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Old 2011-11-25, 20:42   Link #25941
Renall
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I could be wrong but I don't think electronic detonators existed until around the time the US was involved in Vietnam. However, it's trivial to get a clock to send an electrical pulse as long as you have the mechanisms complete a circuit. How Kinzo did it isn't that important as long as he can send an electrical signal to a detonator.

Having said that, I don't get Jan-Poo's point about it needing to be exactly midnight. It's never exactly midnight. Midnight is largely arbitrary. If most of the island thought it was 00:00 and it just so happened one clock was off by a few minutes, who cares? Besides, it's a fiction; we don't actually know the exact moment of detonation in R-Prime.
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Old 2011-11-25, 22:57   Link #25942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Having said that, I don't get Jan-Poo's point about it needing to be exactly midnight. It's never exactly midnight. Midnight is largely arbitrary. If most of the island thought it was 00:00 and it just so happened one clock was off by a few minutes, who cares? Besides, it's a fiction; we don't actually know the exact moment of detonation in R-Prime.
That's what you keep not understanding, we know the exact moment of detonation, or at least it was made known in the story.

Quote:
Because of the massive size of the Rokkenjima Explosion Accident, the time the explosion occurred was known almost exactly, down to the minute.
The time was... October 5, 24:00.
I'm not saying that it "needs" to be exactly midninght for whatever reason, I'm saying that it is explicitly said that it was exactly midnight with an error of seconds at best. And if we accept this scenario as true (and I see why not) then the idea of a more reliable clock than a simple grandfather clock becomes more logical.

You should have understood what I meant by my last post, if my english is that bad please tell me where it wasn't clear.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:02   Link #25943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post



Nothing in Episode 5 makes sense. If there is a "truth" it's well hidden under several blankets of falsehoods. You can't even be sure that Erika was there at all. Considering how Ryuukishi dealt with the issue of people numbers in EP3 and EP6, the red truths aren't worth a dime in this case.
Does this really work? I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong but...would they honestly do that? I mean, what I got from this was

''Ep 5 was made by monkeys''.

I mean, can this really work? Can Erika listen to Battler's breathing all night, not notice the others breathing, then feel stumped when Battler claims he could have killed him after his scream? Is the only way to explain it ''Ryukishi didn't think that far''? This seems like a serious slip, if Erika could honestly elevate Battler's status to red truth(even if that's worthless?) based on her testimony of hearing his breathing, we should assume that she could have heard at least the other cousins breathing....

This...I just don't get this.
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Old 2011-11-25, 23:12   Link #25944
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Does it make sense that Erika improvised alchemical analysis of footprints and dirt to reach the status of red truth about Genji's room, using the stuff she found in Kinzo's room? Because that's what she said.

I see only two possible scenario here. Either Erika actually did all the things she claimed she did in Ep5 (and the story would lose any chance of any plausible realism), or Erika didn't do the things that she claim she's done; the story actually developed differently and most of what we saw and what she claims never happened.

This second possibility branches even further in how the red truths were dealt with:

