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Old 2011-11-20, 12:35   Link #25761
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In Umineko you need to tell who is the culprit, how he performed the murder and why. For the game to be fair, all of these must have a human explanation, and metalogic is not a human explanation.

That's why I don't believe it is possible to explain the movent of fictional Yasu that way.
That is what basically tells you when an explanation is wrong, sin't it?
If you have to resort to magic to solve a question, like "he did it for the opening of the golden land" or "magic opened the lock" or "he floated" then something with your scenario is inherently wrong...note though that a logic error can only be claimed if the opponent has access to "rules" themselves. Like Erika was able to claim certain things about the reality layer of EP6, so BATTLER and Beato had to use a magic story to "patch the error".

The games fairness does not denote itself by every scenario being fully explainable by human means. It is our job to expose the points where the game crashes because it relies on insufficient truth and to create a scenario that is able to fully explain everything with a human culprit.
That is how I understood the game.
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Old 2011-11-20, 12:49   Link #25762
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well that'd be fair if in Umineko the "message bottle and forgeries" authors wouldn't be characters in the story themselves.
But they are.
The reader/writer relationship is true of any given story that has readers (even tho some writers are seemingly entirely unaware of it...).
Usually however it's not the emphasis of most stories.
If you say that it's not an emphasis of Umineko I guess we got 100% different feelings while reading the story so I can't really add to that.
I don't understand your point nor how is it relevant to deny mine.


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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

The games fairness does not denote itself by every scenario being fully explainable by human means. It is our job to expose the points where the game crashes because it relies on insufficient truth and to create a scenario that is able to fully explain everything with a human culprit.
That is how I understood the game.
This is more of a problem about rules than about fairness. I believe that according to the rules of the game you need to find whodunit, howdunit and whydunit, and that all three of them must have a human explanation. I dismiss the possibility that Yasu would consciously break those rules, therefore she must have thought of a motive for her Yasu culprit to kill everyone inside her story.

No I think it's even more than that, I believe that the motive of her Yasu culprit in her stories is probably the most important reason she wrote those stories in the first place. She couldn't have asked Lambdadelta's help to write something that half-assed to not even have a proper logical movent.
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Old 2011-11-20, 13:26   Link #25763
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And yes it becomes murder, but that my whole point. Do not forget however that if what was told was true, Kinzo set the bomb on "on" several times before. If that simple action alone made her a mass murderer then Kinzo has been a mass murderer several times long before her.
There is still the chance that she might have found the urge to turn the trigger off before it was too late despite what she was planning.
Wasn't the fact that Kinzo set the bomb a mere speculation done by the siblings?
And however, as long as he didn't let the bomb explode, we can't know if he ever had the intention of letting it explode or if he was just... playing a dangerous game he has no plans of losing.
It might even be he set the bomb on and off when his family and servants weren't on Rokkenjima.

There's too little material to judge Kinzo.

If he set the bomb on while his family was there and was ready to let it explode shouldn't fact X happen then he was a potential mass murderer. But we'll never know if he would have let it explode as he didn't let it explode during his life.

However, whoever set the bomb during Umineko let it go KABOOM...
If it was Yasu for her game, unless she had the intention to merely set it to scare the siblings and was determinate into setting it off before it'll explode well yes, she was planning a mass murder and was willing to become a mass murderer.

Instead, if she merely used it to cover up the mass murder committed by someone else or to kill the real mass murderer her position changes quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No it's all wrong. The scene where you see Battler waking up and then taking the boat happens on the 6th. This was written on clear letters and it was daytime. So it was at least 6 hours after the explosion.

Why do you think Battler had to have left the island before that? Eva didn't either. The explosion didn't engulf the whole island, the Kuwadorian and the submarine base were safe.

also EP8 confirms that the explosion happened exactly at midnight. There might be an error of a few seconds but not minutes.
I think I said many times I think that scene is fantasy therefore, as far as I'm involved, Battler could have left at any time.

Eva couldn't leave because she was in Kuwadorian, likely without a boat and had to wait the police before leaving.
Why would Battler wait so long then leave when he knew Kawabata would have come to take them back?
If he didn't want to meet him it was safer to leave earlier.
Also leaving during daytime made more possible for him to be spotted. If he wanted to be spotted he would have done better to stay where he was or circumnavigate the island to the point he would get in front of the main port.

Battler can't stand to fast moving vehicles so he couldn't have travelled fast. To reach Rokkenjima from Niijima airport they took 2:30.
Okay, probably Battler didn't need to reach the airport still if he traveled less fast than Kawabata the travel was going to take quite a lot of time, increasing the risk to cross Kawabata or the police, should someone notice the island went KABOOM and warn the police.

Also I doubt he could know the exact range of the explosion. According to him he lost his way... could he really tell if he was in a zone that was safe from the explosion or not?

Also, even if the storm was calming down the sea likely would calm down in a slower manner.
We can't be sure that by the 6th, the sea was calm even if the storm had gone.
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Old 2011-11-20, 13:50   Link #25764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Let's assume the murders or at least some of the events actually continued until the late hours of the 5th. Battler, Yasu or Eva is finally able to stop the culprit(s).
Now they encounter a problem. On the morning of the 6th Kawabata will arrive to pick them up and will definitely want to see the island if only 2 people are at the shore. They have only little time left to set off the bomb so that it destroys the evidence on October 5th and prevents anybody from knowing.
So Yasu, Battler and Eva (in case Battler is the culprit he may be excluded, but I'd doubt that) form a pact which will make Eva the legal guardian of Ange and provide her with the legal rights to Rokkenjima but makes her give up the money that was sent to the relatives. Battler was supposed to accompany her, but something went wrong which Eva blamed herself for (that would explain why Eva "killed " Battler in the end of EP3 if we consider part of that scenario to be her feelings of guilt). Yasu decided to stay on the island and set off the bomb with not enough time to escape the radius, because she was never actually "alive" anyway and wouldn't be missed...instead it would have created more of an impact had she suddenly turned up.

So BATTLER jumping in the ocean in the scene during EP8 could also show what happened to him. That basically Battler tried to commit suicide, knowing that somebody actually killed herself to absolve his family of their sins.
Although your scenario is plausible enough there are some points that don't persuade me.
First, I find hard to believe that the scene in game 3 depict Eva's guilt.
It's from Battler/Toya's point of view, it would be more logical if it were to depict with it they feel Eva is guilty toward them that to have Eva's sense of guilt reach them (unless Toya and Eva had had the chance to chat and Eva had told him she felt guilty for abandoning him Battler/Toya can't know she felt guilt for it).

