AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-11-29, 12:57   Link #26021
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The bullshit factor is so strong, especially with Erika seemingly able to do things retroactively without BATTLER knowing, that you can wonder whether Erika really did those things. Considering Genius Battler, you can imagine that everything Erika allegedly did in EP6 was just her fantasy which BATTLER strategically let her play out. After all, all he wanted was the logic duel so that Beato could show her stuff.
There's actually a hint about her plans near the start of the episode when she finishes with Sorc-Battler interrogation. She cuts it short for a reason and its because Battler left her an opening that she knew she could exploit. It did feel that Erika was pushing it, though but Battler could have easily denied it if he wanted.

Anyways, the way I envision those particular scenes where Erika explains how she did the murders is that Battler had no way to make the possibility of those murders happening 0. So as long as there was a possibility for her to do it, she could do it. Had Battler initially stated "No, after the doors where unlocked no murder took place in those rooms" in red he could have prevented her from murdering them. At least while they where in those rooms.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 13:59   Link #26022
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Well, I dont think it was piece Battler that was narrating though right? The way he spoke in that scene it made you think it was meta-Battler. So its something he observed in the gameboard from above. Which is what made this scene stupid.
It was Piece-Battler.

Quote:
Well, I don't think Touya was ever trying to fool anyone as such, was he?

Actually, why did he publish in the first place? Or was that Ikuko's doing... which, if she were Yasu, would actually mean those weren't forgeries. And if she isn't, who can fathom what she does anyway.
Probably not, but Toya's not the only one writing forgeries. Once the hobby seemed to transcend from hoax to fanfiction, people felt that his writings were 'authentic' and that he got things down perfectly.

Quote:
The bullshit factor is so strong, especially with Erika seemingly able to do things retroactively without BATTLER knowing, that you can wonder whether Erika really did those things. Considering Genius Battler, you can imagine that everything Erika allegedly did in EP6 was just her fantasy which BATTLER strategically let her play out. After all, all he wanted was the logic duel so that Beato could show her stuff.
And the reds about her killing people? Because that totally happened.

Erika, by name, does things in the red text in both episodes.

Quote:
But Piece-Battler is not exactly our narrator in episodes 1-4 either; he's just the protagonist who happens to have what he directly witnesses to be reliable. Our narrator in those episodes is represented by either Beatrice or by a combination of both her and Meta-Battler. Our narrator in 5 is Lambda or a combo of her and Bernkastel.
Despite that, Piece-Battler does narrate nearly every scene he appears in.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 14:11   Link #26023
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
There's actually a hint about her plans near the start of the episode when she finishes with Sorc-Battler interrogation. She cuts it short for a reason and its because Battler left her an opening that she knew she could exploit. It did feel that Erika was pushing it, though but Battler could have easily denied it if he wanted.

Anyways, the way I envision those particular scenes where Erika explains how she did the murders is that Battler had no way to make the possibility of those murders happening 0. So as long as there was a possibility for her to do it, she could do it. Had Battler initially stated "No, after the doors where unlocked no murder took place in those rooms" in red he could have prevented her from murdering them. At least while they where in those rooms.
I think it's less that she couldn't do it and more that he wanted her to do it, else he wouldn't have given her exactly the means she needed to do it.

The idea, I think, is that Erika is permitted to do something if Battler allows her to do it, and she can make her own actions rise to a red truth because she can definitively confirm that she did them. So even if Genius Battler doesn't apply (which I doubt), Battler knows that by permitting Erika to do what she does at the point she's able to commit the murders, the only way he can actually stop her is to make what she's doing impossible (bodies disappear, victims already dead, etc.). It seems clear that it was not his intent for the "victims" to have ever left their rooms, but neither were they meant to be dead. Erika specifically exploited this.

The only remaining question is whether Battler intentionally allowed it or not. If he allowed it, then we don't even need to ask how Erika has the ability to do it, since she does it only at his sufferance and he could've easily stopped her but didn't want to. If he didn't, it's still possible that Erika could say something like "I've sealed all individuals other than myself and the victims in their rooms. There is no individual who can stop me from murdering the victims, therefore I am able to do it and I choose to make my piece do it."
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 15:24   Link #26024
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only remaining question is whether Battler intentionally allowed it or not. If he allowed it, then we don't even need to ask how Erika has the ability to do it, since she does it only at his sufferance and he could've easily stopped her but didn't want to. If he didn't, it's still possible that Erika could say something like "I've sealed all individuals other than myself and the victims in their rooms. There is no individual who can stop me from murdering the victims, therefore I am able to do it and I choose to make my piece do it."
Well, assuming Genius Battler, Erika certainly seemed to think that she caught Battler off guard by killing the other 5 fakers, which means she can't be of the opinion that Battler would know what was going on in his own game.

