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Old 2011-11-17, 01:06   Link #25661
AuraTwilight
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The Tenth Twilight is when the bomb goes off, basically.
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Old 2011-11-17, 01:42   Link #25662
unsuspectingvisitor
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The Tenth Twilight is when the bomb goes off, basically.
I think thats 9th twilight.

what about the part where Beatrice was supposed to put to sleep?
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Old 2011-11-17, 01:55   Link #25663
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The 9th Twilight is when Beatrice "revives". The Tenth Twilight is when the Golden Land is reached. As evidence, EP1 tips is as far as I need to go. Natsuhi dies on the 9th Twilight, and the cousins go missing on the 10th Twilight. Battler also goes missing on the 10th Twilight in EP4, etcetera.
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Old 2011-11-17, 02:39   Link #25664
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Yeah but why kill him? That's the problem with his existence. As far as we've ever seen, he's literally an innocent bystander. He's done nothing that merits being killed, he doesn't know what's going on, and he has no stake in any of Beatrice's wagers (he will not benefit from either resolution Sherringford describes).

So why doesn't he matter? Why is it "okay" for the culprit/Beatrice/whoever to kill him?
I don't think Ryukishi really thought that far. To me it looks like the purpose of Gohda's character is that he sets up a positive mood, and gets people to laugh right before the murders start. Kind of like an appetizer before the main course.
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Old 2011-11-17, 04:35   Link #25665
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
But then Battler comes back. Her emotions go haywire. She doesn't know what to do anymore. She is lost within the Beatrice mindset. She thinks that not being able to love is worse than dying. She sees people struggle for money...

...The theory itself has a ton of holes since it bases itself around "love" or whatever, something I'm not particularly fond of doing, but eh. Guess we'll be able to find out and laugh at how wrong I was in a few months.
So what exactly do you think? I, for one, think Yasu is innocent.

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It would also make that final meeting between him and Ange really awkward.
In any case I think Touya lied to Yukari about his memories of the Rokkenjima incident being hazy; he's hiding something from her.
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Old 2011-11-17, 11:01   Link #25666
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The 9th Twilight is when Beatrice "revives". The Tenth Twilight is when the Golden Land is reached. As evidence, EP1 tips is as far as I need to go. Natsuhi dies on the 9th Twilight, and the cousins go missing on the 10th Twilight. Battler also goes missing on the 10th Twilight in EP4, etcetera.
Maria is dead at the 10th twilight in Episode 4.
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Old 2011-11-17, 12:47   Link #25667
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
With that in mind, she decides that regardless, one of them must be granted the chance to love. George would win the love duel, and by definition, Shannon, due to him proposing.

But then Battler comes back. Her emotions go haywire. She doesn't know what to do anymore. She is lost within the Beatrice mindset. She thinks that not being able to love is worse than dying. She sees people struggle for money.

Then, as Beatrice, the wicked gambler, she proposes a game based on the epitaph:

-If she wins, then they all die and remain "together" forever, as the closed "catbox" would make them close to each other in their hearts. This would be the equivalent of being reunited in the Golden Land. She believes that the Golden Land is the equivalent of the fantasy being able to live on forever, therefore killing everyone. Ryuukishi sort of hinted towards this with the interview where he says that Beatrice killed herself so that all couples could stay happy.

-If she loses, then everyone will have money to save their lives. In her romantic view of the world, she sees this as a fair game for everyone. They either get everything, or since their lives are already ruined, they'll die and be happy forever in the 'golden land' which while highly metaphorical, Beatrice/Yasu believes in to a degree.

That's...more or less how I see Yasu murderer to have played out. My problem with that is that no matter how much I try to get inside Yasu's head, I can't come up with an explanation for this following question:
That's one of the most probable interpretations, but the problem I have with that is that in the end despite Ryuukishi's effort to make it pass as a murder for love it all comes down to madness.

Yasu had a horrible life, she received emotional (and phyisical) permanent scars, she doesn't know what to do, she is in despair, etc etc... okay, I understood that and I can also understand why one could become depressed because of that. And a person who is depressed can become suicidal and might also decide to bring someone else to the other life. That's not impossible (albeit planning a mass murder because of that is very improbable). The problem here is that this motivation is only driven by a profound egocentrism.

Yasu had a horrible life, okay, but is that a good reason to kill people that are barely responsible for that if not completely unrelated? Even when those people are the people she is supposed to love?

