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Old 2011-11-11, 12:33   Link #25581
battle22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Here is the problem I see with Kanon and Shannon having separate bodies in End.

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.




Episode 5 was a plot by nearly everyone on the island to fake a murder and frame Natsuhi for it. So...
  • There was no knock; it was a lie, just like the chapel being locked in episode 2.
  • Since everyone in the parlor at the time of the call was in on the plot, ShKanon could have made the call from the parlor even with everyone there.
yeah but why. why would they become like that? if yasu want's revenge why on natsuhi? yes she didn't care about her but it's not like she killed her. hmm ep5 is confusing.
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Old 2011-11-11, 13:10   Link #25582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
yeah but why. why would they become like that? if yasu want's revenge why on natsuhi? yes she didn't care about her but it's not like she killed her. hmm ep5 is confusing.
There is a difference between Yasu would never act out revenge on the family and Yasu does not feel any feeling of vengefulness against the family. Both are possible ways to read her character of course, but I think if you consider both Shannon (loving everybody) and Kanon (hates almost everybody) as two extremes of Yasus emotions it's possible to assume that buried very deep down she would have liked the thought of revenge.
Like Bern summoned Lion from the depth of improbability, the man from 19 years ago could also very well be an unlikely result of Yasu's development. It didn't turn out that way, but it's not like it couldn't have turned out that way.

And the adults? Why wouldn't they act like that? Eva, Rudolph (under the guidance of Kyrie) and Rosa pretty much formed a union against Krauss and Natsuhi to expose their lies and grab the inheritance. They are in deep financial trouble...many people would grow pretty cold over such a situation.

I think a huge problem is that we shouldn't try seeing people just completely with or without love...the truth lies somewhere in between. Like Rosa was probably neither a saint nor a monster, it's probable that all the characters were truly somehwere between their best and their worst depiction.
It's been said in Umineko before, there's not only the things you can't see without love, there's also the things that become invisible through love.
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Old 2011-11-11, 16:15   Link #25583
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You also have to consider the context of whose motive was or was not this or that. Beatrice's motive was not revenge or fear, but who exactly is Beatrice in the context of that discussion? If she represents a culprit that doesn't exist in End, or that doesn't exist at all, then any statement about why she didn't do something is possible to state in red because she didn't do anything.

The End culprit, if there was one separate from the Natsuhi pressure fakery (and evidence at least strongly suggests there was), could have as his/her motive what Beatrice did not, even if Beatrice normally was the culprit.
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Old 2011-11-11, 17:19   Link #25584
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Here is the problem I see with Kanon and Shannon having separate bodies in End.

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

Except this doesn't hurt my theory, at all. Whether or not Kanon has a body is irrelevant to whether or not he is a person. Furthermore, up until Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom., in the next Episode, Kanon having his own body was ALWAYS a perfectly legitimate option.

As stated, it's treated as the sort of move Beato could have used, but didn't, because love or whateverÖ, similar to Evatrice's "mind control" gambit. As AT stated, I would have to offer why this choice was made. On the Meta level, it's cause Lambda just GM'd differently from Beato. On the R-Prime level, I still say, if Tohya is the author, thought experiment, similar to "well, maybe I just stayed in the Guesthouse and got a bunch of phone calls." It might align thematically somehow with the fact that BATTLER only understood Beatrice at the end of this game.
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Old 2011-11-11, 18:13   Link #25585
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Quote:
Whether or not Kanon has a body is irrelevant to whether or not he is a person.
Then why doesn't Beatrice bump the numbers?

Oh, right, arbitrary bullshit. We run into another problem that ruins everything.
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Old 2011-11-11, 18:17   Link #25586
Kealym
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What do you mean, "bump the numbers"?
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Old 2011-11-11, 18:24   Link #25587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Then why doesn't Beatrice bump the numbers?

