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Old 2011-12-28, 10:52   Link #26641
jjblue1
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
In EP2, all actions piece- Battler takes can be considered his own actions as written and determined by Beatrice, Meta- Battler probably had nothing to do with it.
So Beatrice mind readed that Battler would have wanted people not to suspect Kanon and that he would have used that argument.
Or she tossed in a reasoning instead of waiting for Battler to make one.
It doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Same thing with EP5 and 6. In EP5, the story progressed as Lambda had written it and Bern used Erika's observations to gather clues. In EP6, it was the same way, Erika simply used her piece's actions to catch Battler in a logic error.
So you're saying it was Battler who had piece Erika kill his relatives and then conveniently forgot but Erika knew? This also doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Actually, yes, EP2 confirms what I said when Battler quits and believes in the witch. Basically, if Battler doesn't make a move or says that he'll stop playing, that's the equivalent of him saying that he'll stop thinking, which is an automatic loss. Furthermore, his overall goal is to prove Beatrice doesn't exist. By merely quitting, he's allowing Beatrice to do whatever she wants and prove her existence. That's why Beatrice has to do things to ignite his spirit, so that he won't quit.
But Battler doesn't leave the game or says he doesn't want to play anymore. He surrenders. It's quite different from what he does in Ep 3 when he just refuses to surrender but dumps Beato alone.

Episode 2:
Quote:
"I accept it!! I accept it, you exist you exist you definitely exist! So for heaven's sake, stop this already!! Stop it already! Stop it already!! Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!"
Episode 3:
Quote:
"I said be quiet!! Aaaah, shut up shut uuuuuuuuuup!! A witch? Magic?! Can't you just do what you want, I don't believe, I don't believe any of it, damn it damn it damn it damn it damn it!! Don't talk to me, don't show me anything, disappear, disappear, just disappear!! Don't get that annoying face near meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!"
"......E, even if you say that... If you don't finish your turn, then my turn won't come. I'm trying to say that I don't want you to bore me but..."
"Who cares, be quiet, shut uuup!! Who cares about your game, I won't go along with iiiiit!! If your turn won't come until mine is finished, then just wait for all eternity!! Aaaah, I don't know I don't know I don't get it!! I won't accept witches or magic, I won't accept something that screwed up!! Uuooooooooooohhh, I said don't talk to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!"
In fact in EP 2 the game went on and reached its end while in EP 3 Beato herself said she couldn't play if Battler didn't finish his turn and she has to wait for him to come back.



And anyway I'm not following you. So Beatrice doesn't want him to quit, which according to you would cause her to win, but wants to place him in a trap so she'll win anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Now, the Sun and Wind scheme was made- up before the game started. Beatrice knew that Battler would quit on her at some point during the game because he was annoyed at the brutal deaths of his family. So she requested the aid of her former mentor to act as Battler's helper, leaving a seed of good impressions for the witches. This seed will grow once Battler sees Beatrice's regret and acts of compassion and sacrifice, so then by the time the game was over, he would believe that witches were good and would naively sign a contract stating that he believes in them, thus forfeiting the game.
I know how the strategy worked. The point is EP 3 clearly says that first Virgilia became Battler's aide then she mentioned the wind and sun strategy to Beato while Battler wasn't around to hear it.
So maybe Virgilia's involvement had been planned from the beginning but Beato wasn't aware from the beginning of the sun/wind strategy.
And again: if you say she was winning by having him forfeit the game why to make him play so she could trick him and win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Again, Erika is using her piece's observation to do reasoning. Really, her goal should've been to figure out who the culprit is, however she changed that goal for a much more devious one. Knowing that Battler was knew to being Game Master, Bernkastel wanted to prove his incompetence and take control of the game. So she made a plot in which she would try to find holes in his story and catch him in a logic error. However, the story was well- written and she couldn't catch him. That is, until Erika had appealed to him and he wrote in the duct tape seals she requested, thus trapping his character.
The reason she trapped him wasn't just because of the duct tape ordinary seals but:
- because she used the duct tape to fix the chain also and then had set it shut, a thing that Battler didn't know
- because she killed Kirye, Eva, Maria, Natsuhi and Rosa, another thing Battler didn't know