Either Erika used a more credible method to reach her red truths (and for some reasons she didn't tell), or Erika received hose red truths from some other source (which can be some unfair power granted to her by Bernkastel, or from Lambdadelta herself who was in league with Bernkastel for some reasons).
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Old 2011-11-26, 00:12   Link #25945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I could be wrong but I don't think electronic detonators existed until around the time the US was involved in Vietnam. However, it's trivial to get a clock to send an electrical pulse as long as you have the mechanisms complete a circuit. How Kinzo did it isn't that important as long as he can send an electrical signal to a detonator.
Just for the technical elements.
An electrical detonator, like the ones used in nuclear bombs, should suffice to activate the bomb at a rather precise moment in time. There were some who were invented especially for the purpose of having a short time to the actual explosion.
Digital clocks were invented pretty early, the first patents came around the 50's, but there are also some classical clocks which were able to measure a 24 hour system, so it's not completely unlikely for the clockwork to be able to do that.
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Old 2011-11-26, 02:23   Link #25946
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
[Erika hearing Battler's breathing but no one else's]
This...I just don't get this.
Between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM Rosa and the cousins hid in another upstairs room of the guesthouse. Battler entered an empty cousins' room at 3:00AM and slept there by himself until morning. Meanwhile, after Erika had put her ear to the cousins' room and was listening to Battler sleep by himself, Rosa and the cousins quietly left the room they were hiding in and sneaked out of the guesthouse.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-26 at 02:34.
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Old 2011-11-26, 04:31   Link #25947
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oh and . lol . is erika a lesbian? xD
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Old 2011-11-26, 07:00   Link #25948
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM Rosa and the cousins hid in another upstairs room of the guesthouse. Battler entered an empty cousins' room at 3:00AM and slept there by himself until morning. Meanwhile, after Erika had put her ear to the cousins' room and was listening to Battler sleep by himself, Rosa and the cousins quietly left the room they were hiding in and sneaked out of the guesthouse.
Everyone else was inside the room when they found them though? Are you saying that they where never there to begin with? Considering Erika's close proximity, she would have been the first one to go inside the room after Battler yelled.

About detonators, yes they did exist before the 1940s. So they could easily use some for the mechanism.
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Old 2011-11-26, 08:53   Link #25949
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These quotes are a few pages back but anyway...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I doubt that what people are having difficulties to is to understand why a disturbed girl under stress would have murderous fantasies (as long as they are fantasies and not ideations). I think anyone can understand that, you don't need to have fallen in love for that or any kind of particular experience.

I don't know if you get what I mean, but if it was as you say Ryuukishi would whine that people are misunderstanding his story or jumping to conlcusions.

He knows that people have difficulties at accept something, and we know that that something that people have difficulties to accept is that a person would kill for love and not that a person would write a story about killing someone. And he says that it is sad that people cannot accept that and that if they loved they would.
This sounds right, until we compare it to Ange's reaction.
If the truth Ange learned is that Sayo Yasuda is the one who murdered their entire family well I really don't get her reaction. Not to mention I really wouldn't get why would Eva protect her from the truth. It's not even "weird" but rather totally random.
I guess it could be possible to reason it given a very specific scenario, it's probably something supporters of Yasu murderer in prime should try to explain.


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You can't just give up on it. What kind of Justice would that be?

It's probable that we'll never fully comprehend all mysteries and truths of science. There are areas of biology and geology that have been apparently settled for ages, then somebody discovers something new because they kept looking. Should they give up?
In science we have means of constantly learning more knowledge however. Or at the very least in some case the hope that we will end up with new ways to gather information that will thus provide new information. It's a quest that constantly pays off in that sense.

Quote:
And that aside, it may not be as impossible as it sounds to actually know the truth of Rokkenjima, depending on what Eva wrote down and what Touya actually remembers (and Ikuko, if she has memory of it herself). There may be far more detailed primary-source information than anyone ever expected, it's just we haven't seen it. So saying we should just give up on it becomes even more silly.

If you existed in R-Prime, you'd have the ability to see and read about things we've never been able to see. So at the very least we'd know a lot more than we do. The only reason we "can't" is because Ryukishi doesn't want to show us, and he's releasing a booklet where he's going to give us even more info so presumably we eventually "can" learn more.

It may not lead to a perfect final conclusion, but hey, gotta keep trying.
Well for now we do not exist on Rokkenjima Prime. The sense of justice you are talking about is "right" if it's an actual murder. Seeing as apparently most people including relatives don't consider it a mass-murder, it remains a strong possibility. If your sense of justice ends up digging up and exposing all the dirt of everyone in the family and the servants to end up fully having proof that it was an accident then "justice" is not desirable.
Here is such a theoretical scenario.
Thunder makes a short circuit somehow leading to the bomb exploding. Before it does at one point Eva and Battler solves the epitaph and follow the path to Kuwadorian and end up being safe while everyone else blows up.
A lot of bad stuff would have happened at the family conference (adults fighting over the inheritance and the sort of usual things we see in most arcs before the murders) and this would be why Eva doesn't want anyone to know what happened.

