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Old 2009-10-25, 03:17   Link #2621
scwizard
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I don't like the idea of Rosa being the killer here. It's too simple almost. Also if she already had the key, why would half asleep Battler have heard her come into the room to get it right before he woke up? That would have had to have been an act, and if it was an act wouldn't she have been been louder, so that she'd have more witnesses to claim that she certainly didn't possess the key until then?

I'm still chipping away at episode two, but for now here's my theory for the chapel murders.

Beatrice comes into possession of the chapel key and unlocks the chapel before the start of the game. During the family conference, she appears before the attended adults, brings them to the chapel, and then kills them. Then she sneaks into Maria's room, and tells her to get dressed and come with her. Maria comes with Beatrice to the chapel. Then Beatrice tells Maria to open the envelope, lock the chapel door with the key inside, and help her paint the magic symbols on it. Maria does so gleefully. To show how thankful she is for all the help Beatrcie writes "Happy Halloween Maria" under the magic symbols. Then Beatrice reseals the envelope, with the seal ring (which she is obviously in possession of) and tells her that if she tells anyone what conspired this night, the magic will be ruined.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:19   Link #2622
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Magic has to exist in some form. How else are you going to explain the meta-world, colored text, and endless recursion of time without resorting to stupid things like It Was All Just a Dream and hallucinations?

I'm pretty positive we'll get a Happy End... really, what's the point, otherwise?
But the epitaph says Beatrice will be put to sleep for all time. That doesn't sound like a happy end to me.

I agree that the meta-world has to exist and is the source of the red text and endless recursion of time. I wouldn't mix the meta-world/purgatario and the magic world.

After episode 5, it's pretty clear that the magic world is just an illusion...

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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Beatrice comes into possession of the chapel key and unlocks the chapel before the start of the game. During the family conference, she appears before the attended adults, brings them to the chapel, and then kills them. Then she sneaks into Maria's room, and tells her to get dressed and come with her. Maria comes with Beatrice to the chapel. Then Beatrice tells Maria to open the envelope, lock the chapel door with the key inside, and help her paint the magic symbols on it. Maria does so gleefully. To show how thankful she is for all the help Beatrcie writes "Happy Halloween Maria" under the magic symbols. Then Beatrice reseals the envelope, with the seal ring (which she is obviously in possession of) and tells her that if she tells anyone what conspired this night, the magic will be ruined.
"Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!". This includes Maria herself.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2009-10-25 at 03:29.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:39   Link #2623
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
But the epitaph says Beatrice will be put to sleep for all time. That doesn't sound like a happy end to me.
A happy end for the family, I mean. Not for Beato. That's obviously not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I agree that the meta-world has to exist and is the source of the red text and endless recursion of time.
Random musings:

I think we can regard pretty much everything that happens in the meta-world as true, just true on a higher level than reality-as-we-know-it.

This would imply that any and all connections to magic the Ushiromiya family has only really exist within the meta-world.

...I wonder. Had Kinzo ever been there?

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
After episode 5, it's pretty clear that the magic world is just an illusion...
An illusion with elements of truth! And the stuff that happens in the magic world between meta-only characters (like the Beato/Lia fight) probably does happen in some way. In some way.

But yeah the magic world is fake.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:39   Link #2624
scwizard
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I don't buy that no one touched the key. I think it's supposed to be no one else's hands.

If it means that no one touched the key period, the whole time. Then the key could have not possibly been used, which would be silly. It would mean that Beato would have no reason to act all flustered when Battler asks him to repeat this in red, she would have just gone and repeated it.
Spoiler for image:

However I'm just speculating on the meaning based on the context. I'm assuming that I read what I thought I read when I first read that passage. If games with words are being played, and the meaning of that passage is different than my initial impression, then it's a bad translation, and a better translation would have been "Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, no one touched the key!!". "it passed through no one's hands!!" is a very vague and easy to misunderstand way of saying "no one touched it!!"

It would really be best to look at the Japanese of that red text. Anyone care to provide me with an analysis?

Last edited by scwizard; 2009-10-25 at 04:01.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:44   Link #2625
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
An illusion with elements of truth! And the stuff that happens in the magic world between meta-only characters (like the Beato/Lia fight) probably does happen in some way. In some way.
Yep, we need to understand what the magic scenes represent especially for episode 4 when it's all about the magic world.
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
I don't buy that no one touched the key. I think it's supposed to be no one else's hands.