Now, maybe Battler could have been a poor writer and forget about the chain... (Daniel Defoe forgot his main character was naked and had him put things in his pokets... -_-) but to forget he had Erika killing the characters who were supposed to resque him... well, this would make him a REALLY pitiful writer, not even worth of writing an elementary school composition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And contrary to what you believe, the GM can't just retract moves once they are said in done, especially considering that he/she was the one that wrote them in.
You just mentioned he retracted the move about the duck tape, though he had to inform Erika about it.
Also to fix the logic error Beato had to rewrite the scene with Kanon going to save Battler... which basically mean she changed the move Battler wanted to make. Plus, if the GM was in charge to merely tell the story he wouldn't be really making moves, just reading a story he wrote.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Pretty much, its the idea that Umineko is actually comparing the literary arts, specifically those of Detective Ficton, to games. Authors are called Game Masters and Readers are called Players, characters in the story are referred to as "pieces." Speculations had popped after EP5 and some had taken the form of the Author Theory which had strengthened after EP6.
Note that if I have Ellery Queen read one of his tales to me I can't tell him 'oh this character killed another' if that's not in the book he has written. The cool thing of being a author is you've supreme power over every action the characters in your story are making. A reader can't come and tell you that your characters are doing something without you being aware of this.

If me and Ellery Queen were in the Umineko world and I were to present such a theory he would destroy it with red.

If you want to use the author theory in relation to Umineko you must turn the story the GM is reading into an interactive one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
People had came to some of these conclusions through several observations:
#1) People have made attempts to try and give the characters set functions like the pieces in chess. However, the nature of the characters change with each game and, even moreso, develops. People have figured that this was odd if it was to be a game.
In chess you don't really have to make always the same moves. Although the pieces move according to some rules generally games differ one from another and a more experience player move the pieces in a more useful way than an unexperienced one.
In Umineko's case to create different games Beato moves the pieces differently but the pieces aren't really acting that drasticaly different from a game to another. They merely get more deept.
An exception are the Shannon/Kanon pieces as they are aware of the previous games... however Shannon/Kanon is one of the pieces that likely represent directly Beato on the gameboard so, like pieceBattler and pieceErika, they are aware of the meta going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
#2) At the beginning of every episode, except EP1 and EP2, Beatrice had to make preparations for the game. Some saw that this was odd because a game would be easy to set up since the pieces are usually set up in a certain way. People had began to conclude that the pieces are being changed around with each game. This observation was placed more in- depth in EP6 when Battler also had to make preparations.
You don't set the chess pieces on the gameboard? And if you're a really good player you'll also spend time planning a strategy. It's something pretty common in many sport games also. Beato is merely a good player who's studying a new strategy, not someone who start a game without thinking at what to do during it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
#3) Some had found it odd that Battler, who should have direct control of his piece, should be able to just move his piece around and make it so that his piece would be located to the next murder or, considering that he doesn't like to see his family die as well as not wanting to blame anyone, could've made it so that a murder couldn't have happened. Naturally, people have thought it was because of his own incompetence, though some had struck it especially odd when his piece never left the cousin's room in EP4 until the end of the game.
Battler doesn't know where the next murder will happen or who's the killer so how can he anticipate the murders? He also thinks he has to move his piece in a normal way meaning no magic powers like the detective authority and such, no disobeying the adults and no touching crime scene because 'the police will come'.

More than incompetent Battler is unaware of how the game work and he's learning it while playing.
He had no idea he could have claimed detective authority so he didn't.

