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Old 2011-12-14, 14:58   Link #26341
jjblue1
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First thing to consider: technically Ange IS a child.

Now, according to definitions: 'The age of majority is the threshold of adulthood as it is conceptualized (and recognized or declared) in law. It is the chronological moment when minors cease to legally be considered children and assume control over their persons, actions, and decisions, thereby terminating the legal control and legal responsibilities of their parents or guardian over and for them.'

Ange is 18.

While this would make her barely an adult in my country in her own major age is actually stated at 20 (and I've heard before the limit was 21) which makes her a child in law, Eva and Battler's eyes. It's in Battler and Eva's legal right to withold the truth for her.

Second: Ange's problem isn't just that she doesn't know the truth.
It's that she lost her family, was handed to an aunt she doesn't get along with and was bullied by her classmates who probably accuse her to be the daughter of two murderers or, alternatively, the niece of a murderer.
Since her situation is really sad she hopes the truth will fix things.
She's sort of like an abandoned child who hopes in truth her parents didn't abandon her but are searching for her and loves her so very much.
Her hope, if proved false, is no better than Yasu's delusions.

Now, let's assume that Eva choses to tell her the truth and let's assume this truth is 'your parents killed everyone' (and not 'George killed everyone').
Let's also assume she'll accept the truth because we're really talking of a child of 6 who's suddently told by a aunt who's suspected to be a murderer (more precisely her parents' murderer) 'hey, your parents are serial killers'.
I'm not really sure she'll buy it but, for the sake of the discussion let's go with the idea that she said 'oh yes, aunt Eva, you're right, mom and dad actually were monsters and you're shouldering everything because you're so brave'.

Now, we've Ange in the position were some would want her to be, she was truthfully told the truth and... how would this change her life?

She would still be without her family, whom she loved, she would still be with Eva (and knowing the truth doesn't mean she would get along with her) and she would still be bullied by her classmates who probably accuse her to be the daughter of two murderers or, alternatively, the niece of a murderer.

Which would be a nice situation compared to: 'everyone knows her parents were murderers and rightfully consider her the daughter of such people'.

Now, it is possible that Ange will find inside her the strenght to overcome all this and say 'so yeah, mom and dad were monsters and everyone hates me for this but who cares?' or that she won't and she'll find herself unable to even hope that her classmates' bullying is unfair because SHE KNOWS THE TRUTH.

Personally I find more than understandable how Eva didn't want to tell Ange the truth (if the truth was 'your parents killed everyone'), not while she was/is a child.
I would have found morally correct if she had given her the chance to know the truth once she were to become of major age.
Eva however might have made a mistake in her judgement and thought that Ange would have preferred to continue accuse her than to know that her parents were murderers. Or she might have thought at that point Ange wouldn't believe her anymore.

Note that although in Ep 4 Ange said she'll make an effort to look at Eva as if she could be innocent in EP 8 she makes clear that's not the truth she wants. Ange is not searching THE TRUTH but a convenient truth. Understandable but it shows she's still immature though likely definitely more mature than she was previously (in fact once forced to face the truth in the end she'll manage to endure it).

I'll skip Toya because it seems he had not the chance to tell her the truth (he claims he doesn't know it, in the beginning he wasn't even sure he was really Batter and afterward he couldn't find Ange).

Let's move to Battler.
He PROMISED to tell Ange the truth. After he finished telling her what he wanted to tell her.
She throws a childish temper tantrum, refuses to listen what doesn't match with her ideas and in the end decides to slam her head against the truth the hard way. Note that although Ange survived to it, in the beginning the blow was pretty big.

Now, we can find annoying that Battler wanted Ange to wait before knowing the truth but is the message he was trying to convey so worthless?
He was trying to tell her that his family loved her hoping this would help her to accept that hey, despite this they did pretty horrible things.
Was he being patronizing? Maybe but with Ange still a minor he didn't have the duty to tell her the truth. Ange does nothing to prove him she's ready for the truth, or that she's an adult. She just throw temper tantrums and demands a convenient truth.
She also imply she 'doesn't want to leave Rokkenjima' and, since she knows everyone is dead in the truth, it can be taken as a reference to the fact she's still suicidal.

So... although I agree Ange should have been told the truth IN THE END I think she wasn't ready for it, she did nothing to show she was ready for it and the fact she survived to it was more a matter of luck than the inevitable conclusion.
I praise her for surviving to it but I find legittimate how Battler wanted to wait for her how well being (note that I still think he should have told her at some point...).

Umineko's mistake in regard to the truth IMHO is:
- it implies real Ange will never find out the truth (Toya doesn't remember it, Ange doesn't seem to care for it, everyone forgets about Eva's diary)... though in the end she survived just fine to her lack of knowledge.
- it leaves us with the feeling that the servants' relatives didn't deserve to know the truth (and note that the servants' relatives, differently from Ange, were adult and more deserving to know and Umineko implied the servants were innocent so not knowing wasn't even protecting them)
- it leaves justice unaware of the truth also (it's possible there should be compensation for the servants' relatives if their parents were murdered and it's possible either Eva wouldn't inherit the Ushiromiya's money if she was somehow involved in the murder. There could have been implications for Battler and Yasu too if they weren't completely innocent).
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Old 2011-12-14, 15:34   Link #26342
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There are this many people who would look at an emotionally fragile, depressed, suicidal girl and think "yes, clearly the best course of action is to show her something incredibly cruel that is her worst nightmare before I try to talk her down from the ledge"?
There's nothing wrong with talking her down first before you show her the truth, but Battler wasn't planning to show her at ALL, and told her that the truth wasn't important.

