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Old 2011-11-21, 07:37   Link #25801
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
You're welcome. Now you know what it feels like. Turnabout of this minor amount is fair play after the months and months of vitriolic spew we had to endure from you. That's totally appreciated for it's brown offal like quality too. And that's not just me speaking here.
I'm pretty sure I've never told anyone that they were the only one ignorant on a subject; but regardless I've already been talked to about my attitude and I've been working on it; you're kinda late. :P But I'll let you have your own personal retort, I can't say you don't deserve one.

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Can you please say what you mean without resorting to hyperbole? I mean, do you seriously believe we know NOTHING" about Rokkenjima Prime at all? I mean... not even stuff about Eva surviving and Battler-Tooya? Is this absolutely in-arguable? I mean, here I am, arguing that we do know something about Rokkenjima Prime, are you going to strike me down as I speak?
I think you understand what I mean, dude. We don't know anything that happened except for Battler and Eva surviving. Otherwise everything is up in the air. For all we know Ange stowed away, killed everyone as an evil genius toddler, went back home, and got amnesia.

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No, I think we know quite a few more things about Rokkenjima Prime now. Your attitude smacks of the same EP2 "OMFG it's magic, it's all useless" attitude. Which I know you don't really have. So please, just tell us what you mean and stop this swearing and arguing in extremes.
I swear casually, even if I'm calm; you can disregard it.

But my point is that Prime is one big unknowable blank with current information. It's in no way comparable to "fuck it, magic so it's IMPOSSIBLE to REASON."

We can reason fine, but we can't confirm a damn thing, so we can't make statements like "I don't think EP8's Bern puzzle is reliable" any more than we can say "EP7 Tea Party is totally the truth."

Every bit of information we have, for the most part, is a 'maybe'.

Quote:
Here, let's talk about something actually worthwhile. If you want to resort to saying everything is useless, go somewhere else. And like I said, if you want to question Ryukishi's authorial skills, please talk about it somewhere else.
Bite me, you're the one who butted into a conversation I was having with OTHER PEOPLE and told me to stop. If you don't like it, don't read it. Don't fucking talk to me like people have to put up with my vitrolic arguments and mannerisms and then turn around and tell me "I don't think your discussion is worth while, go elsewhere."

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2. But more importantly... that Yasu *must* write it this way in order to expose her misdeeds. She *must* kill Shannon and Kanon in Rokkenjima Prime and so therefore her stories, which must illustrate ultimately what she's thinking and feeling, MUST kill off Shannon and Kanon. The bad part is that she takes advantage of this.
May I ask, in order to continue your reasoning, how this reflects on scenes where Shannon and Kanon seem to be revived in an allegorical sense?
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Old 2011-11-21, 08:32   Link #25802
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That monochrome thing makes sense, but in any case the mansion was still shown before the blood.
Ah yes, I almost forgot that, but I also noticed that discrepancy.
The hidden frames seem to raise even more questions, like for the example the presence of George.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Are we Americans so stereotyped as gun-happy that this comes as a surprise to people!?
Unfortunately yes... but it goes bothways. I have seen many times americans believing that in Europe it's forbidden to possess guns.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Somehow I get the impression that I'm one of the people you have in mind when you say these things (correct me if I am wrong)
Honestly, probably nobody is completely free from that kind of bias, and yes that includes myself. To avoid that trap is therefore better to try ways to invalidate your theory rather than trying ways to validate it. That's a general rule that works in the whole field of experimentations of any kind.

A failure in the attempt to invalidate a theory tells you a lot more than a success in the attempt to validate it.

However in Umineko this kind of process tend to become ridiculous when you are entitled to dismiss entire scenes as "fake". How exactly can you invalidate a theory then? There has to be a logic behind that. And if there isn't... well then it's probably useless to even try to speculate.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
First, Ikuko=Yasu:
There's some solid thematic evidence of this, namely that Ikuko can be read as 19, her name means "many children", and she and Yasu share the habit of giving people names that can be read as numbers. I do not deny that Ikuko=Yasu raises numerous logistical questions about how the transition occured, but if ShKanon being the legitimate answer has taught us anything, it's that this kind of thematic evidence carries enough weight to overcome any logistical problems that the theory might create.
I acknowledge that "19" paired with "many children" constitute enough proof that this can't be simply a coincidence. However there are the numerous logistical questions that you also recognize, and I think that Ryuukishi couldn't go as far as to entrust an extremely relevant part of his plot just to a few mere play on words rather than on a more thematic level.
There is absolutely no comparison to, for example, Shkanon that can count on his side several dialogues that directly point at that with the correct interpretation.

