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Old 2011-11-22, 12:16   Link #25861
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
He wouldn't invest that much for such an abstract concept.
After making a story where you have a funeral where a book is inside of the casket instead of a corpse? I very much disagree, we don't seem to have picked up the same themes at all for the serie tho. I guess there's not much point in pursuing that as anyway I don't think Ikuko = Yasu.

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But it wouldn't be such a sad event. Have you read the lyrics of byakumu? Even then Beatrice should have been the one to survive if Battler won (which by the way it was always said and hinted that he came too late). And the metaphor shows that Battler died because Beatrice did, not viceversa.
No I actually barely remember the song, Ill check it again tonight but it'd be nice to have a transcription of the lyrics somewhere if you have them.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
~So much text~
I think you were missing the simple point I was trying to make.
It's not about trying to figure out the entire truth concerning that massacre, and you might indeed be right anyway that Kinzo is definitively to blame concerning it (if you want the most suspicious part, I'd say it's that Kinzo somehow was able to tell us about the dud).
However I'm simply saying that "the story he told us concerning it" is not a story where we can find a definite "culprit" when accepted as such.
It was said in reply to the comparison with Rokkenjima Prime, and I was simply using it to show that "a situation where everyone dies without a definite culprit is indeed possible, at least theoretically".
If you want a much simpler and smaller example, take only the two japanese soldiers who shot each other out of fear that the other was an enemy due to the situation.
We're talking about a theoretical scenario leading to a massacre, not about what actually happened whenever, wherever.
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Old 2011-11-22, 12:34   Link #25862
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
No I actually barely remember the song, Ill check it again tonight but it'd be nice to have a transcription of the lyrics somewhere if you have them.
I provided a full translation here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1832

check the one after the Edit, since it's based on a more reliable source and it's complete.
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Old 2011-11-22, 13:03   Link #25863
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once tried to see if it could be possible to connect what happened on 1945 and the Kinzo's claim that he once was put in the position to decide who to sacrifice to safe the other two from:

yourself
the person you love
everyone else (!)

Considering Kinzo's character we all assumed he chose the option "c". What if that situation happened on that military base in 1945? What if he purposedly orchestrated that massacre so he could be with Beatrice?

And if it wasn't that... then when did he have to make that choice?
That is something I kept wondering myself while re-reading EP 4 too...I think based on a scene in EP 7, it is entirely possible that Kinzo plan that massacre to trap Beatrice. It also makes us question the version of the story told by Kinzo earlier too.

Could I ask more? If the (c) option means killing everyone to grasp the gold and Beatrice, what is the other two possibly means? The rule is when one option is chosen, the other two would be destroyed. What does it means by "choosing himself" aka commiting suicide in the (a) option? Will Beatrice and "everybody else" survive? If that is the case, does it mean Kinzo hold a bigger responsibility in the massacre that just suggesting it? And how would the situation have changed if Kinzo had chosen (b), to sacrifice his love?

Sorry I'm not sure whether it had been discussed before, but this thread is getting insanely huge.
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Old 2011-11-22, 13:15   Link #25864
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Let's not forget that Ryuukishi also left many hints for ghosterika in EP6 and that lyricalAura was a supporter of that theory (and therefore shkanon denialist) as much (if not more) as she is supporting ikuko=yasu now.
I can only guess what ghosterika is. Having first read all of Umineko from start to finish only a few months ago, I only joined this discussion relatively recently.

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You know... it's like

Spoiler for Final Fantasy X and X-2:
Spoiler for Final Fantasy X-2:
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I won't buy that Beatrice "died" just because Yasu was sick of playing that part, considering all that. And even less I can buy that it was just a what if scenario or a troll.

That scene is beautiful and emotionally overwhelming. But it sounds just like a joke or a big wtf if in the end the person behind Beatrice is safe and sound.
You call it a joke if Yasu is actually safe, but if you think like Yasu then Beatrice's death is serious business regardless. That's just the thing: I think that we're supposed to view Umineko without the assumption of "reality" being more important than "fantasy". And this scene, combined with Ikuko=Yasu, actually creates an interesting and ironic situation where the love story ended tragically in the fantasy world, but somehow kind of worked out in the real world.