Oh, right, arbitrary bullshit. We run into another problem that ruins everything.
Well it's ot so arbitrary I think. The thing that was counted in the sentences concerning the number of people were humans, 人間. Witches for example, but furniture as well, does not count as human beings, therefore of course the count of humans on Rokkenjima is normally 16...17 if they included Erika. You could say that there are 17 human bodies on Rokkenjima as well...
  1. Krauss
  2. Natsuhi
  3. Jessica
  4. Eva
  5. Hideyoshi
  6. George
  7. Rudolph
  8. Kyrie
  9. Battler
  10. Rosa
  11. Maria
  12. Genji
  13. Kumasawa
  14. Gohda
  15. Nanj˘
  16. Yasu-Shannon
  17. Kanon/Kinz˘/Erika
Were they really talking about characters at all then the witches side would hurt their own point. There can be as many characters on Rokkenjima as the author likes, but the truth is that there is only a fixed number of humans.
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Old 2011-11-11, 21:30   Link #25588
AuraTwilight
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But that's ruined by Kanon receiving his own body in EP5. You can't have it both ways without making it arbitrary.
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Old 2011-11-12, 04:36   Link #25589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But that's ruined by Kanon receiving his own body in EP5. You can't have it both ways without making it arbitrary.
What I meant is that Beatrice in EP2 had a body, too, which was observed by Kyrie and Battler. In EP4 basically all magical characters appeared to have bodies which were observed by almost everybody despite Maria and Battler.
It is basically possible to make non-human characters appear in front of other characters, as long as they don't question their presence.
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Old 2011-11-12, 14:15   Link #25590
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
What I meant is that Beatrice in EP2 had a body, too, which was observed by Kyrie and Battler.
There is no 19th person.

Oops. Arbitrary bullshit.
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Old 2011-11-12, 16:32   Link #25591
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My theory to explain for Erika not noticing Shannon/Kanon in EP5 is that she is too meta.

Erika never acts like a real person that is actually in her situation. She is always aware of the whole story being a game.
So she doesn't go "Everyone on the Island should be here in this room. Who do I see?",
but "It was said that eveyone on the Island is in the room, so everyone is there."
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Old 2011-11-12, 17:20   Link #25592
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^
I don't think that works, either - a huge point is made about how her powers of physical observation (photographic memory, perfect hearing, etc.) are absurdly reliable. She proves Natsuhi's lack of an alibi physically in End, as well, with bullshit-y-CSI-chemicals from Kinzo's study. She knows she's in a fictional setting, but is clearly experiencing that setting firsthand. I mean, c'mon - chopsticks.

Also, AT, I still don't know exactly what you mean by -bump the bodies-? You mean why didn't Beatrice increase the body count? I totally agree with you - it IS arbitrary, but Shkanon depends on arbitrary subjective stuff, anyways, so I hardly see where giving Kanon a body, just in End, ruins anything, especially since we're told repeatedly that something was just sorta wrong with End, as a game.
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Old 2011-11-12, 19:02   Link #25593
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Quote:
Also, AT, I still don't know exactly what you mean by -bump the bodies-? You mean why didn't Beatrice increase the body count?
Yes.

Quote:
I totally agree with you - it IS arbitrary, but Shkanon depends on arbitrary subjective stuff, anyways, so I hardly see where giving Kanon a body, just in End, ruins anything, especially since we're told repeatedly that something was just sorta wrong with End, as a game.
It doesn't become any less bullshit just because attention is called to it OR that Shkanon was always arbitrary. I'm just pointing out that Kanon have his own body is, infact, even WORSE than "Kanon was behind Gohda lol" because the latter is less dishonest and inherently cheap-ass. Going with the former means conceding that Ryukishi is allowed to just uppercut the reader in the nuts as much as he wants.
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Old 2011-11-12, 19:59   Link #25594
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It doesn't become any less bullshit just because attention is called to it OR that Shkanon was always arbitrary. I'm just pointing out that Kanon have his own body is, infact, even WORSE than "Kanon was behind Gohda lol" because the latter is less dishonest and inherently cheap-ass. Going with the former means conceding that Ryukishi is allowed to just uppercut the reader in the nuts as much as he wants.
Hm. I just see "Kanon was behind Godha" as too ridiculous to accept as the actual course of events, and I agree that Kanon having a body is INDEED a punch to the balls. As stated, part of why I like Kanon having his own body in End is because Battler basically descended into what might be called cheating, since he knew Erika would have a HORRENDOUSLY misleading perception of the body count situation - Erika was aware of the first four games, and as we seem to agree, no murder, up until the Logic Error, actually necessitates the use of Shkanon.

I suppose the point of contention would be whether you think of 'End' as a "legitimate" game or not. I think, with Kanon having a body, among other little anomalies, that Ryukishi was stating something like "This is the kind of mystery you'd be getting if I was an asshole" (of course, this would be his assumption that the other mysteries he presents don't already make him seem an asshole), and thus we're allowed to somewhat disregard it, because it has no love or whateverÖ (I think I like this phrase too much...)

