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Old 2011-10-24, 14:57   Link #25321
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
My main problem with the whole "what if Touya knew it" is that it escapes one problem (how Beatrice would've known it) and runs smack into another. Yes, Yasu/Beatrice doesn't need to have known it if it's an internalized thing specific to Touya's journey of self-discovery. But there's still one major issue I have with it.

Namely, why does this bother Touya? Ushiromiya Battler is a person he barely knows. His memories of Asumu may not even exist, or may barely exist (after all, we see almost no mention of her in the story). While it might trouble 18-year-old Battler to learn that Asumu wasn't really his birth mother after all, it shouldn't have such a surprising effect on 18+-year-old Touya.

Thematically, what does Battler's temporary negation mean in such a circumstance? Why would this information make him stop thinking, or stop "playing" his internal game with the witch? Why would he believe the witch in his head would get upset with "Battler" and try to get rid of him? What about all of that would've made him have a sudden mental breakdown or change of heart, and then what was it that got him right back into it? It's easy to understand the motivation for Battler, but if we take it a layer up and claim it's actually about Touya, then the motivation must also be his own. What was that motivation and what effect did it have on him?
Psychologically speaking, his issue with his mother might be tied to the 'Kirye is the culprit' theory.

It's one of those long 'chain theories' that at the same time amuse and annoy me because I can't check if they're right.

IF Kirye was the culprit, IF Battler knew she was the culprit and his mother, IF she didn't know he was her son and told him she hated him and possibly tried to kill him the resulting trauma might be one of the things that stop him to remember so he tried to distance himself from it rejecting the knowledge that Kirye was his mother or the culprit, using Beatrice as a scapegoat.

This however would require that:
Beatrice is a creature of Toya's mind
The figure of Beatrice has 'her' own goal, help Toya to deal with Battler/his memories either sealing them or recovering them and handling them.
Beatrice could care less about Yasu's goal, she could however decide that in order to reach her goal it can be useful also to reach Yasu's.

Also, if Toya wanted to get rid of his Battler's side, forcing him to deal with something that might have traumatized him might be the best way.

At the same time Toya, who doesn't want to become Battler, might also have, among his motivations, he doesn't want to be the son of the woman who murdered all his relatives.


But you've to link it all to the Kirye culprit theory, assume a bunch of things about it and then toss in some pcychological explanations, shake it al and hope the resulting coctail will be tasteful because you couldn't check the recipe while doing it and you've no idea if you've picked up the right ingredients... -_-
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:05   Link #25322
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
To see that, I think you can look at Beato's accusation at the time. Tohya knows he was on the island because he has fragmented memories of it, but all this time he's thought it was because he was Battler. If he wasn't really Battler, why was he there? Did he really come there as part of some financial scheme? Given that he didn't want to accept any of the family members as murderers, does that mean he's the murderer himself?

Battler's existence failure might correspond to Tohya fleeing from that possibility and not wanting to think about it anymore.
It's an interestening point. Toya refusing Battler but knowing he was on the island might cause him a 'brain failure' if I can put it in this way because it would cause him to think he was there for potentially criminal reasons.

It forces him to deal with the fact he's in fact Battler and that he has a tie with Ange.

It can also fit with Battler's fear of having been the culprit which is both in Ep 4 & 5 and that could have been passed to Toya as well or better that can belong to Toya.

Maybe he feared if he managed to survive to the Rokkenjima incident it was because he was the culprit. His denial of Battler could have also been based on this.

Definitely an interesting idea.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:13   Link #25323
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Quote:
My main problem with the whole "what if Touya knew it" is that it escapes one problem (how Beatrice would've known it) and runs smack into another. Yes, Yasu/Beatrice doesn't need to have known it if it's an internalized thing specific to Touya's journey of self-discovery. But there's still one major issue I have with it.

