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Old 2011-12-12, 18:13   Link #26221
Bluemail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
That's what I'm saying is a GTA scenario, it's not one bit realistic. It's not because if they had checked Eva's corpse that it changes that they could've die for every single additional victims.
Beside, reread it if you want, the Tea Party doesn't describe the wounds on Hideyoshi/Rosa/Beatrice/Eva when they are shot by Kyrie. Like at all, we dont know where they were shot or what kind of wounds they have.
And missing at such a close range sounds ridiculous to me.
And since Kyrie becomes pretty much a demon whenever Eva is not there to observe her, I'm not even sure that Kyrie is the killer in that tea party.
Believe me, if I shoot you at close range, I won't be needing to check your pulse to know you're dead or not. Do any of you realize the damage a winchester would do to a human if it hit them?
I'm not saying that I think it is realistic. I think that if there is truth in it, it didn't all happen just like we saw it, and there is some trick of perception. You bring interesting points, and Kyrie missing Eva at such range has been bugging me as well.

Evil twist theory time (Brief version):
Yasu/Ikuko and Battler/Tohya committed the crime together, and their goal was to create the catbox and have the family as their pieces in an unending series of mysteries they enjoy together. And give them a happy ending sometimes, if they wish.
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Old 2011-12-12, 18:41   Link #26222
AuraTwilight
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Quote:

@ Aura, you said Ryuukishi ruined everything. That's not the truth, that's your truth, that's what I'm saying, and it's totally relevant.
>Reading WAAAAY too deeply into my exact wording, but if you're going to do that, let's go to what I actually said.

Quote:
Ryukishi kind of ruined everything with his shitty moral foundations.
Meaning? See: The whole big ass argument about Ryukishi thinking it's okay to lock up the truth entirely and that the culprit doesn't need to be exposed for their crimes. It's been done to death, let's not do it again; the point is it's not MY truth, it's THE truth; it's a failure of a mystery story to outright say the truth shouldn't be pursued.
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Old 2011-12-12, 19:01   Link #26223
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well I guess we won't agree on this, but seriously? You think murdering everyone one by one is a safe/good plan?
Of course not. I'm just saying that it has no worse chance of success than trying to hide the murders. Once Kyrie shot Rosa there was no good/safe plan.
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Old 2011-12-12, 19:22   Link #26224
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Well, honestly if I were to kill everyone else before they were to realize someone is missing I'll either do while they are sleeping or by poison. Shooting them would be noisy and pontentially dangerous.
The Winchesters are old and don't have an eternal supply of shots so things can go wrong, especially if the people you're planning to kill is all awake and can move around and witness you trying to kill one of them.
Some poisoned tea is a lot more sure and faster.
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Old 2011-12-12, 21:52   Link #26225
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Meaning? See: The whole big ass argument about Ryukishi thinking it's okay to lock up the truth entirely and that the culprit doesn't need to be exposed for their crimes. It's been done to death, let's not do it again; the point is it's not MY truth, it's THE truth; it's a failure of a mystery story to outright say the truth shouldn't be pursued.
Are you saying the culprit needs to be exposed if he's already dead, and the only living person who'll be affected by the truth is a young, nearly-suicidal girl whose family is dead?
Also, Rokkenjima is a cat box, with very little information coming out. What if whatever evidence Battler or Eva or whoever had pointed at the wrong person? If it's not solid enough for a conviction, is it really so important for the public to be aware of it?

What right does the public have to hear a truth about the Ushiromiya family when they're all dead?


Also, if you're arguing that Ryuukishi says "the truth shouldn't be pursued", then Will contradicts you by telling us to solve it like a mystery.
The reason the truth shouldn't be pursued in the game is because Ange is a real person, and everyone she meets knows who she is and suspects her family. In our world, Ange isn't a real person.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:46   Link #26226
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Are you saying the culprit needs to be exposed if he's already dead, and the only living person who'll be affected by the truth is a young, nearly-suicidal girl whose family is dead?
Also, Rokkenjima is a cat box, with very little information coming out. What if whatever evidence Battler or Eva or whoever had pointed at the wrong person? If it's not solid enough for a conviction, is it really so important for the public to be aware of it?
Of course it is. Because it's information that is not yet known. It moves us closer to Truth. Its veracity cannot be analyzed or questioned if it is not known.