The play on words on Hachijo's name maybe just means she's the new Beatrice, as she is in a sense since she wrote the forgeries. Though I admit it isn't really satisfying, but I admit I'm kinda at loss as to why Ryuukishi placed those hints (or red herrings) like that in such a crude manner. However Renall pointed out another pretty similar situation, and I fear I cannot really tell where Ryuukishi is trying to get us to some truth or just teasing us.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Second, the bottle-letter conspiracy (the idea they were written post-incident):
There's something awfully suspicious about them, and I'm not entirely projecting that; their origin is presented as mysterious. That they were created pre-incident is seemingly impossible, yet there is seemingly irrefutable evidence that they were created pre-incident. It's a puzzle quite analogous to a closed room murder, which are usually illusions, right? And who wrote this stuff? Beatrice, the master of illusion!
However that's no proof that there is absolutely something odd about them.

Spoiler for Higurashi:



Quote:
Renall, and probably others here have remarked how "You are incompetent" can't really be a red because it's not The Truth (tm)
I still maintain that there can be objectivity in someone's incompetence...
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Old 2011-11-21, 09:12   Link #25803
Cao Ni Ma
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Well I mentioned already that RK07 stated that the "numbers in name" wasn't really a thing ( at least to Shannon and Kanon) whether or not it applies to Ikuko is up in the air. He's done a lot of subverting with easy to spot things like this, still it comes down on whether you prefer that Ikuko was a random stranger or a person Battler new before.

Anyways on a different tangent, something I picked up reading a quote from another forum

Mathew 25:31-
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. "...he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He then goes on about how basically the sheep deserve heaven for being good people and the goats deserve to burn in hell for being bad people.

Do you think RK07, a person that MUST have read some choice segments of the bible out of necessity for his novel, was somehow influenced by this. Would you rather be a sheep or a goat?
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Old 2011-11-21, 09:33   Link #25804
UsagiTenpura
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Concerning George (too lazy to quote messages from last page)
I can sorta get how he was suspcious to a relative extent in the early arcs.
However Chiru doesn't seem to have promoted the idea at all and instead promoted that Eva was most likely innocent.
So to go back with my original question, about a satisfying culprit, would you be really satisfied with George as culprit?
Personally I think the level of "evidence" against George is something nearly all the characters have. I also think George would be the least satisfying culprit along with Jessica as they'd come out close to being 100% fake.

Oh and a sort of suggestion, I guess?
Jan and Jiblue's long messages made me think of it but...
Well doing a "size spoiler" whenever a message is longer then what fits in a screen (1080 I guess) would really be appreciated, at least by me ^^;;
Especially when said message is about 50% "broken" quotes from previous messages.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-21 at 10:26.
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Old 2011-11-21, 09:43   Link #25805
Cao Ni Ma
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Nearly all the characters kinda drop out of the radar during the core arcs. So we really cant focus on them if we want to try to find out who's the culprit. If there was a culprit thats not Yasu, and we can figure it out base on the texts, then it had to be written by Battler on a subconscious level. I dont think we can use hard evidence in in the stories since those barely exist and the little that do point at Yasu.
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Old 2011-11-21, 09:56   Link #25806
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Can someone explain It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! again?
Does Yasu count as a servant? or as someone said (sorry don't remmember who) it was not spoken in Beato's gameboard,but if that's true and beato's gameboard does not support Van Dine , how was WIll able to say other rules IN Beato's Gameboard.
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:03   Link #25807
UsagiTenpura
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Guess I'm really not making my point clearly...
I'm trying to say that there cannot be a truly satisfying culprit for Rokkenjima prime outside of personal hatred for a character or personal pet theory that goes way back.
The main reason is as you say that we basically know nothing about Rokkenjima Prime (to the point that I doubt it exists at all).

Furthermore the people who seemingly know the truth/learned the truth never had a spectacular change of heart toward a character on the gameboard (well except toward Beatrice I guess).
Then no matter who'd be the culprit, Ange and Battler both seems to have originally held a lot of hatred for the "idea of the culprit" yet when they learned the truth everything just seems to vanish.
I've read theories about it being to protect someone else or whatever but I really don't think that's the attitude gamemaster Battler had toward anyone. I also am fairly certain that Bernkastel would've enjoyed rubbing that "horrible truth" in our face. The excuse of Battler's love or possibly guilt or other feelings that would explain his "attitude change" is not compatible with Will and Ange's own reactions. Actually Will's quite a good "hint" I believe as he never even barely cared about Rokkenjima Prime.

