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Old 2009-10-25, 05:18   Link #2641
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
That's right, Genji could have lied about it being locked. But then what if Rosa decides to check to make sure it's locked and finds that it's unlocked? That seems too risky to me.
As I mentioned on the previous page, there is no risk if both Genji and Rosa are aware that the door isn't locked, and are merely pretending that it is. In the anime, Rosa is the one who opens the door, but the magic scene of her unlocking it can be generated by her and Genji's mutual lie.
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Old 2009-10-25, 05:21   Link #2642
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
I don't think it's strange way of acting at all. You'd need to have the letter held up against the wall to reseal it in such a situation. Asking the young child for the letter, or taking it from them, wouldn't be the most tactful thing to do, since the letter is a precious possession of theirs. The most polite way to get the letter resealed would be to ask the child to do you a favor and hold it up against the wall.

For instance, say someone has a daughter and she just wrote a letter to Santa. Isn't it easy to imagine a endearing scene where that someone leans over to put a stamp on the letter their precious daughter just wrote? It seems much more loving than asking coldly for them to hand over the letter so that it can be stamped.
Replacing a wax seal is a bit more complicated than stamping a letter.

However, I will admit at this point that if they did behave that way then it is possible to get around the red text. I don't think it's very likely though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
As I mentioned on the previous page, there is no risk if both Genji and Rosa are aware that the door isn't locked, and are merely pretending that it is. In the anime, Rosa is the one who opens the door, but the magic scene of her unlocking it can be generated by her and Genji's mutual lie.
Why would they let the cousins come running in if they are all working together?
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Old 2009-10-25, 05:42   Link #2643
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Did nobody think Maria herself just unlocked the door?
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Old 2009-10-25, 07:16   Link #2644
scwizard
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That's what I'm claiming in part.

Anyways, I've finished rereading the second episode, and I have a theory that I think takes care of everything. I'll certainly write it out in detail in the future, but the conclusion of it is:
Ushiromiya Rosa is the detective, Servant Genji and Servant Shannon are the culprits.
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Old 2009-10-25, 07:37   Link #2645
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Ushiromiya Rosa is the detective, Servant Genji and Servant Shannon are the culprits.
I agree with the latter part, but am just wut with the former. Care to explain this?
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Old 2009-10-25, 07:41   Link #2646
scwizard
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Rosa is the only one (besides Maria, and Maria being the detective would be lol) who didn't perceive golden butterflies before midnight.

Also it said in the end roll, that she denied witches.

Quote:
The witch did not beckon her, she who didn't recognize her existence and denied her, to the Golden Land.
Also Battler started seeing golden butterflies and such after he left the company of Rosa. The same applies to all of the other characters.
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Old 2009-10-25, 08:32   Link #2647
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これまでのあなたは探偵デシタ!
Until now the detective has been you!

This doesn't seem to leave a path open for speculating that Rosa was the detective in ep2. Also the only reason for this detective change is the fact that Beatrice isn't the Gamemaster anymore.

Beatrice opened the game to challenge Battler Ushiromiya

It would be pointless if Battler was not the detective.
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:48   Link #2648
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Ahh ok, that definitely rules that out.

I should have really read over the episode five red text before claiming that.
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:20   Link #2649
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Why would they let the cousins come running in if they are all working together?
Although Genji and Rosa created a mutual lie that the chapel was locked, the reason for the lie had nothing to do with the deaths inside the chapel. They were as surprised to find the mutilated corpses inside as everyone else.

For instance, under the "Halloween Party" theory, several people conspired to make the chapel seem locked to Maria in order to set up a surprise party for her. The murderer took advantage of the setup to commit the murders.

Under the "Murder Mystery Game" theory, a large number of people planned to act out a murder mystery game on the island (for Battler's benefit, because Kinzo's will said so, etc). The chapel was set up as the first murder scene, along with the magic circle, and the culprit killed everyone after the "victims" were in place as a means of camouflage.
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Old 2009-10-25, 14:12   Link #2650
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Or more simply: They're working together as culprits, and the murder scene is of no use to anyone if nobody else sees it. The cousins are needed to establish an alibi. Rosa scrupulously keeps close to Battler for most of the game, and leaving him alive may have been part of her strategy to confirm her alibi in the end.