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It's not like Battler was trolling her either. He gave her the key to the diary, said up front that the purpose of his game was to convey a message to her (to wit: the world doesn't suck, you don't need to kill yourself) rather than to show the truth, and told her she'd eventually have the choice whether to use the key or not after she heard him out. He confirmed, while not in front of Ange, that he intended to respect her decision on that matter. The fact that Ange misinterpreted his intentions as trolling is not his fault, and neither is the fact that Bernkastel sabotaged all of his work before he could finish.
He also said that the Happy Halloween Santa Kinzo Fun World was the Truth, which was a lie. And refused to let her know the truth when she asked and was no longer interested in playing.

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First thing to consider: technically Ange IS a child.
No, she's not. She is an adult. It doesn't matter what the law says, if the law says that 30 year olds are children, it wouldn't be true.

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She would still be without her family, whom she loved, she would still be with Eva (and knowing the truth doesn't mean she would get along with her) and she would still be bullied by her classmates who probably accuse her to be the daughter of two murderers or, alternatively, the niece of a murderer.
Actually, this is incorrect. The entire reason their relationship didn't work was because Ange accused Eva of taking her family away from her. If that isn't true, they should be fine. And if they get along, Eva won't send Ange off to a boarding school like a prison and have paid guards to make sure she never makes friends and stuff.

And most importantly, once Ange is forced to face the facts about what really happened, she'll be able to MOVE ON and try and find new reasons to be happy, instead of clinging to a hopeless past. She'll be able to love Eva without worrying that she'll forget her mother or somesuch thing.

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Personally I find more than understandable how Eva didn't want to tell Ange the truth (if the truth was 'your parents killed everyone'), not while she was/is a child.
I would have found morally correct if she had given her the chance to know the truth once she were to become of major age.
Eva however might have made a mistake in her judgement and thought that Ange would have preferred to continue accuse her than to know that her parents were murderers. Or she might have thought at that point Ange wouldn't believe her anymore.
I can agree here. Even if Eva was technically in the wrong, she was extremely commendable.

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Let's move to Battler.
He PROMISED to tell Ange the truth. After he finished telling her what he wanted to tell her.
She throws a childish temper tantrum, refuses to listen what doesn't match with her ideas and in the end decides to slam her head against the truth the hard way. Note that although Ange survived to it, in the beginning the blow was pretty big.
Let's not forget that Battler BROKE this promise. And was even lying to Ange during the whole game.
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:03   Link #26343
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Two things:

One, you hear of people who grow up too fast, or whose appearance belies their "real" age? That's Ange. She lost her entire family at 6. Even if she knew the truth and it was basically completely harmless ("an accidental explosion no one could have predicted or prevented did it, no one was at fault in any way"), you don't grow up normally with that kind of thing happening to you. Factor in all the other crap Ange had to deal with, and based on her characterization at 18 I'd say she's probably a lot more mature than most people her age. Now, she also has some crippling psychological vulnerabilities that will at times cause her to behave childishly, no question, but age should not be the factor that determines whether we think she can understand whatever it is that could be shown to her.

Indeed, I somewhat question why we feel the need to protect her at all. Oh, so she might take the truth hard? So she might even kill herself? So what? Last I checked, we aren't her parents (yeah about that), we aren't her legal guardians, and we're not doing anything more than allowing her to have the very information she asked for. We can talk down to Ange and convince ourselves that "well she can't handle it," or "she's just looking for a truth that's convenient, not the actual truth." That doesn't change the fact that she's put herself on a trajectory to seek it. Maybe she doesn't fully comprehend what she's likely to find. Maybe she'll kill herself if what she gets isn't what she actually wanted. Why can't she make that decision for herself?

It's like a son's decision to join the army and go off to war. His parents may not approve; they are concerned that the chance is high that their son will die, and the father (a veteran himself) wonders whether his son fully understands what it's like to go into battle and whether he'll be able to handle it. Should they stop him from going, and shoulder his resentment for the rest of his life? Should they allow him to go even knowing how unprepared he might be for the danger?

He may return a hero. He may return in a coffin. He might come back a man. He might come back a broken man. These are factors that, knowing of the potential risks the experience of war will cause, his parents reasonably understand. If they choose to trust in their son's maturity, he may die. That is part of life and part of living. Not everyone "makes it." Not everyone can handle it. But you don't know who will and who won't if you don't trust them to do the best they can and let things which are beyond your control happen.

Maybe Ange can't handle it. Maybe she'll die. Maybe she'll snap. Maybe she'll survive. Certainly, all of the above are suggested as possibilities in ep8. It's understandable why Battler wouldn't want to see his sister destroy herself, I get that. But stifling her at the position she's in is just going to keep that powder keg rumbling until Ange finally can't take it anymore and makes something happen. And he takes the worst possible position (as if unaware of this fact) and engages in what amounts to further delaying until Ange just can't tolerate it any longer. Delivering his message seems more important to him than Ange understanding and accepting it.

Is he trying to convince her, or is he trying to show off?

Two, financial compensation for losing your father or mother or son is pretty lousy, and it speaks to a tragic misunderstanding of the value of life and family. I can only hope the Yasu bank account thing is apocryphal, although if it isn't it's just weird to me.
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:29   Link #26344
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, she's not. She is an adult. It doesn't matter what the law says, if the law says that 30 year olds are children, it wouldn't be true.
Hum... your statement about her being an adult is based on what?
Mental maturity? Physical maturity?
And anyway it would be your opinion based on your culture and experience.
In Battler's world she's a child. Probably she's considered a child in his culture also.
I can claim she wouldn't be such in my country but he's in Japan, he's not supposed to act as he would if he were to be in my country.
You may be right in saying Ange isn't a child (I don't know from which country you are so I've no idea how things work where you are) but your vision won't apply to Battler's world.
To him Ange is what he can define as a child and he deals with her as such (it doesn't really help in Ep 8 Ange acts rather childish... personally I was sorry about it because she seemed more mature in Ep 4 & 6...).