Within the arcs, the culprit is "Yasu" or however you want to call the person behind Shannon and Kanon, that much should be obvious to everyone by now, that they like the theory or not.

Then for the rest Ryuukishi picked a bunch of different characters (Eva, Natsuhi, Erika, Kyrie, Rudolph, Battler and arguably Rosa) and played with the idea they might be culprit, but always in the light that we should find it offensive and impossible to accept - even if it should actually be the truth(including Erika in arc 6 as the "heart" would be ridiculous).

To resume things, from the character's attitudes and reactions, I deduce that whatever happened or didn't happen in Rokkenjima Prime is not something where you end up hating or even blaming anyone.
No matter who the culprit would be at this point, it couldn't really be satisfying as you'd have to explain why is it that everyone who figures out the truth (as opposed to simply Battler or Beatrice) decides to "protect" said culprit.
Ange protecting George? Ridiculous.


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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Can someone explain It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! again?
Does Yasu count as a servant? or as someone said (sorry don't remmember who) it was not spoken in Beato's gameboard,but if that's true and beato's gameboard does not support Van Dine , how was WIll able to say other rules IN Beato's Gameboard.
The point was just to rule out a "NPC" like character. The idea of that kind of red exists more to rule out people like Kuwabata then anyone on the island.
From what we were told in arc 4, anyone in the Umineko universe can try to say things in red but it will only succeed if it's actually valid.
Look at Battler's attempt to say things in red in arc 4.
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:05   Link #25808
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Can someone explain It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! again?
Does Yasu count as a servant? or as someone said (sorry don't remmember who) it was not spoken in Beato's gameboard,but if that's true and beato's gameboard does not support Van Dine , how was WIll able to say other rules IN Beato's Gameboard.


"Beatrice" is the culprit and she's a witch. Or, "Yasu" is the culprit but she ain't Shannon or Kanon, so she aint a servant. She's actually the head of the Ushiromiyas. Or the reds dont apply to the other games. Or she isn't the culprit at all. Take your pic and just go with it!
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:41   Link #25809
Jan-Poo
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I agree with UsagiTempura that I can't really see how Umineko can have a satisfying culprit at this point.
But the main problem is that no matter what you pick, it would come out as either a total ass pull (Hey the culprit is Hideyoshi, who had a complicated story and background that made him do that, but none of that was ever told or properly hinted through 8 fucking arcs!) or the confirmation of one of the usual suspects that however doesn't make anyone happy or satisfied: ("Kyrie did it, the goats were right! meh..." or "Yasu did it... and it was awfully stupid...")

In order to have a satisfying culprit you'd need at least (at least!) one chapter entirely centered on the culprit motive and the background that led him to that decision. However the only character that got that is Yasu.

Kyrie just grabbing the chance to get the money is just lame... and retarded...

Let me say this, but any kind of murder plan where you have an apparent motive and that doesn't also include the construction of an alibi for yourself is far from being a smart plan. Even worse if you won't be able to deny that you were in fact on the crime scene at the time of the crime! Even worse if it'd be hard to explain who else could do it beside you.
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Old 2011-11-21, 10:57   Link #25810
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well I mentioned already that RK07 stated that the "numbers in name" wasn't really a thing ( at least to Shannon and Kanon) whether or not it applies to Ikuko is up in the air. He's done a lot of subverting with easy to spot things like this, still it comes down on whether you prefer that Ikuko was a random stranger or a person Battler new before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interview with Keiya
K Letís go on to the real names of Kanon and Shannon, was there any meaning in their names, Yoshiya and Sayo? Apart from being able to see numbers in them.

R Itís quite close to the number theory, but I would rather not reveal it.
That seemed fairly suggestive to me, personally. But even without that, there's the strong thematic argument for it, and a bunch of issues that would be explained, like:

- Why does Ikuko randomly adopt a stranger into her family and keep him a secret? (Because she knew who he was and didn't want him to become a suspect in the incident.)
- Why do things that Battler shouldn't have known keep finding their way into Tohya's stories? (Because they were inserted by Ikuko.)
- Why are the third and fourth games considered by Will and Clair to be Beatrice's work? (Because Ikuko helped write them.)
- What was Yasu doing during the two-year blank leading up to the incident? (She was secretly building the identity of "the rich novelist Ikuko Hachijou" and considering whether to abandon her life on the island.)
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Old 2011-11-21, 11:12   Link #25811
Jan-Poo
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If it's close to the number theory, then that means it's something different than the number theory.