Now if the "our confession" booklet actually reveals what happened in Rokkenjima Prime (I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't) then...
If the solutions it brings are actually things we could have rationalized you would be entirely right that pursuing the truth of Rokkenjima Prime would be a good thing.
If the solutions it brings are things that we couldn't have ever figured out by ourselves then it would remain that all 8 arcs wouldn't have as goal to figure out "prime"
I guess that remains to be seen but for now I'm fairly certain we can't because of Will's attitude toward it.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-26 at 09:31.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:02   Link #25950
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And that's another thing that doesn't make sense. Erika was so anal about checking this and checking that and she didn't even check the corpses.

But the major problem I have with Ep5 is the issue about shkanon and the scene where everyone is in the same place.

The most logical explanation is that the scene we have seen was seen through the unreliable perspective of Battler and therefore he could see Kanon and Shannon in the same place. But there is still a problem.

This was supposed to be a game and in a game you need a "witch side" and a "human side". The human side in Ep5 is Bernkastel and her proxy Erika. Erika is also confirmed in red to be the detective, and if the rules aren't completely fucked up Erika, as the detective, should have reliable perspective, meaning that she shouldn't be able to see Shannon and Kanon in the same place at the same time.

It was said that what Battler saw was a replay of a game that was already played. So at the time Battler saw that scene where everyone was in the same place at the same time Bernkastel should have noticed a discrepancy between the two versions.

Erika in that very scene saw everyone except Kanon (or Shannon)
Battler in that very scene saw everyone, no exception.

Even if you speculate that Bernkastel just thought Lambda was fucking with him with false informations, there is still the red truth

In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

So there is still a discrepancy between this red truth and the perspective of Erika who never saw Shannon and Kanon at the same place at the same time.


Given that it's either that Bernkastel is a complete idiot or she knew about Shkanon all along. With Erika it's a little more complicated, it is possible that she never saw that replay from Battler's perspective, but there's still the red truth. So either Erika wasn't given an important red truth, or (worse of all) she didn't actually have a reliable perpsective!!!

Another possibility is that she knew about shkanon, but that would make EP6 ridiculous beyond belief.

What remains in the end? Yeah you could say that in Ep5 Shannon and Kanon are actually two separate persons. That would be completely fucked up since it's kind of the core of Beatrice's game, but there is still a bigger problem:

Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

If Kanon and Shannon are two different people in ep5 then the number must have increased by one. You can only fix that if Lambda removed someone else, but then Erika should have still noticed in the scene where everyone was in the same room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
These quotes are a few pages back but anyway...

This sounds right, until we compare it to Ange's reaction.
If the truth Ange learned is that Sayo Yasuda is the one who murdered their entire family well I really don't get her reaction. Not to mention I really wouldn't get why would Eva protect her from the truth. It's not even "weird" but rather totally random.
I guess it could be possible to reason it given a very specific scenario, it's probably something supporters of Yasu murderer in prime should try to explain.
My theory on the subject is that Yasu had the intention to kill everyone with the bomb but she actually didn't do that, because she lost her gamble. The adults solved the epitaph and by the rules she created herself she had to stop her murderous plan. What shocked Ange is most probably the narration of what happened after Yasu's plan failed.