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Actually, this is incorrect. The entire reason their relationship didn't work was because Ange accused Eva of taking her family away from her. If that isn't true, they should be fine. And if they get along, Eva won't send Ange off to a boarding school like a prison and have paid guards to make sure she never makes friends and stuff.
More likely in the beginning Eva wasn't sending guards to make sure Ange never made friends but to shield her from people like the 'goats' or the Sumadera.
Kasumi too walks around with a lot of bodyguards. It's pretty common for rich people... and it can be also pretty uncomfortable for someone as young as Ange.

You are assuming Ange would buy the 'your mom and dad were bad people and I was a victim and they shot my child and husband too'.
While it's possible Ange would believe it I honestly wouldn't bet on it.

Ange loves her relatives. She barely knew her aunt who's also accounted as a suspicious person by the media.
Personally I think this would make hard for Ange to believe Eva.

Eva might have better chances if she were to tell the truth but this would have many possible downsides:
- it's possible Eva isn't completely innocent
- it's possible Eva can't prove the truth
- definitely people would be mean with Ange since she's the daughter of two murderers
- Ange might still not believe Eva but thinks she assused her parents for her own gain
- Ange might not apprecciate how Eva tattled out the truth because people would still speak ill of her family.

So yes, maybe, if Ange were to believe Eva about her parents being monsters and Eva a good person they might get along (note that I'm not counting the fact that Eva was under stress and would stay under stress anyway due to the loss of her husband and son so she might end up misbehaving toward Ange just the same, as Rosa did with Maria) but I honestly see this as a possibility with pretty low chances.

It would be a very hard to accept and harmful truth for a child of 6 and one very easy to reject with an 'Eva lied' explanation. And honestly if Eva has not proofs 'Eva lied' would seem a pretty possible explanation.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And most importantly, once Ange is forced to face the facts about what really happened, she'll be able to MOVE ON and try and find new reasons to be happy, instead of clinging to a hopeless past. She'll be able to love Eva without worrying that she'll forget her mother or somesuch thing.
You assume Ange will be capable to move on. It's a very nice idea but truth is not all the people move on. Some will reject the truth (and again, if Eva has no proofs that's the truth is very easy to assume Eva lied for her own gain) and some will never get over the pain.
I like the idea Ange will move on and live a happy life. I can't say for sure she'll do it.
Kinzo never managed to move on, he always clung to Beato.
Kirye always remained jealous of Asumu, even after she died.
Eva always had a troubled relation with Krauss, never managing to get over their sibling rivality.
Rosa still can't get past the problem of Maria's father.
I won't go into how Yasu never managed to move on because she's a desperate case.

On the contary side Battler managed to forgive his father for remarrying so Umineko has, at least, one example of a person who 'moved on' so yes, there's hope that Ange will move on but it's a slim one.

I wouldn't bet on it.

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Let's not forget that Battler BROKE this promise. And was even lying to Ange during the whole game.
I'm lost. When did he break his promise? Didn't he always say she would have the chance to use the key IN THE END? And he made clear that the game he was showing her was an AU... but I thought that was something she knew as well.

It had to be an AU for her to be there and being there was her wish.
Though you may be right in Battler not showing her THE TRUTH about her relatives but what he believed was the truth.

The last time he saw Kinzo he was 12 and apparently he never saw how Eva acted with Ange.
Kinzo as a friendly grandfather might be something that exists in his memories and therefore a truth for him... but in those years Kinzo might have changed and therefore do not exist for Ange... though likely Kinzo doesn't exist for Ange at all because it's likely the last time she saw him she was 4.
Eva being fond of Ange is likely something he hadn't witnessed but that he'd been told about.

Thus although it's possible he's not telling the truth from his point of view he's not really lying...

... also I wonder if the Ange we saw in Ep 8 is in some way related to Ange or is merely another side of Toya/Battler's personality that took the shape of Ange or merely his own idea of the problems Ange is facing.

Real Ange likely has no memories of what Meta Ange went through in EP 8. Her choice to kill everyone in the boat or to go and become Yukari isn't based on what Battler showed her in EP 8.
Even if Toya might have written a book dealing with a similar theme we've no idea if it even reached Ange or influenced her.
And if I'm not wrong EP 8 ends up saying the tale is dedicated to Beatrice...
so I'm not really sure how we should deal with Meta Ange of Ep 8.
If she's just something Battler/Toya created probably the whole episode is a metaphor for something else... and Battler is merely witholding the truth from a part of himself.

Maybe Ep 8 represent a mental debate inside Toya/Battler about how he should deal with Ange and how he should deliver her the truth should he manage to find her... though this would mean is that his decision was to never reveal it were he to have the chance to meet her.
Not that Ange seems to mind.
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:35   Link #26345
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He did a piss-poor job of things because he's always been a poor judge of Ange's character and motivations. Bern wasn't helping, but his attitude was flawed from the start and his execution was... questionable. There's "Hear me out and decide for yourself" and there's "You're just gonna have to trust me." The former is how you speak to an adult. The latter is how you speak to a child.

Because that is how Battler thinks of Ange.
Battler's only ever known Ange as a child, so it would be natural that he thinks of her that way.