It's also difficult to figure what could have hold back Battler. Surely that wasn't the moment to have a walk around Rokkenjima and, if they were going to cause the island to go KABOOM they don't have to hide stuffs, since they would go blown up.

If Yasu went to set the bomb and Eva escaped and Yasu didn't have enough time to escape then, by the time of the explosion, Eva would have still been pretty close to the explosion. At best this would have caused her to fall. There's no mention however her clothes were dirty or how she was bruised when the police found her (though considering Umineko don't mention wet clothes either it's possible this detail went overlooked).

Also you need something else to go wrong so that Battler can't stop Yasu from going Kaboom with the island.
Basically the scene would be that he escaped, leaving her behind then decided he felt so guilty he tried to commit suicide few hours after.
At this point he could have remained with her and go KABOOM with her.

He also had to be sure she died and didn't instead escape as well and reached Kuwadorian which would imply he checked Kuwadorian.

In short I see plotholes in your scenario. If you can fix them though it might work just fine.
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Old 2011-11-20, 14:10   Link #25765
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So far I think this reconstruction is pretty solid. However a few pages before we were discussing about how very little sympathy we can feel for the Yasu of this scenario. The fact that it's a "fictional Yasu" and not "real Yasu" to me bear little importance. In fact there's no real Yasu in the end, they are both fictionals. I see no reason why should I use different standards to judge them.
I see a reason: One is a mass murderer and the other isn't.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So some kind of murder happened, probably after the discovery of the gold, probably because of the discovery of the gold. Needless to say it, but Kyrie is a prime suspect here. I just hope the scenario Ryuukishi imagined isn't as retarded as what was shown in EP7 tea party.
Well, when Ange viewed the "Book of One Truth", the sequence of scenes went-
  • Pile of gold with Shannon, THEN
  • The mansion in daylight, THEN
  • Bloodstain
Which certainly paints a different order of events to that of the EP7 Tea Party. At least it seems incompatible with "Oh you found the mountain of gold. Here's 4 loaded guns just sitting next to it. Have fun!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
So Yasu, Battler and Eva (in case Battler is the culprit he may be excluded, but I'd doubt that) form a pact which will make Eva the legal guardian of Ange and provide her with the legal rights to Rokkenjima but makes her give up the money that was sent to the relatives. Battler was supposed to accompany her, but something went wrong which Eva blamed herself for (that would explain why Eva "killed " Battler in the end of EP3 if we consider part of that scenario to be her feelings of guilt).
That's an interesting idea for why Eva kills Battler in EP3, but your scenario also kind of makes it hard for Eva to be involved in writing Banquet. Is it all just Touya guessing that Eva feels guilty?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think I said many times I think that scene is fantasy therefore, as far as I'm involved, Battler could have left at any time.
It's pseudo-fantasy, really. Sure, Beatrice is there talking to Battler, but there's no magic or discussion of magic. The first thing I imagined is that the scene went pretty much exactly as depicted except that the person Battler was talking to didn't look like the Beatrice we know, but probably Shannon.
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Old 2011-11-20, 14:26   Link #25766
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Wasn't the fact that Kinzo set the bomb a mere speculation done by the siblings?
We have never seen the siblings saying something like that. To be precise it is something that was reported by people that knew Kinzo. Apparently Kinzo liked to boast that he created that there was that bomb and that he used that way to create an incentive for his gambles.

Anyway you do not deny the existence of that bomb, so isn't it illogical to think he created it for no reason? What is harder to believe is the very existence of that bomb not how he used it. And besides the very existence of that and its very possession is criminal by itself.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If he set the bomb on while his family was there and was ready to let it explode shouldn't fact X happen then he was a potential mass murderer. But we'll never know if he would have let it explode as he didn't let it explode during his life.
By the same logic you'll never know if someone who possess mass-desctruction weapons is actually going to use them. But the mere possession is enough to justify a war apparently, and people hardly understand why one would possess mass destruction weapons if he isn't planning to use them.

I might sound unoriginal here, but would you put it past Kinzo? What is your reason to deny that at this point?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Instead, if she merely used it to cover up the mass murder committed by someone else or to kill the real mass murderer her position changes quite a bit.
But why would she die in the explosion then? Isn't more plausible that Eva or Battler did that if that was the case?


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think I said many times I think that scene is fantasy therefore, as far as I'm involved, Battler could have left at any time.
No he couldn't. He couldn't leave during the typhoon, you even said that much yourself.

You first said that you didn't understand how could Battler escape during the typhoon and now you say that he could?

He didn't, there's no reason to think he did. That means he at least escaped on late 5th. At any rate the sea was calm. Or anyway there is no logic in claiming that the sea definitely wasn't calm.

Also I don't think you quite grasp the evidence that it was the 6th



Does that convince you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If he didn't want to meet him it was safer to leave earlier.
Also leaving during daytime made more possible for him to be spotted. If he wanted to be spotted he would have done better to stay where he was or circumnavigate the island to the point he would get in front of the main port.
I don't think Battler was in its right mind so this whole speculation is pointless in my opinion. He wasn't in a state where he could make logical decisions.

The fact that he didn't circumnavigate the island and he wasn't actually going to the nearest island (Niijima) also proves that he wasn't thinking straight.
According to what was reconstructed he probably just went straight off from the "back" reaching the mainland rather than Niijima.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
probably Battler didn't need to reach the airport still if he traveled less fast than Kawabata the travel was going to take quite a lot of time, increasing the risk to cross Kawabata or the police, should someone notice the island went KABOOM and warn the police.
But why are you even assuming that Battler didn't want to be found?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also I doubt he could know the exact range of the explosion. According to him he lost his way... could he really tell if he was in a zone that was safe from the explosion or not?
No he knew, he definitely knew. Else why he would try to escape through that tunnel? Eva as well wouldn't do that if he didn't know that the Kuwadorian was safe. Yasu must have told them that much.
He lost his way but only insofar that reached the military base rather than the Kuwadorian but that doesn't change the fact that he knew there was a safe area and he was trying to reach it.
At any rate trying to escape in a boat during that typhoon was a sure way to kill himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I see a reason: One is a mass murderer and the other isn't.
Standards! Standards!
What you say is different sin not a different standard!