In any case Gohda is still dead so it's not exactly what I'd call a happy ending.
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Old 2011-11-22, 13:33   Link #25865
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I can only guess what ghosterika is. Having first read all of Umineko from start to finish only a few months ago, I only joined this discussion relatively recently.
If I recall, I think it's similar or equivalent to Erika-Ball theory; where Erika is deceased or otherwise nonexistent, and her character only acts by possessing a piece, thereby not really effecting the board. 'Erika' is thus a title for a piece that is doing her will. For example, perhaps it was Jessica who was trying to find Battler in the room he was hiding in.
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Old 2011-11-22, 13:51   Link #25866
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If I recall, I think it's similar or equivalent to Erika-Ball theory; where Erika is deceased or otherwise nonexistent, and her character only acts by possessing a piece, thereby not really effecting the board. 'Erika' is thus a title for a piece that is doing her will. For example, perhaps it was Jessica who was trying to find Battler in the room he was hiding in.
IIRC there were some different nuances to it compared to Erika Ball, but that was the basic idea. I don't remember the details exactly, but a lot of the arguments for it ended up being folded into Author Theory.

Man, that whole debate spawned some fun logic error solutions though. I still need to incorporate that "except for one location" loophole into a forgery somehow.
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Old 2011-11-22, 15:08   Link #25867
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I think you were missing the simple point I was trying to make.
It's not about trying to figure out the entire truth concerning that massacre, and you might indeed be right anyway that Kinzo is definitively to blame concerning it (if you want the most suspicious part, I'd say it's that Kinzo somehow was able to tell us about the dud).
However I'm simply saying that "the story he told us concerning it" is not a story where we can find a definite "culprit" when accepted as such.
It was said in reply to the comparison with Rokkenjima Prime, and I was simply using it to show that "a situation where everyone dies without a definite culprit is indeed possible, at least theoretically".
If you want a much simpler and smaller example, take only the two japanese soldiers who shot each other out of fear that the other was an enemy due to the situation.
We're talking about a theoretical scenario leading to a massacre, not about what actually happened whenever, wherever.
Yes, but that claim of yours misses the point that we can't just write off that incident as a matter of course, especially when additional information exists. And additional information does exist, in the person of Touya/Battler (and possibly Ikuko), in Ange, and in Eva's account. All information to which we were not given proper access, and to which it's quite clear the world of R-Prime at large was not given proper access (bearing in mind, of course, that R-Prime actually possesses certain information we don't).

So even if you were right, we can refine the point and pare down the uncertainty to the point that we could at least exculpate certain people. It's simply impossible that the circumstances would be otherwise.

There's also the fact that we don't know if Battler and Eva's (and, if Yasu, Ikuko's) accounts contradict. If they do, we've got a whole new angle on things we've not been allowed to have. Indeed, the contradictions may be the only way to get ourselves closer to the truth.

Granted, we could argue that Touya has told us the best that he can what he actually remembers at each given point, at least until ep6, and then we don't know what his actual writings even say in total anymore. Dumb as amnesia of that sort is, if he actually has it and has a new personality I can't blame him if he isn't 100% accurate on what Battler knew, and he's done more to share it than anyone else seems to have. The problem being that it's not enough by itself... and he has some small measure of control over that. But it's Ange who has the most in the end, and it's Ange who behaves the most selfishly.
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Old 2011-11-22, 15:15   Link #25868
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I've been trying to put together Ange from 1998's journey, but there's been one thing which has constantly illuded me. And as such, i'm wondering if it's a a spoiler for Episode 6 or 8 which I missed.

Spoiler:


My guess would be that it's something to do with the "mini golden land"...but anyone who knows, it would be appreciated :b
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Old 2011-11-22, 15:26   Link #25869
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Its a bag full of Sakutarous. Yes, thats what makes Ange have an emotional breakdown that makes her understand the nature of magic. ^^
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Old 2011-11-22, 16:17   Link #25870
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Oh guys, I just realized something about the Red Truth and Golden Truth. I looked at the list of Red Truths and realized that there were two kinds of Red Truths: Facts and Rules. For example, Battler and Kanon are different people is a fact, but everything [Beatrice] speaks in red is the truth is a rule.

So with that intrepretation, Dlanor's rule against making theories based off of the other window makes a little more sense. Then, there's the fact that Dlanor can't make reds without a fact to base them on, so she didn't pull it out her butt. Assuming that Red Truth is given as a rule only by the Game Master, then Dlanor had to get her rule from Lambda.

Now, for the Golden Truth, after taking in the assumption that most of the Meta- scenes were representing Ikuko and Battler's attempts to gain back his memory, I think Battler's Golden Truth about Kinzo's corpse was him remembering Kinzo's corpse being burnt, which explains why it was stronger than the Red Truth at the time.
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Old 2011-11-22, 17:09   Link #25871
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
That is something I kept wondering myself while re-reading EP 4 too...I think based on a scene in EP 7, it is entirely possible that Kinzo plan that massacre to trap Beatrice. It also makes us question the version of the story told by Kinzo earlier too.