While everyone seems to want to avoid blaming Rosa (and she, like Kanon, has something of a "red herring" vibe to her at times), there are a lot of suspicious questions about her behavior in ep2 that need to be addressed before we can rule her out. The biggest one being, why was everyone else at the chapel at midnight? Why wasn't she? Or if she was, why is she still alive the next morning when the others aren't? Was "Beatrice" ever at the chapel? Why? Where'd she go, if she was?

I suspect Rosa knows the answers to many of these questions even if she isn't the killer, so she's hiding something.
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Old 2009-10-25, 15:22   Link #2651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or more simply: They're working together as culprits, and the murder scene is of no use to anyone if nobody else sees it. The cousins are needed to establish an alibi. Rosa scrupulously keeps close to Battler for most of the game, and leaving him alive may have been part of her strategy to confirm her alibi in the end.

While everyone seems to want to avoid blaming Rosa (and she, like Kanon, has something of a "red herring" vibe to her at times), there are a lot of suspicious questions about her behavior in ep2 that need to be addressed before we can rule her out. The biggest one being, why was everyone else at the chapel at midnight? Why wasn't she? Or if she was, why is she still alive the next morning when the others aren't? Was "Beatrice" ever at the chapel? Why? Where'd she go, if she was?

I suspect Rosa knows the answers to many of these questions even if she isn't the killer, so she's hiding something.
Don't forget that she was shown in the chapel at the same time as the other cousins.
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Old 2009-10-25, 15:25   Link #2652
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Two assumptions that I've been seeing:
"when Maria's key was received" refers to noon on the 4th.
"the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day" refers to 6 AM on the 5th.

We have only Rosa's word that the envelope was sealed and the key inside at 6AM on Oct. 5.

Also, I have a big problem with any Rosa + accomplice hypothesis. From the red text, we know she kept the keys once she got them. If she did have an accomplice, why didn't she secretly hand over a key?
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Old 2009-10-25, 17:48   Link #2653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Two assumptions that I've been seeing:
"when Maria's key was received" refers to noon on the 4th.
"the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day" refers to 6 AM on the 5th.

We have only Rosa's word that the envelope was sealed and the key inside at 6AM on Oct. 5.

Also, I have a big problem with any Rosa + accomplice hypothesis. From the red text, we know she kept the keys once she got them. If she did have an accomplice, why didn't she secretly hand over a key?
If I'm recalling the wording of the red text correctly, it was something like

"Rosa controls all the Master Keys" which doesn't exclude her from giving it to an accomplice, because she is still 'in control' of it. If the accomplice decided to go against her while holding the key, that key would no longer be in her control.
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Old 2009-10-25, 18:09   Link #2654
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I suspect Rosa knows the answers to many of these questions even if she isn't the killer, so she's hiding something.
Rosa is definitely hiding something. I don't think that scene in the chapel was false, at max there are just a few things out of place, like the "real Beatrice" instead of suit Beatrice.
If that's the case and Rosa isn't the culprit, the big question would be: why Rosa never suspects that Beatrice? Since she was the only person present in that chapel beside her and the victims, that's the first person she should think about. However it seems she's pretty sure the culprits are the servants.
Also despite the fact that she acknowledged she was witch and that chapel scene, she always deny magic as a possibility to solve the closed room cases.

A possible solution would be that Rosa was made to believe in Beatrice and the resurrection ritual, and all what she said about the servants being culprits was all an act to drive them away and make them more likely targets for the witch.
That would be understandable considering she's a mother that wants to protect her child at all costs, and at the same time with a minor extent she's trying to protect the cousins. However this makes her only slightly more justifiable than an accomplice.
There is also the fact that she drove away even Battler in the end, but maybe that was because she thought he was Beatrice's accomplice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Two assumptions that I've been seeing:
"when Maria's key was received" refers to noon on the 4th.
"the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day" refers to 6 AM on the 5th.