And whether one is a mass murder and the other is not it's all to demonstrate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, when Ange viewed the "Book of One Truth", the sequence of scenes went-
  • Pile of gold with Shannon, THEN
  • The mansion in daylight, THEN
  • Bloodstain
Which certainly paints a different order of events to that of the EP7 Tea Party. At least it seems incompatible with "Oh you found the mountain of gold. Here's 4 loaded guns just sitting next to it. Have fun!"
I don't think that daylight part is a definitive proof of anything because the whole slideshow was shown in monochrome, which might have caused the scripters to think it wasn't important to show the nightime one and opted that one to make it more clear in monochrome.
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Old 2011-11-20, 15:19   Link #25767
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1"
Umineko denies any chance at reaching a good ending that includes 'The Rokkenjima tragedy never took place'.
The best we can get is 'someone survived to it' and 'Ange dealed with the tragedy in a way that didn't lead her to die or to kill people'.
It turns out the entirety of 1998 is a Forgery. The entire series was written by Lion Ushiromiya in Rokkenjima Prime, as an exercise to consider just how fortunate he truly is. The true ending is after writing the series he goes on a date with his boyfriend, Will, who is a badass lawyer he made into a Meta-character in his story.

See?

Quote:
Is George deep down greedy and ambitious?
Has he found out that Shannon is the real heir to Kinzo and wants to marry her just for this?
Did he murder someone on Rokkenjima Prime and Eva took the blame to cover up her son's sin?
George has spoken multiple times of wanting to forge his own Empire. He doesn't want to inherit anything from Kinzo, but wants to be just as grand as he was. And he'll do anything, including MURDER, to have Shannon.

Quote:
That's correct. Usually when you say RPG people think about D&D and a fantasy setting, but there are several kind of RPG in the tabletop universe. Yes there can be detective RPG as well.
There ARE, actually. I could totally link to the wikipedia pages of some.
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Old 2011-11-20, 15:34   Link #25768
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It turns out the entirety of 1998 is a Forgery. The entire series was written by Lion Ushiromiya in Rokkenjima Prime, as an exercise to consider just how fortunate he truly is. The true ending is after writing the series he goes on a date with his boyfriend, Will, who is a badass lawyer he made into a Meta-character in his story.

See?
Really nice idea.

Quote:
George has spoken multiple times of wanting to forge his own Empire. He doesn't want to inherit anything from Kinzo, but wants to be just as grand as he was. And he'll do anything, including MURDER, to have Shannon.
George always felt to me more like a teenage who's daydreaming about his future in an immature idealistic way. Always thought reality might hit him hard when he starts to try his "empire", not to mention a lot of what he had in mind for Shannon cannot happen.
Basically I think he's mostly all talk.
It's hard for me not to apply what he says about Maria in arc 1 to himself.
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Old 2011-11-20, 15:44   Link #25769
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In short I see plotholes in your scenario. If you can fix them though it might work just fine.
Okay, I'll try to make it short.
Eva's guilt: The Episodes are an amalgamation of different viewpoints, while I also believe that it is mostly T˘yas/Battlers view of the scenario, it is not unlikely that another persons motives and ideas are mixed into the scenes.
Of course the scene could also hint to T˘yas lingering suspicion of Eva, because she as the only survivor is somebody that is definitely possible to be the culprit.

The time: Let's assume the distance between Kuwadorian and the mansion takes about 20-30 minutes of walking. Now let's say it is 20 minutes to midnight. Like Rosa's riddle in EP8 said, you can't go in and out when the bomb explodes, but you can be inside when the bomb explodes and fulfill the task.
This'd also explain the extreme pressure on Eva and Battler that could have caused Battler to arrive at a different location.

Why didn't Battler go back? There are several possibilities for that.
(A) The most likely is that the tunnels would be collapsed or at least severly damaged by the explosion and the following landslides. Going back is like risking your life and throwing everything away that was just done for you.
(B) Meeting Kawabata now would produce more questions than anything. He can't go back to the mansion site without drawing attention to himself and he probably doesn't know the upper-area way to Kuwadorian.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That's an interesting idea for why Eva kills Battler in EP3, but your scenario also kind of makes it hard for Eva to be involved in writing Banquet. Is it all just Touya guessing that Eva feels guilty?
Probably Eva already expressed guilt on Rokkenjima if they really did devise such a plan. T˘ya could probably tap back into that moment when he watched on the news how Eva suffered under that media attack in the 90's. He probably inserted some of that into his depiction of Eva in Banquet...while also hazzily remembering what actually happened.

----

Some other interesting things I found in the manga which could be considered.
The way the events are shown (not told) when Natsuhi accepts the baby, she really had no fault in the cliff accident. Actually she merely stumbled upon the site of the accident and felt guilty about it. How this actually happened cannot be said, but it definitely didn't appear like she had pushed that servant...she simply wished for the baby to dissappear somewhere in her heart and when an accident did happen she blamed herself.
Regarding that...Kinz˘ should have probably built a concrete wall around those cliffs...THEY are the murderers on Rokkenjima

Also the TIP about the Labours Day presents in Tsubasa chapter 3 is also quite more telling than I thought before. Eva actually is a total housewife and not the harsh business woman she'd like to appear as. Rosa is absolutely terrified of Maria finding out about her affairs. And especially, Rudolph still seems to be having affairs with other women and seems to think of Kyrie as capable to kill him over such an affair.
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Old 2011-11-20, 15:50   Link #25770
Jan-Poo
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Regarding that...Kinz˘ should have probably built a concrete wall around those cliffs...THEY are the murderers on Rokkenjima
No the culprit is the guardrail! Why it wasn't there where it was supposed to be?
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Old 2011-11-20, 16:08   Link #25771
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We have never seen the siblings saying something like that. To be precise it is something that was reported by people that knew Kinzo. Apparently Kinzo liked to boast that he created that there was that bomb and that he used that way to create an incentive for his gambles.
The siblings (as well as the narration) speculate about the bomb in EP 7 Tea party when they heard it existed and figured Kinzo might have used it to blow up the island... and them as well.