A newby at chess although amazingly talented would never figure he can use castling unless someone explains it to him. In a fashion Beato plays dirty because she's an expert player who's forcing someone who never play to fight her and then she makes fun of him because he doesn't know the rules of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
#4) The court scene in EP5 had pretty much confirmed each of the games to be Mystery novels when it introduced Knox's Decalogue and had made comparisons to other mysteries in regards of whether Beatrice follows those rules or not. This confirmation was strengthened when Ikuko was introduced in EP6 stating that she had written some of the episodes.
However it is unlikely that episodes where as we saw them, with witches and all, otherwise people would have called Ikuko's tales as mere fantasies.
Also all the games have the same culprit, Yasu, and it's possible to guess she's the culprit. If this were to work for Ikuko's tales as well, Ange would have probably asked her why she suspected the maid since she believes Ikuko is close to the truth and someone should have solved her tales.

And again: how this interpretation of the author theory explain how Erika killed people without Battler being aware of it?
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Old 2011-12-28, 16:51   Link #26642
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Really?

In this case I'm talking about romantic love of Shannon/Beatrice for Battler, you know; not the "without love it cannot be seen" kind of love.
How does that prove anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
"Assumed" is the keyword here. Misleads through characters' mistaken assumptions are very common in RK07's style. Bern's speculation is not the absolute Word of God.
But its one of the most consistent things in series and there has been nothing to contradict it, so I'm taking it.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Bern doesn't understand Rule Z so naturally she sees it as an obstacle.
And so far she's been right about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Also, as I was trying to say earlier, just say the rule is "love is needed" and the logic contradiction that you are claiming is suddenly no longer valid.
Again, prove it.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In fact in EP 2 the game went on and reached its end while in EP 3 Beato herself said she couldn't play if Battler didn't finish his turn and she has to wait for him to come back.
And you really believe her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And anyway I'm not following you. So Beatrice doesn't want him to quit, which according to you would cause her to win, but wants to place him in a trap so she'll win anyway?
No, she was hoping that at some point Battler would realize what he was doing (or had done if post- facto) wrong. Again, she doesn't want him to lose, but she has to act as if she does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The reason she trapped him wasn't just because of the duct tape ordinary seals but:
- because she used the duct tape to fix the chain also and then had set it shut, a thing that Battler didn't know
- because she killed Kirye, Eva, Maria, Natsuhi and Rosa, another thing Battler didn't know

Now, maybe Battler could have been a poor writer and forget about the chain... (Daniel Defoe forgot his main character was naked and had him put things in his pokets... -_-) but to forget he had Erika killing the characters who were supposed to resque him... well, this would make him a REALLY pitiful writer, not even worth of writing an elementary school composition.
I assume you haven't heard of the Genius Battler Theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You just mentioned he retracted the move about the duck tape, though he had to inform Erika about it.
Also to fix the logic error Beato had to rewrite the scene with Kanon going to save Battler... which basically mean she changed the move Battler wanted to make. Plus, if the GM was in charge to merely tell the story he wouldn't be really making moves, just reading a story he wrote.
He didn't retract anything and Beatrice can't rewrite something when its already been said and done. What he did was write a scenario where Erika was able to find duct tape and Beatrice simply fixed the Logic Error by providing a way for Kanon to save Battler though it wasn't written in. The only thing needed to fix the Error was to have someone get Battler out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Note that if I have Ellery Queen read one of his tales to me I can't tell him 'oh this character killed another' if that's not in the book he has written. The cool thing of being a author is you've supreme power over every action the characters in your story are making. A reader can't come and tell you that your characters are doing something without you being aware of this.

If me and Ellery Queen were in the Umineko world and I were to present such a theory he would destroy it with red.

If you want to use the author theory in relation to Umineko you must turn the story the GM is reading into an interactive one.
That's the major difference between real- life stories and the games in Umineko. Unlike actual mysteries, the games are logical debates where one side presents their interpretation of the story and the other presents another, both trying to prove that their's is right. So in Umineko terms, if Mr. Queen were to go to your house and give you a story, he would have to say "This is a magical interpretation, try to defeat it with a human one." This is sort of a representation of how authors present an incomplete, post- facto telling of the story (in the Umineko this would be the Witch's "magical" version of the story) and we have to use the clues given to us to fill in the blanks (aka replace the "magical" story with a human one).

