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Old 2011-12-22, 08:17   Link #26561
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Anyhow, I think this whole deal is the point of truth and magic in Umineko. Truth is basically a magic killer. So, if you want to protect the magic, then you must seal the truth. You have many references to this. Like say, Ronove's "love is an illusion" or Erika killing the magic of her love by chasing the truth. Maria and Kinzo are the biggest examples of truth and magic.
Didn't Ange demonstrated that opening the catbox doesn't necessarily kills magic for those who value it at the end of EP8?

She knew the truth she saw the red truth and she was still able to believe.
Sure those who don't care about magic will only see the truth then, but why is that wrong? Let those who care about magic see the magic and let those who care about the truth see the truth. Why pushing your ideals onto others?


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The Gameboard that we see is a version of the Gamemaster's story "distorted" by the Player's interpretation. It's kind of like a game of telephone from Beatrice to Battler to us-the-readers. Or you can look at it as something similar to the "Observer effect" in physics: A story cannot be read without interpreting (changing) it. Either way, the truth contained in the story's origin remains untouched. Even if we cannot observe it directly it does not mean we should give up on it.
There is only one way we can know the truth that Ryuukishi had in mind when he wrote his story: he needs to tell us. We can only guess or try to deduce it, but we can never go past that point, and I'll be damned if I'll spend my whole life in doing that. There must be a time when the reader must say: okay I did all the guesswork I could do, now it's the time to know if I guessed right or wrong.

That's not giving up, that's moving on. Spending your whole life on a single mystery is stupid, and I doubt that even you will still think about it 20 years from now.

And if you think that simply by thinkinging over and over you'll reach the truth with certainty in the end I fear you are following a delusion. There is a reason the word "overthinking" exists, thinking a lot doesn't always produce better results. You might just get farther from the truth than you originally were, you'll never know.

You need to understand that what you are doing here isn't a scientific method. Science only works because there are means to validate or falsify theories. You have no way to do that unless Ryuukishi himself speaks.
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Old 2011-12-22, 08:55   Link #26562
Thanatos of Crows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Didn't Ange demonstrated that opening the catbox doesn't necessarily kills magic for those who value it at the end of EP8?

She knew the truth she saw the red truth and she was still able to believe.
Sure those who don't care about magic will only see the truth then, but why is that wrong? Let those who care about magic see the magic and let those who care about the truth see the truth. Why pushing your ideals onto others?
Yup, that's Golden Truth for ya
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Old 2011-12-22, 09:23   Link #26563
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You know, I'm really really beginning to think that it was Battler who killed everyone somehow. He was fooled by Yasu's carefully orchestrated murder game and couldn't trust people and his paranoia somehow triggered the real killings. And I think this may be why Meta-Battler has this complex about not wanting to suspect or blame anyone (even people he hardly knows, like Gohda or Kanon)... because that's exactly what he did on Rokkenjima and it's what got everyone killed. It truly was the right thing to just believe in the witch.

Also, it makes the lolamnesia a lot more believable if he learned that he killed his whole family out of a misunderstanding. That'd fuck me up for sure.

Anyway, just a pet theory. Hard to explain how it could happen.
That would explain why Battler wants to protect everyone else, but there is a flaw in that approach: Specifically, that Battler is still protecting his own integrity by obfuscating his own guilt. Worse, he's allowing Beatrice to take the fall for him, even though many Witch Hunters don't believe it.

If Battler was, even accidentally, responsible for any killings, he's guilty. Not of murder, exactly, but he's guilty of something. To then not confess to this and take the rap means he's created an environment inside the catbox where everyone might be guilty, then cloaked it in a seemingly noble motive to protect his family while ignoring that he himself doesn't deserve that protection. Indeed, if he were guilty and simply confessed, his relatives wouldn't need to be protected. The only person his actions serve is himself.

Which is fine for Tohya, as he can be excused for not confessing if he simply doesn't realize what happened. But it's potentially reprehensible for a BATTLER who "knows the truth."