Would you mind telling me to which scene you're referring?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway you do not deny the existence of that bomb, so isn't it illogical to think he created it for no reason? What is harder to believe is the very existence of that bomb not how he used it. And besides the very existence of that and its very possession is criminal by itself.
If he merely wanted to destroy the mansion, possibly covering up the existence of the gold, and not to kill the people in it, he didn't aim at mass murder.
According to EP 7 the explosive was in the secret base. It might be he couldn't remove it for some reasons (getting rid of so much explosive couldn't be that easy and it might require revealing things he wanted to keep hidden) so he didn't remove it but created a detonator.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
By the same logic you'll never know if someone who possess mass-desctruction weapons is actually going to use them. But the mere possession is enough to justify a war apparently, and people hardly understand why one would possess mass destruction weapons if he isn't planning to use them.
I don't have experience with owning mass-destruction weapons but so far more than one coutry owns them and they aren't using them.

Sure, if you want to go at war with someone the fact he owns mass-destruction weapon is an excuse as good as many others that were used in the past when mass-destruction weapons didn't exist.

But let's go with something smaller. People might own a gun and never plan to use it to murder someone. Some do it for self defence. Some because owning a gun is 'cool'. The fact that he owned explosive alone can't be a proof he planned to kill someone when he never used it.
Otherwise every gun owner is a murderer in disguise.
I agree that it was wrong that he kept some explosive hidden there the same way it would be wrong if you were to own a gun without having the permission for it.
But from here to say he planned murdering everyone that's a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I might sound unoriginal here, but would you put it past Kinzo? What is your reason to deny that at this point?
He never killed anyone with the bomb. End of the story. We can't read in his mind and we can't hold him culpable for something in the end he didn't do.

I don't like Kinzo and it can be you're right and he wouldn't have hesitated in killing the Rokkenjima residents but HE DIDN'T DO IT.

It's not murder if the bomb didn't explode and it's not attempted murder if he doesn't set the bomb with the intention to let it explode while people were in Rokkenjima and something stops him from killing everyone.

EP 8 hinted that Kinzo actually loved his children and grandchildren so I can't be sure he would willingly murder them all.

In EP 5 when Krauss realized he could be discovered he said he wanted Natsuhi to ask divorce so she and Jessica could not be involved. If Kinzo planned to use the bomb he might have thought to send away his wife and children before setting it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But why would she die in the explosion then? Isn't more plausible that Eva or Battler did that if that was the case?
I'm from the group that think that Yasu survived and became Ikuko so I've no explanation about why she would die because I don't think she died.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No he couldn't. He couldn't leave during the typhoon, you even said that much yourself.

You first said that you didn't understand how could Battler escape during the typhoon and now you say that he could?
To be exact I think Battler never escaped on his own but got injured, managed to reach the exit of the tunnel, fainted and then was carried away by Yasu. In EP 2 we see Yasu has no problems using a boat even when there's a storm going on. She would have managed to drive whatever they used to escape, wouldn't be afraid if the sea wasn't calm and, if Battler was unconscious or half unconscious he wouldn't have managed to panic.

EP 3 hinted that Battler might have been shot, Yasu might have decided to not take him to Kuwadorian but away from the island, which would explain why Battler ended up in the 'wrong' direction and why his memory is fuzzy (thought he could have lied and he could remember everything pretty well).

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Also I don't think you quite grasp the evidence that it was the 6th



Does that convince you?
Either you think I'm dumb or that I don't believe you if you feel the need to show me the screenshot that said it was the 6th.

You said the game said it was the sixth. I believed you. I had no reason to think you were lying. I said for me this is a fantasy scene so it's not necessary trusthworthy.
Your screenshot for me means as much as a screenshot saying that Ange died on Rokenjima in EP 4 in 1998.
It's just fantasy and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Battler was in its right mind so this whole speculation is pointless in my opinion. He wasn't in a state where he could make logical decisions.

The fact that he didn't circumnavigate the island and he wasn't actually going to the nearest island (Niijima) also proves that he wasn't thinking straight.
According to what was reconstructed he probably just went straight off from the "back" reaching the mainland rather than Niijima.
Well, that's your opinion. We have no proofs he was or wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But why are you even assuming that Battler didn't want to be found?
There's evidence he did things that would make harder to track him down, through you wave it away as 'he wasn't thinking straight'. There's no evidence he wanted to be found out.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No he knew, he definitely knew. Else why he would try to escape through that tunnel? Eva as well wouldn't do that if he didn't know that the Kuwadorian was safe. Yasu must have told them that much.
He lost his way but only insofar that reached the military base rather than the Kuwadorian but that doesn't change the fact that he knew there was a safe area and he was trying to reach it.
At any rate trying to escape in a boat during that typhoon was a sure way to kill himself.
Battler was trying to reach Kuwadorian not the boat. He got lost, he wasn't familiar with the place and he couldn't be sure the place he reached was safe. But here we're straying away from my theory... and yours too.

If he wasn't thinking straight as you assume we can't assume he rationally thought that escaping on a boat would be dangerous and staying there would be safe.
We simply can't assume what he would have done because, since he wasn't thinking straight, we lose all the option to rationalize his behaviour. He could have done everything and it could have looked rational to him.
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Old 2011-11-20, 17:19   Link #25772
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It turns out the entirety of 1998 is a Forgery. The entire series was written by Lion Ushiromiya in Rokkenjima Prime, as an exercise to consider just how fortunate he truly is. The true ending is after writing the series he goes on a date with his boyfriend, Will, who is a badass lawyer he made into a Meta-character in his story.

See?
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George has spoken multiple times of wanting to forge his own Empire. He doesn't want to inherit anything from Kinzo, but wants to be just as grand as he was. And he'll do anything, including MURDER, to have Shannon.
It would be a good motive to kill Battler since he's George's most dangerous rival... (and I'm probably evil but I like to fink the two had a fight on Rokkenjima Prime... and considering George might kill with a kick it could have been a pretty dangerous fight...) but then if he was willing to kill everyone else, his parents' included (and Hideyoshi seemed respectful of George's feelings for Shannon) then he was pretty insane...
Though I guess even Hideyoshi could have been against the idea of him marrying Shannon if he were to find out Shannon was George's aunt...