Namely, why does this bother Touya? Ushiromiya Battler is a person he barely knows. His memories of Asumu may not even exist, or may barely exist (after all, we see almost no mention of her in the story). While it might trouble 18-year-old Battler to learn that Asumu wasn't really his birth mother after all, it shouldn't have such a surprising effect on 18+-year-old Touya.

Thematically, what does Battler's temporary negation mean in such a circumstance? Why would this information make him stop thinking, or stop "playing" his internal game with the witch? Why would he believe the witch in his head would get upset with "Battler" and try to get rid of him? What about all of that would've made him have a sudden mental breakdown or change of heart, and then what was it that got him right back into it? It's easy to understand the motivation for Battler, but if we take it a layer up and claim it's actually about Touya, then the motivation must also be his own. What was that motivation and what effect did it have on him?
Shit like this is why I believe that the Meta-World stuff actually happened, by the way. Because otherwise Ryukishi has more plotholes to answer for.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:48   Link #25324
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It seems a little odd though, unless Touya's memories were vague enough that he was never actually sure if he was Battler or somebody else. It's not like he can accidentally remember Battler's memories if he isn't him.

Granted I guess if he thinks he's being groomed to "become" Battler or something he might get in an existential panic about it, but I don't recall any specific Misery vibes from Ikuko that would suggest she's that possessive.

Other than keeping him at her house. And his legs not working. From something she says was his fault...

...uh-oh.
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:51   Link #25325
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Wait, does Ikuko have romantic tension towards Touya?
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Old 2011-10-24, 16:02   Link #25326
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It seems a little odd though, unless Touya's memories were vague enough that he was never actually sure if he was Battler or somebody else. It's not like he can accidentally remember Battler's memories if he isn't him.

Granted I guess if he thinks he's being groomed to "become" Battler or something he might get in an existential panic about it, but I don't recall any specific Misery vibes from Ikuko that would suggest she's that possessive.

Other than keeping him at her house. And his legs not working. From something she says was his fault...

...uh-oh.
I've gotten the feeling Toya started recovering his memories slowly, so in the beginning it could be they were vague and he couldn't be 100% sure he was Battler... though I guess we need someone who can read the scene to check if this is true...

LOL I know, I know, everyone says Ikuko is a nice person but, each time I read about Toya's condition I get a 'Misery' flashback.
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Old 2011-10-24, 16:10   Link #25327
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It seems a little odd though, unless Touya's memories were vague enough that he was never actually sure if he was Battler or somebody else. It's not like he can accidentally remember Battler's memories if he isn't him.

Granted I guess if he thinks he's being groomed to "become" Battler or something he might get in an existential panic about it, but I don't recall any specific Misery vibes from Ikuko that would suggest she's that possessive.

Other than keeping him at her house. And his legs not working. From something she says was his fault...

...uh-oh.
I would give the Touya != Battler theory some credit if Touya didn't remember details about Ange. He even said he remembered everything before the island clearly. He wouldn't say that... unless she pulled a really strange psychological number on him...

But the Misery comparison does not require Touya != Battler. It works just fine if Ikuko = Yasu and Touya = Battler. How she hides him from the public is creepy enough in either case.

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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Wait, does Ikuko have romantic tension towards Touya?
Nothing overtly presented, but there's room for it. Unlike Touya, we never see anything from Ikuko's perspective.

------------------------

You know, how can Beatrice, purely as a meta-projection in Touya's mind, not only play Gamemaster but also make difficulty adjustments on the fly as the games go on? It makes more sense if she's an external force reacting and adapting to BATTLER.

Ikuko is Yasu. Meta-discussions are proxy discussions between the shadow of Beatrice remaining in Ikuko and the shadow of Battler remaining in Touya; they are conducted through their respective roles in reading, writing, and cowriting.

Thematic evidence for Ikuko=Yasu is there.
  • Ikuko's name can be read as 1-9-child.
  • Ikuko's name also means "Many children". Makes sense if she's responsible for the creation of these numerous fictional characters/identities.
  • Not only is Ikuko's name readable as 19, but there's also a commonality in the numerical-based names of Sayo, Yoshiya, Touya, Ikuko, and Itouikukuro Reigonamu. Assuming Ikuko=Yasu then every single name that Yasu invented is a number (excluding S&K's "blessed" names). Coincidence?

