and we're right back to the earlier part of EP2, because everything is fucking bullshit now.

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Maybe Battler knew that his mother wasn't Asumu but was in denial.
I doubt it, considering Ange's speech to him soon after.
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Old 2011-10-23, 03:29   Link #25270
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
what do you guy's think of rosa and maria?
did rosa realy mean those word's she said to maria ,when she was torturing her?
ofcourse that scene is not real ,but i wanna know if real rosa feel's that way.
Of course there's no right or wrong answer, because it's one of those "who you have love for" situations. Buuuuuuut...

I think both Rosa and Maria have mixed feelings toward each other. Rosa loves her daughter but also feels restricted by her, and Maria reciprocates both of these feelings by both loving Rosa back but also feeling resentful for being unwanted.

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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post

by the way, Did Will represents Toya in Ep7? also can Lion=ikuko? .i think Toya can be Will in a way that we know there's only one person that figure out the truth.Its Meta Battler. Meta Battler=Toya so its valid. This can explain why Battler was late for the burial since Toya was the one that figured it out.
Will represents Toya in Ep7?
Possible.
can Lion=ikuko?
Lion=Yasu. If Yasu=Ikuko then Lion=Ikuko

Will being Touya and Lion being Yasu kind of explains their attraction for each other.
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Old 2011-10-23, 04:21   Link #25271
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Almost definitely not. Will seems to represent, if anything, someone else who isn't Battler solving Yasu's mystery. Even though this person isn't the one she wanted, atleast someone understood her.
That wasn't Battler to begin with its Toya. Two personality in one body.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

Will represents Toya in Ep7?
Possible.
can Lion=ikuko?
Lion=Yasu. If Yasu=Ikuko then Lion=Ikuko

Will being Touya and Lion being Yasu kind of explains their attraction for each other.
i'll change yasu to beatrice.if this is true to some extent Beatrice=ikuko and Battler=Toya then that means Beatrice won the love duel between the furniture with incomplete souls and they left the island. Beatrice change to ikuko. Battler doesn't know how Beatrice change her personality that easily. The result was he tried to have an amnesia by falling from a ship to forget the Battler persona. So that they will be on the same level of existence. In a Different personality.

Thats the conclusion i got from that.
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Old 2011-10-23, 06:50   Link #25272
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What about Kinzo? He's dead at the start of all games, but maybe he discarded his Kinzo personality and became Goldsmith, living in Kuwadorian these past two years and is responsible for killing everyone? It's perfectly valid the way the Red has been used for Shannon and Kanon.
Of course, if you have some sort of hint that Kinz˘ considered himself also the Sorcerer Goldsmith, then there is nothing wrong with your idea. The problem is that we find Kinz˘'s body in the games so he was apparently intended to die in a manner that couldn't be survived.

Quote:
And before you speak up, Toya Hachijo has memories of meeting Kanon and Shannon, meaning Yasu acted them out.
Does he? Help my memory where it is actually stated that T˘ya remembered the two of them. This is not about T˘ya doubting wether or not there might have been another servant named Kanon on that day, it is about definitely remembering those two. He can't even remember the order his parents or relatives died in, save who of them might have been a murderer.

Quote:
By the way you've clearly never read a mystery novel...or....Umineko? Because in Umineko, Battler sits around going "wtf happened?" While in a mystery novel he'd need to INVESTIGATE.
You should brush up your knowledge about mystery novels as well if you're starting to accuse people. There is a whole genre about detectives just sitting around, debating about a case and collecting clues by talking and listening. Those are armchair detective stories...there are even those where the detective never once enters the scene of crime.
Investigation can be a part of detective and mystery fiction, but it is not a defining factor. If there is any it is "there is a mystery which could be solvable or not" in mystery novels and "there is a character who apparently tries to solve the mystery" in detective novels.

If you claim that Umineko is not a mystery based on this idea, you are condemning whole sub-genres of mystery fiction to oblivion.
I understand that you're angry, but sometimes your argument misses the point if it is not really based on reality but purely on your own conception of something...in this case mystery fiction.