We have only two possibilities here:

The first is that Yasu doesn't care about what the persons she love actually want (and they certainly don't want to die), or at any rate she cares more about herself than about them. This is however the very antithesis of love. If you love someone you'd care about them more than you care about yourself. If this is true then Yasu failed at love. Maybe she loved them at the beginning but then her despair destroyed whatever love existed before. Else she wouldn't do this.

The second possibility is that she genuinely believes killing everyone is the best solution for them. This however assumes that she is batshit crazy. Yes love makes crazy, but there is a limit to the madness love can justify, and mass murder is way beyond that threshold. Delusional belief in a magical afterlife too in a slightly minor degree.

I may say that this second possibility isn't very likely, because if that was true Yasu would be determined to actualize this "wonderful" scenario. But the discussion between Will and Claire suggests that she knew she was doing something wrong. There are also hints that one part of herself wanted her plan to fail. She said that she entrusted everything to fate, meaning that she couldn't make up her mind on her own.

So I think the first possibility is the right one, but that shows a total lack of consideration for Battler, Jessica, George and Maria. Yeah Gohda too of course! But I can stomach a lot less her lack of consideration for people she is supposed to love rather than for people she is indifferent with. Where is her love? Where did it go?


Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2011-11-17, 13:15   Link #25668
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Well, RK07 stated that he made Will voiced a lot of his opinions on the matter and the final answer was basically "Regardless of what the witch really wanted, the bomb explodes and seals everything up" It kinda made me feel like she wanted to be stopped but time ran out anyways.
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Old 2011-11-17, 14:17   Link #25669
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Maria is dead at the 10th twilight in Episode 4.
No, she doesn't. She dies on the 9th Twilight. Battler is the only character described as dying on the Tenth Twilight, and there's over 24 hours between his and Maria's deaths.
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Old 2011-11-17, 14:18   Link #25670
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's one of the most probable interpretations, but the problem I have with that is that in the end despite Ryuukishi's effort to make it pass as a murder for love it all comes down to madness.

Yasu had a horrible life, she received emotional (and phyisical) permanent scars, she doesn't know what to do, she is in despair, etc etc... okay, I understood that and I can also understand why one could become depressed because of that. And a person who is depressed can become suicidal and might also decide to bring someone else to the other life. That's not impossible (albeit planning a mass murder because of that is very improbable). The problem here is that this motivation is only driven by a profound egocentrism.

Yasu had a horrible life, okay, but is that a good reason to kill people that are barely responsible for that if not completely unrelated? Even when those people are the people she is supposed to love?

We have only two possibilities here:

The first is that Yasu doesn't care about what the persons she love actually want (and they certainly don't want to die), or at any rate she cares more about herself than about them. This is however the very antithesis of love. If you love someone you'd care about them more than you care about yourself. If this is true then Yasu failed at love. Maybe she loved them at the beginning but then her despair destroyed whatever love existed before. Else she wouldn't do this.

The second possibility is that she genuinely believes killing everyone is the best solution for them. This however assumes that she is batshit crazy. Yes love makes crazy, but there is a limit to the madness love can justify, and mass murder is way beyond that threshold. Delusional belief in a magical afterlife too in a slightly minor degree.

I may say that this second possibility isn't very likely, because if that was true Yasu would be determined to actualize this "wonderful" scenario. But the discussion between Will and Claire suggests that she knew she was doing something wrong. There are also hints that one part of herself wanted her plan to fail. She said that she entrusted everything to fate, meaning that she couldn't make up her mind on her own.

So I think the first possibility is the right one, but that shows a total lack of consideration for Battler, Jessica, George and Maria. Yeah Gohda too of course! But I can stomach a lot less her lack of consideration for people she is supposed to love rather than for people she is indifferent with. Where is her love? Where did it go?


Spoiler for Higurashi:
Oh I agree that it comes down to madness. I just think that the author's interpretation of madness is very closely linked to "madly in love." I think he wants us to think that Yasu was driven to a point where absolutely anyone in her position would have at the very least considered doing what she did out of love.

I think the idea we were supposed to get is that Yasu assumed that Yasu and the others loved her as much as she loved them, and would rather die than to break their love. Remember, this is a girl who took reading murder mysteries together as a vow to spend their lives together forever after. If we assume that mindset, then we can kind of see how her logic went.

