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Old 2011-10-25, 18:25   Link #25341
AuraTwilight
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t does explain why.... I've explained it like... 3 times already.
In this scenario, the story Meta Battler is following is what Tōya is writing. What Tōya is writing is based on his memories, plus extra-information that Yasu/Ikuko gave him. While he is writing, Tōya is taking that extra information as real. So, what's in the story is a "reality" made by Yasu by reshaping some of Tōya's memories by feeding him some fake information.
That's not answering the question.

How does this lead to Battler/Toya CONSIDERING HIMSELF TO HAVE WRONGED BEATRICE?

You're not answering this. You're dodging the question.

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So, in that story, we get all the things we saw in EP1-7. The mysteries, the revelations... everything is based off this mixture of real memories and fake memories. This is why Meta Battler had the reaction he had in EP5, because in that story, he had wronged Beatrice who had done no wrong.
That's....stupid. Your conclusion is that this whole "Battler reaches the truth epiphany" is just Battler being mistaken and apologizing to the EP5 Beatrice construct, instead of the actual Yasu?

That's really stupid. I'm sorry, there's no nice way to put it because it is so completely invalidates the entirety of Chiru.

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Also, remember about that essential aspect we were told in EP8 a Witch has. A Witch is basically a person who sticks to her own truth no matter what. That's why Ange was able to revive Battler in the Library after Bern killed him. That's why Battler told Erika she wasn't a Witch, but a Detective.
Ehhhh, you're kinda stretching, here.

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Then, compare both Tōya and Ange when they faced the truth. Both of them tried to kill themselves. Now, what was what made Ange able to keep on going? The fantasy. When she decided to embrace the fantasy given to her, she was able to keep on going. She discarded the hard truth and decided to stick to the "truth" she wanted. In my scenario, Tōya is doing the exact same thing.
Incorrect. Ange was going to kill herself because she DIDN'T know the truth. It's learning the Truth that lets her cope with living, regardless of the ending you go with. Whatever the Truth was, it wasn't as bad as she was expecting.
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Old 2011-10-25, 19:22   Link #25342
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not answering the question.

How does this lead to Battler/Toya CONSIDERING HIMSELF TO HAVE WRONGED BEATRICE?

You're not answering this. You're dodging the question..
I'm not dodging the question. I've tried to answer it several times already...
I've made it clear, and even explicitly posted before that in this scenario Meta Battler ≠ Hachijō Tōya. In my scenario, Meta Battler is a representation of many things I've already mentioned before. Meta Battler is also an allegory of a Battler/Tōya that takes this "reality" as true. In fact, for Meta Battler this reality is all there is, since he's part of that story.

Hachijōya Tōya, on the other hand, never had Meta Battler's reaction. He never considered himself to have wronged Beatrice, at least not until he decided to take Yasu/Ikuko's fantasy as real.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's....stupid. Your conclusion is that this whole "Battler reaches the truth epiphany" is just Battler being mistaken and apologizing to the EP5 Beatrice construct, instead of the actual Yasu?

That's really stupid. I'm sorry, there's no nice way to put it because it is so completely invalidates the entirety of Chiru.
Meta Battler is not mistaken. He's part of the story being written, for him that's his reality. For Meta Battler, Beatrice being innocent is real.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ehhhh, you're kinda stretching, here.
Actually, this is the only part in which I'm not stretching things. Go check the part in which Erika asks Battler why Ange could become a witch and she couldn't, and Battler tells her pretty much what I posted.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Incorrect. Ange was going to kill herself because she DIDN'T know the truth. It's learning the Truth that lets her cope with living, regardless of the ending you go with. Whatever the Truth was, it wasn't as bad as she was expecting.
Ange was going to kill herself after checking the diary. After that, she ended up in the Golden Land where she met all her family and Battler tells her this was precisely why he set up that game in EP8, because there were things she needed more than the truth. It's the same when Battler was about to be killed by Bern and he tells Ange to recall the truth she had in her heart when she was 6.