And of course there's lots of circumstantial evidence. I've gone over this before, but I'll repeat.
  • Ikuko shares a similar interest in mystery novels to Yasu.
  • Ikuko is a writer of mystery novels and so is Beatrice (you might disagree on them being "mystery" but you get my point).
  • Ikuko is reclusive and cryptic about her past.
  • Ikuko naturally likes Touya in particular for some inexplicable reason.
  • Ikuko is extremely quick to adopt Touya into her household, even giving him her surname.
  • Ikuko hides his existence from the hospital, and presumably the rest of the world.

If we add some time between the motorboat and Ikuko's discovery of Touya, which seems more reasonable with Rk07's most recently translated interview, then two major reasons to believe she isn't Yasu are partially mitigated.
  • It's no longer so strange that Ikuko be surprised when she thought Touya said she looked 18 years old.
  • With more time the Yasu==> Ikuko transition becomes a lot more logistically plausible.
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Old 2011-10-24, 17:11   Link #25328
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I try not to rip overly hard the people who just say "I dunno, I liked it overall, I thought it ultimately worked out," even though I disagree with their conclusion. It's this undercurrent that somehow nothing is wrong and that some select group can "get it" that is bothering me.
Please take note though, that I never said that I think Umineko is an exceptionally GOOD mystery or an exceptionally INNOVATIVE one, I merely think that many things which are being criticised as "wrong in a mystery" or "the author messing up" are based on a limited understanding of what Ryűkishi tried to acchieve. This is of course also his own fault and I think many things he said would have better been said around EP2 already in order to "weed out" (as bad as it sounds) the readers who started the series on false expectations.
Ryűkishi's and BT's metaphor of the curry-shop which starts serving mainstream curry because it went into a spiral of success is quite fitting...the sad thing is that Ryűkishi is aware of this and still doesn't act against it.

Umineko tries many cool things and fails at quite a lot of them, but I think that most of the criticism around here is an unfair mix of actual weakpoints and personal preferences. So of course there are many things wrong with Umineko...but I think the problem lies more with Ryűkishi's weak understanding of his own readership than the material in its raw form.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've gotten the feeling Toya started recovering his memories slowly, so in the beginning it could be they were vague and he couldn't be 100% sure he was Battler... though I guess we need someone who can read the scene to check if this is true...
Well, it was implied by Ryűkishi that Tôya was still in a personal crisis over being Battler or not when Ange tried contacting him via Ikuko in 1998 and when he got over that crisis she had already become Kotobuki Yukari. So you could argue that Ange's plea for help at the end of EP4 can also be seen as Ange's real call on Tôya.

And I think the big problem with the question of if he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu is not the question of parentage but the question of legitimacy. He probably remembered a bit of Battler's memory which made him doubt his right and the use of doing what he is doing at all. Tôya didn't want to be Battler, so any excuse would be right for him to cast this problem aside and this was probably when Ange called in order to meet up with him.
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Old 2011-10-24, 17:18   Link #25329
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You know, how can Beatrice, purely as a meta-projection in Touya's mind, not only play Gamemaster but also make difficulty adjustments on the fly as the games go on? It makes more sense if she's an external force reacting and adapting to BATTLER.