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Two, financial compensation for losing your father or mother or son is pretty lousy, and it speaks to a tragic misunderstanding of the value of life and family. I can only hope the Yasu bank account thing is apocryphal, although if it isn't it's just weird to me.
The secondary victims themselves thought so too; it's not like it was depicted as a good thing.
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:44   Link #26346
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Battler's only ever known Ange as a child, so it would be natural that he thinks of her that way.
Right, but that's a misjudgment. He's forgotten there's 12 years in there he doesn't know anything about, and that's more of her life than he did know.
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The secondary victims themselves thought so too; it's not like it was depicted as a good thing.
Oh I agree, it's just that if somebody behind everything thought that was going to be sufficient to make up for the loss of a loved one, they're pretty messed up in the head. Ange and Nanjo's son both seemed to agree that there was nothing good about the money.
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:55   Link #26347
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Ange is obviously considered a child by Japanese law if Kasumi can have custody over her after Eva dies. (the fact that she wants custody for money isn't relevant. Kasumi can legally pursue to be Ange's Gaurdian according to episode 4's narrative)
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Old 2011-12-14, 16:58   Link #26348
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Hum... your statement about her being an adult is based on what?
Mental maturity? Physical maturity?
Both. But in any case, the law or culture do not define what is, and isn't adult.

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In Battler's world she's a child.
Battler's world doesn't matter; he's wrong and he's dead, and even if he wasn't, he doesn't have any right to impose his moral values onto Ange simply for his own peace of mind.

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You are assuming Ange would buy the 'your mom and dad were bad people and I was a victim and they shot my child and husband too'.
While it's possible Ange would believe it I honestly wouldn't bet on it.
You're also assuming that this is the truth Eva would tell her. I'm not convinced it's anything more than Bern's Worst Case Scenario.

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You assume Ange will be capable to move on.
I'm saying she'd have the option. Given Ange's mentality, she doesn't unless she knows the truth, because the uncertainty tears her up. Even if she doesn't make the choice to move on, HAVING the choice is worth pursuing in of itself.

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I'm lost. When did he break his promise? Didn't he always say she would have the chance to use the key IN THE END? And he made clear that the game he was showing her was an AU... but I thought that was something she knew as well.
He LITERALLY said that this was the truth, and that Ange just doesn't remember because she was too young and the media paints a contrary image.

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... also I wonder if the Ange we saw in Ep 8 is in some way related to Ange or is merely another side of Toya/Battler's personality that took the shape of Ange or merely his own idea of the problems Ange is facing.
Who knows? I personally imagined that Meta-Battler in EP8 represents an aspect of Ange's personality.

Maybe BOTH are true. The Meta-World is fuckin' weird.

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Battler's only ever known Ange as a child, so it would be natural that he thinks of her that way.
Right, emotionally. Logically, however, he knows that he missed out on 12 years of her life and that she's an adult now. He has a moral responsibility to take that into account. While I don't blame him for being stuck in the mindset of Ange-as-a-six-year-old, it doesn't change the fact that he knowingly ignored the reality of her situation for his own personal emotional comfort.

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Oh I agree, it's just that if somebody behind everything thought that was going to be sufficient to make up for the loss of a loved one, they're pretty messed up in the head. Ange and Nanjo's son both seemed to agree that there was nothing good about the money.
Given Yasu's self-defeatist personality, I imagine she figured that she can't use the money once she's dead and it's better for it to go to these relatives instead of leaving them with nothing. That doesn't necessarily mean that she thought it was "a worthy consolation", though.

I personally like to think that the money was actually the payroll for everyone participating in the murder mystery game and the tragedy put a hilariously mistaken dark spin on it.
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Old 2011-12-14, 17:16   Link #26349
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
He LITERALLY said that this was the truth, and that Ange just doesn't remember because she was too young and the media paints a contrary image.
It's obvious that when Battler says "it's the truth" in this case he's not meaning that it's the objective Truth.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Given Yasu's self-defeatist personality, I imagine she figured that she can't use the money once she's dead and it's better for it to go to these relatives instead of leaving them with nothing. That doesn't necessarily mean that she thought it was "a worthy consolation", though.
I'm gonna kill their family for no good reason, but I hope their loved ones can use this money...

Makes no sense.

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I personally like to think that the money was actually the payroll for everyone participating in the murder mystery game and the tragedy put a hilariously mistaken dark spin on it.
Makes more sense.
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Old 2011-12-14, 17:25   Link #26350
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One, you hear of people who grow up too fast, or whose appearance belies their "real" age?
Yup, I've heard of them and I've heard also of people who were traumatized by facts so much they never mentally reach a full adult age.

It's like tossing up a coin, you can't tell on which side it will fall for sure.

So when faced with the decision of telling her the truth or not telling her the truth you've a 50% chance to do the right or the wrong thing for her and you'll know only after you'll see the result of telling her the truth.

So YOU will arbitrarily chose if to tell her the truth or not.
Either choice you'll take you will merely be able to value if that one was right or wrong. You won't be able to rewind and try the other one.
It's possible there's a 'right' choice and a 'wrong' one. It's possible they are both 'right' or both 'wrong' (with right and wrong I mean that will either be beneficial to Ange or not).

So I don't discuss the fact that it could be that telling the truth would end up being beneficial to her. I discuss the fact that SURELY telling the truth would have been beneficial to her.
This is something neither Eva, Battler or Toya could know with the infot hey had and something I doubt we can know with the info we have.

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Indeed, I somewhat question why we feel the need to protect her at all.
Uh? We don't have the duty to protect her... we can do it/try to do it out of pity, out of sympathy, out of kindness but we don't have the duty to do it... but I thought we weren't talking about us but about Battler and Eva.
Eva is her guardian and Battler is her older brother. They have the duty to protect her.
Now... if let's say gohda were to be alive he would have no duties toward her. No duty to protect her... though no duty to tell her the truth either.
If he could hide the truth to the police as Eva did... I don't think Ange will have ground to force him to tell the truth, unless she were to point a gun to him or to plea him and manage to get his sympathy or pity.