I guess at least we all agree that on Rokkenjima Prime the main responsible for the massacre isn't Yasu. What we disagree with is whether Yasu had the intention to kill everyone or not. Note that even if I claim that she had the intention to do that, it doesn't necessarily mean that she could do that. For example one person could start with all the intetions to go to his tyrannical boss and give him a piece of him, only to find himself to be unable to do so when face to face. One person could have all the intentions to kill himself by jumping from a scyscraper only to find himself unable to do so once he's up there.
I don't know if Yasu could do that or not and I don't care about it that much. What I believe is that she had the intention to do so and she was mad enough for that. But in the end she never had the chance to prove she could live up to her intentions.
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Old 2011-11-26, 09:21   Link #25951
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Arc 3 has that The 15 people mentioned are dead.
Jessica, Battler and Eva are definitively alive.
Kinzo even if dead at the start of every game remains dead, that's fine.
But for that count to be right, Shannon and Kanon both count as "dead people" even tho "Yasu" is still alive and not counting for an alive person by the 18 count (unless Battler is right and Yasu killed herself right after killing Nanjo I guess, but it still counts Shannon and Kanon as seperate "dead" people). Arc 6 then says that there are 17 people. I think Kanon and Shannon are always going to be considered "people" as they are pieces of the "human side", even tho they are actually one being.



Edit: Ryuukishi's lines about something we can only understand if we have been in love. Not all love stories leads people wanting to murder others, happy love stories exists. That's why I don't think that's what he meant. It was something more vague I think. Suppose we take George. His love of Shannon is making him built up tons of dreams he may or may not be able to ever fulfill. Nonetheless he kept on dreaming about it and kept on polishing it. Love makes one "daydream" about a lot of things.
Anyway there is no way that anyone on earth would ever understand simply out of having been/being in love how that could lead you to mass murdering 18 people. Hmm I guess it's more 15 and one suicide.
The only thing that compares to that I can think of in our non fictional world is the people who made murder sprees into colleges and schools. I really doubt love was part of any of them's motives either.

An idea. Suppose that like shown in the arc 7 Tea Party, Eva doesn't believe "Beatrice" about the bomb clock and ends up activating it while being certain she's deactivating it.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-26 at 09:49.
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Old 2011-11-26, 10:53   Link #25952
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Regarding Erika's perception and Shkanon's body in EP5, I swear we just had this discussion. XD

I believe noone was really convinced otherwise, but came down to:

1. The consensus being "Kanon was behind Godha", and Erika didn't see him, which is, in it's way, possible, because Erika doesn't narrate that scene. This maintains Shkanon, and makes Erika a little retarded.

2. I believe Lambda just gave Kanon his own body, which WOULD NOT increase the person count, and it doesn't MATTER that it betrays the point of Beato's game because it ISN'T Beato's game. This saves Erika from being an idiot, and makes Lambda take a new level in Trolling.

3. lol Ryukishi logic
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Old 2011-11-26, 11:41   Link #25953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
2. I believe Lambda just gave Kanon his own body, which WOULD NOT increase the person count, and it doesn't MATTER that it betrays the point of Beato's game because it ISN'T Beato's game. This saves Erika from being an idiot, and makes Lambda take a new level in Trolling.
What never actually occured to me as an argument...can't we consider Erika herself as a tragic hint towards what she herself was unable to deduce? That there is a person on the island who appears as one but doesn't raise the count in the slightest.
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Old 2011-11-26, 12:00   Link #25954
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
1. The consensus being "Kanon was behind Godha", and Erika didn't see him, which is, in it's way, possible, because Erika doesn't narrate that scene. This maintains Shkanon, and makes Erika a little retarded.
Retarded as fuck, which doesn't really add up. That would mean that Erika has extraordinary perception of details and superior logic and intelligence only when it doesn't mess with the author's plans. Then again there are other evidences of that (for example, not checking the corpses and other impartant details), but that just adds more to my point that nothing makes sense in EP5.

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2. I believe Lambda just gave Kanon his own body, which WOULD NOT increase the person count
Then the definition of "person count" is used in a completely arbitrary manner without notice (for example in EP6 Shannon and Kanon do not count as two separate people. That's the very point of that final red), which doesn't come as a surprise, sadly.