Ikuko is Yasu. Meta-discussions are proxy discussions between the shadow of Beatrice remaining in Ikuko and the shadow of Battler remaining in Touya; they are conducted through their respective roles in reading, writing, and cowriting.
You know I'm all for Ikuko=Yasu.
As for Beatrice I think she is something Toya created but that, as everything a person create in his mind, she's influenced by what Toya experiences.
So yes, she can, at some points, reflect Toya and Ikuko's discussions and at some others discharge them completely to reflect ideas that Toya didn't share with Ikuko or that didn't match with Ikuko.
So Ikuko can't control Beato and force her goals on her but can, in some occasions, influence her actions and I think it's possible the more Toya remembers the more Ikuko and Beato become closer in his mind.
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Old 2011-10-24, 17:55   Link #25330
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You know I'm all for Ikuko=Yasu.
As for Beatrice I think she is something Toya created but that, as everything a person create in his mind, she's influenced by what Toya experiences.
So yes, she can, at some points, reflect Toya and Ikuko's discussions and at some others discharge them completely to reflect ideas that Toya didn't share with Ikuko or that didn't match with Ikuko.
So Ikuko can't control Beato and force her goals on her but can, in some occasions, influence her actions and I think it's possible the more Toya remembers the more Ikuko and Beato become closer in his mind.
Well, assuming Ikuko=Yasu I'm still not exactly sure about what that means for the meta-world. There's still the matter of Beatrice dying at the end of episode 5. And she also kind of died at the end of episode 4 and episode 7... so... what exactly do these points represent?

It's not as though we don't have ideas on these issues, but they probably need more refinement.
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Old 2011-10-24, 19:30   Link #25331
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Well, assuming Ikuko=Yasu I'm still not exactly sure about what that means for the meta-world. There's still the matter of Beatrice dying at the end of episode 5. And she also kind of died at the end of episode 4 and episode 7... so... what exactly do these points represent?

It's not as though we don't have ideas on these issues, but they probably need more refinement.
Some of my theories about what Beato's death represent:
- the death of Battler's vision of Beatrice as personification of the culprit. If he understood everything he knows who was the real culprit in the games and if he remembers enough he might also know who was the real culprit in Rokkenjima Prime.
- Yasu's death either real or either due to the fact Battler might not have worked out yet Yasu=Ikuko and believe her dead
- Yasu's metaphorical death as she gave up on her previous identity of Shannon and took a new one (Ikuko).
- Shannon's metaphorical death because she became a person that's different from how she was before, be it 12 year old Shannon or 16 year old Shannon and therefore she 'died'.
- Shannon's innocence's death. She lost fait in Battler and ended up in a situation that pained her and that later caused the Rokkenjima incident.
- the end of a time in Toya's life. When Beato dies Battler is left alone facing the witches, as Toya now likely can't hide anymore but has to face his memories because he has recovered them.
- In Ep 8 Beato's death can also represent hiding the kei to the catbox.

Clair's death is more... placing an end to the unfinished game Yasu started on Rokkenjima Prime. I also like to think it's like killing all the negative feelings inside her as finally someone understood and accepted her. At least when Will kills her.

When Bern does I guess it's the opposite. It's understanding but rejecting, trampling over her feelings and discharging her. Yasu's fear and likely what Battler/Toya wanted to avoid protecting the catbox.

There's more though because, since Beato's death is metaphorical, you can work out lot of explanations appling it to all that Beato could have represented and then pick up the one you like more... as I fear we'll never get a clear answer about it and so chosing an explanation becomes a matter of tastes.
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Old 2011-10-24, 21:01   Link #25332
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We have evidence he doesn't know.

Do you have evidence that he does know?

Otherwise our positions aren't equal, and mine stands above yours. Fuck, Umineko had a whole SCENE about this.
Actually, my question was "how do we know he never blamed her?". But well, I can still address your other points.

Our positions stand equally. Again, my scenario is following the idea Tōya was given additional information in order to have it mixed with Battler's memories and reach a "truth". Meta Battler reached that truth in EP5 and acted according to it.

However, in reality, Hachijō Tōya seemed to have recalled things as they are, and that's why he took those extreme measures. However, in the end, he decided to accept the fantasy given to him as real instead of the actual thing.

As for what he knows about Ikuko. We only followed his (Tōya's) PoV until he started recovering his memories. After that we went back to Ange in the Meta World and we didn't see him again until the ???? Tea Party in which we're mainly following Ange's PoV. So, we really don't know how much he knows about Ikuko, but ultimately that doesn't really matter in my scenario, because he decided to accept the fantasy.