Of course it could be that Battler wouldn't know because they were objectively cat-boxed until Erika established their deaths as fact, but doing that should a Gamemaster's power, right? Is there a way that Battler could grant Erika this authority without realizing it? Erika would have to be of the opinion that there was, otherwise she should have realized she was falling into a trap.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 15:58   Link #26025
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's not clear if the GM knows everything that goes on in their particular game. There is, however, evidence to support the idea that they do:
  • Beatrice never seemed to have a problem keeping everything under control.
  • Lambda never seemed all that surprised by anything Erika tried to pull, and the MF19YA thing seems to come from nowhere unless she knew about it going in.
  • Battler shows curious flashes of insight that suggest he knows Erika's going to pull a Logic Error and wants her to. First, Genji/Ronove mentions the concept to him. Second, he repeatedly offers her detective authority and is rebuffed, and if he's not a complete idiot he has to know there's only one reason for her to reject it. Third, he offers Erika retroactive moves (already unusual and certain to provoke a Logic Error) and the exact number of moves she needs to "trap" him, no more and no less.
Taken together, it seems like GMs can't simply be blindsided by the actions of pieces, but there's no hard rule that proves it. However, there is also the possibility this isn't the case (Lambdadelta, for example, would have to know everything to GM ep5 under this idea).

Either way, Genius Battler doesn't specifically require that Battler knew Erika would put him into any particular Logic Error or that she would do so at any particular time, but his entire game seemed designed around baiting her. Blatantly permitting faked deaths while she didn't have absolute observation being an obvious "intentional bad move," as she could've destroyed it easily with detective authority and abstained. The only reason for her to abstain is to do something like she actually did. Again, Battler can't possibly not know that.

For me, the single biggest hint as to Genius Battler is that Battler already knew what a Logic Error was while he was in the process of crafting his game. Why would he learn about something so dangerous - mostly offscreen, mind you, as Genji/Ronove basically raises the subject and then we don't see their full discussion - only for Battler to completely ignore it?

Erika is apparently not party to all the rules. I'm not clear on whether Bern is, or whether Bern would tell her about a rule like this. It seems as though Bern can be surprised, however, which would seem to support the notion that not even she is entirely sure of what the GM can do. But since we aren't party to all the rules either, it winds up nebulous. Cynically, I'd suggest that Ryukishi did that on purpose precisely so he could pull a trick like that without having to dodge too many of his own rules in order to explain it.

Still, remember that fundamentally, Genius Battler or not, the only reason Erika could even force a Logic Error is because Battler chose to give her retroactive room sealings. There's no way she could be absolutely sure that Battler would give her the tools she needed to catch him in the bedroom. Thus, "trap Battler in a Logic Error" must have been her general plan, but not necessarily her specific plan, as that plan would rely on factors beyond her control. By contrast, Battler can anticipate that if he gives Erika exactly enough room sealings to trap him in the bedroom, she probably will try to do that. And if Battler is somehow even more omniscient than that, he'd already know that she's going to do that. Regardless, it's in Battler's court, not Erika's, and the game is always his to lose. I happen to think he intentionally gave it away, but even if he didn't, there's no way Erika "wins" unless Battler intentionally permits her to.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 18:15   Link #26026
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
However, there is also the possibility this isn't the case (Lambdadelta, for example, would have to know everything to GM ep5 under this idea).
She does. Lambdadelta, as Beatrice's guardian, knows the truth of Rokkenjima (or atleast the truth of every game, or something); that's why she gave herself the authority of Gamemaster, and had to approve the Logic Error.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 19:36   Link #26027
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's not clear if the GM knows everything that goes on in their particular game. There is, however, evidence to support the idea that they do:
  • Beatrice never seemed to have a problem keeping everything under control.
  • Lambda never seemed all that surprised by anything Erika tried to pull, and the MF19YA thing seems to come from nowhere unless she knew about it going in.
  • Battler shows curious flashes of insight that suggest he knows Erika's going to pull a Logic Error and wants her to. First, Genji/Ronove mentions the concept to him. Second, he repeatedly offers her detective authority and is rebuffed, and if he's not a complete idiot he has to know there's only one reason for her to reject it. Third, he offers Erika retroactive moves (already unusual and certain to provoke a Logic Error) and the exact number of moves she needs to "trap" him, no more and no less.
Taken together, it seems like GMs can't simply be blindsided by the actions of pieces, but there's no hard rule that proves it. However, there is also the possibility this isn't the case (Lambdadelta, for example, would have to know everything to GM ep5 under this idea).