Either way it doesn't make sense, not according to the definition of "sense" I use (and which is commonly used).

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3. lol Ryukishi logic
Right.
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Old 2011-11-26, 12:25   Link #25955
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's what you keep not understanding, we know the exact moment of detonation, or at least it was made known in the story.

I'm not saying that it "needs" to be exactly midninght for whatever reason, I'm saying that it is explicitly said that it was exactly midnight with an error of seconds at best. And if we accept this scenario as true (and I see why not) then the idea of a more reliable clock than a simple grandfather clock becomes more logical.

You should have understood what I meant by my last post, if my english is that bad please tell me where it wasn't clear.
It's not your English, but your failure of basic understanding of the concept of timekeeping itself.

"Exactly midnight" is a completely arbitrary concept. In a story, such as the fiction themselves, time is an easily standardized concept. Thus, there is no problem with a bunch of old-timey grandfather clocks all happening to have the exact same time as each other and for "midnight" to fall whenever the author wants it to.

However, that certainty only exists in a fictional concept. The bomb Kinzo set up, and the mechanism that governs it, if they actually existed as described in ep7 and ep8, was a real device. A real device has to work in a real way, and is subject to real limitations.

So in R-Prime, it's simply a fact that the detonation would have occurred when that particular clock thought it was 00:00 of October 6, 1986. Other clocks in the house may have been different. People's watches may have been different. More to the point, there is no way to verify the exact time of detonation in R-Prime (no observers and no reliable methodology), and further still, there is no way to accurately ascribe an arbitrary time such as "midnight" in the first place.

In a story, midnight is a real time that everyone can acknowledge, that red text can bound (as in Erika's alibi determinations), and that all clocks and any associated detonators can be tuned to. And in the stories this is what happens. In R-Prime, it can't have worked that way. At best, the clock was well-tuned and hit midnight at about the same time (within a minute or so) as any well-tuned clock in the region would have. Which of these times was "exactly 00:00" is pointless to wonder about, however, because units of time are arbitrary human constructions.
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3. lol Ryukishi logic
I know you're just kidding, but it sells short the argument that was made there, which basically amounts to:

Ryukishi made a mistake with respect to obeying his own rules when two sets of rules interacted in a way that could have led to a contradiction. Specifically, the rule "unreliable narrators can describe things that are not actually present (such as Kanon)" running up against "as the capital-D Detective, Erika's observations are accurate." According to the first of these, the scene is fine; Battler is narrating and Battler is no longer a reliable source.

However, Ryukishi appears to have completely ignored the second of these facts, which is that if Erika existed in the room and was capable of observation, she should have a catalog of observed facts from the same scene independent of Battler's own. We in fact now that this is true; Erika summarizes findings she does not narrate in ep5, and the entire meta-narrative twist of the first half of ep6 relies on the fact that Erika can see and do things that the story itself doesn't actually mention.

It should not matter what Battler reports; since Erika was also there, Erika is not required to rely upon Battler's testimony to accurately account for every individual she observed, and she has a photographic memory (thus, she should know quite literally every person she saw in exactly the order she saw them). We are therefore led to one of two inescapable conclusions:
  • "Kanon was behind Gohda and never observed," which is ridiculous (and Erika would be able to conclusively state that she never observed him, which should make her suspicious even if this explanation were given as it makes no sense); or
  • Ryukishi forgot what Erika can do because he was too busy trying to be clever about lying to us with Battler for the first time that he didn't even remember the voluminous rules about Erika he just made up and told us about.
Ergo, lol ryukishi logic, QED.
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:33   Link #25956
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Everyone else was inside the room when they found them though? Are you saying that they where never there to begin with?
Yes, I am.
  • A ton of witnesses (Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi) saw the dead in the cousins' room.
  • Those same witnesses viewed the cousins' room as empty when they saw it again later with Natsuhi.
  • After George's death, his corpse was never moved!
    After Jessica's death, her corpse was never moved!
    After Maria's death, her corpse was never moved!
    After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!
  • None of the corpses would ever lead to a mistaken autopsy.
I'll let you think about it.