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Keyword here is "if."
Well, of course it is. Umineko's ending wasn't closely-knit. In fact, it's far from it.
So, whether we're constructing scenarios we believe R07 intended, or simply making scenarios to cater our own whims all of them will involve a lot of ifs - some more than others, of course. I have no problem admitting my scenario stretches many things, but again, it's mainly for fun.
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Old 2011-10-24, 23:33   Link #25333
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Actually, my question was "how do we know he never blamed her?".
He went on and on about how he was the sinner and he was the one torturing her and he's sorry and blah blah blah.

Just a few hours ago he fucking hated her for being a psycho murderer of his whole family, but SOMETHING caused him to ENTIRELY REDACT this opinion of her and made him feel like the worse of the two.

Meaning either she's totally innocent, or Battler is condoning mass murderer.
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Old 2011-10-25, 00:12   Link #25334
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He went on and on about how he was the sinner and he was the one torturing her and he's sorry and blah blah blah.

Just a few hours ago he fucking hated her for being a psycho murderer of his whole family, but SOMETHING caused him to ENTIRELY REDACT this opinion of her and made him feel like the worse of the two.

Meaning either she's totally innocent, or Battler is condoning mass murderer.
Yes, but that's Meta Battler. Who, again, in the scenario I've constructed, is following the story written by Tōya, who in turn has received extra information which is now mixed with his memories (and thus, what he's been writing). So, what Meta Battler reached is the "truth" Yasu/Ikuko wants Tōya to reach.

When I asked "how do we know he never blamed her?" I was talking about Tōya, not about Meta Battler, since the former did manage to remember the real thing.
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Old 2011-10-25, 00:39   Link #25335
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I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference. Sorcerer Battler is described as existing "on a higher plane" from every other character who "understands everything." I think we can take as heavily implied that he knows what Toya knows, atleast regarding the 1986 incident. If BATTLER feels this way about Beatrice, why wouldn't Toya?
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Old 2011-10-25, 01:13   Link #25336
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Yes, Meta-Battler understands everything as far as the story he's part of is related. The thing is, the story he's part of is this mixture of memories plus extra info. So, in my scenario, that's what Meta-Battler knows and that's why he reacted the way he did when he reached the truth at the end of EP5.

So, you'd have a marked contrast between Meta Battler's reaction after reaching the truth and Tōya's reaction after remembering what happened in the actual events. Of course, ultimately, Tōya ended up embracing the fantasy (to an extent, of course, since he doesn't view himself as Battler), and thus, he ended up going by the same "truth" Meta Battler reached.

Why is accepting the fantasy so important? The truth as it is leaves Tōya with nothing. Not only does he remember how his whole family died in horrible ways, but now, the woman he lives with and who he quite likely loves is no one but the mastermind behind the death of his family. So, his life as Hachijō Tōya would be ruined as well. This is why, in my scenario, remembering all those things as they were was so devastating to Tōya. If you remember, him receiving him name from Ikuko was very important, since it gave him a sense of identity when he had none. In a way, you could say that much of what made Tōya himself revolved around Ikuko. She's extremely important to him. So, the actual truth is a huge blow in so many levels. That's why after he survived his attempt at suicide, he decided to go by the fantasy Yasu/Ikuko gave him. It made it easier to bear with Battler's memories and allowed him to remain as Hachijō Tōya.
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Old 2011-10-25, 01:45   Link #25337
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...

Yea, I'm not buying it. It still leaves us with Battler/Toya exonerating a mass murderer. If this is what we're supposed to think than Ryukishi is even stupider and out of touch with reality than he seems to be.
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Old 2011-10-25, 03:44   Link #25338
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It sounds horrible, and I'm really not trying to either excuse or criticise the behaviours of neither the perpetrator or the survivor, but well, I guess this really depends on what you need.