We have only Rosa's word that the envelope was sealed and the key inside at 6AM on Oct. 5.

Also, I have a big problem with any Rosa + accomplice hypothesis. From the red text, we know she kept the keys once she got them. If she did have an accomplice, why didn't she secretly hand over a key?
As Sillyhat showed in his video, Beatrice refused to repeat when Beatrice gave the key to Maria, and omitted that part in her red text answer.
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Old 2009-10-26, 07:34   Link #2655
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I think some major premises needed to be set up before we can solve this game.

1.Which narration is reliable? Piece Battler's? Ange's in 1998? Only the red texts? (If only the red texts (and golden text of course, but I am saying these without reference to EP5) can be trusted, then really there is little information we have, it has not been even stated that people on the Rokkenjima were the people we believe they were)

2.Is there a man behind the man, a common conspirator(s) (As in Higurashi)? Or it can be true that something happen beyond the control of conspirator(s)?

Only then we can hope to solve this game completely.
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Old 2009-10-26, 07:47   Link #2656
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1.Which narration is reliable? Piece Battler's? Ange's in 1998? Only the red texts? (If only the red texts (and golden text of course, but I am saying these without reference to EP5) can be trusted, then really there is little information we have, it has not been even stated that people on the Rokkenjima were the people we believe they were)
Piece Battler outside of Episode 5 is definitely reliable, as is Ange's in 1998 and all viewpoints before October 4, 1986 and after October 5 as Beatrice can't go outside the gameboard. And what exactly do you mean by the last sentence? If you mean the fact that Beatrice could use the red to deceive, yes, but I don't think that Beatrice would pull that off - partly out of that would just be bad writing, and partly because I'm sure it's stated in red in 5 that Beatrice wants Battler to solve the riddle and playing word tricks like that would not help him solve it at all.
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Old 2009-10-26, 09:58   Link #2657
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After the premises have been set up, let me list out some of the major problems I find worthly to point out (EP specific, no reference to EP5 as I am an anti-fantasy fan from the beginning)

In EP1:

1.Were the six bodies found in the storage room true "bodies"? Gohda's and Krauss's maybe? But for the three face-crushed "bodies", some of them may not be bodies at all. This was consistent with the red text that "all the identities of dead bodies are guaranteed", because they were not bodies at all!! (Maybe they were statues, remember their bodies were so horrible that nobody wanted to look at them detailedly. Of course it means our doctor Nanjo was probably one of the culprits, but it was implied in EP4 anyway). Take notice that it has never been stated as in the first scene of EP2 that all six people were dead upon discovery.

2.In the boiler room's scene, it has been stated that there was a door leading to the inner garden that all doors were unlocked (Battler's chasing afterwards). Does it mean the puzzle in EP3 has been solved so easily when you recall this fact?

3.Even if Kanon had not died at all, who killed Natsuhi then? It had been stated that "all living people have alibi, and no unidenifiable bodies." and "Natsuhi was not killed by trap but a shot from another aimed gun (not her gun)". Was it one of the EP3 "who killed Nanjo" mystery that the killer killed Natsuhi but died before the statement was said.

4.All the remaining children seemed to have died in a horrible way. Was it what had also happened in the end of EP4? My suspicion is that someone had killed all other people and treated the bodies in such a gruesome way such that he or she would be assumed to be dead as well. The remains of Maria may be an intened overlook to make the police believe that none has survived. Remeber there was an alternative port on the island, stated in EP4...