The Author Theory states that every episode, in its entirety, is a written story. However, some people have speculated that the Meta and Magic scenes don't exist in the actual text, so if you take out the Meta and Magic in each episode, you would have a mystery similar to the one in EP1. So the games are probably just written stories, and the GM and Player are just debating on what actually happened.

Naturally, one wouldn't argue with the author of the story, but that fact would've made Umineko an impossible game to play in the first place. However, it has been basically confirmed that the Witch side has simply added in its version of what happened, making it possibly for the Human side to make an counter- argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Battler doesn't know where the next murder will happen or who's the killer so how can he anticipate the murders? He also thinks he has to move his piece in a normal way meaning no magic powers like the detective authority and such, no disobeying the adults and no touching crime scene because 'the police will come'.

More than incompetent Battler is unaware of how the game work and he's learning it while playing.
He had no idea he could have claimed detective authority so he didn't.

A newby at chess although amazingly talented would never figure he can use castling unless someone explains it to him. In a fashion Beato plays dirty because she's an expert player who's forcing someone who never play to fight her and then she makes fun of him because he doesn't know the rules of the game.
He had a good idea of how things worked to begin with. In EP2, he claimed Devil's Proof against Beatrice, so obviously he knew this was a battle of logic. In fact, the game didn't turn into a mystery until EP5. It was pretty much Anti- Magic vs Magic, so all he had to do was just make up a theory to counter the witches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
However it is unlikely that episodes where as we saw them, with witches and all, otherwise people would have called Ikuko's tales as mere fantasies.
Also all the games have the same culprit, Yasu, and it's possible to guess she's the culprit. If this were to work for Ikuko's tales as well, Ange would have probably asked her why she suspected the maid since she believes Ikuko is close to the truth and someone should have solved her tales.

And again: how this interpretation of the author theory explain how Erika killed people without Battler being aware of it?
1) People believe that Yasu isn't the culprit, and there are some, like me, who don't believe she even existed on the island.

2) A mystery can have witches and stuff as long as the answer to it follows the basic rules.

3) Battler probably planned everything so that he can revive Beatrice, so he intentionally forgot about the murders and placed himself in a logic error knowing that the chick- Beatrice he created would find someway to get him out of it and, in turn, evolve into the original Beatrice. This what we call the Genius Battler theory.
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Old 2011-12-28, 18:27   Link #26643
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And you really believe her?
As she didn't continue playing I'll say there's no proof to doubt her. Even in Ep 5, to play Bern and Labda had to replace Beato and Battler. If the player was unnecessary Lambda could have played alone.
At least for the mere fun value a player is necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
No, she was hoping that at some point Battler would realize what he was doing (or had done if post- facto) wrong. Again, she doesn't want him to lose, but she has to act as if she does.
Too bad that her sun and wind theory was working so well that, hadn't Ange gotten in between, Battler would have lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I assume you haven't heard of the Genius Battler Theory.
You assume wrong.
However what you're saying is 'Battler wrote that Erika murdered people, Erika heard it and used it to trap Battler in a logic error when he faked forgetting he wrote she murdered people... and Battler continued to pretend he had no idea Erika murdered people in front of everyone'.
That's not genius Battler this is unbelievable Battler.
Even if he could have forgot or fake to forget such an important detail once Erika pointed it out he shouldn't have acted all surprised and 'how could you' while Erika was all 'yes, I killed them and you didn't know', he should have said 'damn, I forgot I had her kill them' and she should have said 'you're an idiot to forget such thing or hope I'll forget as well'.

Also Erika was allowed to seal rooms. She did it retroactively and Battler didn't know what she sealed. This becomes absurd if he was in charge of moving pieceErika. PieceErika couldn't seal anything without him knowing and playerErika wouldn't have needed to report it to him, he would have been the one who would have told her you sealed this, this and this.

