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Old 2011-12-16, 17:40   Link #26421
UsagiTenpura
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I'm not certain but I believe the 1.5 km crater is not a confirmed thing.
I'm not saying there wasn't an explosion, but rather that, by the nature of the actual explosion, there might be something about it that makes it more apparent it's an accidental explosion then a 900 ton bomb would (and more credible to the press).

Now it's a terrain (explosions) that I really don't know well so I'm not in a very good situation to put suggestions. However one thing that always was apparent to me is that you need to climb a lot to reach the mansion and the guesthouse. A much smaller explosion sound like it could've caused a landslide that obliterated everything in the inhabitable region of Rokkenjima. It also at least seems to make the accidental explosion theory more credible. However I have no idea if such a thing is actually possible.
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Old 2011-12-16, 18:00   Link #26422
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whether the crater is 1km wide as the tea party claim or just half of that it's still an incredibly huge crater. But you need at least that much to justify the total destruction of the Mansion, the guesthouse and the chapel.

At any rate I really doubt that the crater in Rokkenjima Prime isn't that big. Ange should be aware of what is the official version of what happened on Rokkenjima, and therefore Bern wouldn't be so stupid to present her a scenario that wouldn't fit with what was known to her.

Even if that Tea party is completely messed up, at the very least the information that can be easily confirmed (or denied) from outside the catbox should be true.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:01   Link #26423
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I was under the impression that there was a discrepency between the memories of Ange and ANGE, the later being obviously the one seeing the arc 7 tea party.

Ange should normally know what she saw in Kuwabata's storehouse.
ANGE couldn't remember it in arc 6.

My impression is that ANGE doesn't have information that didn't appear in the stories, so I don't think she has any more idea then us about whatever occurred in prime.

Edit: I want to bring up a ridiculous version of ShKanon that I'm not seriously considering, but I can already see some people saying it wouldn't make less sense then the real thing anyway. It's simple enough too: Everyone (beside Battler) actually knows/figured out long ago that Shannon = Kanon but they find it way too awkward to bring it up, as thus Yasu herself doesn't know that everyone else does know.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-17 at 02:25.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:31   Link #26424
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Ange should normally know what she saw in Kuwabata's storehouse.
ANGE couldn't remember it in arc 6.

My impression is that ANGE doesn't have information that didn't appear in the stories, so I don't think she has any more idea then us about whatever occurred in prime.
I think you have Ange and ANGE backwards; that, and within EP6 Ange keeps rapidly shifting between her two selves so who the fuck knows.

Quote:
Edit: I want to bring up a ridiculous version of ShKanon that I'm not seriously considering, but I can already see some people saying it wouldn't make less sense then the real thing anyway. It's simple enough too: Everyone (beside Battler) actually knows/figured out long ago that Shannon = Kanon but they find it way too awkward to bring it up, as thus Yasu herself doesn't know that everyone else does know.
And Krauss and Natsuhi don't mind giving two paychecks to the same shitty waitress because....?
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:44   Link #26425
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And Krauss and Natsuhi don't mind giving two paychecks to the same shitty waitress because....?
Because they have a better sense of humor then you.
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Old 2011-12-17, 02:59   Link #26426
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I

Edit: I want to bring up a ridiculous version of ShKanon that I'm not seriously considering, but I can already see some people saying it wouldn't make less sense then the real thing anyway. It's simple enough too: Everyone (beside Battler) actually knows/figured out long ago that Shannon = Kanon but they find it way too awkward to bring it up, as thus Yasu herself doesn't know that everyone else does know.
There's a problem i can think of from this theory. Did George and Jessica knows that Shannon and Kanon are the same person? That creates a problem right there.


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And Krauss and Natsuhi don't mind giving two paychecks to the same shitty waitress because....?
If they have known that Shannon= Kanon then there's no point for them to give that person two paychecks . Wait did they even gave Yasu a paycheck ?
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Old 2011-12-17, 03:10   Link #26427
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Because they have a better sense of humor then you.
They're going broke. I don't think either of them are in the mood for a joke.

Way to be an asshole and insult me for making a legitimate criticism by the way.