George, you're starting to look scary...
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Old 2011-11-20, 17:35   Link #25773
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Would you mind telling me to which scene you're referring?
It's in EP8 from the future perspective

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If he merely wanted to destroy the mansion, possibly covering up the existence of the gold, and not to kill the people in it, he didn't aim at mass murder.
Which is why he moved the explosives and the gold near his house rather than letting them stay at the military base on the other far end of the island?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
According to EP 7 the explosive was in the secret base. It might be he couldn't remove it for some reasons (getting rid of so much explosive couldn't be that easy and it might require revealing things he wanted to keep hidden) so he didn't remove it but created a detonator.
Okay, first the explosives where on the military base, as you said, and the gold as well. But the military base is on the Kuwadorian side. So Kinzo moved the gold and the explosive on the mansion side. where he and his family lived.
Second it is useless to try the line of defense that "he just couldn't get rid of it" when he created a detonator to blow all of them at once. The explosives were also kept in good condition and it would have been easy to render them harmless by mixing them with salt water.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I don't have experience with owning mass-destruction weapons but so far more than one coutry owns them and they aren't using them.
But they are prepared to.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But let's go with something smaller. People might own a gun and never plan to use it to murder someone. Some do it for self defence.
Self-defense when applied to guns just means "kill them first". Guns won't protect you against bullets. If you aren't prepared to use a gun you better not own one.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Some because owning a gun is 'cool'.
you don't need bullets if it's just for collection and display.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The fact that he owned explosive alone can't be a proof he planned to kill someone when he never used it.
That's a wrong way to put it. If one plays the russian roulette and survives, did he plan to kill himself or not? What matters is that his plan could have caused his own death.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
He never killed anyone with the bomb. End of the story. We can't read in his mind and we can't hold him culpable for something in the end he didn't do.
I never said he killed anyone. We can't read his mind? This is the speculation thread! And I'm not coming up with wild guesses here, it was said that Kinzo had that kind of plan.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
EP 8 hinted that Kinzo actually loved his children and grandchildren so I can't be sure he would willingly murder them all.
What is your logic behind your choice of what to trust and what not?

Is there a reason why you think this particular scene is to trust while many others that I pointed at aren't?


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
To be exact I think Battler never escaped on his own but got injured, managed to reach the exit of the tunnel, fainted and then was carried away by Yasu. In EP 2 we see Yasu has no problems using a boat even when there's a storm going on. She would have managed to drive whatever they used to escape, wouldn't be afraid if the sea wasn't calm and, if Battler was unconscious or half unconscious he wouldn't have managed to panic.
Or maybe he fainted and then woke up later by himself when the water was calm.
What makes this version impossible?


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You said the game said it was the sixth. I believed you. I had no reason to think you were lying. I said for me this is a fantasy scene so it's not necessary trusthworthy.
But your decision not to trust it is totally arbitrary. Let's even say that your theory is correct. Why then it couldn't have happened on the 6th? Why Ryuukishi went all the trouble to create that new Background if Battler's escape from the island didn't happen on the 6th? Why it is so important for you that Battler escaped before the explosion? What makes it impossible that it didn't happen on the 6th as it was shown?

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There's evidence he did things that would make harder to track him down, through you wave it away as 'he wasn't thinking straight'. There's no evidence he wanted to be found out.
You need an evidence for something unusual not for something natural. Next you'll ask me evidence that he was breathing. It is only natural that the survivor of a tragedy wants to be rescued, Eva did for example. What is the evidence that Battler didn't want to be found? And what would be his reasons?
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Old 2011-11-20, 18:36   Link #25774
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's in EP8 from the future perspective
Honestly I can't remember it. Is it in the part that hadn't been translated yet?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Which is why he moved the explosives and the gold near his house rather than letting them stay at the military base on the other far end of the island?
If he wanted to blow up something it's likely because something went wrong. Likely in his house he held the important documents he would do better to destroy. Why to blast Kuwadorian when the documents he wanted to destroy weren't there? Likely he would want to destroy the gold also, so it wouldn't get in the 'wrong' hands (if he could use the gold to fic the problems then I guess they wouldn't be problem anymore).

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Okay, first the explosives where on the military base, as you said, and the gold as well. But the military base is on the Kuwadorian side. So Kinzo moved the gold and the explosive on the mansion side. where he and his family lived.
Second it is useless to try the line of defense that "he just couldn't get rid of it" when he created a detonator to blow all of them at once. The explosives were also kept in good condition and it would have been easy to render them harmless by mixing them with salt water.
I've no idea if it's so easy to make an explosive harmless. Honestly I'm not sure.

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Self-defense when applied to guns just means "kill them first". Guns won't protect you against bullets. If you aren't prepared to use a gun you better not own one.
It can also means to scare someone in not attacking you or just harming him before he'll hurt you (though generally this works only in movie... -_-).
And it's still not considered the same as willingly murdering someone or as willingly planning to murder someone.
Really if someone were to call a person that owns a gun 'murderer' just because he owns it for self-defence purpose and never had to use it, it would look ridicule.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
you don't need bullets if it's just for collection and display.
I doubt many collectionists will share your feelings. They want the complete gun in the same way that if they collect swords, they'll keep them sharp.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's a wrong way to put it. If one plays the russian roulette and survives, did he plan to kill himself or not? What matters is that his plan could have caused his own death.
If I play the russian rolulette and point my gun to the wall when I shot I'll always survive even if the bullet get shot.
Kinzo might have turned the switch on but the switch was done in such way that he had so much time to stop it that, even if he turned it on and lost he could still have the time to turn it off.
Generally in Russian Roulette you don't have so much time as you're assumed to point the gun to your head and, once you push the trigger, there's no way to stop the bullet so you can't cheat unless you aim at something that's not your head (the wall) or use a fake gun or fake bullets... if I'm not wrong their name in English is blanks...

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I never said he killed anyone. We can't read his mind? This is the speculation thread! And I'm not coming up with wild guesses here, it was said that Kinzo had that kind of plan.
I know it was said. Though I didn't know it was said in EP 8 I remembered it was said in EP 7, remember? However it was speculation. I'm allowed to dismiss it as speculation and not as proof.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What is your logic behind your choice of what to trust and what not?

Is there a reason why you think this particular scene is to trust while many others that I pointed at aren't?
I think each of us is chosing to trust in certain scenes and discharge others according to a certain logic.