Hiding the truth is morally wrong. Ange is not the only person in the world. She's not even the only remaining victim. Apparently you don't care about Nanjo's son? Gohda's theoretical mother? The other servants who weren't on the job that day? Captain Kawabata? Kinzo's lawyer?
Quote:
What right does the public have to hear a truth about the Ushiromiya family when they're all dead?
Truth does not belong to anyone and no one has the right to conceal it.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:47   Link #26227
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Quote:
Are you saying the culprit needs to be exposed if he's already dead, and the only living person who'll be affected by the truth is a young, nearly-suicidal girl whose family is dead?
Well, and Kumasawa's family, and Nanjo's family, and Gohda's family, and the boat-driver who blames himself for being unable to come to their rescue, and Jessica's schoolfriends, and Asumu's parents who loved Battler like their own grandson, and all the police who probably beat themselves up for being unable to put all those minds at ease...

Quote:
Also, Rokkenjima is a cat box, with very little information coming out. What if whatever evidence Battler or Eva or whoever had pointed at the wrong person? If it's not solid enough for a conviction, is it really so important for the public to be aware of it?
It's better than "Battler is a sicko motherfucker that killed everyone to enjoy their tears and would rape his sister if they ever met" or "George raped the nine year old Maria and ripped her jaw off."

Quote:
What right does the public have to hear a truth about the Ushiromiya family when they're all dead?
Don't the Ushiromiyas have the right to not have all these stupid, disgusting, baseless, and vile things said about them? Only the truth can put an end to that.

Quote:
Also, if you're arguing that Ryuukishi says "the truth shouldn't be pursued", then Will contradicts you by telling us to solve it like a mystery.
And Will contradicts that in EP8 when he says that all these Goats don't deserve to know, and such.

Quote:
The reason the truth shouldn't be pursued in the game is because Ange is a real person, and everyone she meets knows who she is and suspects her family. In our world, Ange isn't a real person.
SO?! It's BECAUSE she's a real person that she DESERVES to know what happened to HER FAMILY. What if her parents and brother DIDN'T go around shooting people up and saying they didn't love her to Eva's face? Doesn't she deserve to know so she doesn't have to doubt them and have the worry eat her up inside?
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:05   Link #26228
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@AuraTwilight:
You're making good points, but what if the truth that the author thinks they have is that Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits?
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:09   Link #26229
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We can't know unless somebody makes it possible for us to know. If they conceal it, they're doing a disservice.

And so what if Rudolf and Kyrie were the culprits? Why should Ange be shielded from that after 1998? She's an adult. She can make her own decisions. Why should someone else decide what she has a right to know?
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:12   Link #26230
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You're making good points, but what if the truth that the author thinks they have is that Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits?
Then why should Nanjo's son worry that his father is a murderer? And why should George be treated as a child-rapist-murderer?

There's just no way to win this. As long as the truth is unknown, EVERYONE is treated as guilty. The only way to honor the innocent is to reveal who the guilty is. If Kyrie and Rudolf really DID do it, then they're going to be blamed either way. Atleast with the truth, Ange can trust her brother, or knows that Maria's mother wasn't a murderer, or something.
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:38   Link #26231
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I don't think the game was talking about that kind of truth that you guys are talking about. From EP7 and 8, it seems like the kind of truth that the rumor mongering Witch Hunters were making was something like (and I don't ascribe to this theory, so this for illustrative purposes here

Rudolf, Kyrie and Battler went around killing everyone because they were trying to get all the gold for themselves!

The truth part is: "Rudolf, Kyrie and Battler went around killing everyone" but the 'truth' that the game talks about seems to be more the opinion part of that sentence, the "because they were trying to get all the gold for themselves!" Basically the second part is unfounded, but possible, and was leading Ange astray.


It's very easy for people to sneak in an opinion attached to a truth and many others will see it as also their personal 'truth' despite there being no real understanding of the situation.

I know you guys are demanding the Truth truth; i.e. like the facts. That's no problem... but the other part, the vile rumor mongering as Aura said, seems to be the other 'truth' that the story talks about. Witness Ryukishi talking about how Evil Battler will continue to become 'true' the more it is discussed. Clearly this is not the factual Truth but opinions...
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:39   Link #26232
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The thing is, the result of that is that innocent people are being punished for the sins of rumormongers. That's not acceptable.
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:48   Link #26233
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Then why should Nanjo's son worry that his father is a murderer? And why should George be treated as a child-rapist-murderer?

There's just no way to win this. As long as the truth is unknown, EVERYONE is treated as guilty. The only way to honor the innocent is to reveal who the guilty is. If Kyrie and Rudolf really DID do it, then they're going to be blamed either way. Atleast with the truth, Ange can trust her brother, or knows that Maria's mother wasn't a murderer, or something.
I think you're assuming that Battler knows the whole truth. What if he doesn't?