EP2:

1.What was the meaning of showing the gold pieces in the chapel? Was it someone's intended proof that he or she had solved the epigraph and retrieved some pieces of gold? Then was the killing of six people because all other six declined to accept that? The six people seemed to have been doped, my first conjecture was that someone among the six had been pretending dead by putting some mark-up on the stomach. But it has also been stated that "the six were dead upon discovery", so why made such a terrific holloween party? My next conjecture was more troubling, someone has doped the six and cajoled Maria into "cutting open the six and feeding some candies into the stomach". If Maria had been the executor, then it would not contradict any of the red texts at all, while explaining the childish atmosphere as well...

2. The dead of Kanon and his latter re-appearance was one mystery. It would be explained readily by saying that all the servants are accomplices. I know it was unlikely, but something piqued me. The death of Jessica almost immediately followed the chapel discovery, and it was most likely that some servants had killed Jessica and Kanon given the time constraint. If Nanjo and Kumasawa had discovered the truth of Jessica and Kanon, then they may have been killed afterwards. Kanon was invoked to cover up the crime in this case.

3. What was the most puzzling was the stakes have been inserted on them. Unless someone among the three (in this case, it must be George who put the stakes, considering the wound of the other two) had the stakes with them, then someone outside must have put them into them. My theory is that George suspected Godha as involving in his parents' death. He used the mirror in Natsuhi's room as an excuse to go back to the chapel to check. They came to Natsuhi's room, confronted Gohda. Gohda brought out the stakes and killed Shannon in the struggle. George was able to stab one into Gohda's chest after he was stabbed into the stomach. George locked the door with Natsuhi's room key and then died.

EP3:

1.The chain-lockedd-room mystery had been solved if the boiler room has not been locked at all (see my comment on EP1). In this case, Kanon's room was the one last locked. Someone among the five (excluding Kinzo) may have killed some of the other fours and finally killed by the "real culprit".

2. It was interesting that only one type of magic circle had been used at all. Was it related to the early death of Maria? (Yes, I think that Maria is one of the accomplice in all Episode, despite her possible ignorance of what was actaully going on).

3. The password "07151129" implied that the one who drew the magic circle and killed George was also the one who sent the money to Nanjo and Kuwamasa's relatives. The reason of writing the code was unclear, a warning to someone who knew this number (possible Nanjo), a final word by someone (the real Beatrice). Consider the situation of the remaining people, and the latter death of Nanjo, someone must have pretended death at this point of time. I believe it was Kyrie (A main culprit, I think, as well as in EP4, as the Beatrice).

EP4

1. All the crimes could be explained by the collusion between Krauss, Kyrie, Gohda and Kumasawa. In fact, except Kanon has been killed as the ninth victims, all the other killing can be not in this order. If you notice, only Krauss and Kyrie had been talking on the phone with Battler and the other children. The scripts told by Gohda and Kumasawa were probably prepared by someone. These arranging were to make it look like Kinzo had been responsible for all the crimes, as Krauss might have hoped for, but probably he was betrayed by Kyrie in the end.

2. George should be killed by Jessica, or at least witnessed the death of George killed by Krauss. In fact, I suspect that after Jessica have known that his father, Krauss, were one of the murderers, she had lost her will of battle and was persuaded by Kyrie to say to Battler that all things were done by magic, due to her love for her family "Without love, one cannot see the truth", before she was killed by Kyrie.

3.The death of Kumawasa and Gohda was done by Krauss. The two might have been struck by guilt that they intended to hang themselves, but still could not decide to do so (their ropes were too long to hang themselves). During that time, Krauss came over and shot themselves in the forehead when they looked at the window. (Probably Krauss could tell them to come close to the window and shoot them if they were not hanging themselves)

4. Kyrie faked death on the phone and then pretended to be Beatrice. Then it was not hard to know why Kyrie has been so eager to tell Battler to believe in magic and witches, and also why the distance between Beatrice and Battler were so far. All was done in order to dispel any suspicion by Battler.