The truth that mattered to Ange was the truth she wanted to believe in, not the actual one. That's precisely why it didn't matter in the slightest when Bern started using red for Battler's death and a bunch of other stuff, because Ange couldn't care less about that any more.

This is the big idea behind magic. This is what we saw with Maria in EP4, Natsuhi in EP5 and there are a bunch of other examples in which people replace the hard reality with the one they want to believe in.
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:09   Link #25343
AuraTwilight
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I'm not dodging the question. I've tried to answer it several times already...
I've made it clear, and even explicitly posted before that in this scenario Meta Battler ≠ Hachijō Tōya. In my scenario, Meta Battler is a representation of many things I've already mentioned before. Meta Battler is also an allegory of a Battler/Tōya that takes this "reality" as true. In fact, for Meta Battler this reality is all there is, since he's part of that story.

Hachijōya Tōya, on the other hand, never had Meta Battler's reaction. He never considered himself to have wronged Beatrice, at least not until he decided to take Yasu/Ikuko's fantasy as real.
But BATTLER exists "on a higher plane" from the other characters. And even if this is an allegory, what does his revelation mean?

'Beatrice' is deliberately attempting to take blame for the whole tragedy, so what aspect of accepting her fantasy ends with any iteration of Battler absolving an exonerating her as a victim?

Your answers aren't satisfactory and, at times, contradictory.

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Actually, this is the only part in which I'm not stretching things. Go check the part in which Erika asks Battler why Ange could become a witch and she couldn't, and Battler tells her pretty much what I posted.
I mean in the act of connecting it to the rest of your idea. It just seems superfluous, not really adding anything.

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Ange was going to kill herself after checking the diary. After that, she ended up in the Golden Land where she met all her family and Battler tells her this was precisely why he set up that game in EP8, because there were things she needed more than the truth. It's the same when Battler was about to be killed by Bern and he tells Ange to recall the truth she had in her heart when she was 6.
She was going to kill herself because she didn't know the truth. And, obviously, since there was some sort of tragedy anyway, it's still horrible. The Fantasy/Truth/Whatever she invokes in her heart is a sort of "everyone is alive in my memory" type thing, instead of painting over the facts. It seems more of an allegory of coping instead of denying and replacing the truth with something else.

Which is entirely different from Battler exonerating a fucking serial killer.

Quote:
This is the big idea behind magic. This is what we saw with Maria in EP4, Natsuhi in EP5 and there are a bunch of other examples in which people replace the hard reality with the one they want to believe in.
And, again, Battler was not going to forgive Beatrice for her actions no matter how it was dressed up. He wanted the make the killer pay for what they've done. What exactly happened that made him change his mind? Something happened that caused him to change his opinion of Beatrice entirely, and gave him the impression that his opinion of her was totally wrong. This is the same BATTLER, mind you, who understands everything, and knows the truth in full.

An answer that he just accepted a lie isn't going to cut it; it's not consistent with the text. He learned something TRUE that exonerated her.
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Old 2011-10-25, 20:58   Link #25344
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But BATTLER exists "on a higher plane" from the other characters. And even if this is an allegory, what does his revelation mean?

'Beatrice' is deliberately attempting to take blame for the whole tragedy, so what aspect of accepting her fantasy ends with any iteration of Battler absolving an exonerating her as a victim?

Your answers aren't satisfactory and, at times, contradictory.
I don't know why you keep bringing up BATTLER being on a higher plane. He's on the same plane as any other Game Master. We've discussed this before. I showed you evidence about it and proved you wrong back then. He couldn't even go to the Capital of Books until Lambda made him able to go.