If it means that no one touched the key period, the whole time. Then the key could have not possibly been used, which would be silly. It would mean that Beato would have no reason to act all flustered when Battler asks him to repeat this in red, she would have just gone and repeated it.
Spoiler for image:
真里亞の鍵は、真里亞受領後から翌日の楼座開封の瞬間まで、誰の手にも渡っていない!!

I don't think "no one else's hands" is a possible translation.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:47   Link #2626
scwizard
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More sneaky version of my theory. Instead of going and grabbing Maria from her room, and therefore risking discovery, Beatrice arranged to meet with Maria in front of the chapel in the middle of the night in advance.
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:53   Link #2627
scwizard
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Ahh, I think I see how this is being misinterpreted. If the Japanese is saying that during the time period, the key "passed to nobody's hands" or something like that. Meaning that the key did not change hands. However the key was already in Maria's hands. So the key didn't "pass" to anybody's hands, because it didn't pass from Maria's hands. She had it the whole time.

Is the Japanese text referring specifically to the key changing hands during the time period, or is it referring to someone touching the key with their hands during the time period?

Basically is it possible for Maria to take the key out of the envelope and unlock the chapel in the middle of the night without violating the Japanese red text?

EDIT: Under ssol's interpretation of the English, wouldn't it be possible for Jessica, who for the purpose of this example is really good with her feet, to take the key out of the envelope with her feet, lock the Chapel with her feet, and put the key back in the envelope with her feet?
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:59   Link #2628
Ssol
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Ahh, I think I see how this is being misinterpreted. If the Japanese is saying that during the time period, the key "passed to nobody's hands" or something like that. Meaning that the key did not change hands. However the key was already in Maria's hands. So the key didn't "pass" to anybody's hands, because it didn't pass from Maria's hands. She had it the whole time.

Is the Japanese text referring specifically to the key changing hands during the time period, or is it referring to someone touching the key with their hands during the time period?

Basically is it possible for Maria to take the key out of the envelope and unlock the chapel in the middle of the night without violating the Japanese red text?
The red text was in response to when Battler said, "Someone secretly borrowed Maria's key, and secretly returned it to Maria's bag after the crime was over!!". I pretty sure that the subject was key itself and not the envelope that contained the key. Beatrice let him get away with the theory you presented in episode 2 but I think this red from episode 4 pretty much eliminates the possibility of anyone touching that key for the time period specified.

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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
EDIT: Under ssol's interpretation of the English, wouldn't it be possible for Jessica, who for the purpose of this example is really good with her feet, to take the key out of the envelope with her feet, lock the Chapel with her feet, and put the key back in the envelope with her feet?
Nice. The culrpit used their feet to unlock the door with the key!

As I said, based on the blue Battler used prior to the red text the subject was the key, so the key passed through no one's hands.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:10   Link #2629
scwizard
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The red text I'm referring to is the red text from episode four:
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

If this red text means that the key did not change hands, that means that Maria is the only one who could have used it. Since the key is in her hands (hands being a metaphor for possession in this case).

If the red text means that the key was not in anybody's hands, then if hands is being used as a metaphor for possession, then the red text contradicts itself. Because it says that Maria revived the key (meaning that she came into possession of it), but that after she recived the key, the key was in no one's possession.

If the red text means that the key was no in anybody's hands, and hands in meant in the literal sense, then it's saying that nobody touched the key with their hands during the time period. If this is what the red text is saying, then I submit two theories:
1. Jessica used her feet to steal the key, unlock the door and kill everyone.
2. Maria was wearing gloves during the scenario I previously described, so as to not leave fingerprints on the key. Therefore technically the key was touching her gloves, not her hands.

Seriously though, my opinion is that "hands" is meant in the metaphorical, and not the literal sense in the phrase: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

If my opinion is incorrect then I have another opinion. And that opinion is that the translation does a poor job of conveying that "hands" is meant literally in that phrase.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:20   Link #2630
Ssol
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
The red text I'm referring to is the red text from episode four:
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

If this red text means that the key did not change hands, that means that Maria is the only one who could have used it. Since the key is in her hands (hands being a metaphor for possession in this case).