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Considering Erika's close proximity, she would have been the first one to go inside the room after Battler yelled.
She wasn't. Upon hearing Battler's scream she instead immediately went to check all the tape seals she made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Thunder makes a short circuit somehow leading to the bomb exploding. Before it does at one point Eva and Battler solves the epitaph and follow the path to Kuwadorian and end up being safe while everyone else blows up.
Are you saying that the chamber of gold is at or near the Kuwadorian? Because it isn't.

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We are therefore led to one of two inescapable conclusions:
I don't buy this. There are more ways to approach the issue. For instance...

I've been thinking: Try to imagine that Erika, even piece-Erika, has only meta-information. Like... she's a reader's projection of herself (AT has described Erika as a "Mary Sue" before, which may even be correct in a fairly literal sense). Remember all that talk between Ange and Featherine about how a different reader makes the story different? Erika's final red of episode 6 was clearly intended to appear contrary to that of Battler and Beatrice; it's a hint about Erika's (and red text's) subjectivity. We have both 18 people and 17 people interpretations stated in red, giving both a measure of legitimacy. It was only the fact that Beatrice "won" the duel that made one interpretation appear more valid than the other.

In other words, Erika seeing Kanon and Shannon as separate beings is her interpretation of the story; Piece-Erika does not see them as the same being because Meta-Erika is unable to think of them as the same being.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-26 at 14:52.
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:46   Link #25957
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Quote:
In other words, Erika seeing Kanon and Shannon as separate beings is her interpretation of the story; Piece-Erika does not see them as the same being because Meta-Erika is unable to think of them as the same being.
That's expressly not how Erika's perceptions work. She sees things exactly as they should appear, and cannot be visually deceived, hallucinate, etc.

This should apply to meta-interpretations of a non-meta scene, or her reliable viewpoint is absolutely worthless. It's even worse an idea than "Kanon behind Gohda lol."
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:46   Link #25958
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Exactly midnight" is a completely arbitrary concept. In a story, such as the fiction themselves, time is an easily standardized concept. Thus, there is no problem with a bunch of old-timey grandfather clocks all happening to have the exact same time as each other and for "midnight" to fall whenever the author wants it to.
Because time is standardized, the point of it being arbitrary is irrelevant.

We can arbitrarily decide that "this is midnight" and then standardize it to every clock of the world. But for the clocks of the worlds to adhere to that standard over the course of days they need to be accurate.

If the story tells us (and it does) that the Rokkenjima explosion happened at midnight of this standardized time almost precisely down to the minute, then it had to be a reliable clock. This is my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So in R-Prime, it's simply a fact that the detonation would have occurred when that particular clock thought it was 00:00 of October 6, 1986. Other clocks in the house may have been different. People's watches may have been different.
The other clocks are irrelevant. What matters is the standardized time and the clock that dertermined the time of the explosion.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
More to the point, there is no way to verify the exact time of detonation in R-Prime (no observers and no reliable methodology),
This is where I believe you are wrong. There is that mention that "since it was such a huge explosion" in the sentence that Ryuukishi wrote that makes me believe he is implying that the time of the explosion was ascertained through scientific means. The Izu islands are volcanic, there must have been seismographic devices around it, the shockwave must have been big enough for them to notice it, so it is possible that the time of the explosion was determined with precision.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
and further still, there is no way to accurately ascribe an arbitrary time such as "midnight" in the first place.
Again you are wrong at least you are if you accept an error inferior to few nanoseconds. "midnight" is no less or more arbitrary than "friday" or "monday" once you set the standard you can determine it with precision, and midnight is a well predetermined standard applied to various zones of the world.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
At best, the clock was well-tuned and hit midnight at about the same time (within a minute or so) as any well-tuned clock in the region would have. Which of these times was "exactly 00:00" is pointless to wonder about, however, because units of time are arbitrary human constructions.
It's my very point and it's not pointless at all. For the clock of the bomb to nail with precision the midnight of the standardized time it had to be a precise clock.