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If they have known that Shannon= Kanon then there's no point for them to give that person two paychecks . Wait did they even gave Yasu a paycheck ?
Yes, Yasu has a paycheck; she bought mystery books before she solved the Epitaph.
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Old 2011-12-17, 04:15   Link #26428
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Yes, Yasu has a paycheck; she bought mystery books before she solved the Epitaph.
Not sure about that. I thought Yasu just burrowed books from Kumasawa.


Random theory.

I think Eva's diary was a fake and someone just create a lie regarding the diary. It's possible that someone deduced something like If Maria have a diary then Eva must have one too. In reality Eva never really have one. But that person didn't drop the idea though. So after Eva's death that certain person created a Diary that he/she claimed to be Eva's diary. That person even told them that the truth of Rokkenjima incident was written on it. But what's really written is just a fan-fiction.
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Old 2011-12-17, 04:22   Link #26429
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Not sure about that. I thought Yasu just burrowed books from Kumasawa.
Initially, yes. And Kumasawa's supply didn't last forever. It's not like she's confined to the island.

Besides, aside from being young, Krauss and Natsuhi believe she is a normal servant. Why WOULDN'T she get a paycheck, and why wouldn't Yasu complain or atleast bring it up in passing or get bullied about it or something?

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I think Eva's diary was a fake and someone just create a lie regarding the diary.
Red truth.
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Old 2011-12-17, 08:25   Link #26430
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That's a very difficult question to answer for me. Featherinne used the red truth about Eva's diary, but what world was she referring to? And what kind of trickery Ruukishi could have imagined this time to render it meaningless?

In the end we also have a red truth that states that Ange would never meet Battler ever again. Another personality trick I guess because technically Battler is still alive from a few other phylosophical approaches on the issue (and who says that the personality one is the TRUTH? Who decided that?)

Featherinne might have just been talking about the metaphysical diary that Ange gets from the chapel (which by the way it was supposed to be a story Battler wrote for Beatrice in EP6, and the personofication of Beatrice herself in EP7, how the hell it became Eva's diary in EP8?)

Even then we can find another loophole. If it's a meta-diary and not a real diary existing on Rokkenjima the truth of which world is it containing?

I know that all these questions show a basic lack of trust on Ryuukishi. But can we really trust him at this point? Can we really trust his red truths? I wish we could, but I don't think that we can do that with confidence after all the things he did with it.
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Old 2011-12-17, 10:25   Link #26431
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
They're going broke. I don't think either of them are in the mood for a joke.

Way to be an asshole and insult me for making a legitimate criticism by the way.
Perhaps if you weren't so insulting in 90% of your replies that wouldn't happen, think of that next time you dislike someone's theory, it's by no means any reason to sound insulting about it.

That said, what I wrote was obvious not very serious, I was really just bringing up the point that facing ShKanon about the truth would be exremly akward.
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Old 2011-12-17, 13:21   Link #26432
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I know that I'm far from the first person to suggest something like this, and I'm not certain about a lot of details; but now there is no doubt in my mind that an innocent murder game/prank is at the center of these mysteries.

I was showing the Umineko anime to my friend yesterday, and what really struck me was that once I was thinking about Maria's behavior in the context of the murders all being fake, her falsely sinister atmosphere felt exactly the same as the falsely sinister atmosphere around Rena in Onikakushi-hen. Maria is not insane. She acts like the murders are just a game not because she's delusional, but because they really are just a game and she knows it. I'm thinking all of Legend's murders were fake, from start to finish. Turn's probably as well. Not a single person really died even once in those stories. When XXX is dead was spoken, it was entirely within context of the game... which might seem like an erroneous idea but, if you think about it, it's very similar to Kanon is dead. They are all just murder game characters; it's not sometimes "personality death" and sometimes "real death", but across the board it's always "game death" whether it's Krauss playing possum or Kanon disappearing or whatever. It's similar to how Reds like "When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit" can only be 'game rules' that can have no authority in real life. Murder Game Theory covers motives pretty well, too. The questions are "Who was in on what, and when?" and "Did real killings occur and, if they did, when?"