Could I ask more? If the (c) option means killing everyone to grasp the gold and Beatrice, what is the other two possibly means? The rule is when one option is chosen, the other two would be destroyed. What does it means by "choosing himself" aka commiting suicide in the (a) option? Will Beatrice and "everybody else" survive? If that is the case, does it mean Kinzo hold a bigger responsibility in the massacre that just suggesting it? And how would the situation have changed if Kinzo had chosen (b), to sacrifice his love?

Sorry I'm not sure whether it had been discussed before, but this thread is getting insanely huge.
There are several speculations that can be made. One thing that I entertain myself with is the idea that the granade failed because Kinzo disarmed it.

Under this perspective I assume that the japanese would never try to put up a fight against the italians because they'd risk to die in the process. But what if they could kill them all in a single strike? Then maybe they would like the idea better. If Kinzo really was capable of orchestrating a massacre he could have been the one who suggested to use the grenade once they italians were gathered all in one place, and at the same time be the one who make it so it wouldn't go off. After that the battle would ensue for sure. It's not like anyone would have the chance to talk the other party into it, especially because they couldn't communicate at all.

As for option a) and b) it might make sense if Kinzo was imagining that eventually italians and japanese would fight anyway. In that scenario if the italians won... he'd die, if the japanese won, Beatrice would die. Still it's not like "everyone else" would be safe, but at a least some of them would survive. Kinzo had to make it so all parties would be annihilated in order to survive with Beatrice.

Another interpretation is that "sacrifice" doesn't necessarily entails actual death. So Kinzo by doing nothing he'd just "sacrifice" himself by returning to a life that to him was very much alike death. Sacrificing Beatrice would mean to lose her forever. Though it doesn't really work because in this case it's either sacrifice c to save a and b or sacrifice a and b to save c.


About ghosterika and Erika ball theory. I think the only difference was that Erika had a set piece which she used as her "avatar" in the ghosterika, while she could jump to whatever piece she pleased in the Erika ball theory (hence the name: whoever has the "Erika ball" is Erika).

The Erika ball theory had the advantage of being extremely versatile, it was extremely difficult to prove its inconsistency regarding "Erika" position in the gameboard.
The ghoesterika theory had the advantage of being a lot less ridiculous.
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Old 2011-11-22, 18:35   Link #25872
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are several speculations that can be made. One thing that I entertain myself with is the idea that the granade failed because Kinzo disarmed it.
Random idea that I got after reading what you wrote.
What if Kinzo also hoped in a miracle?
In short he set Japanese and Italian one against the other.
If they were all to die apart from him and Beatrice he would get his miracle.
It's possible he planned to kill himself if Beato were to die.

Umineko had lot of fun playing on the parallelism between Yasu & Battler and Kinzo and Beato... so maybe Kinzo also played a 'murder game' of some sort.

Though I doubt we'll ever get an answer on what exactly happened in the military base.

It might be this idea is wrong and not even Kinzo knows it exactly as he wasn't in charge of the Japanese so he couldn't have ordered the attack. In Kinzo's version it seems the attack was ordered by the Japanese commander but in the flashback he was against it so it's possible the attack was planned by a third person (let's assume the second in command), who randomly heard Kinzo suggesting this plan and didn't bother to inform Kinzo or the commander (maybe he thought in the chaos that would ensue he could off the commander as well and replace him).

Just to toss in a possible version... though there are other possible explanations (the commander changed his mind, Kinzo persuaded a bunch of soldiers to attack) that might have Kinzo directly responsible or innocent.

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As for the stuff about everyone killing everyone else. I remember after reading EP1 that I thought it would most likely be like the 'C' ending of Clue; where it makes more sense that everyone had their little share of killing. Even Mr. Boddy. 8) (Who was only pretending to be a servant by the way, so he could be the true culprit.)
Well, the 'multiple culprits' isn't a bad theory... I personally like it quite a bit... the problem is that it's hard to turn it into an 'everyone was a culprit', especially when you involve the servants who really apparently didn't have that many reasons to kill the others (self defence at best as neither of them is portrayed as greedy).

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Oops! Maybe it would've been better if I said that they were 'loving' mothers. But at the same time, Rosa was a neglectful mother. At this point, some people fall in the trap of trying to decide whether Rosa was a good mother or a bad mother. Or whether she was a good person or bad person. I'm thinking Umineko, like Higurashi before, wants us to think of 'good deeds' and 'bad deeds.' And that Rosa, and many of the other characters have both.

Even poor Gouda had his good and bad moments. 8)
Well, as a person Rosa likely had her up and down sides... but as a mother I can't help but consider her abusive unless Umineko presented a exaggerate view of Maria's punishments.

Undoubtely Rosa is presented as a character that HAS serious issues on her own. Likely her youth hadn't been easy, she had to face the trauma of seeing Beato 2 die and beliving she was responsible, her loved one basically left her on her own devices... so I understand her drama.