Anyhow, as Game Master, BATTLER's knowledge covers everything the story involves. And thus, even if the story is a mixture of some recollection of the actual events plus fake information, for BATTLER that information is true. That's part of his world. That's his reality and those are the truths he reached.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I mean in the act of connecting it to the rest of your idea. It just seems superfluous, not really adding anything.
Because that's an important thematic that has been there since EP1 and which is reflected in my scenario as well.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She was going to kill herself because she didn't know the truth. And, obviously, since there was some sort of tragedy anyway, it's still horrible. The Fantasy/Truth/Whatever she invokes in her heart is a sort of "everyone is alive in my memory" type thing, instead of painting over the facts. It seems more of an allegory of coping instead of denying and replacing the truth with something else.
Please.... go back and re-read the scene in the Capital of Books when Ange uses the key to open Eva's Diary (aka. The Book with the One Truth). Ange says the truth was there. The problem was she didn't want to acknowledge it. That's why she said the whole thing about the world being wrong and then her attempt at "painting" her truth with the red of her blood.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Which is entirely different from Battler exonerating a fucking serial killer.
Battler never did such thing. For the Battler in the story, Beatrice is innocent. In the story that is the only truth. In the real world, Battler is dead and only a man named Hachijō Tōya remains.

When I talk about accepting the fantasy, I'm talking about Tōya. For Meta Battler this fantasy is his reality.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And, again, Battler was not going to forgive Beatrice for her actions no matter how it was dressed up. He wanted the make the killer pay for what they've done. What exactly happened that made him change his mind? Something happened that caused him to change his opinion of Beatrice entirely, and gave him the impression that his opinion of her was totally wrong. This is the same BATTLER, mind you, who understands everything, and knows the truth in full.

An answer that he just accepted a lie isn't going to cut it; it's not consistent with the text. He learned something TRUE that exonerated her.
Again, for the nth time. The truth Meta Battler reached is the only truth for him, since that's the truth of the story he's part of. There are no other truths for him. Meta Battler is not accepting any fantasy. The one accepting the fantasy, later on, was Tōya and I've already written why it was so important for him to accept that fantasy.
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Old 2011-10-26, 01:01   Link #25345
AuraTwilight
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I don't know why you keep bringing up BATTLER being on a higher plane. He's on the same plane as any other Game Master. We've discussed this before. I showed you evidence about it and proved you wrong back then. He couldn't even go to the Capital of Books until Lambda made him able to go.
His TIPS explicitly puts him apart from the original Beatrice in this regard.

And your example is kind of fallacious, as Lambdadelta and that whole crew are "Voyagers" who allegedly exist beyond the bounds of his stories (The territory). Of course he needs help going to the Library, it's not part of Meta-Rokkenjima.

Quote:
Anyhow, as Game Master, BATTLER's knowledge covers everything the story involves. And thus, even if the story is a mixture of some recollection of the actual events plus fake information, for BATTLER that information is true. That's part of his world. That's his reality and those are the truths he reached.
It's still a blatant copout. What you're basically saying is "Even if X is stated to be true by everyone in the series, it can still be false without evidence."

Quote:
Because that's an important thematic that has been there since EP1 and which is reflected in my scenario as well.
Since EP1? That's arguable.

Hell, I'd say it's only present since EP2 at earliest since it's only then that Lambdadelta (the embodiment of never giving up on your efforts) enters the story properly.

Quote:
Please.... go back and re-read the scene in the Capital of Books when Ange uses the key to open Eva's Diary (aka. The Book with the One Truth). Ange says the truth was there. The problem was she didn't want to acknowledge it. That's why she said the whole thing about the world being wrong and then her attempt at "painting" her truth with the red of her blood.
And she was convinced otherwise. WTF is the problem?

Quote:
Battler never did such thing. For the Battler in the story, Beatrice is innocent. In the story that is the only truth. In the real world, Battler is dead and only a man named Hachijō Tōya remains.

When I talk about accepting the fantasy, I'm talking about Tōya. For Meta Battler this fantasy is his reality.
Look, man, she's either innocent or she's not. She can't be 'fake-innocent', especially when we're dealing with a story-transcending metafictional entity taking about the truth he's learned and the 'real Beato's heart' he finally understood and all that shit.