It also puts a new spin on Erika. Let's say she knows it's a murder game; she knows that no one actually died in End, but is merely trying to win the game by creating a human explanation for the "murders". This idea explains how she can be so intelligent but yet not be interested in corpses, because she'd rather win the game than expose it. Even in episode 6, her "killing" the 5 fakers never happened except in the context of the game. Maybe her "killing" them was just a hypothetical: "But what if I did this? You know I could have, so I say you're obligated have to come up with an explanation." Or it's something like she just walked up to the fakers and said "tag, you're decapitated" without actually killing them. In either case, it all of the sudden makes Erika not so evil at all (even Piece-Erika in EP6); she might be snobby, but she's just playing an innocent game.

I'm thinking that what happened on R-Prime started with an innocent murder game. However, the game was so realistic that the victim(s) of the prank thought that the murders were real. Combined with the appearance of the mountain of gold and other factors, there was an atmosphere of intense paranoia. Someone snapped and actually killed someone else in what they thought was self-defense (maybe it was even Battler himself, which would explain the suppression of his memory, especially if he later found out that it was all just a game which he killed for... I mean, how fucked up would that be?) Things got out of control, and there finally ended up a situation where, between a combination of fake murders and real killings, someone misunderstood themselves to be the only person left on the island and flipped the switch to cover the evidence. This of course covers motive for everyone, and it explains Yasu's sense of responsibility for the incident. It can even explain how Maria and Gohda can be killed (someone thought they were dead already). However, it's still hard to see someone knowing about the bomb switch but not the murder game. It also makes Yasu's survival, which I have long believed, hard to explain. And there's also that Eva and Battler both seemed to avoid the blast independently.
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Old 2011-12-17, 14:19   Link #26433
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Well welcome to the club Wanderer, that's what I've been thinking for a long while, except I'm not so sure Erika didn't actually killed the people in EP6 (even if she did, she still killed characters in a game, anyway).

I know in the past I've been saying that "dead" in the contest of umineko could just mean "dead" as a player. Like people playing a RPG and saying "nooo, I'm dead!" "yes, I killed you!"

Still it's not clear if that's the case and you can say that in red. If it's so, then there must be some kind of rule that prevents "dead" player to affect the game board. In other words once they are "dead" they must act as dead for the whole duration of the game. Sort of like paintball, except you can't move at all (it must suck).

This second possibility however would lead to a very mindboggling scenario:

people can "fake" to be dead even if they are not "dead", and by "dead" I mean not really "dead" but "dead" like in a game. @_@

Well, that's more or less what Mion did in that zombie game in Higurashi.
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Old 2011-12-17, 14:54   Link #26434
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If they have known that Shannon= Kanon then there's no point for them to give that person two paychecks . Wait did they even gave Yasu a paycheck ?
Look, I know she's technically family and all, but making someone do work and not paying them is slavery, dude. What is this, Tsukihime?

But yeah, I don't think Shkanon ever existed in the real world because even if Krauss had a good humor about it, he's also flat broke, and two paychecks is a little much.

Unless she was working two shifts. Then it's a clever way to avoid paying time and a half.

Aha! I've cracked it! Yasu played at being Shannon and Kanon as a favor for Krauss and Natsuhi, since paying one servant for two shifts would require them to pay her overtime rates!
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:06   Link #26435
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Well welcome to the club Wanderer, that's what I've been thinking for a long while, except I'm not so sure Erika didn't actually killed the people in EP6 (even if she did, she still killed characters in a game, anyway).