... but still Maria doesn't deserve to be beaten up so hard.

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I think we all agree that characterization was over the top. The only thing it made me think though is that perhaps even Kyrie has a bad side to her, though not in the way EP7 describes.

See, everyone seems to have a good and bad side.... Kinzo, Kyrie, Eva, Rosa, Rudolf, Krauss (although his is maybe an 'incompetent side'). Etc., etc. Maybe only Battler didn't have a bad side in the stories because he was the target of Yasu's affections. Besides being incompetent, that is.
Well, EP 4 & 6 hinted that her bad side was her jealousy/hate for Asumu, which was so big she wanted to kill Asumu and that she kept on feeling it even after Asumu died, made hard for her to get along with Battler and so on.

I would find acceptable if she were to kill... let's say Natsuhi, because she were to think Rudolf slept with her, and Battler because she can't get over the fact that he's Asumu's son. It's killing everyone else in such a cold way and saying so horrible things about Ange as well as not showing pain for Rudolf's death that leaves me feeling the characterization was wrong.

There's a difference between a woman that's mad with jealousy and a greedy coold blooded murderer.

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Well, I was thinking about Shannon. If you figured out she hid her gun behind the wardrobe after her suicide in EP2, it would've totally exposed her. (Based on the suicide trick in And Then There Were None.) But there's no way Ryukishi would've let it leak out so early, so the *only* clue we had was that there was a dresser in the room.
Which, I guess, it was pretty normal. There's a dresser in my room also...

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Anyways, Yasu seems to segment her feelings onto different personas. So collectively she loved all the cousins, but at the same time, what he seems to be saying is that she's capable of advancing her own plans despite being in the Shannon costume. So, another example of both good and bad in a person?
Hum... I still find hard to believe she loved them but was capable to plan their murder and then kill them in cold blood... unless she was insane. In that case for her it would probably make sense.
Otherwise a normal person in a normal situation don't aim at killing the ones she loves...

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That is something I kept wondering myself while re-reading EP 4 too...I think based on a scene in EP 7, it is entirely possible that Kinzo plan that massacre to trap Beatrice. It also makes us question the version of the story told by Kinzo earlier too.
Maybe in that case 'to sacrifice your loved one' would mean to give up on that person, not to kill her litterally.
Assuming that Kinzo is the one that caused the fight between Italians and Japanese, if prior to it, he were to sacrifice his feeling for Beato, it's possible he wouldn't have caused the fight, ergo saving his own soul from this crime (saving himself) and the Japanese and Italians as they wouldn't kill each other.

Same if he were to chose to commit suicide or to 'kill that part of himself that became alive thanks to the meeting with Beatrice and wanted to keep Beatrice for himself'. For Kinzo this could mean to go back on being a puppet but again would save everyone else.

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Beatrice was already pregnant by her lover, one of the officers in the submarine. Kinzo would never kill Beatrice, so he has two options: Suicide or kill everyone else and entrap Beatrice. Takes option two, Beatrice then dies while giving birth. Kinzo blames the child and distances himself from her. His reason for living now dead he takes over Rokkenjima and builds the device for the its destruction. Eventually as time passes Kinzo sees her more and more like the first one and falls for her.

There, an option where Kinzo is still crazy but it doesn't have rape in it. But now it has mass murder by his own hands.
I like your theory... but wasn't confirmed somewhere than Beato 2 is Kinzo's biological daughter and not just his adopted daughter?

Though call me cruel but I like the idea of Beato never loving him and his being a one sided crush... :P

Last edited by jjblue1; 2011-11-22 at 19:52.
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Old 2011-11-22, 19:38   Link #25873
Cao Ni Ma
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Maybe in that case 'to sacrifice your loved one' would mean to give up on that person, not to kill her litterally.
My initial interpretation of EP4s game was basically this. It never really was about killing any other person other than yourself if you took that option. Your family would never accept a servant as your mate so it comes down to choosing the love interest and abandoning the family or choosing the family and abandoning your lover. Of course if this was too difficult of a choice you can always kill yourself. Trying to convince your family to accept the servant is of course, completely futile.

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I like your theory... but wasn't confirmed somewhere than Beato 2 is Kinzo's biological daughter and not just his adopted daughter?

Though call me cruel but I like the idea of Beato never loving him and his being a one sided crush... :P
I dont know... was it? Ever since EP6 I had a feeling that Battler and Chick Beatrice where playing out what really happened with Kinzo and Beatrice 2. That Battler never considered her his daughter and that he initially disliked her. I found EP7s scene with Kinzo and Will interesting as well, some parts just felt off.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-11-22 at 19:51.
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:00   Link #25874
Renall
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I think the whole "hoping in a miracle" thing is pretty absurd without some attempt to back it up with the effort needed to nudge things your way.