1)"I love them, they love me."
2)"Love is more important than life."
3)"Therefore they won't have a problem with dying so long as our love gets to live on."
4)"Who cares about Gohda?"

I have a problem with the solution for two reasons. One is that while I can see how the author would think that Yasu is a tragic figure, I don't. I blame her for everything that happened in the novel and I think she's an idiot. Two, even though I can twist everything to make Yasu's actions seemingly benefit the ones she loves, and even the servants(Kumasawa/Genji have magical counterparts and would love to be freed in the golden land or whatever)...I literally can't find a single reason for killing Gohda.

Yasu's biggest sin is killing Gohda. UNFORGIVABLE.
But in general, I just didn't feel sorry for her. If she isn't the culprit and I'm wrong then sure, she could be a tragic figure. But if my logic is correct and she really did kill people for the reasons I described...then yeah she's a selfish person and I really gotta question the novel's themes.
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Old 2011-11-17, 14:52   Link #25671
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Which is pretty much why I don't hold Yasu as the culprit, personally. If she is, the entire novel becomes extremely disgusting and morally repugnant.

You know, like Higanbana.
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:04   Link #25672
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No, she doesn't. She dies on the 9th Twilight. Battler is the only character described as dying on the Tenth Twilight, and there's over 24 hours between his and Maria's deaths.
Ok your right. But the thing that i don't get was the latter part of the Epitapt.

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Yeah but why kill him? That's the problem with his existence. As far as we've ever seen, he's literally an innocent bystander. He's done nothing that merits being killed, he doesn't know what's going on, and he has no stake in any of Beatrice's wagers (he will not benefit from either resolution Sherringford describes).

So why doesn't he matter? Why is it "okay" for the culprit/Beatrice/whoever to kill him?
If you think about it you can find a reason behind it.
For me he was killed because he was some kinda of a witness. Probably he witness one of the killings that took place.
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:18   Link #25673
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Ok your right. But the thing that i don't get was the latter part of the Epitapt.
What don't you understand about it? In the way it was intended, upon reaching the secret VIP Room you get all those cool gold bars and rewards and stuff. In Yasu's interpretation, a bomb goes off and everyone goes to the Golden Land as she envisions it.

Quote:
If you think about it you can find a reason behind it.
For me he was killed because he was some kinda of a witness. Probably he witness one of the killings that took place.
Except Yasu doesn't want to get away with this. She doesn't care if she's stopped or not, and if anything she wants to be stopped. So if Gohda's a witness, why NOT let him rat her out?
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:38   Link #25674
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What don't you understand about it? In the way it was intended, upon reaching the secret VIP Room you get all those cool gold bars and rewards and stuff. In Yasu's interpretation, a bomb goes off and everyone goes to the Golden Land as she envisions it.
They went to the Golden land after the Bomb goes off? That's kinda wierd thing to say.

anyways, I don get the part where Beatrice was put to sleep. Did someone Killed her just like what Ep7 was trying to tell us?
Quote:
Except Yasu doesn't want to get away with this. She doesn't care if she's stopped or not, and if anything she wants to be stopped. So if Gohda's a witness, why NOT let him rat her out?
I don't think so. If she wan't to be found out then Why did she force gohda to lie in Ep2? about kanon appearance and disappearance.

Also in ep4 it seems like gohda was a witness in first twilight murder. that's why he was killed in the garden shed.
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:38   Link #25675
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No, she doesn't. She dies on the 9th Twilight. Battler is the only character described as dying on the Tenth Twilight, and there's over 24 hours between his and Maria's deaths.
Spoiler for size:
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Old 2011-11-17, 15:50   Link #25676
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I think the idea we were supposed to get is that Yasu assumed that Yasu and the others loved her as much as she loved them, and would rather die than to break their love.
Well as I said I don't really buy this interpretation because if she really did that she'd think she was doing the right thing, which I believe it's not the case, but opinions...

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Which is pretty much why I don't hold Yasu as the culprit, personally. If she is, the entire novel becomes extremely disgusting and morally repugnant.
Let's disregard who actually killed everyone in the real world. There is still the fact that Yasu is the culprit in almost any fictional game. Ryuukishi's words on the last Keia's interview do not really leave many doubts about that matter.

Yes they are fictions, but that's not an excuse for lack of consistence and a satisfactory explanation, especially when they take 90% of the whole story and when that's practically all you read in EP1 and almost all you read in EP2 and EP3.