If the truth is something like EP7's tea party, Battler hardly knows anything of what happened on the island. Unless he heard from someone or was in on the plan, all he could possibly know is that Eva shot Rudolf and Kyrie, and maybe that Kyrie claimed she had tried to kill everyone (though he may not have heard that conversation).

Even if he were to go forward and say "I saw the only other survivor kill my parents, and by the way, my Mom/Dad apparently killed a bunch of people", that wouldn't remove the suspicion from everyone else, would it?

EP8 places a huge stress on one point: there is no red truth in the real world. I'd guess that has something to do with Eva's book being confirmed in red.
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:58   Link #26234
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I think you're assuming that Battler knows the whole truth. What if he doesn't?
What if he doesn't? People have the ability to analyze what he does know and think and come to their own conclusions. It's paternalistic to act like you or anyone else should decide what people ought to hear simply because they might make a mistake.
Quote:
If the truth is something like EP7's tea party, Battler hardly knows anything of what happened on the island. Unless he heard from someone or was in on the plan, all he could possibly know is that Eva shot Rudolf and Kyrie, and maybe that Kyrie claimed she had tried to kill everyone (though he may not have heard that conversation).

Even if he were to go forward and say "I saw the only other survivor kill my parents, and by the way, my Mom/Dad apparently killed a bunch of people", that wouldn't remove the suspicion from everyone else, would it?
Well, it would certainly make it an awful lot less likely that those other people were the ones behind it all. Intelligent, mature adults can discern that Battler's testimony is potentially incomplete.
Quote:
EP8 places a huge stress on one point: there is no red truth in the real world. I'd guess that has something to do with Eva's book being confirmed in red.
If you need the crutch of red truth - certainty - to pursue Truth, you don't really want it. Ideals can be pursued even knowing they will never be attained. The moral positive is in doing good things because they are good.
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:59   Link #26235
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Releasing the diary's contents to the public would accomplish exactly nothing. It wouldn't clear Eva's name, and it would fan the flames against Rudolf and Kyrie on top of that, without actually providing useful evidence to clear any of the other people.

Which, by the way, is still relying on the huge assumption that the diary exists and is in Tohya's hands in the first place. As opposed to being a fictional prop to drive fictional Ange's story.

ed: To clarify, what makes you think Tohya himself knows anything about the two days at all? He never got those memories back.
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:02   Link #26236
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Releasing the diary's contents to the public would accomplish exactly nothing. It wouldn't clear Eva's name, and it would fan the flames against Rudolf and Kyrie on top of that, without actually providing useful evidence to clear any of the other people.
It would increase the information available. You seem to believe there is no value to this in and of itself.

You do not have the right to treat other people like children and decide what knowledge is or is not "useful." Someone could find a detail you never even noticed that, combined with other information you've never even heard of, blows the case wide open. You don't know, I don't know, none of us are in R-Prime.

Explain to me how it hurts anything to know what Eva believed? There are people who would believe she is a liar. There are people who would believe she is telling the truth. Who are you to say whether these people should be forbidden to even have a chance to analyze the information?
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:35   Link #26237
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Explain to me how it hurts anything to know what Eva believed? There are people who would believe she is a liar. There are people who would believe she is telling the truth. Who are you to say whether these people should be forbidden to even have a chance to analyze the information?
Well, if you're trusting the majority of the public to look at this rationally and take it seriously, how do you explain the millions of mystery and fantasy fans?

Just think about it. Everywhere you go, your face is recognized by everyone, and they think they know way more about you than they do. I firmly believe that is what makes most (okay, some) famous people insane (and I live in Southern California). Having your personal life exposed all the time to the world is not healthy, but at least most famous people choose to step into that life. And at least most are viewed as objects of desire unless they do something stupid.
And, not naming names, but when you get famous as a kid, that's usually so much worse for you. This is assuming that you have a family that loves you, or at least one friend that you see on a regular basis.

And, of course, not even 1 in every million of these people had anything to do with the Ushiromiya family. Do the other people truly deserve to know anything about Ange's family? Just because "it's the truth"? If Ange were a killer, I'd agree with you. But she isn't.
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:46   Link #26238
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It would increase the information available. You seem to believe there is no value to this in and of itself.
It doesn't have any value in and of itself. There's a reason the police don't go around publicizing every lurid detail of every murder case that crosses their desk. If you go tossing information like that to the general public, you're potentially demonizing innocent people, causing psychological trauma to the survivors, and airing out the victims' dirty laundry so that Joe Schmoe on the street can leer at it.