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Why can't she make that decision for herself?
Technically because she's still a minor but let's pretend she's of major age.
She can make that decision for herself, she just can't force others to help her in getting the truth.
If she's of major age I'll tell you I think she deserve to know the truth and decide for herself, still I can't force Battler or Eva to agree with me.
Freedom ends were another person's freedom starts.
She choses to seek the truth? That's cool and if she can bear it I'm siding with her. Battler and Eva think she can't handle the truth? Well, she's of major age so they can't stop her but I can't force them to change their mind or to aid her.

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It's like a son's decision to join the army and go off to war. His parents may not approve; they are concerned that the chance is high that their son will die, and the father (a veteran himself) wonders whether his son fully understands what it's like to go into battle and whether he'll be able to handle it.
If the son is of major age he'll sign for the army and the parents' opinion is of no influence.
If he's a minor and joining requires them signing something (I don't really know how things work in USA) they might decide not to sign.
Is it wrong or right?

It's their right and duty.
They will chose according to what they think is 'the best'.
Since we won't know what's the best untill we'll see which results will have that decision we can't really mark it as right or wrong we can merely agree or disagree.

You seem persuaded a minor always know what's right for himself and if he doesn't, well, too bad for him.
Note that each time someone does a mistake this mistake can end up affecting society, not just him and that's why, in hope the best choice will be made, we're supposed to take certain decision when we reach an age in which the state assume we're adults (this assumption might be wrong but I guess the state has no time to value each person and then decide if they're mature or not).
In addition to this a parent is supposed to love his child and wish the best for him. If he makes the wrong choice he's either inept or a cruel parent but this doesn't mean he'll surely make the wrong choice or that he'll decide for his own child forever.

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It's understandable why Battler wouldn't want to see his sister destroy herself, I get that. But stifling her at the position she's in is just going to keep that powder keg rumbling until Ange finally can't take it anymore and makes something happen. And he takes the worst possible position (as if unaware of this fact) and engages in what amounts to further delaying until Ange just can't tolerate it any longer. Delivering his message seems more important to him than Ange understanding and accepting it.
Is he trying to convince her, or is he trying to show off?
He's trying to do what he believes is best for Ange.
He and Eva might have done a lousy job though in the end Ange acted in an immature way for most of EP 8 (basically supporting Battler's vision she's a kid) and the worst part for her was to discover the truth, not being withold it.

To be honest the Ange we see in EP 8 is pretty messed up. Battler said he would tell her the truth after delivering his message which might have been his attempt to soften the blow but I think he was probably too late for 'softening the blow'.

Ange was already exasperated and suicidal before he started game 8 and Bern was messing up with her even more.
It's like trying to talk to someone who's about to toss himself down of a building because he thinks... let's say 'his kid won't survive an operation'.
Now you know the kid actually died and think if you tell him straight he'll just let himself fall.
Talking to him about happy times might calm him... or might hurt him further as he knows/fears there won't be happy times anymore and push him to jump anyway.

Negotiators try to talk with criminals. Psychologists try to help patients. Sometimes they do mistakes and someone die.

Battler is neither negotiator nor psychologist. He though he was helping Ange and technically he felt he was legittimate in acting the way he did.

He's not being deliberately mean to Ange, he's trying to help her.

Though yes, Umineko conveyed the message poorly.

Instead of 'although your family did something bad they still loved you so remember you were loved by them and they never aimed to hurt you' it became 'your family did something bad but who cares? they loved you. Sorta. Maybe. If you trust me. And I might be wrong as I wasn't with you while you were with them. Oh well, who cares? believe me or you'll go mad.'

.... but of this I blame Umineko, not Battler.

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Two, financial compensation for losing your father or mother or son is pretty lousy, and it speaks to a tragic misunderstanding of the value of life and family. I can only hope the Yasu bank account thing is apocryphal, although if it isn't it's just weird to me.
Yes, I've heard so, still if they owned compensation and they didn't get it i still deem it unfair.
Nanjo had a sick grandaughter who might have been in need of financial aid and little money would have been better than no money.
None of the servants' relatives dared to touch the bank account Yasu left them... if Yasu really left them an account and this wasn't merely part of the fiction so they got no money at all, they just lost a relative who could also be suspected of being a mass murderer.

I understand Battler and Eva might not care about them but still on the overall I would have preferred the story to care about them (for example it could have been said Eva felt like giving some compensation to them anyway).
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Old 2011-12-14, 17:34   Link #26351
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Legal duties are not really the same as moral duties. In the United States, for example, Ange would be eligible to vote and enlist and be financially independent, among other things. I've met plenty of 18 year olds who can handle that and I've met plenty who can't. From what Umineko's shown me of Ange, I think she's the sort who can handle that sort of responsibility, so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on making her own choices.

A parent's job isn't necessarily always to do what's best for their child. And in Ange's case in particular, she doesn't really have a parental figure at her age. Eva's dead (and distrusted), Kasumi's a stranger and an apparently crazy one at that, Battler doesn't know the Ange who is 18, and she really has nobody else. Even if you want to say someone in a parental role should attempt to influence her decisions (and, you seem to argue, control her access to information she desires), who exactly is supposed to do it?
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Old 2011-12-14, 17:50   Link #26352
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Battler's world doesn't matter; he's wrong and he's dead, and even if he wasn't, he doesn't have any right to impose his moral values onto Ange simply for his own peace of mind.
You're imposing your moral values on him... with the problem he doesn't even know your opinion. He lives in a world where what he does is right.
We can disagree but it's a matter of mentality and moral values and we can't force them on him.