The arbitrarity of the concept of "midnight" is absolutely beyond the point of this discussion.

I hope this is clear now.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • "Kanon was behind Gohda and never observed," which is ridiculous (and Erika would be able to conclusively state that she never observed him, which should make her suspicious even if this explanation were given as it makes no sense); or
  • Ryukishi forgot what Erika can do because he was too busy trying to be clever about lying to us with Battler for the first time that he didn't even remember the voluminous rules about Erika he just made up and told us about.
Ergo, lol ryukishi logic, QED.
At least we totally agree on this point.

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In other words, Erika seeing Kanon and Shannon as separate beings is her interpretation of the story; Piece-Erika does not see them as the same being because Meta-Erika is unable to think of them as the same being.
That completely invalidates either the absolute reliability of her perspective or the validity of the deductions she can made from them. Which either way would prevent her from reaching absolute conclusions like the red truths. However she still can spill red truths like there's no tomorrow. If she was really that mad to "see things" no matter if she thought she killed Kyrie and Natsuhi and so on in EP6, her interpretation of reality is fucked up = she can't reach red truths, at all!

If there is the possibility that she could see inexisting things then there is the possibility that she just dreamed about killing Natsuhi and the rest, it's not 100% = it can't be a red truth. This is also one of Ryuukishi's law.

It is amazing how many times it happened that people trying to patch up plot holes didn't realize how many other problems (even greater problems sometimes, but not this case) the proposed patch would cause if true. Reminds me the many discussions I had with Chronotrig.
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Old 2011-11-26, 14:53   Link #25959
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I don't buy this. There are more ways to approach the issue. For instance...
Well yes, if you're willing to be utterly ridiculous, I suppose there are other ways to approach the issue. Rationally, however, there really aren't that many actual useful explanations. I'd appreciate if other ideas could be brought forward, but only if they make some kind of sense of the contradiction in the story (either within story terms or outside of it).

Your idea is simply unworkable because it's incompatibly recursive: Erika has only meta-knowledge, therefore Erika only sees what she wants to see; yet Erika has perfect observational powers, which means Erika can confirm details which the narrative does not directly allow her to see. You're basically trying to shoehorn Erika's inexplicable ignorance of something she should be aware of into Meta-Erika's inability to interpret the story. While Erika can and does misinterpret the story, she doesn't misperceive details, which is what you're trying to claim here. Essentially you're saying "because Erika doesn't see Shannon and Kanon as the same person, she's capable of concluding they are." I don't disagree with you, but the ep5 parlor scene problem has nothing to do with what you're talking about at all. It's a failure of perception, not a failure of conclusion. The "Kanon was behind Gohda" excuse, lame as it is, is intended to be a failure of conclusion: as Erika never saw Kanon, she just assumed he was somewhere she could not observe. However, she would not simply assume a person exists without cause. And none of that addresses that what Meta-Erika thinks of the narrative has no bearing on the information Piece-Erika would have passed to her.

To conclude what you've said would mean that Erika's powers don't work as we're explicitly told they work. So for you to be right, Ryukishi has to be making stuff up again that he actually intends for us to believe are how things work when in fact they don't.

EDIT: Jan-Poo, I don't understand what the hell your point is regarding clocks, but you're not actually making any useful points about it.
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Old 2011-11-26, 15:02   Link #25960
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
EDIT: Jan-Poo, I don't understand what the hell your point is regarding clocks,
Really? Should I just give up to this apparent lack of communication or should I try more?

Is there anyone that got my point about clocks? I want to know if it's me or Renall.
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