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In any other sort of intellectual game, if a term is redefined, that term is explained. You don't just change the rules on your players and not tell them. What if I was playing Dungeons and Dragons and didn't tell my players that, oh, by the way, casting spells drains from your HP instead of your MP now, and didn't tell them even after they cast the spell because I'm doing all the bookkeeping?
I'd rather say it is like this.
Imagine you played a special round in which you are secretly allowed to play not one but three characters. Therefore of course you wouldn't be removed from the game if one of your characters ran out of HP. If you played that game per mail or online, nobody would notice at first, but maybe they would notice that two characters have the same IP or that the others never move when one does.
By one of your characters dying you are not actually removed from the game, you are still an active player...technically you could even send out one of these characters (if he was a necromancer) and revive another.

Quote:
I mean shit, what the fuck? If we're going to let Yasu do this death thing because of her subjective emotions then why can't Battler say I am Ushiromiya Battler and Ushiromiya Asumu is my mom? His subjective feelings dictate this is true, and certainly even the general public would agree Asumu is meaningfully his mother due to raising him.
He could, there is no problem with your sentence. What he could't say was "I, Ushiromiya Battler, was born from Ushiromiya Asumu". Notice the difference?

Quote:
EP2 Meta-TIPS. However, it also says Genji is a homunculus, and that all three of them were created by Kinzo.

So...this isn't at all conductive to "Oh, Shannon and Kanon are made up personalities of whoever Beatrice is."
Thank you.
But I'd argue that by EP4 we get some proof that Kinz˘ is not something that is exclusive to the grandfather of the Ushiromiya family, it is something that can be usurped by others. Therefore if we use that knowledge and go back we could say that the Kinz˘ who created this furniture is the Kinz˘ we met in the games, not the person Ushiromiya Kinz˘.

The character I'd draw into question here is neither Kinz˘ nor Shkannon but Genji. Who was that demon who helped Kinz˘ create the furniture Genji? Why is he regarded furniture? I think you can draw theories on that...though you'd probably call them conjecture because the story does not provide a clear answer.
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Old 2011-10-23, 08:32   Link #25273
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also in ep4 when yasu takes hostage's. how can shannon and kannon be there? unless yasu told them to lie to about shannon and kannon being there . so the illusion of kannon and shannon as hostage's is created?
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Old 2011-10-23, 10:33   Link #25274
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also in ep4 when yasu takes hostage's. how can shannon and kannon be there? unless yasu told them to lie to about shannon and kannon being there . so the illusion of kannon and shannon as hostage's is created?
It's likely the entire hostage scene was fantasy.
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:01   Link #25275
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The character I'd draw into question here is neither Kinz˘ nor Shkannon but Genji. Who was that demon who helped Kinz˘ create the furniture Genji? Why is he regarded furniture? I think you can draw theories on that...though you'd probably call them conjecture because the story does not provide a clear answer.
As a thought experiment, Shkannon rules could be interesting to apply here. If you suppose that Ronove and Genji are in a similar position to Shannon and Kanon, basically Genji would be the perfect servant aspect and Ronove the prankster aspect who was Kinzo's partner in crime. Under the same rules as Shkannon, you can blow up the red about Genji not being a murderer and open up some fake death possibilities, at least in EP3+... I'm not sure if that would be a valid move before Ronove's introduction, but we were being told Genji was furniture earlier than that, so I think it would.
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:04   Link #25276
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It's likely the entire hostage scene was fantasy.
than krauss,nanjo and kyrie are helping her?
meaby they faked those calls ?
in ep5 lambda faked the man from 18 years ago (yasu)
.something like this:
Yasu killed everyone.Gohda and kumasawa somehow escaped .Yasu fake's the calls.
but why would gohda and kumasawa lie ? unless there helping yasu.
AGHHHHHHHH
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:15   Link #25277
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
than krauss,nanjo and kyrie are helping her?
meaby they faked those calls ?
in ep5 lambda faked the man from 18 years ago (yasu)
.something like this:
Yasu killed everyone.Gohda and kumasawa somehow escaped .Yasu fake's the calls.
but why would gohda and kumasawa lie ? unless there helping yasu.
AGHHHHHHHH
Nearly everyone in EP4 is an accomplice to fooling Battler, or becomes an accomplice after they split up from him. Remember how Jessica was holding back laughter on the phone, and said something like "I'm told that I'll be a corpse with my head split open"?
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:52   Link #25278
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
than krauss,nanjo and kyrie are helping her?
meaby they faked those calls ?
in ep5 lambda faked the man from 18 years ago (yasu)
.something like this:
Yasu killed everyone.Gohda and kumasawa somehow escaped .Yasu fake's the calls.
but why would gohda and kumasawa lie ? unless there helping yasu.
AGHHHHHHHH
Gohda and Kumasawa are lying. Remember, Kinzo is dead and no one would misidentify Kinzo, so it's pretty obvious they're lying about the scene in the dining hall.