Either way, Genius Battler doesn't specifically require that Battler knew Erika would put him into any particular Logic Error or that she would do so at any particular time, but his entire game seemed designed around baiting her. Blatantly permitting faked deaths while she didn't have absolute observation being an obvious "intentional bad move," as she could've destroyed it easily with detective authority and abstained. The only reason for her to abstain is to do something like she actually did. Again, Battler can't possibly not know that.

For me, the single biggest hint as to Genius Battler is that Battler already knew what a Logic Error was while he was in the process of crafting his game. Why would he learn about something so dangerous - mostly offscreen, mind you, as Genji/Ronove basically raises the subject and then we don't see their full discussion - only for Battler to completely ignore it?
I also think Battler wanted to trap himself into a logic error.
After all his purpose in EP 6 wasn't just to show Beato he solved her riddles but also to help chick Beato to 'recover' her memory.

I've also been wondering about the knowledge a GM can have and about how Erika could kill people.

EP 6 more than any other game seems more like an intellectual battle than something really staged.
It's sort of a roleplay. Battler created the scenery and Erika had to move through it. In a roleplay you can't really know what the players will do but generally their options are controlled so that they can't do something that's so totally unexpect the GM won't know how to handle the story anymore (though once we came up with a solution the GM didn't expect... :P).

However that's what Erika is trying to do.

In a game where the player don't really do things but describes his actions Erika tries to use words to trick Battler into thinking she did something when she did something else so that he can't twist the story to stop her.

She did it with the ducktape and also with the checking of the corpses.
However I guess that, if Battler had wanted to continue playing the game, he should have proved Erika 'lied' when she said she killed the others (don't ask me how).

Now, I've no idea if it's possible to prove that Erika lied or made a mistake in believing she killed someone and that therefore her red truth isn't effective (in EP 5 a red truth had been declared ineffective because given by a supernatural agency... maybe there are other ways to invalidate a red truth) but I think those were supposed to be Battler's moves (if game 6 was supposed to contain a murder in his plan the culprit was likely going to be Yasu again...).

I guess even Beato and Lambda could have theoretically been trapped into a logic error... however I guess that differently from Battler, if they were to end up in such situation Lambda could let the human side win (she actually does, allowing Erika declare that the culprit was Natsuhi) while Beato likely wanted Battler to break the illusion of the witch and pin the culprit so she was hoping for Battler to do something that would solve a mystery and force her to resign.

Battler, once cornered by Erika, could have avoided the logic error allowing Erika to win, but he refused the option in order to save the illusion of the witch... and likely also in order to have Beato find a solution for the logic error.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 19:53   Link #26028
Aresian
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
So, I come to you… my fellow Umineko readers, with something interesting. Or maybe boring. Well here goes.

So like, I've managed to reach episode 3… but I've long since spoiled myself due to a number of factors. I know of Yasu, in fact… he/she is my main interest and one reason why I am here. I know about islands blowing up and other crazy things. And about Battler and his writings.

Now, I wish I had the time to read Umineko at an appropriate speed, but since I've just recently become happily married and life is taking further steps in keeping my preoccupied, I just lack the time necessary to finish Umineko within the near future. However… I cannot sate my need to know! I must know… the truth of Rokkenjima. I realize a good number of these questions may have been answered in the 1300+ pages of this thread. I also realize to wade through all these posts; I could just read Umineko instead.

So, I'm just gonna cut ahead of that line of madness and ask all the questions driving me nuts. If any of you can answer these questions, I will give you all my internets and even some imaginary cookies. You will also go on my list of "favorite internet folks". Yes, I cannot offer you anything of tangible value, such is the life of a pirate.

TL;DR Answer my questions below pl0x.