Quote:
"It's about those retroactive seals. ......Actually, I had already sealed one place. I apologize for taking so long to report this to you."
"......You already sealed something? In other words, you've already used up all three rooms' worth?"
"Yes. I promised that I'd report on it right away, but I completely forgot until just now. You have my sincere apologies."
"You don't look like someone who's sincerely apologizing... ...Well, that's fine. I'm the one who gave you that privilege. ......So? Where did you seal?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
He didn't retract anything and Beatrice can't rewrite something when its already been said and done. What he did was write a scenario where Erika was able to find duct tape and Beatrice simply fixed the Logic Error by providing a way for Kanon to save Battler though it wasn't written in. The only thing needed to fix the Error was to have someone get Battler out.
Originally in the whole mansion there wasn't suck tape Erika could use.

Quote:
"What do you mean by a 'truth'...?"
".....................For example, ......there are Lady Erika's duct tape SEALS."
"Ah, ......those."
"Lady Bernkastel has already acknowledged that those seals are equivalent in value to the red TRUTH. Therefore, I am permitted to draw the red key only for truths pertaining to those SEALS."
"Those caused me a lot of trouble last time, so I had all the sticky duct tape removed from the game board this time around."
"......A splendid MOVE."
He agreed to rewrite a part of the game so she could have some ducktape.

Quote:
"......UNDERSTOOD. Three rooms' worth of duct tape seals, ACCEPTED. ......Regarding this matter...should we consider them as being accepted retroactively, back when Lady Erika received the non-sticky duct tape from <Mrs> Kumasawa?"
Erika had borrowed duct tape from Kumasawa to make seals with.
However, Battler had made it so that those were not sticky...
If he made it so that there never was any problem with the stickiness of that duct tape, the transition could be made smoothly.
"Sure, that's fine. ......I'll rewrite the tale. ......The duct tape that Erika received from Kumasawa-san late at night on the first day was sticky, but there was only enough left to use on three rooms. ......I'll apply that from here on out."
"UNDERSTOOD. ......Lady Erika will also retroactively adjust her movements, starting before the discovery of the first twilight, and taking into account that the application of this privilege is now POSSIBLE. ......As soon as these changes affect the progression of the game, they will be reported to the Game MASTER."
"......Letting you do it retroactively, even though you know which rooms the crime will occur in... ...That gives you a pretty big advantage. You won't have to waste tape on other rooms."
... and let her use it retroactively.

There's also this scene in which it's said that Battler can rewrite something retroactively.

Quote:
"This still isn't quite a logic error. And though we sealed the room retroactively, we are at fault for the lateness in reporting it. So, I have no problem with letting Battler-san retroactively rewrite the plot concerning this letter."
"......Retroactively rewrite the plot...?"
As for Beato Battler ended up trapped in the logic error because he wrote that Kirye (and later the others) tried to save him. Beato had to revise what Battler 'wrote'.

Quote:
"Beatrice has sent me her revisions to the tale inside a sealed envelope. As a result of my inspection, I find its contents to be effective. I proclaim that the logic error has been avoided!! 'The chain lock is still set! And without any contradictions with any red truth made up to this point!'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
That's the major difference between real- life stories and the games in Umineko. Unlike actual mysteries, the games are logical debates where one side presents their interpretation of the story and the other presents another, both trying to prove that their's is right. So in Umineko terms, if Mr. Queen were to go to your house and give you a story, he would have to say "This is a magical interpretation, try to defeat it with a human one."
To create a magical interpretation he must make a story in which the murder can be made by using human tricks. Ergo he knows also the 'human culprit' solution.