Either she's a serial killer and he's justifying it, or she's a tragic victim of circumstances and he's blaming himself for something out of both their hands. There's no inbetween. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Quote:
Again, for the nth time. The truth Meta Battler reached is the only truth for him, since that's the truth of the story he's part of. There are no other truths for him. Meta Battler is not accepting any fantasy. The one accepting the fantasy, later on, was Tōya and I've already written why it was so important for him to accept that fantasy.
Now you're speaking nonsense. If it's not true, it's a fantasy. Meta-Battler is either accepting the One Truth, or he is accepting a fantasy. It doesn't matter what layer he's on, they're ordered in tiers.
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Old 2011-10-26, 02:42   Link #25346
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
His TIPS explicitly puts him apart from the original Beatrice in this regard.

And your example is kind of fallacious, as Lambdadelta and that whole crew are "Voyagers" who allegedly exist beyond the bounds of his stories (The territory). Of course he needs help going to the Library, it's not part of Meta-Rokkenjima.
That's exactly my point. Meta Battler cannot access places or information outside of his territory. Now, what is his territory made of? Stories. These stories were written by Yasu (EPs 1-2) and Tōya (EPs 3-7/8).

We were always following these stories. Not even once did we ever go through a story in which we saw the actual events of Rokkenjima Prime. So, what if the stories we've been following don't follow the exact events in Rokkenjima? Then BATTLER'S Territory won't follow it either. The truth BATTLER reached is also the truth found in those stories.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's still a blatant copout. What you're basically saying is "Even if X is stated to be true by everyone in the series, it can still be false without evidence."
And why can it not be false? Notice that we're always changing our perspective on the truth depending on new information we find. Say, before EP7 we had little to no idea about Yasu, or that she may have a penis. We had little to no idea that the whole thing may have been a mess in which characters just started killing each other out of mere opportunism. Before EP8 we had no evidence Battler had escaped the island, we had no idea about Battler/Tōya and anything about his life like his relationship with Ikuko. We also had no idea of the extreme reaction he had when he remembered what happened in Rokkenjima. Before R07's latest translated interview, we had no idea Battler had apparently spent a good amount of time at sea - notice this piece of info alone made it more likely that Ikuko may be Yasu. So, I can take things like these as basis to establish new possible interpretations.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And she was convinced otherwise. WTF is the problem?
That's my point again. Ange rejected the actual truth and decided to follow whatever she wanted.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Look, man, she's either innocent or she's not. She can't be 'fake-innocent', especially when we're dealing with a story-transcending metafictional entity taking about the truth he's learned and the 'real Beato's heart' he finally understood and all that shit.

Either she's a serial killer and he's justifying it, or she's a tragic victim of circumstances and he's blaming himself for something out of both their hands. There's no inbetween. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
There's never been any in-between. She's a serial-killer in the real world and she's innocent in the stories. It's not really hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Now you're speaking nonsense. If it's not true, it's a fantasy. Meta-Battler is either accepting the One Truth, or he is accepting a fantasy. It doesn't matter what layer he's on, they're ordered in tiers.
If you're part of the fantasy, then whatever happens in the fantasy is your reality, and thus it is true. That's my point, the truth in Meta Battler's Territory would be "fantasy" if compared to the real events in Rokkenjima. However, the actual events of Rokkenjima are not part of The Territory, because the Territory was made of stories which contain a lot of false information.
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Old 2011-10-26, 03:19   Link #25347
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That's exactly my point. Meta Battler cannot access places or information outside of his territory. Now, what is his territory made of? Stories. These stories were written by Yasu (EPs 1-2) and Tōya (EPs 3-7/8).

We were always following these stories. Not even once did we ever go through a story in which we saw the actual events of Rokkenjima Prime. So, what if the stories we've been following don't follow the exact events in Rokkenjima? Then BATTLER'S Territory won't follow it either. The truth BATTLER reached is also the truth found in those stories.
And yet, he has the Truth. He HAS to, because he literally has the truth in his hand and keeps it away from Ange in EP8. He KNOWS what the Truth is, and is capable of giving or denying it to people.