I know in the past I've been saying that "dead" in the contest of umineko could just mean "dead" as a player. Like people playing a RPG and saying "nooo, I'm dead!" "yes, I killed you!"
I also like this setup, although you could pull some other really mean tricks besides the one you mentioned. When someone is "killed" in the game, they aren't supposed to affect the game anymore as their game character, but that doesn't actually physically prevent them from doing anything. They could:
  • Play another character. This would cover things like Shannon and Kannon being played by Yasu, but also making dead people be magical extras, like having Hideyoshi stand in as a goat butler.
  • Sneak around secretly. They could eavesdrop on "living" players, kibitz with the other "dead" players, or, say, break into Krauss's office and steal his records.
  • Make a mistake. If someone sneaks off to Krauss's office, someone might come back to inspect the "corpse" and find it gone, not realizing that the disappearance wasn't part of the game. Or they might find the lock broken on the office and wonder how it could have happened when all the "living" people were together. Or...
  • Cheat. If there were some incentive to interfere with the game's outcome, a "corpse" might get up and move itself to another room deliberately. If the cheating wasn't noticed, then the other players would believe it was a legitimate development, and they'd be left trying to explain an impossible corpse teleportation.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-12-17 at 15:34.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:26   Link #26436
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Perhaps if you weren't so insulting in 90% of your replies that wouldn't happen, think of that next time you dislike someone's theory, it's by no means any reason to sound insulting about it.
Perhaps you're reading more insults into what I say than is actually there; I don't attack actual people on principle, unless they initiate it, and with the internet, it's impossible to read vocal tone.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:32   Link #26437
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Well this setup makes some sense but at the same time...
I mean what exactly is this, Yasu is writing stories about theorical games that the entire family would play, and then they really played it and it went badly and everyone died (and tho it's a game there really is a bomb?). Well it's not really making less sense then current scenario I guess, but I really wonder if this is the case is a Rokkenjima prime even necessary?
Considering the red tho, I've theorized before that it applies to the narrative itself and not the true reality (as in, Beatrice is trying to tell a story through the whole of the narrative).

But yeah it makes a lot of sense nonetheless when thinking about the "I saw Kanon but it wasn't Kanon" thing from arc 2.
That just means that you see visually what you accept as such, which makes the ShKanon trick much easier too.
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Old 2011-12-17, 15:39   Link #26438
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Murder Game Theory covers motives pretty well, too. The questions are "Who was in on what, and when?" and "Did real killings occur and, if they did, when?"
You could make an alternate interpretation of Will's answers on this basis. "Illusion to illusion" could be game-related faking, and "earth to earth" could be real murders.
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Old 2011-12-17, 16:49   Link #26439
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This second possibility however would lead to a very mindboggling scenario:

people can "fake" to be dead even if they are not "dead", and by "dead" I mean not really "dead" but "dead" like in a game. @_@
Yeah it's complicated. Now we have the fiction layer being split into a fiction-reality layer and a fiction-game layer. As if Umineko didn't have enough layers already. Makes it hard to talk about.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I also like this setup, although you could pull some other really mean tricks besides the one you mentioned. When someone is "killed" in the game, they aren't supposed to affect the game anymore as their game character, but that doesn't actually physically prevent them from doing anything. They could:
  • Play another character. This would cover things like Shannon and Kannon being played by Yasu, but also making dead people be magical extras, like having Hideyoshi stand in as a goat butler.
  • Sneak around secretly. They could eavesdrop on "living" players, kibitz with the other "dead" players, or, say, break into Krauss's office and steal his records.
  • Make a mistake. If someone sneaks off to Krauss's office, someone might come back to inspect the "corpse" and find it gone, not realizing that the disappearance wasn't part of the game. Or they might find the lock broken on the office and wonder how it could have happened when all the "living" people were together. Or...
  • Cheat. If there were some incentive to interfere with the game's outcome, a "corpse" might get up and move itself to another room deliberately. If the cheating wasn't noticed, then the other players would believe it was a legitimate development, and they'd be left trying to explain an impossible corpse teleportation.
But even with all this, in context of the game everything should remain possible by human means. So even if Yasu gets help from people whose characters are "dead", she's can only allow occurrences that "living" characters could conceivably cause.

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You could make an alternate interpretation of Will's answers on this basis. "Illusion to illusion" could be game-related faking, and "earth to earth" could be real murders.
The motive of Yasu or whoever for the 4th,5th,6th Twilights in Turn is particularly difficult to explain with this.
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Old 2011-12-17, 17:14   Link #26440
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I guess I'm the only one who's weird enough to think there were to people involved in the games but the characters we saw were merely characters of a tale or of a roleplay and not real people with real feelings or real freedom of action and, apart from having them to stay 'in character' Battler and Beato (or Bern or Lambda or Erika) could move them as they preferred... were 'move' means merely saying what they were doing and, according to how detailed they were or weren't they could or couldn't retroactively add details to their actions...
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