I don't think Kinzo would've just hoped that maybe, just maybe, the other Japanese and Italians would kill each other off leaving him and Beatrice unharmed. Indeed, Kinzo's own story doesn't really suggest this; if nothing else, in his account he tried to be with her and protect her. That's certainly not just leaving it up to fate.

If he's willing to take that step to make sure things happen, why not take others?
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Old 2011-11-22, 20:51   Link #25875
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Another interpretation is that "sacrifice" doesn't necessarily entails actual death. So Kinzo by doing nothing he'd just "sacrifice" himself by returning to a life that to him was very much alike death. Sacrificing Beatrice would mean to lose her forever. Though it doesn't really work because in this case it's either sacrifice c to save a and b or sacrifice a and b to save c.
Thank you. It doesn’t really fit, but actually it is an interesting way to view the incident.

The reason I kept wondering about what actually happened in the base due to the undeniable link between Batter/Yasu and Kinzo/Beatrice in the narratives, therefore, there should be some link between what happened in Rockenjima in WW2 and during that two days. I just think maybe Battler or somebody initated the incidents and things just went wrong from there.

And greed and paranoid may be indeed the main motive for everyone, even though it is kinda boring and exagerated somehow

Quote:
I would find acceptable if she were to kill... let's say Natsuhi, because she were to think Rudolf slept with her, and Battler because she can't get over the fact that he's Asumu's son. It's killing everyone else in such a cold way and saying so horrible things about Ange as well as not showing pain for Rudolf's death that leaves me feeling the characterization was wrong.
I think it has been brought up somewhere in that topic, that what we saw in EP7 was just Eva’s point of view about Kyrie at best. Maybe Kyrie was just playing some mindgame to ensure Ange’s safety when she knew she could not survive. It would not be out of character for Kyrie for this, and Ryukishi loved unreliable view point a lot (Higurashi Onikakushi-hen)

Quote:
I think the whole "hoping in a miracle" thing is pretty absurd without some attempt to back it up with the effort needed to nudge things your way.
Well, as far as I remembered, Kinzo already said in EP4 that it is not important which one you chooses in the trial, but whether you have the guts to cling to it. It is just Toya’s depiction of Kinzo, right….(I am really confused about this meta-meta thing) So yeah, such a guy will not leave everything to hope anyways.

One more question about the incident: How could anybody knows about the submarine incident (Toya to foreshadowing EP 4 and whoever writes that EP7?). I could just bring some theory on my own, which is not so satisfying

(a) Kinzo has told somebody before he died and which the Rockenjima explosion, the information get out to public
(b) It’s entirely fabricated from the information the Witch Hunter or whoever wrote EP7 could dig up about the Rockenjima millitary base. Which I felt unlikely, as the island and the information about it is sealed off after the incident.

On side note, as this thread is getting very big, people who just completed EP8 will find it hard to browse throught it for several theory...So could we made some thread to summarize the main theories? (Shkanon, ghost Erika, evil genius Battler...) or some Q-A section like the Higurashi thread? Much as I like reading your guys' post, it is very hard to follow sometimes...
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Old 2011-11-23, 00:26   Link #25876
Renall
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Just in very brief:

Rokkenjima-Prime: Term for the "real world" of the Umineko universe. Although we aren't 100% sure if we've ever seen it, it appears that certain facts apply to this universe, such as "Eva and Battler survived the incident," "Battler became Hachijou Touya," and "Ange went on a search for the truth in some fashion." However on a fundamental level R-Prime is just the idea that there is a top-level reality in the Umineko universe, whether we've seen it or not.

"True" Culprit: The person who actually caused the disaster in Rokkenjima-Prime, assuming there was a disaster there and assuming any one person was responsible for it. This is to distinguish from the culprits in the various episode stories, which are almost always intended to be "Beatrice." Whether "Beatrice's" R-Prime representation ("Yasu," possibly) was the "true" culprit is something we don't know and that Ryukishi dances around, although some people believe she wasn't. If she wasn't though, there's a million theories as to who was and why.

Author Theory: At its base level, the idea that the various Rokkenjima stories were actual fictional stories written by someone (presumably in the R-Prime universe). On a deeper level it affects views of the Meta-World and how the various rules of the stories work, but there are many views on this. Note that this was all but confirmed from ep6 on and ep8 makes it appear to be blatantly and indisputibly true... but like Shkanon, the exact form it takes is subject to discussion.

Shkanon: The notion that Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice can trade off in some way. Has too many variants to list but is in some form or fashion true in the ep1-4 stories.