Quote:
That's my point again. Ange rejected the actual truth and decided to follow whatever she wanted.
And I'm saying she didn't actually alter the truth, but coped with it differently. There's a difference between "X wasn't a murderer" and "X is alive in my heart."

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There's never been any in-between. She's a serial-killer in the real world and she's innocent in the stories. It's not really hard to understand.
If anything it's the other way around, given that only Shannon/Kanon really can account for the vast majority of the murders in the Games, and she is pretty obviously the Culprit of the Games by Will's judgment.

If you're going to say she was a killer in reality, then she's a killer across the board.

Quote:
If you're part of the fantasy, then whatever happens in the fantasy is your reality, and thus it is true. That's my point, the truth in Meta Battler's Territory would be "fantasy" if compared to the real events in Rokkenjima. However, the actual events of Rokkenjima are not part of The Territory, because the Territory was made of stories which contain a lot of false information.
See above. This simply isn't the case; BATTLER has awareness of Rokkenjima Prime in one form or another.
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Old 2011-10-26, 06:01   Link #25348
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Yeah, the theory is needlessly complex and I doubt RK07 put that much though into it. Yasu was the culprit in the games, BATTLER figured that much out. If he came to the conclusion that she's actually innocent he needs to have information thats not in the plane of the stories. Now, you've stated that this is because Tya tried to appease him/himself by saying that she's actually innocent in real life, thats fine. The problem is Ange and the truth she found out. Do you think Ange would go around idolizing Beatrice and brainwashing everyone in her hospice into it as well if she knew she was the killer?

According to your theory, Tya has a reason to influence Battler into believing this lie. But Ange doesn't, and she still acts this way in the end. The simpler solution that fits both cases is that Beatrice never was the culprit and she's hiding the truth via her stories. Battler feels he wronged her and apologizes to her, Ange finds out MSs true strength and decides to be a disciple of it.
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:09   Link #25349
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Alright, I just read all the pages since my last post. Honestly, I'm not going to bother entering some big long string of quotes with you, AuraTwilight. I see what you are saying and I disagree with it. I also think that you have a bad habit of presenting your arguments by attempting to discredit the other person rather than try and prove your point. Calling into question my understanding of mystery novels? Really? How is that even relevant? The responses you have gotten from other people said all I would say anyway, so I see no reason to just echo them.

Honestly, you come off really bitter about how Umineko ended up. If you dislike it that much, then that is a shame, but I don't see why you feel the need to try and discredit the people who love it just as much as they always have. I, personally, am more than satisfied with where Umineko ended up, as well as the entire Yasu situation and the usage of Red Truth regarding Shannon and Kanon. I think it's clever and tricky and honestly, I think it makes the entire series BETTER than it was originally. I think Episode 7 was beautiful and it made me respect and love the Episodes that came before it even more than I already did. I'm not nearly as bitter about this series as you are. So, different strokes for different folks or whatever.

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That quote was clearly used to deceive Luke to SHIELD HIM FROM THE TRUTH. Luke does get pissed and asks for correction when he finds out.
Right, and I was talking about the response he gets when he asks for clarification.

"Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I had told you was true, from a certain point of view."
"A certain point of view?"
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

And Star Wars is far from the only work of fiction to play with this idea, as I said. The concept of using analogies and metaphors to describe something is not a concept unique to Umineko. Even the specific example of having "Person X died" as a metaphor for "Person X is no longer Person X, therefor Person X as we know them no longer exists" is not anywhere near unique to Umineko.