So if I go and say 'character X did it' and it wasn't character X, all he has to do is to give me a red truth that says chara X didn't do it as Eva Beatrice did in Ep 3 when she said the culprits for Nanjo's murder weren't Battler, Jessica or Eva.
Otherwise Battler could have accused one of the 3 and it would have been a perfect human solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Naturally, one wouldn't argue with the author of the story, but that fact would've made Umineko an impossible game to play in the first place. However, it has been basically confirmed that the Witch side has simply added in its version of what happened, making it possibly for the Human side to make an counter- argument.
Yes, but the witch side can discharge the counter argument if that's not the truth.
Eva did so in Ep 3 and Battler destroyed Erika's truth in Ep 5 when he used red to state the corpses weren't moved.
Erika built a human culprit theory that wasn't the truth behind the magic scenes. Lambda let it be because it amused her as Beato, in Ep 4, didn't bother destroying some blue truth Battler tossed in (Lambda and Bern at the end of the episode will tell he was wrong).
And in Ep 5 we've Erika who's shocked because apparently she didn't hear the corpses weren't moved when Lambda read the story.
Erika with her amazing memory, fine hearing and so on didn't hear it while Battler did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
He had a good idea of how things worked to begin with. In EP2, he claimed Devil's Proof against Beatrice, so obviously he knew this was a battle of logic. In fact, the game didn't turn into a mystery until EP5. It was pretty much Anti- Magic vs Magic, so all he had to do was just make up a theory to counter the witches.
He first used Devil's proof in Ep 1 against Kyrie and they weren't making a battle of logic they were merely trying to use logic to figure out something.

Quote:
"If Beatrice was really her name, this person would definitely be the most honored of guests. The most honored of confidants, trusted by Grandfather. ...There's no way that Grandfather wouldn't give that kind of person a warm reception. She would surely have been ushered into the mansion. However, we haven't seen anyone."
"Wait a second, isn't this line of reasoning a little too hasty? Yes, no one spotted them, but that doesn't mean that you can deny the possibility that a 19th person exists, right? Maybe, for some reason, they landed on the island stealthily and have been hiding ever since. ......It's what they call the Devil's Proof. It's easy to prove that something exists. If this Beatrice appears in front of us all and says hi, then everything is resolved. However, it's impossible to prove that there is no 19th person."
It's pretty obvious he had to use logic to figure out things.
Even if you're a beginner at chess you can figure out you've to move the pieces to do something.
Note that although Devil's proof is presented as a weapon actually it's the wrong one to use in a mystery.
The decalogue destroys the Devil's proofs.
In short if using the Devil's proof is the equivalent of figuring he has to move the pieces in chess, he's moving the pieces in the wrong way, allowing Beato to eat them and letting the king in full sight.
I wouldn't really call this having a good idea of how things worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
1) People believe that Yasu isn't the culprit, and there are some, like me, who don't believe she even existed on the island.
When you say 'people' you give the impression you're talking about 'everyone'.
I'm aware there are many that think Yasu isn't the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime and that there are few who thinks Yasu isn't the culprit in the games either.

This doesn't prove Yasu isn't the culprit in the games as Ryukishi clearly hinted (though I side with the ones who think Yasu isn't the culprit on Rokkenjima Prime).
And anyway, unless you're going to say there are different culprits for each games or each game has Eva as a culprit (though Eva didn't kill Nanjo in Ep 3 so we would have an extra culprit for Nanjo's murder), this would have still caused Ange to ask 'why do you think person X was the culprit?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
2) A mystery can have witches and stuff as long as the answer to it follows the basic rules.
It would lose in realism though if it had REAL WITCHES and this would make Hachijo's tales less believable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
3) Battler probably planned everything so that he can revive Beatrice, so he intentionally forgot about the murders and placed himself in a logic error knowing that the chick- Beatrice he created would find someway to get him out of it and, in turn, evolve into the original Beatrice. This what we call the Genius Battler theory.
And everyone believed he forgot about the murders and didn't remember them not even when Erika reminded him about them and accused Erika of being insane because no one would write such a mystery like this... when actually he was the one who wrote that Erika murdered them.

Quote:
"......Are you insane? ......What kind of...mystery would...ever allow something like that......?"
"I can't believe I'm hearing this from a witch on the fantasy side. Oh, and don't worry. I didn't kill you. ......I didn't have time to sever the head of the last one found, so I just sealed your whole room with the duct tape you gave me."
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Old 2011-12-28, 19:32   Link #26644
PsychoShion
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Age: 39
Please elaborate on the Battler culprit theory.