Ghosterika/Erika Ball: Mentioned above. I won't get into it.

Genius Battler: A specific theory advanced in ep6 that applies only to that episode. It posits that the Logic Error was intentionally engineered by Battler and that he fell into Erika's "trap" not because she actually outwitted him, but because he allowed her to trap him. His reason for doing this was to motivate Beatrice to save him, which she could only do if he were placed in a situation that was completely inescapable without understanding Shkanon, which Beatrice eventually did. This theory doesn't apply to the narrative of any other episode.

Evil Battler/Battler Culprit: The idea that Battler for whatever reason was the culprit in Rokkenjima-Prime, and Touya is horrified when he begins to suspect this. There are way too many variants on this to go into in brief though. Ryukishi teased at the idea in a recently-released extra TIP, and the idea was also visited in ep7 and ep8.

Kinzotrice: A joke theory based on the notion that red is unreliable (something which has become apparently more true now that ep8 is out); thus, even though Kinzo has been said in red to be dead from the very beginning, that red is unreliable and therefore Kinzo himself could be "Beatrice" and have engineered the entire disaster by himself. This theory is not serious; it was initially designed to illustrate the absurdity of allowing terms like "dead" to have different definitions than ordinarily assumed. Now it's used mostly to criticize Ryukishi's apparent twisting of the red (as confirmed in ep8) to do exactly that, suggesting that if his particular conclusion is true, any absurd theory (such as Kinzo being Beatrice) could also be true under the red text available. At its core I guess you could say it's "red text is meaningless."
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
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Old 2011-11-23, 00:31   Link #25877
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I might be completely wrong but I got the feeling that Shannon and Kanon's personas' logic works closer to being a good writer.
Basically "Yasu" is making them do the decisions that a writer would make their characters do while keeping in their mindset.
By the way, just something I noticed, further to your idea.

Notice how everyone else, i.e. Rosa, Eva, Kyrie, etc... they tend to deal with their problems as one whole entity. They don't slot their feelings or problems into different personalities. However...

Notice that Maria and Yasu tend to deal with their problems by pretending some actions or emotions are part of a different entity. In Maria's case, she keeps saying when Rosa hits her that it wasn't the REAL Rosa/Mother, but the Black Witch. In other words she divides up Rosa into two different people because she can't deal with why Rosa loves her, yet is so cruel to her. Something like that.

Now Yasu does the same thing but to her own emotions, hopes and fears. Shannon is the perfect, loving servant. Kanon is her depressing thoughts. And Beatrice is her escape from reality. And then she dumps Shannon's love onto Beatrice. etc.

Do you get the feeling Yasu's maturity is somewhat stunted by this comparison to Maria?


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the 'multiple culprits' isn't a bad theory... I personally like it quite a bit... the problem is that it's hard to turn it into an 'everyone was a culprit', especially when you involve the servants who really apparently didn't have that many reasons to kill the others (self defence at best as neither of them is portrayed as greedy).
I'm still undecided about the servants. Like how far they were willing to go. On one hand you have Genji colluding with the Epitaph Game; which is decidedly supposed to be of the non-murderous variety. You also have him co-operating with some serious lies about Nanjo and Kumasawa being killed by Kanon in EP2. Maybe when he saw that those bodies were really dead did he finally realize he had been tricked?

But at the same time, Maria said Kumasawa said that she didn't really want to die at the end of EP1. What I just described may not really get into it, but I thought Kumasawa and the others were fully aware that they were going to be killed now and only she was complaining about not really liking that. So does that mean the other two were quite willing? Or was it really just that they were tricked until the last minute? (Maybe that's the more likely scenario as a gun was clearly in play at the moment.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, EP 4 & 6 hinted that her bad side was her jealousy/hate for Asumu, which was so big she wanted to kill Asumu and that she kept on feeling it even after Asumu died, made hard for her to get along with Battler and so on.

I would find acceptable if she were to kill... let's say Natsuhi, because she were to think Rudolf slept with her, and Battler because she can't get over the fact that he's Asumu's son. It's killing everyone else in such a cold way and saying so horrible things about Ange as well as not showing pain for Rudolf's death that leaves me feeling the characterization was wrong.

There's a difference between a woman that's mad with jealousy and a greedy coold blooded murderer.
I had forgotten about the jealousy thing, although I'm not sure if that was what was triggered if she had any thoughts of killing people. Since, there's no hint of Rudolf have any kind of improper relations with any one else on the island. (Aside from one awesome Natsuhi-Groping-Video from the voice drama project. )

I think EP7 may have hit on something. I think if she were to kill it's because she 'calculated' that the need to kill was there. Remember how back in EP1 she explained chessboard thinking to Battler? I can't remember the specifics, but it seems like her character is one where she anticipates the moves of her enemies and acts before they can. I think I remember her talking about using 'chessboard thinking' against her business enemies. Although she admitted herself that it wasn't applicable in all situations.