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You're also assuming that this is the truth Eva would tell her. I'm not convinced it's anything more than Bern's Worst Case Scenario.
If the truth weren't something bad then the whole 'we aren't telling Ange the truth because it would hurt her' would fall.
If Ange's parents did nothing wrong and the murder was person X there's no reason to shield Ange from this.
In this case I would agree that keeping silent on the matter hurt Ange more than it was worth and that she deserved to know the truth as soon as possible.

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I'm saying she'd have the option. Given Ange's mentality, she doesn't unless she knows the truth, because the uncertainty tears her up. Even if she doesn't make the choice to move on, HAVING the choice is worth pursuing in of itself.
Well, technically she could have moved on anyway. She could have accepted it had been an incident.
That's the official version the police accepted and she has no way to prove it's not the truth unless someone else tells her otherwise.
Probably Eva at first told her 'it was an incident' but she refused to believe it.
The problem with Ange is she's not shown as searching THE TRUTH but a convenient truth and from here steem my doubt that, provided with THE TRUTH, if this were to be unpleasant, she would reject it.
She believes in the book because it was guaranted in red it was the truth but... she refused to believe in the scene Bern showed to her in EP 7... and seeing it caused her to 'self destroy'.
So while having the choice to move on would be a definitely good thing I think that she already had that option and that she gave no proof she would manage to do so prior to the end of EP 8.

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He LITERALLY said that this was the truth, and that Ange just doesn't remember because she was too young and the media paints a contrary image.
Well, it could be that Kinzo really was a good grandfather and Eva loved her (prior to losing her son and husband and so on).
I seem to remember though he confirmed to her the scenery was a fantasy one because SHE COULDN'T BE ON ROKKENJIMA WITH THEM so this should imply that the scene they were seeing wasn't EXACTLY as things went... unless Ange really went on R Prime and somehow escaped from it (let's say with Eva) and she was the one who got amnesy about it? And everyone kept her in the dark about how she was there?

... this reminds me of a pic someone made in which it was Ange who had the gun in her hands...

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Who knows? I personally imagined that Meta-Battler in EP8 represents an aspect of Ange's personality.

Maybe BOTH are true. The Meta-World is fuckin' weird.
LOL I admit I didn't consider this. You can be right though.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Right, emotionally. Logically, however, he knows that he missed out on 12 years of her life and that she's an adult now. He has a moral responsibility to take that into account. While I don't blame him for being stuck in the mindset of Ange-as-a-six-year-old, it doesn't change the fact that he knowingly ignored the reality of her situation for his own personal emotional comfort.
If in his world Ange is viewed as a kid regardless of the fact she's 18 it doesn't really matter she's 18.
He can't know he should consider Ange as an adult because in his world she's not as such. This is not personal emotional comfort is his world mentality and, while we can disagree, I fear there are low chances he might see something wrong in it.

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I personally like to think that the money was actually the payroll for everyone participating in the murder mystery game and the tragedy put a hilariously mistaken dark spin on it.
I like this theory. It sounds very plausible.
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Old 2011-12-14, 17:55   Link #26353
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We're not "imposing our values" on Battler. We're judging his actions based on the values we hold. There is no imposition and no penalty, nor does anything we do alter Battler's actions. We're just saying he was wrong.
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Old 2011-12-14, 18:05   Link #26354
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Legal duties are not really the same as moral duties. In the United States, for example, Ange would be eligible to vote and enlist and be financially independent, among other things. I've met plenty of 18 year olds who can handle that and I've met plenty who can't. From what Umineko's shown me of Ange, I think she's the sort who can handle that sort of responsibility, so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on making her own choices.
Personally I think Ange can be mature in certain things and immature in others.
From here to say that 'Ange can surely handle this' or that 'Battler should have known Ange could surely handle this' there's a long way, at least as far as I'm involved.

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A parent's job isn't necessarily always to do what's best for their child. And in Ange's case in particular, she doesn't really have a parental figure at her age. Eva's dead (and distrusted), Kasumi's a stranger and an apparently crazy one at that, Battler doesn't know the Ange who is 18, and she really has nobody else. Even if you want to say someone in a parental role should attempt to influence her decisions (and, you seem to argue, control her access to information she desires), who exactly is supposed to do it?
A parent's job is to take care of his child the best he can. Of course a parent might make mistakes or might be in the condition in which he can't do what's best for a child but doing what's best (what he and the state think is best) for his child is HIS DUTY.

At least here.

No idea what's a parent's job in USA though. Or, to be honest, in Japan.

Eva was appointed to the role of parental figure so until her death she had the right and the DUTY to do that job.
Battler, as her only adult living relative, should also have that duty.
Legally I guess Kasumi could also claim that right, thought I would like very much to have her legally exhonerated from this and forced to stay as fra from Ange as possible. I doubt she really feel she has the duty to take care of Ange, all she seems to want is to use Ange... which would make her a person who wouldn't do her job of parental figure in the right way. At all.

The fact that Ange doesn't recognize either of them as a parental figure doesn't allow them to say 'oh well, Ange, then do as you please, we don't care'.

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We're not "imposing our values" on Battler. We're judging his actions based on the values we hold. There is no imposition and no penalty, nor does anything we do alter Battler's actions. We're just saying he was wrong.
The problem is that likely according to the world he lives the choice we deem 'right' would be 'wrong'.
It becomes a problem of mentality and Umineko was written for Japanese readers with Battler as a Japanese character.

If Umineko's moral (didn't everything started because someone debated this? Or am I remembering wrong? There were so many messages I might have lost track of things) seems wrong merely because it's based on the Japanese mentality that clashes with ours... well, we can't really blame Ryukishi for this.