Kyrie is lying too. Also, either Krauss or Jessica are lying (Jessica and Gohda are the only ones who talk to Krauss on the phone).

The only person who speaks with Nanjo is Kumasawa, who is a liar, so he's not necessarily even there either.

As to why there is so much lying going on, that's a subject of debate and speculation. Possible reasons include bribery, threats, or the murder game theory. I think the only calls that may be fake are the last ones by Jessica and Kyrie.
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:06   Link #25279
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That wasn't Battler to begin with its Toya. Two personality in one body.
I doubt Yasu would've cared. He's Battler enough.

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Of course, if you have some sort of hint that Kinz˘ considered himself also the Sorcerer Goldsmith, then there is nothing wrong with your idea. The problem is that we find Kinz˘'s body in the games so he was apparently intended to die in a manner that couldn't be survived.
It was someone else with polydactly burned beforehand as part of his ruse.

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Does he? Help my memory where it is actually stated that T˘ya remembered the two of them. This is not about T˘ya doubting wether or not there might have been another servant named Kanon on that day, it is about definitely remembering those two. He can't even remember the order his parents or relatives died in, save who of them might have been a murderer.
*points to the flashback of screenshots that briefly show Shannon and Kanon in them*

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You should brush up your knowledge about mystery novels as well if you're starting to accuse people. There is a whole genre about detectives just sitting around, debating about a case and collecting clues by talking and listening. Those are armchair detective stories...there are even those where the detective never once enters the scene of crime.
Keyword here is subgenre.

Quote:
Investigation can be a part of detective and mystery fiction, but it is not a defining factor. If there is any it is "there is a mystery which could be solvable or not" in mystery novels and "there is a character who apparently tries to solve the mystery" in detective novels.
Interviewing people is still investigation. It's also something Battler doesn't do.

Quote:
I'd rather say it is like this.
Imagine you played a special round in which you are secretly allowed to play not one but three characters. Therefore of course you wouldn't be removed from the game if one of your characters ran out of HP. If you played that game per mail or online, nobody would notice at first, but maybe they would notice that two characters have the same IP or that the others never move when one does.
By one of your characters dying you are not actually removed from the game, you are still an active player...technically you could even send out one of these characters (if he was a necromancer) and revive another.
Still not at all comparable. Within the fictional context of the RPG, all your characters have separate bodies, and even if someone does die and loses their only character, they themselves are still fine in real life.

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He could, there is no problem with your sentence. What he could't say was "I, Ushiromiya Battler, was born from Ushiromiya Asumu". Notice the difference?
Then have him say that. As long as we're dealing with subjective bullshit, why not? He was raised thinking he was the baby she gave birth to, and there's no one to contest it, and Asumu did have A baby.

If Yasu can redefine how dying works, Battler can redefine birth.

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But I'd argue that by EP4 we get some proof that Kinz˘ is not something that is exclusive to the grandfather of the Ushiromiya family, it is something that can be usurped by others. Therefore if we use that knowledge and go back we could say that the Kinz˘ who created this furniture is the Kinz˘ we met in the games, not the person Ushiromiya Kinz˘.
Alright, fine, but that concept comes AFTER EP2, and at the time I was arguing that Shkanon is nothing but a lucky guess in EP2.

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The character I'd draw into question here is neither Kinz˘ nor Shkannon but Genji. Who was that demon who helped Kinz˘ create the furniture Genji? Why is he regarded furniture? I think you can draw theories on that...though you'd probably call them conjecture because the story does not provide a clear answer.
Ronove.
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:37   Link #25280
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Then have him say that. As long as we're dealing with subjective bullshit, why not? He was raised thinking he was the baby she gave birth to, and there's no one to contest it, and Asumu did have A baby.

If Yasu can redefine how dying works, Battler can redefine birth.
He's not the Game Master. The GM is the arbiter of what gets accepted as red truth, so in the end everything would have to fit Beato's interpretation.
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