If the red text means that the key was not in anybody's hands, then if hands is being used as a metaphor for possession, then the red text contradicts itself. Because it says that Maria revived the key (meaning that she came into possession of it), but that after she recived the key, the key was in no one's possession.

If the red text means that the key was no in anybody's hands, and hands in meant in the literal sense, then it's saying that nobody touched the key with their hands during the time period. If this is what the red text is saying, then I submit two theories:
1. Jessica used her feet to steal the key, unlock the door and kill everyone.
2. Maria was wearing gloves during the scenario I previously described, so as to not leave fingerprints on the key. Therefore technically the key was touching her gloves, not her hands.

Seriously though, my opinion is that "hands" is meant in the metaphorical, and not the literal sense in the phrase: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

If my opinion is incorrect then I have another opinion. And that opinion is that the translation does a poor job of conveying that "hands" is meant literally in that phrase.
No one is saying that "hands" has to be interpreted as the body part connected to the forarm.

Again, no one took that key out of the envelope after Maria received it. It stays inside the envelope until Rosa opened it the next day.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:22   Link #2631
scwizard
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As you admitted hands refers to possession, and not to hands in the literal sense. Therefore Maria, who is the possessor of the key, is allowed to take the key out of the envelope and use it to unlock the chapel.

"Passing through hands" is a phrase that refers to the changing of possession. So if I say a jacket "passed through my hands" that means I once possessed the jacket and no longer do. If the key "passed through no one's hands" that means that it did not change possession. That it was in Maria's possession from the time it was given to her, to the time it was taken from her. It does NOT mean that she didn't use it during the time she was in possession of it.

In fact it goes further, it means that during that time Maria is the ONLY person who could have used the key. That red text elevates "Maria locked the chapel behind Beatrice" from a strong theory to the only possible theory that includes the murders taking place during the time period the red text talks about.

Foolish Beatrice, you thought you could construct a closed room by giving the key to your closest ally. Next time try leaving the key locked up inside the room, or giving it to the detective.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:26   Link #2632
Ssol
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
As you admitted hands refers to possession, and not to hands in the literal sense. Therefore Maria, who is the possessor of the key, is allowed to take the key out of the envelope and use it to unlock the chapel.

I think "passing through hands" is a phrase that refers to the changing of possession. So if I say a jacket "passed through my hands" that means I once possessed the jacket and no longer do. If the key "passed through no one's hands" that means that it did not change possession.
But you cannot quote me as saying hands refers to possession because I never wrote that.

I think "it passed through no one's hands" means no one opened the envelope and touched the key.

Again, it does not say "it passed through no one else's hands" it says "it passed through no one's hands".
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:36   Link #2633
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
As you admitted hands refers to possession, and not to hands in the literal sense. Therefore Maria, who is the possessor of the key, is allowed to take the key out of the envelope and use it to unlock the chapel.

"Passing through hands" is a phrase that refers to the changing of possession. So if I say a jacket "passed through my hands" that means I once possessed the jacket and no longer do. If the key "passed through no one's hands" that means that it did not change possession.
The letter was sealed when Rosa opened it in the morning. In order for your theory to work, after Maria unlocked and relocked the chapel for the culprit, she would have had to reseal the envelope herself. Even assuming she could do this, why wouldn't the culprit do it themselves? The culprit doesn't know anything about meta logic, so there's no reason for them to go through weird contortions in order to dodge the red.

Involving Maria makes the whole process unnecessarily complicated. I'll say it again: Beatrice never claimed that the chapel was locked in the first place. She just allowed Battler to think that it was. From the time Maria received the envelope until Rosa unsealed it the next morning, the door to the chapel was unlocked, and anyone at all could have gone in or out. The status of the key is irrelevant.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:39   Link #2634
scwizard
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There are three meanings to
Metaphorical: "pass through hands" = "change possession from pronoun's possession"
Literal: "pass through hands" = "pass through" = leave
"hands" = what we have at the ends of our arms
Super literal: "pass through" = move through "hands" = what we have at the ends of our arms

The metaphorical means that there is no one who had the key change possession from them to another person. Meaning that who possessed the key did not change.
The literal means that the key did not leave the literal hands of Maria.
The super literal means that the key did not phase through the hands of any person. (lolwut)