We can not like this, as we can not like Kinzo's support of male supremacy or George's idea of a woman's position in the family but really, we shouldn't expect them to act differently.
They act according to their culture and world and since we know Umineko is a Japanese work, written by a Japanese person and with as main characters Japanese people of a certain time we've to expect them to act in a certain way.
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Old 2011-12-14, 18:50   Link #26355
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You're imposing your moral values on him... with the problem he doesn't even know your opinion. He lives in a world where what he does is right.
We can disagree but it's a matter of mentality and moral values and we can't force them on him.
IMPOSING and JUDGING are too different things. I am JUDGING Battler. Battler is IMPOSING on Ange and trying to force her to go with what he wants. Nothing I can judge about Battler will effect his actions or his destiny in any way.

Quote:
If the truth weren't something bad then the whole 'we aren't telling Ange the truth because it would hurt her' would fall.
If Ange's parents did nothing wrong and the murder was person X there's no reason to shield Ange from this.
In this case I would agree that keeping silent on the matter hurt Ange more than it was worth and that she deserved to know the truth as soon as possible.
There's a middle ground. What if Maria helped Rosa commit murders, for instance?

Quote:
Well, technically she could have moved on anyway. She could have accepted it had been an incident.
Well DUH, but that's not consistent with Ange's personality. TECNICALLY Ange can choose not to kill herself no matter what the truth is, so if we're going this route, the whole "Let's protect Ange" argument is bullshit.

Quote:
Well, it could be that Kinzo really was a good grandfather and Eva loved her (prior to losing her son and husband and so on).
I seem to remember though he confirmed to her the scenery was a fantasy one because SHE COULDN'T BE ON ROKKENJIMA WITH THEM so this should imply that the scene they were seeing wasn't EXACTLY as things went... unless Ange really went on R Prime and somehow escaped from it (let's say with Eva) and she was the one who got amnesy about it? And everyone kept her in the dark about how she was there?
You are ridiculously nitpicky. Aside from Ange's presence, Battler was claiming that this was otherwise the truth. That everyone was behaving exactly as they would have in reality. It doesn't matter how close to the truth this might be, it was a deception.

Quote:
If in his world Ange is viewed as a kid regardless of the fact she's 18 it doesn't really matter she's 18.
Then Battler has no right to be deciding things for Ange because he's too far removed from her current world to know what's best for her.

Quote:
He can't know he should consider Ange as an adult because in his world she's not as such. This is not personal emotional comfort is his world mentality and, while we can disagree, I fear there are low chances he might see something wrong in it.
Yes, he can. He MET Ange when she was 18. He knows she's not six and should be able to acknowledge it.

Quote:
The fact that Ange doesn't recognize either of them as a parental figure doesn't allow them to say 'oh well, Ange, then do as you please, we don't care'.
Yes it does, technically. If we're going to go for the legal argument you love so much, people in Japan can file for legal independence at 13 and GET IT. There's a reason countless anime characters live alone without being called out on it.
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Old 2011-12-14, 18:54   Link #26356
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
IMPOSING and JUDGING are too different things. I am JUDGING Battler. Battler is IMPOSING on Ange and trying to force her to go with what he wants. Nothing I can judge about Battler will effect his actions or his destiny in any way.
WRONG! You might hurt RK07 feelings and make him change the plot, hence changing Battler
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Old 2011-12-14, 19:09   Link #26357
AuraTwilight
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That would be something he did of his own free will, not something I imposed by asking and demanding of him. I didn't even so much as suggest it to him. So it's still not IMPOSING.
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Old 2011-12-14, 19:36   Link #26358
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
IMPOSING and JUDGING are too different things. I am JUDGING Battler. Battler is IMPOSING on Ange and trying to force her to go with what he wants. Nothing I can judge about Battler will effect his actions or his destiny in any way.
But you're saying the correct way to act for Battler would be according your moral values. This would be fair if he were living in your country and had access to them and could chose if to follow them or not. He has access to the mentality of his own country therefore what he deems right is bound to be different from what you deem right.

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There's a middle ground. What if Maria helped Rosa commit murders, for instance?
That would be sad but I think it wouldn't crush Ange THAT much. Ange's biggest fear is for her parents (and Battler) to be the culprits. She's willing to accept Eva as culprit in hope her parents are innocent so I think she can deal with Rosa and Maria being culprits. It'll be merely a matter of switching the blame on another aunt and telling her that her little cousin was misguided or something like that.

Erika said she thought Ange might not survive reading the truth. This implies the truth is pretty bad. So, as much as I would like for the truth to be tame I think what she could read in the book was a pretty horrible truth. Maybe not the worst but surely VERY BAD.

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Well DUH, but that's not consistent with Ange's personality. TECNICALLY Ange can choose not to kill herself no matter what the truth is, so if we're going this route, the whole "Let's protect Ange" argument is bullshit.
And technically she can choose to kill herself even if she were to tell the truth.
The problem is we're making speculations. This makes everything we say a guess, a blue truth if you want, but not a red truth. Therefore any argument becomes irrelevant.
Ange has many options. We don't know which one we would have chosen so we can make speculations according to our beliefs which is fine and dandy but we can't say for sure what she would chose or what would have been better for her.

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You are ridiculously nitpicky. Aside from Ange's presence, Battler was claiming that this was otherwise the truth. That everyone was behaving exactly as they would have in reality. It doesn't matter how close to the truth this might be, it was a deception.
We don't know what had happened in Rokkenjima. It can be they had a happy halloween celebration... at first. Then maybe the kids went to bed, the adults had an arguments and started shooting people.