For example, let us suppose Tōya decided to go back to be Battler, or, at least, to seek to bring the perpetrator to justice. What does that earn him? He'd get some justice, but... what can he do with that? He's a middle-aged man in a wheel-chair who has nothing in his life but Ikuko. Throwing her away implies to basically destroy his life as Tōya. Furthermore, it also means taking back all the crap that comes with being Ushiromiya Battler, like his horrible memories along with a lot of undesired attention. Moreover, even if we count Ange, taking Ikuko to justice would mean that all the other secrets will have to come afloat as well, especially the involvement of his parents in the whole deal (as it is in my scenario, and it's quite likely implied in R07's as well). So, he'd be shitting on what Ange was trying to protect. So, ultimately, he'd not only destroying his life as Tōya, but having to deal with Battler's shitty life as well, and ultimately he'd destroy Ange's life too.

Not to mention that previous explanation would go from a Battlery PoV. Tōya quite likely loves Ikuko and he probably doesn't want to see her in a bad light. So, even if we were to say he wouldn't have had to bring her to justice, but just leave her, Tōya quite likely didn't want to do that. It may have been very selfish, but he probably didn't want to trade the person who basically meant everything in his life, for the sake of a person that's basically a stranger to him.

So, by accepting the fantasy, he appeased Battler, he managed to keep his life as Tōya and he didn't ruin Ange's/Yukari's life either. Everyone lived a happy lie.
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Old 2011-10-25, 09:19   Link #25339
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That's just utterly horrible, though. And it doesn't explain, as AT said, why he considers himself to have wronged Beatrice. It's a very different thing to say "You're a terrible witch but I accept the fantasy" - which is basically what ep1-4 Beatrice seemed to be asking him to do - than to say "Wow, I really had this all wrong, sorry."

What if Touya initially feared she was Yasu (and thus the killer), then realized his (partial) mistake? Then both Battler and Touya would have a reason to feel guilty. Particularly if this revelation in some way coincides with events that would give him a reason to feel guilty for his actions.

That said, realizing Beatrice's innocence in R-Prime would, by necessity, mean realizing someone else's guilt (assuming it wasn't just an accident, but really?). So he still is condoning somebody's murder, but he may be doing it for a slightly less insane reason. If he believed the person to be dead, or somehow believed public revelation of the culprit would do more harm than good (if it was a series of unfortunate mistakes and paranoid self-defense killings, for example, that would've implicated Eva when she wasn't really guilty), that might be understandable (if, in my mind, not acceptable).
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Old 2011-10-25, 16:39   Link #25340
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's just utterly horrible, though. And it doesn't explain, as AT said, why he considers himself to have wronged Beatrice. It's a very different thing to say "You're a terrible witch but I accept the fantasy" - which is basically what ep1-4 Beatrice seemed to be asking him to do - than to say "Wow, I really had this all wrong, sorry."
It does explain why.... I've explained it like... 3 times already.
In this scenario, the story Meta Battler is following is what Tōya is writing. What Tōya is writing is based on his memories, plus extra-information that Yasu/Ikuko gave him. While he is writing, Tōya is taking that extra information as real. So, what's in the story is a "reality" made by Yasu by reshaping some of Tōya's memories by feeding him some fake information.

So, in that story, we get all the things we saw in EP1-7. The mysteries, the revelations... everything is based off this mixture of real memories and fake memories. This is why Meta Battler had the reaction he had in EP5, because in that story, he had wronged Beatrice who had done no wrong.

Also, remember about that essential aspect we were told in EP8 a Witch has. A Witch is basically a person who sticks to her own truth no matter what. That's why Ange was able to revive Battler in the Library after Bern killed him. That's why Battler told Erika she wasn't a Witch, but a Detective.

Then, compare both Tōya and Ange when they faced the truth. Both of them tried to kill themselves. Now, what was what made Ange able to keep on going? The fantasy. When she decided to embrace the fantasy given to her, she was able to keep on going. She discarded the hard truth and decided to stick to the "truth" she wanted. In my scenario, Tōya is doing the exact same thing.
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