I mean i think by him not returning to Ange and choosing the witch over her in the end that could be looked upon as being the culprit in ange'seyes.




BUt him being the culprit in the murders can someone explain any of this theroy are u saying the whole beatrice thing he made up and his meta -beatice talks are his decsions when making the murders??
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Old 2011-12-28, 20:45   Link #26645
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As she didn't continue playing I'll say there's no proof to doubt her. Even in Ep 5, to play Bern and Labda had to replace Beato and Battler. If the player was unnecessary Lambda could have played alone.
At least for the mere fun value a player is necessary.
Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth, so she acted like a cruel- @$$ b*tch until the end of EP4. So in EP3's case, she could have won the game when he decided not to play but she had to stop because she was afraid he was going to give up altogether and not come back.

In any case, the player is obviously necessary, no one's refuting that, but in a game where you have to see things through, you can't stop half- way. Lucky for Battler, Beatrice had plans for him.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Too bad that her sun and wind theory was working so well that, hadn't Ange gotten in between, Battler would have lost.
Meh, he probably would've realized how bad of a move he made and tear up the paper or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You assume wrong.
However what you're saying is 'Battler wrote that Erika murdered people, Erika heard it and used it to trap Battler in a logic error when he faked forgetting he wrote she murdered people... and Battler continued to pretend he had no idea Erika murdered people in front of everyone'.
That's not genius Battler this is unbelievable Battler.
Even if he could have forgot or fake to forget such an important detail once Erika pointed it out he shouldn't have acted all surprised and 'how could you' while Erika was all 'yes, I killed them and you didn't know', he should have said 'damn, I forgot I had her kill them' and she should have said 'you're an idiot to forget such thing or hope I'll forget as well'.

Also Erika was allowed to seal rooms. She did it retroactively and Battler didn't know what she sealed. This becomes absurd if he was in charge of moving pieceErika. PieceErika couldn't seal anything without him knowing and playerErika wouldn't have needed to report it to him, he would have been the one who would have told her you sealed this, this and this.





Originally in the whole mansion there wasn't suck tape Erika could use.



He agreed to rewrite a part of the game so she could have some ducktape.



... and let her use it retroactively.

There's also this scene in which it's said that Battler can rewrite something retroactively.



As for Beato Battler ended up trapped in the logic error because he wrote that Kirye (and later the others) tried to save him. Beato had to revise what Battler 'wrote'.
If Battler were to have simply forgotten, then he would have just simply re- wrote the scene, but that wasn't the case. He was told that he should have, but he kept the scene up "out of pride," so obviously he didn't forget and he wanted the scene to stay.

By the way, it was never mentioned whether piece- Battler was saved by someone or not, Battler just started listing names in hopes somebody would take his piece's place in the room.

And again, Beatrice can't revise something that's already been done, the game officially ended with the Logic Error so there's no going back and making revisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
To create a magical interpretation he must make a story in which the murder can be made by using human tricks. Ergo he knows also the 'human culprit' solution.