However my problem is that you want to accuse Kinzo of being a mass murder due to the explosive when he didn't kill anyone and we can't prove he had the intention of doing so. Saying he could have, doesn't constitute proof he had the intention of doing so.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Or maybe he fainted and then woke up later by himself when the water was calm.
What makes this version impossible?
Considering that Battler is quite a strong boy and people don't faint just because, he unlikely suffered of starvation or intense thirst and he should be under adrenaline rush and therefore being unable to feel exaustion, if he fainted he should have been injuried. Now, how he got injured? If someone shot him and it was due to blood loss and he waited more than six hours lying there he was probably dead when he woke up. If he hit his head because part of the tunnel fell on his head then the tunnel wasn't a safe place, it could have completely crumbled on him and he survived merely out of luck therefore it was more rational to try and leave it using the boat.

Generally, if you faint for a blow in the head and stay unconscious for long it's a sign you reported several damage but, since fainting might have caused exaustion to catch up on Battler I'll give you he could have remained unconscious without being in 'head trauma' danger.

Still, if a bit of the tunnel fell on him it wasn't the safe place you depicted it to be.

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But your decision not to trust it is totally arbitrary. Let's even say that your theory is correct. Why then it couldn't have happened on the 6th? Why Ryuukishi went all the trouble to create that new Background if Battler's escape from the island didn't happen on the 6th? Why it is so important for you that Battler escaped before the explosion? What makes it impossible that it didn't happen on the 6th as it was shown?
It's not arbitrary unless you believe that Beato realy went with Battler and Battler and Beato really drowned themselves.
Ryukishi went on the trouble to create many fictional things for the plot sake.
I find that the escape of Beato and Battler is beautiful and romantic but fictional. I apprecciate he created it. I just don't think that's what that had happened.

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You need an evidence for something unusual not for something natural. Next you'll ask me evidence that he was breathing. It is only natural that the survivor of a tragedy wants to be rescued, Eva did for example. What is the evidence that Battler didn't want to be found? And what would be his reasons?
We already discussed this. I already pointed at how his actions made harder for people to find him, in fact he wasn't found by the captain or the police and I already gave you my explanation on what I thought it happened.

If he wanted to be found it was natural to try to do his best to be found, which would be staying in Rokenjima and waiting for the ship, instead than going far from Rokkenjima. It's because his behaviour is unnatural for someone who wants to be rescued that you need to give evidence that he wanted to be rescued.

His behaviour points he wanted to escape from the island without waiting for someone to rescue him.

You decided to wave it off saying he wasn't thinking straight therefore his actions made no sense... which ironically doesn't insure he wanted to be found out when he left because, if he wasn't thinking straight as you say, he might even think it would be better if he weren't to be rescued.
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Old 2011-11-20, 19:12   Link #25775
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Honestly I can't remember it. Is it in the part that hadn't been translated yet?
frankly I don't remember where it is and I don't feel like trying to hard, but it was translated. The best I can do is to quote that part:

Quote:
`During his lifetime, Ushiromiya Kinzo built a clock rigged to blow up the island at exactly 24:00.`\

`This clock was apparently inside his secret study.`@` When he felt mentally cornered and wanted to think up a brilliant plan,`@` he would activate that device and use the tension of the approaching midnight to bring some flash of inspiration to him.`\

`While Ushiromiya Kinzo still lived, this was only thought of as a tall tale about this eccentric man,`@` ......but the fact that the Rokkenjima Explosion Accident occurred at exactly 24:00 supported the story...`\

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If he wanted to blow up something it's likely because something went wrong. Likely in his house he held the important documents he would do better to destroy. Why to blast Kuwadorian when the documents he wanted to destroy weren't there? Likely he would want to destroy the gold also, so it wouldn't get in the 'wrong' hands (if he could use the gold to fic the problems then I guess they wouldn't be problem anymore).
You don't need to blast a whole house to destroy some documents, neither you need an explosion of that magnititude to destroy ten tons of gold (they occupy less space than you think).
You are trying hard to come up with a good explanation for that device but you aren't really succeding in my eyes, it's all completely illogical and unreasonable.
The gold wasn't even on the mansion side in the first place.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It can also means to scare someone in not attacking you or just harming him before he'll hurt you (though generally this works only in movie... -_-).
And it's still not considered the same as willingly murdering someone or as willingly planning to murder someone.
Really if someone were to call a person that owns a gun 'murderer' just because he owns it for self-defence purpose and never had to use it, it would look ridicule.
But I never did that, you are equating the two things. There is a reason why it is legal to possess a gun but not a machine gun (yes not even in the U.S.). Do you really don't understand the difference? The possession of a machine gun would be automatically considered a felony on the assuption that you wouldn't possess such a thing if you didn't intend to use it for ill purposes.
Let's not even talk about 900 tons of explosives.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If I play the russian rolulette and point my gun to the wall when I shot I'll always survive even if the bullet get shot.
You are not playing the russian roulette if you do that.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Generally in Russian Roulette you don't have so much time as you're assumed to point the gun to your head and, once you push the trigger, there's no way to stop the bullet so you can't cheat unless you aim at something that's not your head (the wall) or use a fake gun or fake bullets... if I'm not wrong their name in English is blanks...
Carefull, you can still kill yourself with a blank if you trigger it at point blank on your head.
Anyway Kinzo's device wasn't a blank.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I know it was said. Though I didn't know it was said in EP 8 I remembered it was said in EP 7, remember? However it was speculation. I'm allowed to dismiss it as speculation and not as proof.
I wish that people would acknowledge that a theory based on something that is actually written in the story has more ground than a theory based on a mere speculation. But maybe is asking too much.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
However my problem is that you want to accuse Kinzo of being a mass murder due to the explosive when he didn't kill anyone and we can't prove he had the intention of doing so. Saying he could have, doesn't constitute proof he had the intention of doing so.
That's not what I said. What I said is that if the mere action of turning the trigger on "on" is mass murderer then Kinzo was a murderer several times before Yasu.
Go back and check if you don't believe me.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Considering that Battler is quite a strong boy and people don't faint just because, he unlikely suffered of starvation or intense thirst and he should be under adrenaline rush and therefore being unable to feel exaustion, if he fainted he should have been injuried. Now, how he got injured? If someone shot him and it was due to blood loss and he waited more than six hours lying there he was probably dead when he woke up. If he hit his head because part of the tunnel fell on his head then the tunnel wasn't a safe place, it could have completely crumbled on him and he survived merely out of luck therefore it was more rational to try and leave it using the boat.
I think you are underestimating the devasting effect of knowing that your whole family was wiped out. It is quite possible that Battler suffered from a psychological trauma, we know he isn't that strong on that department seeing what happened not much later.