And that's not even getting into the major issue here of Shannon and Kanon not being real physical people anyway, so they can't even have a physical corpse. They also aren't directly Yasu either, as I said before, I have never seen this as a case of multiple personalities or anything. So from a point of view of Shannon/Kanon existing, which is what we have been in the Game Boards in question, them no longer existing in Yasu's heart is equivalent of them dying. Beatrice did NOT lie with the Red Truth. You just didn't understand what she meant, and she then spent a good deal of time hinting and explaining it. As I said with AuraTwilight, it's a shame if people really hate that things weren't exactly what they were led to believe they were at first. But I don't really get why some people are so upset. If you really expected everything we were led to believe in Episode 2 was exactly as it seemed then you guys must not have read Higurashi. lol
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:28   Link #25350
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I think you're forgetting the part where Luke was right and Anakin Skywalker was still alive and there was still good in him and he, you know, redeemed himself. I mean okay Obi-Wan was like "he's metaphorically dead lol" but Luke said "bullshit he is" and wound up being right, so which way are we supposed to take it?

If there's differing opinions within the setting, it seems somewhat unfair not to make that obvious. Intentional awareness that your perspective is not the common one is an attempt to mislead. When Obi-Wan intentionally metaphorically said Darth Vader murdered Luke's father, he knew Luke would take that to mean that they were different people. Kenobi had a motive behind doing this, but it doesn't matter, he intentionally misled Luke. That's just a fact of the story. You cannot dispute it. It was done, but Obi-Wan had what he believed to be good reasons to have done it.

Beatrice lied and misled. Sorry. Or at least, she did per later information, even if she didn't have to be a liar at the at the time (and I didn't think, at the time, that she was, because I trusted her characer, but oh well). It doesn't mean you have to agree with us about liking or disliking anything, but she was retconned into a liar. That, too, is a fact of the story. You're welcome to justify it and accept that Beatrice lied as part of her motive to get Battler to understand things. That's your prerogative. But disputing that it happened is futile.
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Old 2011-10-26, 14:37   Link #25351
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I dont think you quite understand where we are going at. Its not an issue of things not being what we expected. Its an issue of things being exactly what we expected! Which, for us at least, was not executed well.

Hell, I remember bringing up the conversation about Battler being alive and how RK07 would justify it by having Battler get amnesia. Some of the people in here (Renall if I remember right) came up with a better solution to Battler still being alive. Then EP8 came out and RK07 picked the more cliched option.
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Old 2011-10-26, 16:19   Link #25352
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I think you're forgetting the part where Luke was right and Anakin Skywalker was still alive and there was still good in him and he, you know, redeemed himself. I mean okay Obi-Wan was like "he's metaphorically dead lol" but Luke said "bullshit he is" and wound up being right, so which way are we supposed to take it?
That's missing the point, though. The point was that from a personal point of view, Anakin was dead. Luke didn't see it that way, but that's besides the point. And, really, I doubt that Darth Vader was suddenly "whoa, saving your life made me realize how wrong I have been". I mean, I know that the movie itself plays it off like he is redeemed, but this is a guy who had killed countless people for his own personal goal and just because he saved his son's life from a dude he wanted to kill ANYWAY and accepted his death we are supposed to believe that he's suddenly as good and pure as Obi-Wan? But, whatever. It's still besides the point and I'm just going off-topic now.

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If there's differing opinions within the setting, it seems somewhat unfair not to make that obvious. Intentional awareness that your perspective is not the common one is an attempt to mislead. When Obi-Wan intentionally metaphorically said Darth Vader murdered Luke's father, he knew Luke would take that to mean that they were different people. Kenobi had a motive behind doing this, but it doesn't matter, he intentionally misled Luke. That's just a fact of the story. You cannot dispute it. It was done, but Obi-Wan had what he believed to be good reasons to have done it.
Yes, Obi-Wan intentionally misled Luka, but he never lied. To him, Anakin was dead. The person he knew was dead. He knew Luke would take what he said to mean a physical death, which was misleading, but it wasn't lying. Same with Beatrice. She misled with the Red Truth, which we knew she was doing from way early on, but she never lied.