So basically, she is one of the smartest people on the island; she seems to be one to draw things to a 'logical' conclusion. So like EP7 showed, maybe she really did calculate the point that 'everything's all going to hell.' Of course her motivation isn't, "the rules of civility have all been released, happy fun murder time!" but more maybe, "the rules of civility have all been released, I need to defend the ones I care about the most, with whatever means."

I view this sort of behavior as a mistake, of course. But it's true that some people think this way. The right to survive triumphs over all?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Which, I guess, it was pretty normal. There's a dresser in my room also...
I'm thinking the real clue was supposed to be in EP4 and the real confirmation in EP7... but I only noticed it now. (Apologies to anyone else who may have already posted about this.)

So, about Shannon hiding the gun behind the dresser... I was saying this in another post that it's mostly some kind of a hand gun that she used. And that means in all episodes there is a hand gun in play. And I think in EP4, it's supposed to be the first clue that it's a revolver of some kind. Remember the shooting scene at the beginning of EP4, where 'Kinzo' walks in and shoots 6 people randomly? Well...

In EP7, we're shown quite clearly that the Sawed-off Winchester M-1894 that they were using:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP1 Tips
It can employ up to .45 long-colt bullets, just as Kinzo likes it. The number of rounds is 4+1 shots.
That is only 5 bullets. I think the EP4 scene was supposed to show another gun with 6 bullets. Which is why I guess a revolver. I suppose a 30-bullet fully automatic Glock 17 works too, but I assume Kinzo was also interested in 1800-era revolvers too. Also, it was a revolver in And Then There Were None too, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

So the cool thing is that there's a definite hand gun in possession of Shkannon. That explains a lot of the murders that she should have done. The suicide shot from George's back into herself... or even Nanjo at the end of EP3. And of course the wild shooting at the end of EP4 too, with the final shot dumping the gun into the grating.

I bet most of the murders were done with this gun now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Hum... I still find hard to believe she loved them but was capable to plan their murder and then kill them in cold blood... unless she was insane. In that case for her it would probably make sense.
Otherwise a normal person in a normal situation don't aim at killing the ones she loves...
I'm guessing Ryukishi was aiming for a crime of passion some how. Whether this was effective, is not for me to say. But crime of passions things are supposed to be nearly these 'temporary insanity' things, right? At first I was thinking, no way, because how could she plan all this if she was 'temporarily insane?' But then I realized, EP1-2 are basically her fantasies.

Is it possible that these stories of meeting with Battler again and challenging him again and murdering the entire family are her fantasies? Because on Rokkenjima Prime itself, we don't really have evidence of anything happening other than the bomb. Deciding to suddenly throw the switch and kill everyone with that should qualify as temporary insanity and a crime of passion, right? A crime where she's hung up on one thing only and neglects to think about anyone or anything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are several speculations that can be made. One thing that I entertain myself with is the idea that the granade failed because Kinzo disarmed it.
You know, when I was reading this, I started to get suspicious about the story just like you were. I think the red blood scenes at the end where Yasu was shown to not be as happy as her story described made me think the same thing about Kinzo's story. I got the feeling that once again, Ryukishi purposely wrote these nebulous stories that have difficult interpretations. Was Kinzo innocent? Was he guilty? Was Yasu happy? Was Yasu driven to insanity? It started giving me a headache...

Of course, I think EP8 made it clear that it was probably both... or at least, that's the way I think about people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
On side note, as this thread is getting very big, people who just completed EP8 will find it hard to browse throught it for several theory...So could we made some thread to summarize the main theories? (Shkanon, ghost Erika, evil genius Battler...) or some Q-A section like the Higurashi thread? Much as I like reading your guys' post, it is very hard to follow sometimes...
I have a few in my signature link, although most of the stuff has been confirmed one way or the other already and aren't that much useful any more. Although even though it's been confirmed, there are still some new people asking about this stuff.

Also, Judoh had a great post on the suspicious things George has done or said. It used to be in his signature link... but it's been missing lately. Judoh, I think that post is still quite relevant... do you still have it?