5. Without satisfying answer from Battler (I have no convincing theory of the sin of Battler), Kyrie killed herself afterwards. So who stuck the stakes into her forehead? The answer was Beatrice's apprentice, Maria. She probably also put all the stakes on other people's bodies. The reason why the stakes of Nanjo, Shannon were just casually put next to their bodies could now be seen, because Maria was UNABLE to stab the stakes into their bodies. I believe she probably poisoned herself while sleeping next to her mother, thinking that she was going to enter Golden place afterwards.

6.The death of Battler. What killed Battler? Maybe it was a powerful bomb set off by Kyrie? Or maybe Battler finally realized his sin and killed himself afterwards (Beatrice is the sin of Battler, not Battler per se)? Not seagulls, I guess??

7.What Ange discovered in captain's home was probably Sakutarou without his neckcloth. Probably Rosa had been making it throughout the journey and intended to finish it after the meeting as a surprise gift for Maria (See the picture of Sakutarou when Ange invaded Beatrice's Golden place). This was never known by Maria and the real Beatrice (Kyrie in my theory). I believed Beatrice had been aware of Rosa's mistreating of Maria and thought that the motherly love was never attainable in the real world. Beatrice convinced Maria that she could find happiness in the Golden place, though Beatrice knew that Maria could never see Sakutarou even in the Golden place, when both their mind excluded the possibility that Rosa would have remade Sakutarou. But Ange has seen it in 1998's world, realizing the love of Rosa, she successfully brought back Sakutarou without using Beatrice's magic, for it was the truth.

-------

A few questions have not been answered yet... What was the source of Kinzo's gold and fortune? (The episodes seemed to imply something linked with Korea War)

What sort of tools or weapons had been used to 1)blast off someone's head off, 2)reduce human's body into pieces, 3)stabbing the stakes into the foreheads? (As in the previous question, anything related to more advanced weapon acquired in War time period)

The human Beatrice who had killed herself in EP3? How was she related to the whole game? Any relation with the birth of Battler?

The bank password...was it a kind of wage to accomplices? Or a form of redemption for killing their relatives? (The latter intrepretation would affect my theory that Kyrie is the Beatrice, as Ange also received the letter. Of course Kyrie still could have give the money to Ange, considering that her parents would be dead after the event, and she needed immediate money)

The letters-in-the-bottle. I don't think they were execuation plans since no actual execuation plans could be in such details. To perfectly predict all the coming events, are you kidding? The letters are more like narration to me. But who had this leisure to write down the whole event and say "I don't know the truth" at the end? This mystery is similar to showing Rika being able to know all the tragedies beforehands. Maybe we need some supernatural explanations after all... they are the work by the witches to mock the remaining survivors, while the survivors could not understand why all the things have been written down in scripts?

Discussions are welcome. I know some of my theories are flawed, maybe you have a more convincing idea.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-27 at 07:58.
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Old 2009-10-26, 10:10   Link #2658
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
1.Were the six bodies found in the storage room true "bodies"? Gohda's and Krauss's maybe? But for the three face-crushed "bodies", some of them may not be bodies at all. This was consistent with the red text that "all the identities of dead bodies are guaranteed", because they were not bodies at all!! (Maybe they were statues, remember their bodies were so horrible that nobody wanted to look at them detailedly. Of course it means our doctor Nanjo was probably one of the culprits, but it was implied in EP4 anyway). Take notice that it has never been stated as in the first scene of EP2 that all six people were dead upon discovery.
There is also the sentence:

There are no body doubles

Doesn't that include fake bodies?
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Old 2009-10-26, 10:42   Link #2659
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is also the sentence:

There are no body doubles

Doesn't that include fake bodies?

The actual sentence is 身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない!

You quoted the latter part of the sentence, but its meaning depends on the first part, while the first part is talking about dead bodies with unclear identities (身元不明死体). 死体 means corpses, or dead bodies. Technically, something nonliving but made into bodylike corpses was not included in the red text.

Of course there is wordplay.
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Old 2009-10-26, 10:44   Link #2660
Kamar
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Isn't the point of the Gold text that there is no possible loopholes, misinterpretations, wordplay, etc. involved? Which would imply there IS in much of the Red.
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