Spoiler:


I… can't think of the others I was thinking about in bed the other night so I'll just have to settle with these for now. If anyone can answer these questions, I'll be very appreciative.
Aresian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 20:37   Link #26029
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Ryuukishi does not actually clearly answer any of these questions, tho he might with his upcoming "Our confession".
Trying to explain what is known and why theories are done and what they refer to wouldn't make much sense unless you've read everything. It's not like he doesn't address these questions within the story and there is more then enough information for you to make your own take at it.
Even reading Umineko at a slow pace, you'll have it much faster then most of us who had to wait half a year between episode releases, so I'd say you should enjoy it.
The spoilers you've read probably will take a different meaning for you once you've actually read the part they relate to. "Yasu" is just a nickname for Sayo Yasuda so strickly speaking "she" has been introduced in arc 1.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-29, 20:41   Link #26030
Aresian
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Huh. Well... I guess I can't completely argue against that. Basically, there are a lot of unanswered questions (as I thought) and the best thing I can do is read it and determine for myself what the answers are based on the information and hints given?

While this makes my inner soul rage with the daunting task before me… I will have to endure this quest for truth. I will… yeah, I'm done being dramatic. Anyway, I suppose that will suffice for now. Once I've finished, maybe I'll return (someday) and state my own findings, if they are interesting.

Probably won't be anything no one else has said already though.
Aresian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 01:48   Link #26031
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That interpretation doesn't violate anything, but I'm not sure what it solves either because it's still the number of humans that Erika gets wrong.
It solves the issue of Erika's perception of Shannon and Kanon in End, by making the concluding that she was RIGHT about the number of people (18 living, breathing human bodies, if she includes herself) in Lambda's game. It also kind of excuses Erika on not being able to solve the Logic Error, by concluding that Lambda and BATTLER were rather troll-tastic GM's.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 02:13   Link #26032
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Yea, a big intent of the writer was that he didn't want his answer to be "Copypasted", so it's something we'll have to piece together ourselves, for better or worse. We'll be happy to read your thoughts when you return, though.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 06:09   Link #26033
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
yes guy's i have anathor question. lol sorry.
in ep6 how is it possible for kanon to be cousins room and shannon in next room over?
why aren't people .. agh.. wha the hell...
oh and battler's "Aknowledged" can be tricky right? he can lie like this right? he might aknowledge that krauss,jessi,rudolf,genji and gohda are in cousins room and not kanon for all we know. but why aren't humans getting suspicuis??

Last edited by battle22; 2011-11-30 at 06:23.
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 06:25   Link #26034
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
yes guy's i have anathor question. lol sorry.
in ep6 how is it possible for kanon to be cousins room and shannon in next room over?
That's the trick! Kanon was never in the cousins' room. Battler never said he was.

Quote:
oh and battler's "Aknowledged" can be tricky right? he can lie like this right? he might aknowledge that krauss,jessi,rudolf,genji and gohda are in cousins room and not kanon for all we know. but why aren't humans getting suspicuis??
He doesn't lie, he just says that the statement the other person made is red.

The trick is that he said that "Everyone else" is in the cousin's room, but Kanon isn't part of "everyone else" because he and Shannon are the same person. Erika was tricked because she never realized Kanon wasn't real.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 07:37   Link #26035
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
Okay but, why aren't humans getting suspicius? rudolf and krauss for example. they
just don't care that kanon is'nt there or they know about shkannon? or they were
also part of this fake murder mystery and knew about shkannon to trick erika. i get it.
lol i answered my own question
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 07:46   Link #26036
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
They are all in it.

Comedy Option- They aren't, they tell Erika that its weird Kanon isn't in the room but Erika's actually deaf so she ignores them.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:01   Link #26037
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Or they just think Kanon's in the other room.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:19   Link #26038
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or they just think Kanon's in the other room.
A,b,c...f are in the other room. The people that should be in here are u,v,...z. So...where is z? Is he hiding under the bed Erika? Erika why are you ignoring us when there's a potential killer on the lose?
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 16:27   Link #26039
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
A,b,c...f are in the other room. The people that should be in here are u,v,...z. So...where is z? Is he hiding under the bed Erika? Erika why are you ignoring us when there's a potential killer on the lose?
Confused about the letters you're using.

But I think what AT's saying is that the people in the cousin's room will just conclude "well if he's not here he's somewhere else" and think no further than that. They're not aware of the red text implying where he is supposed to be.

Episode 6 shows us a very different reaction though in the form of a fantasy scene.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-11-30, 17:23   Link #26040
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Is Erika present during the segregation? Its incredibly stupid for her to lead people into the rooms, seal them and not even notice Kanon was part of one the groups that went in the rooms. Then again, Erika seems to oscillate between genius and high functioning retard very rapidly.

Not saying that its not how it happened, just saying the whole situation is incredibly dumb.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.