It doesn't matter whether some guy on a Witch Hunter forum could analyze the information and learn something new. He's not involved, and he doesn't have any right to it.
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:47   Link #26239
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Well, if you're trusting the majority of the public to look at this rationally and take it seriously, how do you explain the millions of mystery and fantasy fans?

Just think about it. Everywhere you go, your face is recognized by everyone, and they think they know way more about you than they do. I firmly believe that is what makes most (okay, some) famous people insane (and I live in Southern California). Having your personal life exposed all the time to the world is not healthy, but at least most famous people choose to step into that life. And at least most are viewed as objects of desire unless they do something stupid.
And, not naming names, but when you get famous as a kid, that's usually so much worse for you. This is assuming that you have a family that loves you, or at least one friend that you see on a regular basis.

And, of course, not even 1 in every million of these people had anything to do with the Ushiromiya family. Do the other people truly deserve to know anything about Ange's family? Just because "it's the truth"? If Ange were a killer, I'd agree with you. But she isn't.
Why do you feel compelled to infantilize everyone else in the world? Some people will make poor decisions with access to more information. Many of these people are making those poor decisions already. The fact that this fear rules your analysis of the situation demonstrates a deep distrust for Truth and the moral good of seeking it. A moral good, I should point out, that Ryukishi himself initially charged us with before turning around and calling us dicks for doing it. Well, nuts to him. He was right before he was wrong. Brilliant Truth, not gilded ignorance, should be our ideal.

You're also willing to deny Truth to legitimate victims - you have conveniently ignored all the people AuraTwilight and I have pointed out who were connected to the family and were victimized by the tragedy - whom you also wish to exclude out of fear of what others might think, say, or do. This is wrong. You advocate a position that is morally despicable. What Battler and Beatrice are asking me to do is something I cannot in good moral conscience do. I can't respect their wishes, I can't respect Ikuko's actions, and I can't respect Ange for her selfishness (of course, this assumes she ever actually saw any such information, which she may not have).

Ange chooses how the weight of the world affects her. That the world has dealt her a bad hand due to the information that has existed so far and the irresponsible way it's been handled does not mean moral ills are justified to correct that. Perhaps the Truth is liberating, perhaps it isn't. No one gets to make that decision if evil people lock it up in a box for selfish reasons.
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It doesn't have any value in and of itself. There's a reason the police don't go around publicizing every lurid detail of every murder case that crosses their desk. If you go tossing information like that to the general public, you're potentially demonizing innocent people, causing psychological trauma to the survivors, and airing out the victims' dirty laundry so that Joe Schmoe on the street can leer at it.

It doesn't matter whether some guy on a Witch Hunter forum could analyze the information and learn something new. He's not involved, and he doesn't have any right to it.
Sure he does. We hide Truth because it's expedient, not because it's morally justifiable. It's wrong, but we try to justify it as preventing other wrongs. But two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 2011-12-13, 00:48   Link #26240
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Well, if you're trusting the majority of the public to look at this rationally and take it seriously, how do you explain the millions of mystery and fantasy fans?
People like Will exist. A non-insignificant portion of Mystery and Fantasy fans are able to emotionally project themselves into the story and see the people suffering in the story as real individuals, and sincerely wish for them to receive justice and happiness.

Quote:
Just think about it. Everywhere you go, your face is recognized by everyone, and they think they know way more about you than they do. I firmly believe that is what makes most (okay, some) famous people insane (and I live in Southern California). Having your personal life exposed all the time to the world is not healthy, but at least most famous people choose to step into that life. And at least most are viewed as objects of desire unless they do something stupid.
Right. So... if it comes to light that "Celebrity X didn't ACTUALLY make a sex tape, it was a set up", that's something they and their loved ones should want to be revealed. The same thing here for the whole "Rokkenjima Victim X did NOT actually flip out and kill everyone" deal.

Quote:
And, of course, not even 1 in every million of these people had anything to do with the Ushiromiya family. Do the other people truly deserve to know anything about Ange's family? Just because "it's the truth"? If Ange were a killer, I'd agree with you. But she isn't.
Who the fuck gets to say they DON'T deserve to know? And how do you release this information so that it only goes to the people who DESERVE to know? Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Ange, Nanjo's and Kumasawa's families, and Kyrie's family, and Asumu's parents, and the boat captain, and Jessica's friends, and whoever else "deserve" to know.

How do you release this information so that only THEY ever hear it? You either have to release it to everyone, or no one gets to see it. And why should Ange and everyone be punished because the rest of the world is irresponsible jerks?

That's like making a law saying that no one can use the internet because some people use it to pirate music.
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