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Old 2009-10-24, 07:13   Link #2581
Jan-Poo
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There is actually that possibility.

in ep5 we have been presented a situation where an incident who lead to the death of a maid and a baby (or so it seem) and clearly Beatrice had nothing to do with it. However we can see how Beatrice claimed to be the one who did, all that to cover the truth about the real culprit.
therefore I can say:

Beatrice is a scapegoat. She claims to be the culprit to cover an unbearable truth. It is a truth that Battler himself cannot accept, similarly to ep2 where Battler doesn't want to suspect anyone, Beatrice is giving him an alternative: it was the witch, it was done with magic, there's no need to suspect anyone else.

Explaining the actions of real Beatrice is a lot tougher 'though... it seems that there's been a long preparation for this crime. If real Beatrice isn't the culprit, what kind of relation exists between them? How can the bank accounts be explained?
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:09   Link #2582
scwizard
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Another episode one puzzle.

At the climax of episode one, Battler hears a single gunshot.
Spoiler for image:


Then when him and the rest arrive shortly after, it is Natsuhi's gun which has recently discharged.
Spoiler for image:


Later the culprit kills Battler, despite Battler pointing Natsuhi's gun at them.
Spoiler for image:


What's going on here? Here's my theory:
Shannon is dressed as Beatrice and has a gun that is similar in appearance to Natsuhi's, that is loaded with four blanks and a live round. Natsuhi comes around the corner to where the duel was arranged, and then gets shot in the head by Shannon before she can react. Shannon takes Natsuhi's gun, and replaces the gun in Natsuhi's cooling hands with her own. Battler and the rest arrive. Maria hugs Shannon. As the clock strikes midnight Shannon and Maria laugh manically. Battler unloads all four blanks into Shannon. Shannon shoots Battler. The game is over when the detective dies. The game is over at midnight. Game over.
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:18   Link #2583
Jan-Poo
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You are assuming that the anime failed big time here.

Not like it is impossible, but it is still amusing... or maybe not...
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:26   Link #2584
scwizard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are assuming that the anime failed big time here.

Not like it is impossible, but it is still amusing... or maybe not...
I haven't seen the anime, in what way did it fail big time?

What am I still assuming.

Actually let me change my theory a bit. Swap Shannon with Kanon. I think that Shannon is dead. In this scene Battler says that he can't count the bodies in the shed on one hand, which would imply that Battler saw six bodies in the shed.
Spoiler for image:
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:35   Link #2585
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I haven't seen the anime, in what way did it fail big time?
Oh... well the anime basically differs in that that when Battler and the rest arrive, Natsuhi has been just shot in the head, and they even see her falling down.
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:49   Link #2586
scwizard
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Well, purple text is stuff that follows unambiguously from Battler's observations:
The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!
Only one shot was fired in the witch's duel with Natsuhi.
When Battler finds Natsuhi's body, a gun that has recently discharged is in Natsuhi's hand.

From these premises I conclude that:
The gun that the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi is in Natsuhi's hand when Battler finds Natsuhi.

There is no way for the gun the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi to get into Natsuhi's hand before her body hits the floor. So yeah. Fuck the anime, the anime fails.

In the visual novel the gunshot rings out right after they break down the door in the common area that Natsuhi rigged shut. Then they find Natsuhi's body well after she hits the floor.
Quote:
Like the heroine of a tragedy, lying down and bathed in light, .........arrayed in the beauty of that silence, ......Natsuhi oba-san was face up, crumpled on the floor......
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:05   Link #2587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Well, purple text is stuff that follows unambiguously from Battler's observations:
The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!
Only one shot was fired in the witch's duel with Natsuhi.
When Battler finds Natsuhi's body, a gun that has recently discharged is in Natsuhi's hand.

From these premises I conclude that:
The gun that the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi is in Natsuhi's hand when Battler finds Natsuhi.

There is no way for the gun the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi to get into Natsuhi's hand before her body hits the floor. So yeah. Fuck the anime, the anime fails.

In the visual novel the gunshot rings out right after they break down the door in the common area that Natsuhi rigged shut. Then they find Natsuhi's body well after she hits the floor.
It's more "dramatic" to see the falling body, so of course DEEN would take that route, even if it didn't make any sense.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:09   Link #2588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Well, purple text is stuff that follows unambiguously from Battler's observations:
The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!
Only one shot was fired in the witch's duel with Natsuhi.
When Battler finds Natsuhi's body, a gun that has recently discharged is in Natsuhi's hand.