Although incidentally this makes the solution to ep4 very easy.
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Old 2011-12-22, 11:05   Link #26564
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
If no one was guilty, then there wasn't really anything to hide. He could have disclosed the truths without having to add rubbish, because there would have been no actual reason to keep any cat box. If he really wanted to give them a happy ending, he could have said they all went to heaven and that's it. However, the cat box clearly existed to conceal several things.
The catbox exists to allow for a multitude of parallel outcome, not to hide something. I'm not even talking about Umineko as much as the purpose of the original thought experiment too, but it remains how you're supposed to take it at the base.

Quote:
As I've said, during the 1st 4 episodes, we saw Battler resolute to find the culprit, bring it to justice and save his family. However, in the same fashion, he was reluctant to doubt any of his relatives. So, if in addition to a culprit (assuming whatever happened in R. Prime was planned) there were other killers - basically, anything similar to what we saw on EP7's Tea Party or even on Bern's game in EP8, then Battler had rather good reasons to keep the truth concealed.
He's not even nearly doing that. He's trying to prove two things, both very hard.
1) Murders weren't done with magic.
2) He wants to avoid almost at all cost having to name a single culprit.

Spoiler for Battler arc 3:


Quote:
If he could keep the sins concealed, he could protect the illusion everyone was a good happy person doing things happy families do whenever they go to grandpa's.
"We don't know what happened" ----> "a murder has to have happened" ----> "it has to be murder committed by humans following the rules of mystery" -----> "Battler is the culprit".

Yeah... I'll choose to believe in everyone, even that George that everyone hates. I won't use anyone as sacrifice because after 8 arcs, it's still possible to reach a "no culprit" theory.
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Old 2011-12-22, 11:28   Link #26565
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
He's not even nearly doing that. He's trying to prove two things, both very hard.
1) Murders weren't done with magic.
2) He wants to avoid almost at all cost having to name a single culprit.
Actually, you'll notice he's just saying he refuses to suspect anyone else (although he says 18 people, which would theoretically include himself, but I don't think that's what he meant; I think he meant "those others among the 18 people"). Arc 1-4 Battler simply never even considers suspecting himself. Granted, in the games presented it hardly appears to make sense, but the natural logical outcome of his two premises - (1) murders aren't magic, (2) none of my relatives or the servants could be guilty - is the inevitable conclusion "I'm the only person who could have done it."

Even if Battler himself can't draw that conclusion, surely Tohya would have at least considered it.

EDIT: I wonder if we could actually solve ep1-4 with Battler Culprit theories if we tried considering everyone but Battler reliable perspectives.
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Old 2011-12-22, 11:41   Link #26566
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually, you'll notice he's just saying he refuses to suspect anyone else (although he says 18 people, which would theoretically include himself, but I don't think that's what he meant; I think he meant "those others among the 18 people"). Arc 1-4 Battler simply never even considers suspecting himself. Granted, in the games presented it hardly appears to make sense, but the natural logical outcome of his two premises - (1) murders aren't magic, (2) none of my relatives or the servants could be guilty - is the inevitable conclusion "I'm the only person who could have done it."

Even if Battler himself can't draw that conclusion, surely Tohya would have at least considered it.

EDIT: I wonder if we could actually solve ep1-4 with Battler Culprit theories if we tried considering everyone but Battler reliable perspectives.
So... Rokkenjima is actually full of witches and magical beings and Kinzo is a real fantasy ghost thing... However none of them are the culprit, Battler is and committed murder with human means???
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Old 2011-12-22, 11:43   Link #26567
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
So... Rokkenjima is actually full of witches and magical beings and Kinzo is a real fantasy ghost thing... However none of them are the culprit, Battler is and committed murder with human means???
That's not what I meant, I meant they're reliable in that things that happened in the fantasy scenes are metaphorically true and not merely some kind of lie spun.

However, your idea would make a much better story.
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Old 2011-12-22, 12:00   Link #26568
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's not what I meant, I meant they're reliable in that things that happened in the fantasy scenes are metaphorically true and not merely some kind of lie spun.