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-11-23 at 01:16.
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Old 2011-11-23, 01:48   Link #25878
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
One more question about the incident: How could anybody knows about the submarine incident (Toya to foreshadowing EP 4 and whoever writes that EP7?). I could just bring some theory on my own, which is not so satisfying

(a) Kinzo has told somebody before he died and which the Rockenjima explosion, the information get out to public
(b) Itís entirely fabricated from the information the Witch Hunter or whoever wrote EP7 could dig up about the Rockenjima millitary base. Which I felt unlikely, as the island and the information about it is sealed off after the incident.
Yet another case where Ikuko=Yasu makes the answer a lot easier. It wouldn't be strange that GENSAWAJO would know about Kinzo's past, and through them Yasu could easily have found out too.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I'm still undecided about the servants. Like how far they were willing to go. On one hand you have Genji colluding with the Epitaph Game; which is decidedly supposed to be of the non-murderous variety. You also have him co-operating with some serious lies about Nanjo and Kumasawa being killed by Kanon in EP2. Maybe when he saw that those bodies were really dead did he finally realize he had been tricked?
I think that Yasu's allies vary by episode, not just the "Keys".

In episode 1 there's no clear evidence that Kumasawa was in on the murders. In episode 2 there's nothing to suggest that Kumasawa or Nanjo were in on them. In episode 3 Kumasawa's fantasy double resisted Beatrice's attempt to kill her. And who knows what Nanjo was thinking or doing in episode 3. And in the first 4 episodes Gohda was twice killed on the first twilight was twice Yasu's ally.

As for Genji in episode 2, this brings up something that has perplexed me for some time now: What is with the part where Genji knifes the golden butterfly? I always thought that scene symbolized some kind of antagonism between him and Beatrice, but that idea was never suggested anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So the cool thing is that there's a definite hand gun in possession of Shkannon. That explains a lot of the murders that she should have done. The suicide shot from George's back into herself... or even Nanjo at the end of EP3. And of course the wild shooting at the end of EP4 too, with the final shot dumping the gun into the grating.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you'll have to explain to me how Yasu is supposed to commit murder-suicide with George and then get up and go kill Nanjo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I have a few in my signature link, although most of the stuff has been confirmed one way or the other already and aren't that much useful any more. Although even though it's been confirmed, there are still some new people asking about this stuff.
Actually, I have to thank you for your Translator Aggregator link. If it weren't for that link I wouldn't have read the second half of episode 8 by now.
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Old 2011-11-23, 02:16   Link #25879
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Also, Judoh had a great post on the suspicious things George has done or said. It used to be in his signature link... but it's been missing lately. Judoh, I think that post is still quite relevant... do you still have it?
It's still in my signature. I've just been hiding it. But I'll leave it up this time for you :3
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Old 2011-11-23, 02:48   Link #25880
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I think that Yasu's allies vary by episode, not just the "Keys".

In episode 1 there's no clear evidence that Kumasawa was in on the murders. In episode 2 there's nothing to suggest that Kumasawa or Nanjo were in on them. In episode 3 Kumasawa's fantasy double resisted Beatrice's attempt to kill her. And who knows what Nanjo was thinking or doing in episode 3. And in the first 4 episodes Gohda was twice killed on the first twilight was twice Yasu's ally.

As for Genji in episode 2, this brings up something that has perplexed me for some time now: What is with the part where Genji knifes the golden butterfly? I always thought that scene symbolized some kind of antagonism between him and Beatrice, but that idea was never suggested anywhere else.
Do you think maybe this is the point where Yasu estimates Genji would have 'figured things out?' Because he didn't seem to be all that surprised when he found Nanjo and Kumasawa's bodies. I guess he went searching for the bodies *because* he figured it out at this point.

I guess it's an estimation by the author of how far the can string the servants along, just like the siblings. And that they too may turn on the whole plan.

The only thing that sticks out to me is; didn't anyone get suspicious after EP1's first twilight? Is it really possible to convince people that real bodies with half ripped off faces were fake? Even though this is fiction... so the argument is, did Yasu really believe this was believable? Ok, maybe everyone else was convinced it was a fake, but Nanjo must have noticed something.

I suppose it's possible for her to actually prepare 18 fake dead bodies and show them that they'll be swapped for those. And then ACTUALLY commit the murders, but not really swap bodies... hm.. 1980's make-up technology though... I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but you'll have to explain to me how Yasu is supposed to commit murder-suicide with George and then get up and go kill Nanjo.
Well, you see... this is... oh.. uhh... look at the time. 8) I gotta go. YOINK

That's a good point; I lost track of the episodes. I guess the magic scene showed them committing a love suicide but when Eva found him... did they find them together? I guess if Shannon's body hadn't gone missing then she wasn't really dead yet. So I guess she just shot him and planned to kill herself much later. Same with EP2; she must have shot George first before shooting herself a second time since she needed to hide the revolver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Actually, I have to thank you for your Translator Aggregator link. If it weren't for that link I wouldn't have read the second half of episode 8 by now.
I can't imagine being stuck on only 50%... it would've been so painful. 8) I need to update it again as someone in the Translations thread suggested to use a different text hooker now.
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