The games are the only confirmed mysteries in this story, the real world might as well not being a mystery at all! These mysteries have a confirmed culprit: Yasu.
So the whodunit is covered, the howdunit will be hopefully fully covered on the next fuyucomi, what we miss is a decent whydunit. And after EP7 Ryuukishi kinda raised everyone's expectations about that.
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:05   Link #25677
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They went to the Golden land after the Bomb goes off? That's kinda wierd thing to say.

anyways, I don get the part where Beatrice was put to sleep. Did someone Killed her just like what Ep7 was trying to tell us?
After the bomb goes off, nothing remains. Beatrice ceases to be, either because Yasu dies in the bomb explosion, she kills herself or is killed, or she somehow lives but no longer plays the part of Beatrice. No matter how you slice it, Beatrice goes to sleep forever.

Quote:
I don't think so. If she wan't to be found out then Why did she force gohda to lie in Ep2? about kanon appearance and disappearance.

Also in ep4 it seems like gohda was a witness in first twilight murder. that's why he was killed in the garden shed.
Because he's in on it, probably bought with gold. There's a difference between forcing someone to lie for you and letting someone escape.

@Rogerpepitone: Okay, damn, I concede that. I blame the inability to call up the Ending Scroll on demand without going through hours of text. >_>

On the other hand I will note that Maria goes to the Golden Land when she dies anyway, as shown in the Meta-narrative, so Maria might be a special case there regardless of how things are meant to be; Maria reached the Golden Land, ergo the Tenth Twilight. Similar to how Kanon pretty much takes up every Twilight but the first in EP6.

Quote:
Let's disregard who actually killed everyone in the real world. There is still the fact that Yasu is the culprit in almost any fictional game. Ryuukishi's words on the last Keia's interview do not really leave many doubts about that matter.
That's fine. There's a magnitude of difference between killing someone in a fictional story and actually doing it.

Quote:
Yes they are fictions, but that's not an excuse for lack of consistence and a satisfactory explanation, especially when they take 90% of the whole story and when that's practically all you read in EP1 and almost all you read in EP2 and EP3.
Ryukishi and consistency/satisfactory explanations? Surely you jest, kind sir.

Quote:
The games are the only confirmed mysteries in this story, the real world might as well not being a mystery at all! These mysteries have a confirmed culprit: Yasu.
So the whodunit is covered, the howdunit will be hopefully fully covered on the next fuyucomi, what we miss is a decent whydunit. And after EP7 Ryuukishi kinda raised everyone's expectations about that.
Someone apparently set off the Kaboom on Rokkenjima Prime, unless it was a hilarious accident. If Yasu did it, she's the culprit but a highly unsatisfactory one that kind of kills the work dead in the thematic waters. But it's also possible she's not the culprit of R-Prime, and she has many reasons not to be but claim otherwise.
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:26   Link #25678
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They went to the Golden land after the Bomb goes off? That's kinda wierd thing to say.
You're not reading the story hard enough mate. The golden land is umineko's version of afterlife (from a certain point of view). It's a metaphor that's emphasized over and over again by Maria and by piece Battler in his wordy mental dialogue.
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:29   Link #25679
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If you think about it you can find a reason behind it.
For me he was killed because he was some kinda of a witness. Probably he witness one of the killings that took place.
That's...not the issue. The issue is that Yasu is portrayed as a sympathetic character who killed out of believing she did the right thing. Killing someone because he was a witness is selfish. There is no tragedy, there is no motivation, there is no justification, it's just pure cold-blooded murderer of an innocent being who just happened to witness her atrocities.

The issue is that there is basically no moral justification for Yasu murdering Gohda. I mean if all we want is a reason for a non-sympathetic murder to kill Gohda, then the answer can be "fuck it who cares he's Gohda."
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:38   Link #25680
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That's...not the issue. The issue is that Yasu is portrayed as a sympathetic character who killed out of believing she did the right thing. Killing someone because he was a witness is selfish. There is no tragedy, there is no motivation, there is no justification, it's just pure cold-blooded murderer of an innocent being who just happened to witness her atrocities.

The issue is that there is basically no moral justification for Yasu murdering Gohda. I mean if all we want is a reason for a non-sympathetic murder to kill Gohda, then the answer can be "fuck it who cares he's Gohda."
So, then someone else had to kill him.
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