However, your idea would make a much better story.
Well if you think of Higurashi...
Hanyuu is a real fantasy being thing and Rika really has something supernatural to her.
But in Onikakushi at least, the main character is the culprit.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-22 at 12:49.
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Old 2011-12-22, 12:06   Link #26569
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Silly as it may be, we don't actually know anything about R-Prime, so perhaps R-Prime is a magical world where Kinzo really was a wizard, his black blood really does run in his family's veins, demons and witches really do hold court on Rokkenjima... and Battler, with his powerful magic denial, resolves to create a human-capable murder mystery which has the appearance of a magical ritual.

Why doesn't anyone find the explosion unusual? Because magic is real, a magical explosion of that magnitude could totally happen given the concentration of power in that place.
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Old 2011-12-22, 12:52   Link #26570
UsagiTenpura
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Why not?
Battler could've caused it without even realizing so. The epitaph murder thing is actually a sort of ritual dance that results in casting that explosion.
Or else it's simply the energy that was unleashed when Battler became Golden/Endless Wizard himself.


I wish that theory could actually be supported by now...
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Old 2011-12-22, 14:50   Link #26571
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
~~~
I theorize because I find it fun. If I figure something out, all the better.

And if you like the scientific method so much, you really shouldn't bother with this forum or even Umineko at all.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which is fine for Tohya, as he can be excused for not confessing if he simply doesn't realize what happened. But it's potentially reprehensible for a BATTLER who "knows the truth."
Maybe so, but on the other hand how does BATTLER confess? It'd be different if it were just Battler, but BATTLER is a meta-being, so (depending on what you think the relationship between the Meta-World and Umineko-Prime is) he can manifest himself only through Touya's writing. No one would believe him if he just said it outright anyway, so maybe his only recourse is being subtle about it in the forgeries. Maybe the attention he draws to himself in EP5, for example, is actually him starting to take responsibility. Maybe he even wrote Forgery Number XXX.

Of course he may want Ange to view it differently.

Just an idea, of course.

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Although incidentally this makes the solution to ep4 very easy.
You mean the sin? Yeah, it really makes the answer quite... direct.
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:08   Link #26572
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
If you think about it, Battler never really chased the truth. He was always chasing for some phantom (i.e. the 19th person), since he adamantly refused to place any blame on his relatives. The only time he truly did it was during EP4 and that was solely to kill Beatrice.
Actually Battler was willing to acknowledge that one of his relatives or the servants could have been the culprits... but only as a last resort.
IMHO is pretty natural.
He loves them and believes them to be good people. It's natural he feels more prone to search for another explanation expecially because it hurts suspecting them.

Also the idea of a 19th person wouldn't have been stupid in real life.
There was in fact in Rokkenjima a secret house which could have been inhabitated by 1 or more people without the others knowing.
Hell, the Sumadera could have come in secret on Rokkenjima before the Ushiromiya siblings arrived, hide in Kuwadorian, reach the main house and start killing everyone, then leave the place leaving behind a time bomb.

The problem is that the games are supposed to be mystery and by mystery rules it wouldn't be fair to include a 19th person as player since said person wasn't introduced.
Battler however at first doesn't get he's playing a mystery game, he tries to approach the whole thing as a real massacre (in fact he suffers when his relatives die over and over) in fact he does many things that are sensate in real life but not in a mystery (thinking someone else did it, trying to leave the crime scenes untouched so the police can check them, search for secret passages and so on...)
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:15   Link #26573
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I theorize because I find it fun. If I figure something out, all the better.

And if you like the scientific method so much, you really shouldn't bother with this forum or even Umineko at all.
It was different when I used to think that the a method of validitation would be introduced in the end. Now I think theorizing is kinda pointless. I'm still hanging here because hopefully the solution of a few mysteries will be uncovered in the booklet that's going to be released soon.
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:22   Link #26574
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And if you like the scientific method so much, you really shouldn't bother with this forum or even Umineko at all.
Wow, that was kind of a dickish thing to say. What the hell is with you, recently? It's not Jan-Poo's fault that Ryukishi mislead everyone in the fandom , and there absolutely nothing wrong with being an Umineko fan who wants an answer for the questions that Ryukishi asked us to try and solve.