It sort of feels like, if I accept that Kanon was hiding behind Godha, I might as well accept that Yasu was serving people small bomb cakes. :-/
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Old 2011-11-12, 21:40   Link #25595
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And if we accept that Kanon has a body, in my opinion, we might as well accept magic because we're not longer matching up with reality at all.
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Old 2011-11-13, 00:30   Link #25596
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Are you supposing that Erika existed on Rokkenjima in the reality of R-Prime, then?

How's this for example - a tale is written, Bath of the Golden Witch, wherein it's described that Jessica has a bitchin' hot tub in her bedroom that she and the servants like to use, occasionally. Let's say it serves no purpose to the mystery, but is there, and maybe there's a fanservicey scene of Jessica using it.

Clearly, this is stupid - Jessica probably didn't really have a hot tub in her room. But you can write a story where that is the case, and it's intended to be accepted by the reader as reality, not a fantasy scene. However, the Witch Hunters basically call bullshit on you, and disregard this tale, because Word of God on the matter has been inconsistent. Ryukishi shows us a particularly egregious example of this with 'End'.
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Old 2011-11-13, 01:45   Link #25597
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Well, Erika DID exist; it's just a matter of whether or not she landed on an island. That's a magnitude different from creating a new flesh and blood person.

Quote:
How's this for example - a tale is written, Bath of the Golden Witch, wherein it's described that Jessica has a bitchin' hot tub in her bedroom that she and the servants like to use, occasionally. Let's say it serves no purpose to the mystery, but is there, and maybe there's a fanservicey scene of Jessica using it.

Clearly, this is stupid - Jessica probably didn't really have a hot tub in her room. But you can write a story where that is the case, and it's intended to be accepted by the reader as reality, not a fantasy scene. However, the Witch Hunters basically call bullshit on you, and disregard this tale, because Word of God on the matter has been inconsistent. Ryukishi shows us a particularly egregious example of this with 'End'.
That's really not the slightest bit comparable, because whether or not Kanon has a body or not radically effects how you can answer the mysteries in the tale, and whether he DOES or DOESN'T is literally a gamechanger.
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Old 2011-11-13, 02:29   Link #25598
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well it's ot so arbitrary I think. The thing that was counted in the sentences concerning the number of people were humans, 人間. Witches for example, but furniture as well, does not count as human beings, therefore of course the count of humans on Rokkenjima is normally 16...17 if they included Erika. You could say that there are 17 human bodies on Rokkenjima as well...
  1. Krauss
  2. Natsuhi
  3. Jessica
  4. Eva
  5. Hideyoshi
  6. George
  7. Rudolph
  8. Kyrie
  9. Battler
  10. Rosa
  11. Maria
  12. Genji
  13. Kumasawa
  14. Gohda
  15. Nanj˘
  16. Yasu-Shannon
  17. Kanon/Kinz˘/Erika
Were they really talking about characters at all then the witches side would hurt their own point. There can be as many characters on Rokkenjima as the author likes, but the truth is that there is only a fixed number of humans.
random reply.

Your saying that there's only 17 human/bodies on the island ? oh right i remember there's a red truth about that.
lets try to count all the bodies. We all know that from 1 to 15 names listed above its obvious that they all have their own bodies. Now remember Kinzo also had a body or should i say a corpse and who ever played Beatrice/shannon/kanon had one too. That's two additional bodies on the head count. If we add all of that we got 17 human same as the red truth. With that in mind, I don't think its possible that Kanon have a separate body and Erika being a corpse on the island . Its just denied by the Red truth.
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Old 2011-11-13, 02:39   Link #25599
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Don't forget that Ryuukishi said that EP5 contained a "venomous trap" that could lead people who had found part of the truth (Shkannon?) astray if they hadn't gotten all of it (Author Theory?).
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Old 2011-11-13, 02:48   Link #25600
AuraTwilight
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Yea, but that can apply to practically ANYTHING! Author Theory, Shkanon, the Fake First Twilights, Beatrice not being the culprit, the Man From 19 Years Ago, Erika in the body count hiding the existence of Shkanon, something involving the Epitaph, Battler not being the Detective...

It has to be one of the most ambiguous things he's EVER said.
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