From these premises I conclude that:
The gun that the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi is in Natsuhi's hand when Battler finds Natsuhi.

There is no way for the gun the culprit used to shoot Natsuhi to get into Natsuhi's hand before her body hits the floor. So yeah. Fuck the anime, the anime fails.

In the visual novel the gunshot rings out right after they break down the door in the common area that Natsuhi rigged shut. Then they find Natsuhi's body well after she hits the floor.
Now, now, let's not get all down on the anime yet. After all, if Natsuhi and the culprit fired simultaneously, then Battler would only have heard one gunshot, especially if the culprit's gun has a silencer.

Furthermore, in the anime, Natsuhi's gun wasn't smoking, and Battler didn't have to rechamber a round before he fired his first shot at the portrait. On that basis, we can conclude that the gun Natsuhi is holding was never fired in the first place.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-10-24 at 13:22.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:22   Link #2589
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Now, now, let's not get all down on the anime yet. After all, if Natsuhi and the culprit fired simultaneously, then Battler would only have heard one gunshot, especially if the culprit's gun has a silencer.
The problem I have with that is that even though silenced shotguns DO exist, they're not something most people would think of. Especially not in Japan.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:29   Link #2590
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
The problem I have with that is that even though silenced shotguns DO exist, they're not something most people would think of. Especially not in Japan.
On what basis do you claim that Natsuhi was shot with a shotgun? There appear to be several kinds of guns available on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:29   Link #2591
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However I can imagine other possible scenarios that are compatible with the anime


Case one: Natsuhi's gun didn't fire. Battler is not a dog, unless he sniffed Natsuhi's gun it was impossible for him to be sure the odor came from that gun. It is possible that he smelled the gunpowder of the other gun that fired. The projectile that he expelled before firing to Beatrice wasn't spent.

Case two: Natsuhi and the culprit fired at the very same time. Since Battler and the others were on another room they weren't close enough to discern with clarity if it was a single shot or two simultaneus shot. The shot happened in a very big hall, so the reverberation could have been attributed to the echo.


Anyway I do believe that your reconstruction makes more sense, but I can't completely rule out other possibilities that wouldn't make me think the anime completely failed.

Quote:
he problem I have with that is that even though silenced shotguns DO exist, they're not something most people would think of. Especially not in Japan.
Neither Natsuhi's gun or the culprit's gun were shotgun. But that's not the point. In fact we don't know that kind of gun the culprit used, so a silenced gun is a possibility.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:43   Link #2592
Workworkwork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However I can imagine other possible scenarios that are compatible with the anime


Case one: Natsuhi's gun didn't fire. Battler is not a dog, unless he sniffed Natsuhi's gun it was impossible for him to be sure the odor came from that gun. It is possible that he smelled the gunpowder of the other gun that fired. The projectile that he expelled before firing to Beatrice wasn't spent.

Case two: Natsuhi and the culprit fired at the very same time. Since Battler and the others were on another room they weren't close enough to discern with clarity if it was a single shot or two simultaneus shot. The shot happened in a very big hall, so the reverberation could have been attributed to the echo.


Anyway I do believe that your reconstruction makes more sense, but I can't completely rule out other possibilities that wouldn't make me think the anime completely failed.



Neither Natsuhi's gun or the culprit's gun were shotgun. But that's not the point. In fact we don't know that kind of gun the culprit used, so a silenced gun is a possibility.
...They're sawed-off winchester shotguns. What makes you think they're not shotguns?

Of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been another gun. That same gun could have been the one that killed George in EP4.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:44   Link #2593
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You'd have to question what the culprit would gain from switching the guns. If she had the time to take the gun from Natsuhi, why replace it at all? She doesn't need to arm the cousins at this point. And it's not like leaving the gun makes it look like some brilliant magical murder; in this instance, Natsuhi has pretty clearly been shot and has not been staked.

If the culprit wants to kill the children, there's not much reason to not just wait for them to rush out where Natsuhi is and gun them down from Battler down to Maria. It's possible that the culprit actually didn't intend to harm the children, and the gun was left there for some reason that the culprit assumed wouldn't be a threat to her (was empty, was loaded with blanks, she was hiding in a secure location, etc.).

However, even if Battler had a real gun with live ammo, we know he's never managed to hit a human being with it. At least, not fatally.