I can't think of any interpretation that implies that the key was not touched.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:40   Link #2635
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
From the time Maria received the envelope until Rosa unsealed it the next morning, the door to the chapel was unlocked, and anyone at all could have gone in or out. The status of the key is irrelevant.
When they went to the chapel the door was locked. Therefore, the chapel had to have been locked prior to when Maria received the key from Beatrice.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:41   Link #2636
scwizard
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The letter was sealed when Rosa opened it in the morning. In order for your theory to work, after Maria unlocked and relocked the chapel for the culprit, she would have had to reseal the envelope herself. Even assuming she could do this, why wouldn't the culprit do it themselves? The culprit doesn't know anything about meta logic, so there's no reason for them to go through weird contortions in order to dodge the red.

Involving Maria makes the whole process unnecessarily complicated. I'll say it again: Beatrice never claimed that the chapel was locked in the first place. She just allowed Battler to think that it was. From the time Maria received the envelope until Rosa unsealed it the next morning, the door to the chapel was unlocked, and anyone at all could have gone in or out. The status of the key is irrelevant.
Hmm you're right. For Beatrice to reseal the envelope with the key, she would have to take the key from Maria, which would violate the red.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:44   Link #2637
LyricalAura
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When they went to the chapel the door was locked. Therefore, the chapel had to have been locked prior to when Maria received the ket from Beatrice.
Correction: when Rosa met Genji at the chapel, Genji claimed that the door was locked. At that point, Rosa went back to the guesthouse and got the key from Maria's handbag. Note that she shouldn't have had any idea it was there. Then she went back to the chapel and supposedly used it to unlock the door. Battler did not see any of this. All he observed was that Rosa entered the guesthouse and then left again. By the time he got to the chapel, the door was already open.
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Old 2009-10-25, 04:46   Link #2638
scwizard
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Does Beatrice resealing the envelope with the key really count as the key passing through her hands?

To "pass through" means to leave. So I would argue that if Beatrice stands next to Maria and reseals the envelope, the key does not leave Maria's possession. It's a shaky argument though.

The reason I stick by it, is that if the key never left the envelope, I think Beatrice would love to declare that in red. Instead though you get this:
Spoiler for image:

Beatrice's reaction to this strongly implies that the key was actually used.

EDIT: What if Maria holds the letter against the wall, and Beatrice hits it with her ring resealing it? This is actually pretty likely. After the door was locked, they were standing outside the chapel. You need the letter to be held against a surface so that you can press your ring to it to reseal the wax seal. The closest available surface is the wall of the chapel. Maria holds the the letter against the wall of the chapel and pulls the flap back down. Beatrice presses her ring against the broken seal, pushing the wax back together and resealing it.

Last edited by scwizard; 2009-10-25 at 05:00.
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Old 2009-10-25, 05:06   Link #2639
Ssol
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Correction: when Rosa met Genji at the chapel, Genji claimed that the door was locked. At that point, Rosa went back to the guesthouse and got the key from Maria's handbag. Note that she shouldn't have had any idea it was there. Then she went back to the chapel and supposedly used it to unlock the door. Battler did not see any of this. All he observed was that Rosa entered the guesthouse and then left again. By the time he got to the chapel, the door was already open.
That's right, Genji could have lied about it being locked. But then what if Rosa decides to check to make sure it's locked and finds that it's unlocked? That seems too risky to me.

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EDIT: What if Maria holds the letter against the wall, and Beatrice hits it with her ring resealing it?
Sorry, even if passed through meant change of possession as you said Maria and Beatrice would have to behave strangely during the resealing process to avoid the red text. No one used that key during the time period specified by the red text.
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Old 2009-10-25, 05:14   Link #2640
scwizard
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I don't think it's strange way of acting at all. You'd need to have the letter held up against the wall to reseal it in such a situation. Asking the young child for the letter, or taking it from them, wouldn't be the most tactful thing to do, since the letter is a precious possession of theirs. The most polite way to get the letter resealed would be to ask the child to do you a favor and hold it up against the wall.

For instance, say someone has a daughter and she just wrote a letter to Santa. Isn't it easy to imagine a endearing scene where that someone leans over to put a stamp on the letter their precious daughter just wrote? It seems much more loving than asking coldly for them to hand over the letter so that it can be stamped.
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