Also it is quite possible that he received an injury during the explosion. An explosion of that magnitude must have caused serious shockwaves, it's not unrealistic at all to think that Battler was hit on the head by a falling rock.

Finally it is also quite possible that Battler fell asleep from physical and psychological exhaustion. It was midnight after all and the explosion just happened. Was there any reason to rush away from the island at that point?


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Still, if a bit of the tunnel fell on him it wasn't the safe place you depicted it to be.
Come on... he wasn't vaporized in tiny molecules. It was relatively safe in comparison.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's not arbitrary unless you believe that Beato realy went with Battler and Battler and Beato really drowned themselves.
Ryukishi went on the trouble to create many fictional things for the plot sake.
I find that the escape of Beato and Battler is beautiful and romantic but fictional. I apprecciate he created it. I just don't think that's what that had happened.
We disagree a lot if you think that the fictional stuff doesn't even have a metaphorical meaning.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You decided to wave it off saying he wasn't thinking straight therefore his actions made no sense... which ironically doesn't insure he wanted to be found out when he left because, if he wasn't thinking straight as you say, he might even think it would be better if he weren't to be rescued.
But there is evidence he wasn't thinking straight, that's how it was depicted. However you decided to ignore anything that proves that.

I can't do anything to prevent you from following your own ideas but at least acknowledge that your theory isn't more probable than simply accepting what is apparent.
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Old 2011-11-20, 20:00   Link #25776
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
frankly I don't remember where it is and I don't feel like trying to hard, but it was translated. The best I can do is to quote that part:
Thanks for quoting it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You don't need to blast a whole house to destroy some documents, neither you need an explosion of that magnititude to destroy ten tons of gold (they occupy less space than you think).
You are trying hard to come up with a good explanation for that device but you aren't really succeding in my eyes, it's all completely illogical and unreasonable.
The gold wasn't even on the mansion side in the first place.
You don't need to blast a house to kill your relatives either.
The fact that Kinzo had such device is illogical in the first place.
No explanation is good for it, not even that he wanted to play russian roulette with it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But I never did that, you are equating the two things. There is a reason why it is legal to possess a gun but not a machine gun (yes not even in the U.S.). Do you really don't understand the difference? The possession of a machine gun would be automatically considered a felony on the assuption that you wouldn't possess such a thing if you didn't intend to use it for ill purposes.
Let's not even talk about 900 tons of explosives.
If we keep on going on with examples we'll end up on placing in each other mounths things we didn't say.
However I'll apprecciate if you stop talking at me as if I were stupid.
I think everyone knows the law would forbid Kinzo to own that much explosive and that the law forbit people from owning it because it assumed who wants to own it would use it for ill purposes. You've another purpose? The law doesn't care, you're guilty anyway and the law isn't supposed to care if you had another purpose. You can't keep it. Period. This doesn't mean you can't have another purpose.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Carefull, you can still kill yourself with a blank if you trigger it at point blank on your head.
Anyway Kinzo's device wasn't a blank.
No, but it could have been stopped should he change his mind. In short he might have been said he was playing russian roulette but never pushed the trigger.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I wish that people would acknowledge that a theory based on something that is actually written in the story has more ground than a theory based on a mere speculation. But maybe is asking too much.
I wish you wouldn't use sarcasm.
The 'charm' of Umineko is that there is not definite truth. The white test can lie, the red test can lie, the people can lie.
I give you your theory is based on something the story said. The story also said Kinzo was a caring grandad.
You chose to believe in a part of the story, I picked up the other. We can slam each other head one against the other as many times as we want but we can't prove if it's your part of the story that's true or mine.

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That's not what I said. What I said is that if the mere action of turning the trigger on "on" is mass murderer then Kinzo was a murderer several times before Yasu.
Go back and check if you don't believe me.
Why you keep on acting as if I didn't believe you? Have I called you a liar?
If you think I didn't report what you said correctly, did you consider maybe I misunderstood you or explained myself poorly?

To explain myself better:
Yasu apparently turned the trigger on and did so with murder in mind. If someone anticipated her this makes her turning her trigger on merely attempted mass murder.
We can't prove that Kinzo ever turned the trigger but if he did and then turned it off on his own and never had the intention to let it go kaboon this makes him an idiot, a jerk, a bastard but not someone who attempted mass murder on purpose (through law might not agree on the principle that's not the sort of games a person is allowed to try out).

I'm discussing intentions here.
If Yasu had the intention to kill someone and tried to carry out that intention even through her plan went thwarted she's guilty, legally and morally.
If Kinzo merely wanted to play a dangerous game but never had the intention to hurt a soul he's legally guilty but not so much morally... though he's definitely an idiot.

Through I wish Ryukishi would give us a better explanation for the island's explosion than Kinzo wanted as island with a self destruction button because no matter how you look at it, that's rather unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Come on... he wasn't vaporized in tiny molecules. It was relatively safe in comparison.
Personally I wouldn't stay in a place that can crumble on my head and bury me alive. I think drowing would be a way better death if I've to pick up between the two options.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
We disagree a lot if you think that the fictional stuff doesn't even have a metaphorical meaning.
I already had this discussion. The fact I don't think it had the same metaphorical meaning you think it had doesn't mean it had no metaphorical meaning at all for me.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But there is evidence he wasn't thinking straight, that's how it was depicted. However you decided to ignore anything that proves that.

I can't do anything to prevent you from following your own ideas but at least acknowledge that your theory isn't more probable than simply accepting what is apparent.
You tell me he wasn't thinking straight, then you tell me he was acting logically, according to how it suits your point.
I acknowledge you're entitled to your opinion, I'm merely not sharing it.
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Old 2011-11-20, 21:40   Link #25777
Renall
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I wanted to tangent for a second because I wanted to get back to a thing we were on a page or two ago and got away from.

Namely, I'm a bit perplexed by Ryukishi's thought process with respect to the Battler/Kyrie/Rudolf-as-culprits thing and whether we're supposed to believe it or reject it as him being a tease and a troll.

He loves teasing this theory, perhaps more than he likes talking about Yasu even. There's the ep7 Tea Party, Bern's game in ep8, Eva's behavior, BLACK BATTLER (*funk riff*) in an extra TIP, and all of it seems designed to throw the idea into our face, yet with so many questions and problems attached that it's almost like we're not really supposed to believe it.