What else can that be? Word theory is the only thing I can think off. So Kanon is Jesus...
Whatever Ryuukishi...
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Old 2011-11-21, 11:13   Link #25812
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Regarding whether or not we can actually have a "satisfactory" R-Prime culprit - well, probably not, no.

However, I blatantly disagree that a situation that had over a dozen people going to a family function as they do every year and EXPLODING TO DEATH didn't involve someone being a douchebag. Eva's presence in the Kuwadorian has always discredited the idea that the explosion was entirely accidental.

Long story short, SOMEBODY did SOMETHING that, at the very least, pushed the first gilded domino.
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Old 2011-11-21, 11:13   Link #25813
Cao Ni Ma
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It really is circumstantial, instead of using the number connection I used the religious one. Yoshiya, Sayo, Yasu and Lion could all have a link to Jesus, and if she really is taking the fall for everyone in the island then it fits thematically as well. So it depends on what you want to actually happen, unless RK07 comes out with an absolute definitive truth we really wont know.

e- I really have tried to make a lot of religious connections to this story, I think the general intrigue of it started in EP2. I had to ask myself why a japanese writer whose other work I've seen was very japanese (shinto) and then have a sudden shift to western (christian) motifs. I guess growing up in japan you would know more about shinto that you would about christianity, so he would have to willingly subject himself to learning at least something about it. You wouldnt spend that much time researching quotes in the bible and the key of solomon just for them to be very minor elements in the story.
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:35   Link #25814
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
You wouldnt spend that much time researching quotes in the bible and the key of solomon just for them to be very minor elements in the story.
By that logic I can deduce that obscure knowledge concerning italian subs of WW2 is not a minor element of the story.
Nearly all writers do some mythology and technical research to know what they are using in their stories. There isn't anything very particular about that.
Also Im fairly certain that most of Ryuukishi's "research" can be resumed as reading the divine comedy (concerning religious symbols), which he obviously did.
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:42   Link #25815
Jan-Poo
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which he obviously did.
Really? I think that anything that emerged from his story on the matter can be reconducted to simple encyclopedic knowledge. There's nothing that really makes me think that he actually read the whole work or even part of it.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:32   Link #25816
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Basic knowledge of a material would be something like he used in Dante's inferno. You know its about a guy going trough all different parts in hell, purgatory and then heaven to find his lost love. Along the way he gets a guide name Virgilius and even Beatrice is a guide at one point.

Passing knowledge about christianity would be something like, its about a guy that claimed to be god's son and died in a cross for our sins. Passing knowledge about WW2 would be that you knew that there where Allied and Axis powers fighting for their own reasons, usually economical and imperialistic.

Actually going about and naming passages that would seem completely irrelevant or that you could simply ignore and use less obscured ones though? RK07 seriously just on a whim decided to use the Emmanuel passage when he could just have used any passage that used Jesus? I dont know, it seems like he had deeper intentions with those lines or he's a sperg on details like these.

e- He really didnt have to read all of the key, just the plates. But he also had to gather more somewhere since some of the things he references aren't there.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:46   Link #25817
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But you see the fact that a character's name refers to something else in literature, mythology and so on doesn't always mean that there is a deep meaning behind that. There's plenty of examples of that in anime and manga.

Incidentally "Cao Ni Ma" what exactly made you chose that politically incorrect nick?
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:13   Link #25818
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Renall, and probably others here have remarked how "You are incompetent" can't really be a red because it's not The Truth (tm)
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I still maintain that there can be objectivity in someone's incompetence...
Fair enough. But why can you say something like this in red?

Die the death.The Great equalizer is the DEATH

Does that even really mean anything...? How is it true? Is it just said in red because it's cool?
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:22   Link #25819
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But you see the fact that a character's name refers to something else in literature, mythology and so on doesn't always mean that there is a deep meaning behind that. There's plenty of examples of that in anime and manga.

Incidentally "Cao Ni Ma" what exactly made you chose that politically incorrect nick?
You're absolutely right! Giving your characters a name just because you think it sounds awesome is ok and happens more than enough in anime. If there was no discernible pattern to them then its not much of an issue. But I do feels there's a pattern here, and it keeps popping up from time to time in the story. Which makes me think that there's more too it than what it seems. Then again I might be seeing things that really aren't there a la 23.

As for my name, I freaking love Grass Mud Horses and its easier to have this name in forums that my more known nickname of Cross. (surprisingly enough, Ive been agnostic since 3rd grade )
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Old 2011-11-21, 14:30   Link #25820
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It's just said in red because it's cool...
Well yeah no need to go over it again, Renall summed up my thoughts on the matter pretty well when he said that Ryuukishi fucked up.
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