It should be clear to Ange that the scenery couldn't be taken as it was. She wasn't supposed to be there and Kinzo as well.
It's possible however that Krauss had declared Kinzo dead and that in the end Kinzo had decided to pass his final will before dying in which he claimed Krauss was the head and that he returned the gold to Yasu.
Or maybe Nanjo or Genji claimed that was Kinzo's final will though he hadn't written it down.
The family apparently took it well then the kids went to bed and shooting started.
Technically Battler's tale stop when Ange falls asleep and then it gets twisted by Bern.

Yes, I agree it's not the exact truth but since she knew which one were the lies I'll say it was fair game.

The real problem here is what had happened on Rokkenjima that day. Ep 6 presents a rather quiet scenery in which murders were a game... before Erika twisted it. Maybe really, in Rokkenjima nothing bad happened the first day... and Ange only saw the first day.

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Then Battler has no right to be deciding things for Ange because he's too far removed from her current world to know what's best for her.
It's a matter of opinion. He's still her relative, he still cares for her and she's still a minor. Legally he could claim custody on her.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, he can. He MET Ange when she was 18. He knows she's not six and should be able to acknowledge it.
Again, in his world she's legally a child.

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Yes it does, technically. If we're going to go for the legal argument you love so much, people in Japan can file for legal independence at 13 and GET IT. There's a reason countless anime characters live alone without being called out on it.
Ange however hadn't done it. As long as she doesn't they have the duty to take care for her.
I told you, if Ange was of major Ange I wouldn't discuss the fact she's free to do as she pleases. The same would apply if she were to have legal independence.

It would be her right.

But she as things are she doesn't have such right which can be sad and in other countries even wrong or illegal but in hers is perfectly fine.
That's something she should learn to deal with.
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Old 2011-12-14, 19:49   Link #26359
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This talk about imposing views should probably concern us toward each other more then Umineko characters per say. I guess there's not going to be much convincing those who think Ryuukishi messed up, not any more then the opposite for others who appreciate it. Then it moved into things like personal ethics and morals.

As it stands for I admit I'm sorta on a thin line in my appreciation myself. Depending on what "our confession" will "confess" about Rokkenjima Prime, I might have to leave Umineko in a way similar to Renall I guess.

There's ultimately so little real motives for mass murdering so many people, in fiction or real life, that a culprit of that better has quite the "heart" in the motives for me to bear with it. If Umineko was about protecting the identity of some "true evil" culprit (I mean the current Kyrie, George, Yasu or Battler culprit theories makes me feel more compassion and understanding for Takano, or even Kasumi) then I'm out.

Actually if Umineko was about uncovering the truth in Prime, Ryuukishi's going down the drain as author in my book.

At least comicket is drawing closer, so these answer should come soon. I should probably prepare to feel utter deception.
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Old 2011-12-14, 19:50   Link #26360
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But you're saying the correct way to act for Battler would be according your moral values. This would be fair if he were living in your country and had access to them and could chose if to follow them or not. He has access to the mentality of his own country therefore what he deems right is bound to be different from what you deem right.
It is not any more a Cultural Value that it is alright to hide the truth from people for their own good any more than it is an American Cultural Value or anywhere else.

Also I'm Japanese so your whole argument is invalid.

Quote:
And technically she can choose to kill herself even if she were to tell the truth.
The problem is we're making speculations. This makes everything we say a guess, a blue truth if you want, but not a red truth. Therefore any argument becomes irrelevant.
Then the only way we can find out is to tell her the truth. We might as well give her what she wants because we know what she'll do if she DOESN'T get it (suicide attempt), but we don't know how she'll react WITH it. The odds are in my side's favor.

Quote:
We don't know what had happened in Rokkenjima. It can be they had a happy halloween celebration... at first. Then maybe the kids went to bed, the adults had an arguments and started shooting people.
And Beatrice and Kanon and Shannon were all separate people and Kinzo was alive and gave Beatrice the gold and Krauss the headship?

Yea, I doubt it. Battler lied, there's no way around it.

Quote:
Yes, I agree it's not the exact truth but since she knew which one were the lies I'll say it was fair game.
NO, SHE DIDN'T. Battler kept TELLING her she didn't, and that what she learned from the media and the forgeries were wrong and she should just trust what he had to say. With that in mind, she doesn't have any choice but to take his story at face value without accusing Battler of being deceptive.

Quote:
It's a matter of opinion. He's still her relative, he still cares for her and she's still a minor. Legally he could claim custody on her.
No, he can't. 1986 Battler is dead, and Toya isn't mentally well enough to claim custody under Japanese law. Moreover, Ange can appeal for legal independence any time she wants and probably get it because no one's around to really insist otherwise.

Quote:
Again, in his world she's legally a child.
Battler is wrong, though. Therefore he is incorrect, morally. He is imposing paternalistic childhood expectations on someone who is not a child in any sense of the word. You do not understand Japanese law as well as you seem to think so, so this entire legal side of your argument is completely useless to you. I advise dropping it.

Quote:
Ange however hadn't done it. As long as she doesn't they have the duty to take care for her.
But she has the option, so they can't force anything on her and probably shouldn't. And Battler is in no position to be a caregiver for Ange whatsoever. Not even Meta-Battler is because he's not real in the strictest sense of the word.

Quote:
I told you, if Ange was of major Ange I wouldn't discuss the fact she's free to do as she pleases. The same would apply if she were to have legal independence.

It would be her right.

But she as things are she doesn't have such right which can be sad and in other countries even wrong or illegal but in hers is perfectly fine.
That's something she should learn to deal with.
She has the right EITHER WAY though. Children still have rights that supercede what their legal guardians might otherwise have in mind. More to the point, everyone in the discussion was talking about philosophical and moral senses of right and wrong, not legal ones. Legal rights and moralities are completely fucking useless and arbitrary in a discussion of philosophical Truth.
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