EDIT: The guns are Winchester 1895 rifles, I believe. Sawed-off, but still, they're rifles. Winchester shotguns are over-unders that "break" to reload. Random theory: The Winchesters are impossible to silence! It would be very hard to fit a suppressor to a gun that old and modified. If a silenced gun exists, it's probably a more modern weapon, and I'd guess probably a handgun.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:56   Link #2594
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a question
knox rules are in EP5, but I wonder if it is mentioned on the previous four arcs?
' espicially by beato "

" "Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems in mystery novels, there must never be hidden passages. I also follow that etiquette." from which episode this citation is ?
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:57   Link #2595
Jan-Poo
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Workworkwork, they aren't sawed off shotguns... they are sawed off rifles. It is easy to tell the difference... shotguns do not fire single bullets, they fire pellet rounds. These winchesters fire single bullets.

Quote:
"Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems in mystery novels, there must never be hidden passages. I also follow that etiquette." from which episode this citation is ?
Episode2, around the time Rosa drives the servants away from the parlour. Beatrice definitely seems to forbid secret passages.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:59   Link #2596
Kamar
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The Mare’s Leg (aka Mare’s Laig; both sometimes spelled without the apostrophe) was the name given to a customized shortened rifle by Steve McQueen’s character on the television series Wanted: Dead or Alive (1958–1961). McQueen’s character was named Josh Randall, and the gun has also been referred to as a Winchester Randall, or a Randall Special. (From Wikipedia)

I see the mistake a lot though. Most people think sawed-off=shotgun.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:05   Link #2597
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My mistake about the gun guys, I read the TIPs and was too embarrassed to correct myself.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:08   Link #2598
Jan-Poo
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Maybe because there's little reason to saw off a rifle, if you want a smaller weapon a gun is a better choice. Sawed of shotguns by other hands are devastating at close range. They however become useless for the purpose of hitting far away targets. They are mostly execution weapons, not meant for a gun fight. They were popular among mafia criminals.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:53   Link #2599
scwizard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Now, now, let's not get all down on the anime yet. After all, if Natsuhi and the culprit fired simultaneously, then Battler would only have heard one gunshot, especially if the culprit's gun has a silencer.

Furthermore, in the anime, Natsuhi's gun wasn't smoking, and Battler didn't have to rechamber a round before he fired his first shot at the portrait. On that basis, we can conclude that the gun Natsuhi is holding was never fired in the first place.
I don't like the idea of having to have a separate theory for the anime and for the vn.

In the vn, the gun was smoking, and Battler had to and did rechamber a round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However I can imagine other possible scenarios that are compatible with the anime


Case one: Natsuhi's gun didn't fire. Battler is not a dog, unless he sniffed Natsuhi's gun it was impossible for him to be sure the odor came from that gun. It is possible that he smelled the gunpowder of the other gun that fired. The projectile that he expelled before firing to Beatrice wasn't spent.

Case two: Natsuhi and the culprit fired at the very same time. Since Battler and the others were on another room they weren't close enough to discern with clarity if it was a single shot or two simultaneus shot. The shot happened in a very big hall, so the reverberation could have been attributed to the echo.


Anyway I do believe that your reconstruction makes more sense, but I can't completely rule out other possibilities that wouldn't make me think the anime completely failed.



Neither Natsuhi's gun or the culprit's gun were shotgun. But that's not the point. In fact we don't know that kind of gun the culprit used, so a silenced gun is a possibility.
In the case of your case one, it doesn't work because as I said, Battler had to and did have to rechamber a round, as I have demonstrated with a screenshot. In addition to that. I hate the idea of doubting Battler's senses on principle. If the text says Battler smells smoke coming from the barrel of a certain gun, then that gun was smoking. Just like how if Battler sees Eva shoot him, that means Eva shot him.

Case two is more viable. However in that case, where did the shot Natushi fire land? I guess you can just say that she shot and she missed to explain that one away. Natushi shoot at the culprit and missed with her gun, the culprit shot at Natsuhi with a silenced gun and hit her in the head.

That's a perfectly valid answer. The strongest rebuttal I could find, is that Battler would have noticed the damage caused by Natsuhi's missed shot.

Last edited by scwizard; 2009-10-24 at 15:04.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:56   Link #2600
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it wasn't smoking. that winchester was one of the first rifle that used smokeless bullets. the VN doesn't say there was any smoke visible.
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