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Beatrice lied and misled. Sorry. Or at least, she did per later information, even if she didn't have to be a liar at the at the time (and I didn't think, at the time, that she was, because I trusted her characer, but oh well). It doesn't mean you have to agree with us about liking or disliking anything, but she was retconned into a liar. That, too, is a fact of the story. You're welcome to justify it and accept that Beatrice lied as part of her motive to get Battler to understand things. That's your prerogative. But disputing that it happened is futile.
Again, "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I dont think you quite understand where we are going at. Its not an issue of things not being what we expected. Its an issue of things being exactly what we expected! Which, for us at least, was not executed well.

Hell, I remember bringing up the conversation about Battler being alive and how RK07 would justify it by having Battler get amnesia. Some of the people in here (Renall if I remember right) came up with a better solution to Battler still being alive. Then EP8 came out and RK07 picked the more cliched option.
That's not what people are arguing, no. I'm arguing against the notion that they completely changed and lied about what the Red Truth can do.
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Old 2011-10-26, 18:10   Link #25353
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Quote:
Yes, Obi-Wan intentionally misled Luka, but he never lied.
Yes he did. The person named Anakin Skywalker was factually living and breathing. The person Obi-Wan knew may have changed drastically, but it's not like he had fucking amnesia or split personalities. Obi-Wan made a statement he knew was NOT FACTUALLY TRUE. He is a liar.

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Again, "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
This is basically a copout to justify lying. Things are either true or not true. There is no such thing as "Semi-true."
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Old 2011-10-26, 23:01   Link #25354
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Moreover, nothing Beatrice said was "semi-true" even if, under her perspective, Shannon and Kanon can "die" without any sort of physical demise. Because, again, she is aware of the conclusion Battler will draw when she uses "dead" to refer as much to Kumasawa being a corpse as Kanon taking a mental nap for five minutes. She's implicitly equivocating two things she knows are different and that she knows Battler won't know are different.

Even if we assume Battler actually knew everything, how would he know that? Think about that for a second.
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Old 2011-10-26, 23:40   Link #25355
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Basically, the reason it's lying is because of intent, and anyone trying to argue around that doesn't understand the concept of lying. She is deliberately making him draw the incorrect conclusion. This isn't comparable to when she presents these obviously false witches and magic scenarios with the intention of goading him into solving them, she is deliberately feeding him false information knowing he's accept it. He's too busy trying to dispel this supernatural bullshit to be scrutinizing "human" details like this.

Especially when his defining fucking characteristic is that he refuses to stop trusting people he knows personally. Jesus fuck, she's stacking every possible card against him and getting pissed that he can't beat a royal flush.
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Old 2011-10-27, 00:48   Link #25356
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Again, can we not all just agree on Battler's incompetence running into Beato straddling the line of cheating?

What gets me a bit, is that Battler entertained the thought of personality death, theorizing that Jessica's body, but not necessarily Jessica, had killed Nanjo in EP3. And then, never again. It's mostly that not only was it brought up, but Beato clearly was compelled to respond with No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo

I imagine at that moment she got herself absurdly excited, thinking the whole thing was about to end, right there.
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Old 2011-10-27, 06:45   Link #25357
battle22
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um guy's i have anathor question lol ...
how was Ange able to revive sakutaro for Maria if "This is my Golden Land
A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist
"?
i know this scene is a meta but.. red is the truth so...
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Old 2011-10-27, 07:02   Link #25358
Cao Ni Ma
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She brought Sakutarou from a place outside that golden land then claimed it as "Magic". EP4 Ange already understood the principal elements of MS, she still hated Beatrice's guts though.
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Old 2011-10-27, 07:04   Link #25359
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but the sakutarou that she brought was not the one maria knew right?
meaby she made a new sakutaro and told maria it was the old one? but should'nt beatrice be able to do the same and lie to maria?
this meta bullsh**. lol RYUUUU stop trolling mee!!! lol
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Old 2011-10-27, 07:09   Link #25360
Cao Ni Ma
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She found them inside old man Kuwabata's futon shop, she didn't make em at all. How they got there is a mystery and I dont think it matters much in the end game.

As for why Beatrice didn't make one herself...she's probably not good a sewing thins?
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