Yet at the same time... he's not really offering us any evidence that we're not supposed to believe it. The only thing telling me Battler WASN'T the culprit is that the narrative has given me no good reason to believe he had a motive and the only reason I don't believe Kyrie is the culprit is that her stated motive makes no sense given her prior characterization. The facts themselves don't seem to exonerate the theory Ryukishi keeps pushing, only the meta-fictional notion that the narrative is somehow "wrong" if we accept it as true, leaving us with too many questions that aren't adequately answered. As dumb as Yasu's stated motive is, it is at least a motive. Battler isn't even given one. Why should I believe Ryukishi's teasing that he's the culprit?

Yet at the same time, why is he teasing me with something he knows I have too many problems with to believe? Who does he think is actually being fooled? Is his goal to fool anyone? What the hell is his goal with this whole branch of Umineko's endgame?

Is he trying to generate a dichotomy between "Yasu culprit" which has too many problems of fact and "Battler culprit" which has too many problems of motive, and expecting us to choose between them? Are we supposed to reject both and settle on a third answer? What's the evidence we're meant to use to discern and prove that, then? Certainly we've not been able to do it so far, and we've tried.
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Old 2011-11-20, 22:39   Link #25778
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Who would make for a truly satisfying culprit within Umineko?
Not like, after a theoretical arc that would explore such possibility, but with the current information. Suppose if you want Ryuukishi decides to just say the "answer" in a straight way.

Judging from Ange's reaction in arc 8 when she learns the truth.... it doesn't seem like a very satisfying nor even a shocking one.

I don't care at all about Rokkenjima Prime, but if I did I'd probably assume that something similar to Kinzo's backstory reoccured on Rokkenjima and that Battler's immediate family came off in an antagonistic light from the POV of the survivor, Eva.
Greed, fear, wanting to survive, wanting to protect the ones you love, and a lack of time to think straight between events can lead to a rapid everyone dies scenario where no one is really _the_ culprit.
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Old 2011-11-20, 23:00   Link #25779
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George is totally the culprit. Truefax.
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Old 2011-11-20, 23:28   Link #25780
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You don't need to blast a house to kill your relatives either.
The fact that Kinzo had such device is illogical in the first place.
No explanation is good for it, not even that he wanted to play russian roulette with it.
According to what was said Kinzo's purpose of that bomb wasn't just to kill his relatives, but to destroy all that he possessed (or at least what was close to him). The explosion was meant to destroy at least the Mansion, the Chapel and the underground rooms with the gold.
So yes, maybe it didn't need to be that huge, but close enough.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You've another purpose? The law doesn't care, you're guilty anyway and the law isn't supposed to care if you had another purpose. You can't keep it. Period. This doesn't mean you can't have another purpose.
It doesn't mean it is smart to assume there is another purpose. Let me make a few examples:

One person is found in possession of 10 kg of drugs. Considering it is a certain fact that he actively entered in possession of them, is it smart to think he isn't planning to sell them?

Another person trying to join a manifestation is found in possession of a gas mask, molotovs, and other several damaging tools. Is it smart to think that he didn't plan anything bad?

I don't think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The 'charm' of Umineko is that there is not definite truth.
That's not what Ryuukishi said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I give you your theory is based on something the story said. The story also said Kinzo was a caring grandad.
A mad caring grandad. Even supposing that he acted as it was shown in EP8 that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't kill his family out of a gamble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We can slam each other head one against the other as many times as we want but we can't prove if it's your part of the story that's true or mine.
So what is your method to choose which is false and which is true?

I try to put myself from the perspective of the author and think about where he would lie and where he wouldn't. That's through this method that I reached the conclusion that it was more likely that he lied about the people dying in EP3 rather than pulling a shkanon troll in EP6.

I have however often the impression that a lot of people rather use the methods
1) What I like is true, what I don't like is fake
2) What fits with my pet theory is true, what it doesn't is fake


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Why you keep on acting as if I didn't believe you?
Because you say I said thing that I never said. Namely that anyone who possess a gun is a murderer and that Kinzo is a mass murderer. And on the last part of this post you just said that I said that Battler was acting logically, even though I didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
To explain myself better:
Yasu apparently turned the trigger on and did so with murder in mind.
Wait, you agree with this?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If someone anticipated her this makes her turning her trigger on merely attempted mass murder.
Attempt murder is only slightly less criminal than actual murder. I wouldn't say "merely".


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If Yasu had the intention to kill someone and tried to carry out that intention even through her plan went thwarted she's guilty, legally and morally.
If Kinzo merely wanted to play a dangerous game but never had the intention to hurt a soul he's legally guilty but not so much morally... though he's definitely an idiot.
If that's so, yes. But if he was gambling and if he was prepared to let the bomb go off should random event x happen, then he wouldn't be a mass murderer just for mere luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Through I wish Ryukishi would give us a better explanation for the island's explosion than Kinzo wanted as island with a self destruction button because no matter how you look at it, that's rather unrealistic.
That's totally unrealistic. But I don't think we should assume that the story Ryuukishi wrote is completely realistic at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally I wouldn't stay in a place that can crumble on my head and bury me alive. I think drowing would be a way better death if I've to pick up between the two options.
Personally... hell no! Drowning looks like a terrible death to me. Anyway you are assuming that Battler knew the cave would crumble. That's probably not the case. All he thought was that he was safe from the explosion, he probably didn't think he wasn't completely safe from the shockwave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You tell me he wasn't thinking straight, then you tell me he was acting logically, according to how it suits your point.
No, I never said he was acting logically. I said he woudn't jump on a boat in the middle of a typhoon. I said he wasn't thinking straight but that's a far shot from saying he was acting randomly.

A person that is under mild effect of alcohol might not think straight, but that doesn't mean he'd do something completley crazy and random or that he wouldn't recognize an apparent danger.

Quote:
Yet at the same time, why is he teasing me with something he knows I have too many problems with to believe? Who does he think is actually being fooled? Is his goal to fool anyone? What the hell is his goal with this whole branch of Umineko's endgame?
That's Ryuukishi for you. He creates a scenario while hinting at two or more interpretations that are however pursposedly flawed. So people will split into two groups and start discussing (flaming) about which side is right and which is wrong.

For example he purposedly created the Shkanon VS ghosterika debate after Episode 6. I can't deny that he's a genius at that, but he's an evil genius...
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-20 at 23:47.
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