And really, you're bagging the scientific method? What are you, a witch?
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:27   Link #26575
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I, for one, didn't fully understand when did Battler change his attitude from "I'm going to save all of my family and leave this island with everyone alive!" to "Oh well whatever we're all already dead, better spend my time in preventing my little sister from discovering the truth and getting some rest in the Golden Land". Was it EP5, in the epiphany part? Because I can't think of any other plausible moment.
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:34   Link #26576
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Yeah, that seems to be the moment of his complete character shift, although his actions after that in ep5 don't entirely seem oriented that way.

By ep6, he's effectively a different character, at least so far as we understand him. He still seems to put up a pretense of acting like his old self until around ep7 when he's just plain out there.
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Old 2011-12-22, 15:51   Link #26577
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Wow, that was kind of a dickish thing to say. What the hell is with you, recently? It's not Jan-Poo's fault that Ryukishi mislead everyone in the fandom , and there absolutely nothing wrong with being an Umineko fan who wants an answer for the questions that Ryukishi asked us to try and solve.

And really, you're bagging the scientific method? What are you, a witch?
He's kinda right though when he says that you shouldn't bother with Umineko if you like the scientific method, if by "umineko" he means those parts that have no way to be validated or at least deduced with a pretty high certainty.

Though... I'm not sure if it's more denigrating towards that kind of reader or the author. One thing I can state for certain: if someone told me "this mystery novel raises a lot of questions and doesn't give any explanation", I wouldn't even start reading it. But it's a bit too late for me now, and then again it's not like umineko didn't explain anything.

There's a lot of theories I made in the past that were confirmed and many others that were proven wrong. I can be satisfied with that. I wished for more, but what can I say?
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Old 2011-12-22, 16:43   Link #26578
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I kinda think 'the one truth' wouldn't really satisfy other than that we would know it since
the stories we where told to solve was shown as mystery because that's how they where written in-canon, the real event is just that, an event,
it wouldn't be mystery, it would just be 'this is what happened' for the sake of knowing. Ryukishi could always make it mystery just for the sake of it though, I guess.
So yeah, I'm kinda sticking with my thoughts about the mysteries we where told to solve (Yasu and Tohya's mysteries) and the real event behind it being separate things.

Last edited by CrimsonMoonMist; 2011-12-22 at 17:39.
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Old 2011-12-22, 16:50   Link #26579
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I think in a way the problem is more that no one can reach a theory that everyone else can accept as the truth.

It seems like a lot of people at least has their version of the truth which might be open to new ideas or not. At one point I do think everyone should make pretty much their own understanding of Umineko and then move on when thinking about it isn't fun anymore.

There are definitively things that some people want and some others would hate so I still think the current unclear status is better for "the majority". What if the actual truth is "a witch did it but made it look like it could've been done by human means"? That's something most people wouldn't accept and would feel it betrayed the spirit of mystery/the serie/whatever, but I really don't see much of a possible answer that wouldn't cause such issues on the vast majority of fans.

Edit: Hideyoshi pretty much said my view of "the result" of considering Umineko a mystery.
Spoiler for Hideyoshi:


And that's nothing next to Kinzo incest, the implications of ShKanon, the sub with 10 tons of gold, the 900 tons bomb, or the simple idea of having one person planning to mass murder everyone else for a stupid reason like money or whatever else.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-22 at 17:03.
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Old 2011-12-22, 17:32   Link #26580
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Frankly, I am with Jan-Poo, here. I have thought about the mystery to the extent I possibly could. I could argue theories all day, but to no avail. We need an answer to substantiate our theories. As I said, unless the catbox is opened our theories are meaningless. They will not receive verification without the truth.
Anyway, I think the simple truth was already said, to some point. Yasu faked murders sedating people and that's when someone either freaked out and/or took advantage of the 'murders' and started actually murdering people. Most likely that is Kyrie, maybe Rudolph, too. Anyway, this is still just a theory. We have confirmation that murders were faked. Willingly, unwillingly? We can't know that for sure. Who knows what?
Anyway, I have my doubts to Battler being a possible culprit. The ending doesn't seem to fit it and I don't think Tohya would have hidden that. Tohya does not feel empathy for Battler in the slightest. That being said, it's still possible. I cannot prove one way or another, because we have no answer.
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