So if I go and say 'character X did it' and it wasn't character X, all he has to do is to give me a red truth that says chara X didn't do it as Eva Beatrice did in Ep 3 when she said the culprits for Nanjo's murder weren't Battler, Jessica or Eva.
Otherwise Battler could have accused one of the 3 and it would have been a perfect human solution.
Actually, no, magical scenes could have nothing to do with what actually happened. Its true that all mysteries need a human culprit, but that doesn't mean that the Witch side forms their interpretations based off of it. Otherwise, it would be easier to figure out who the real culprit is since all we have to do is look at the magic scenes and decipher them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, but the witch side can discharge the counter argument if that's not the truth.
Eva did so in Ep 3 and Battler destroyed Erika's truth in Ep 5 when he used red to state the corpses weren't moved.
Erika built a human culprit theory that wasn't the truth behind the magic scenes. Lambda let it be because it amused her as Beato, in Ep 4, didn't bother destroying some blue truth Battler tossed in (Lambda and Bern at the end of the episode will tell he was wrong).
And in Ep 5 we've Erika who's shocked because apparently she didn't hear the corpses weren't moved when Lambda read the story.
Erika with her amazing memory, fine hearing and so on didn't hear it while Battler did?
It doesn't matter whether they know the truth or not, the Witches have to give their own view of the story otherwise the player would be given normal mysteries and the GM would just be watching him/her think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
He first used Devil's proof in Ep 1 against Kyrie and they weren't making a battle of logic they were merely trying to use logic to figure out something.
Thanks for the info, but his chat with Kyrie and him battling Beatrice are two different scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's pretty obvious he had to use logic to figure out things.
Even if you're a beginner at chess you can figure out you've to move the pieces to do something.
Note that although Devil's proof is presented as a weapon actually it's the wrong one to use in a mystery.
The decalogue destroys the Devil's proofs.
In short if using the Devil's proof is the equivalent of figuring he has to move the pieces in chess, he's moving the pieces in the wrong way, allowing Beato to eat them and letting the king in full sight.
I wouldn't really call this having a good idea of how things worked.
Again, Umineko didn't turn into a mystery until EP5. Before then, all he had to do was just disprove that a witch doesn't exist on the island. There were no Knox's Decalogue, no Van Dine's 20 rules, no rules of mystery that applied at the time, so he had a pretty good idea of what he had to do. It was an Anti- Magic vs Magic debate, Beatrice says that she's a witch on the island and proves it with magic, Battler just has to say no and provided a human explanation for what she has done. All Battler had to do was counter her with logic, he knew that from the get- go, there were no special rules or anything that he needed until EP2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
When you say 'people' you give the impression you're talking about 'everyone'.
I'm aware there are many that think Yasu isn't the culprit in Rokkenjima Prime and that there are few who thinks Yasu isn't the culprit in the games either.

This doesn't prove Yasu isn't the culprit in the games as Ryukishi clearly hinted (though I side with the ones who think Yasu isn't the culprit on Rokkenjima Prime).
And anyway, unless you're going to say there are different culprits for each games or each game has Eva as a culprit (though Eva didn't kill Nanjo in Ep 3 so we would have an extra culprit for Nanjo's murder), this would have still caused Ange to ask 'why do you think person X was the culprit?'
That's if Ange had the impression that Hachijou knew, which she only had the feeling that she did but wasn't sure since she wrote the story in a way that you couldn't tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It would lose in realism though if it had REAL WITCHES and this would make Hachijo's tales less believable.
Obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And everyone believed he forgot about the murders and didn't remember them not even when Erika reminded him about them and accused Erika of being insane because no one would write such a mystery like this... when actually he was the one who wrote that Erika murdered them.
Spoiler for Genius Battler Theory...:
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Old 2011-12-28, 21:52   Link #26646
Kealym
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Jumping in.

I'm fairly certain the R-Prime readership are at least getting the magical narrative. Not the Meta, but definitely the fantasy. This has been a theory since forever, and EP8 confirms it pretty solidly.

I'm also fairly certain that Genius Battler theory explains the idiosyncrasies of Battler's retcon stunts and logic error in EP6.

Also agree with Drifloon that we are probably putting far more thought into the Meta Games' level of interactivity than Ryukishi ever did - as stated, it's had a really inconsistent portrayal, and EP6 in particular had a pretty cluster-fudged mess of Meta levels twisting into one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
Please elaborate on the Battler culprit theory.
It's a theory wherein "Battler knew the answer to the logic error all along. He manipulated Erika into creating the Error, and went through the motions of actually being trapped, all for the sake of forcing Beato to solve the Error herself and rescue him. In this way, his game proves his full understanding of Beato's heart, and effectively "revived" Beatrice, who had died in the last game."

The theory solves the problem of "Why can Piece-Erika take actions that BATTLER isn't aware of, if he wrote the entire damn story?"

There's probably more to be said, but that's my understanding of it in a nutshell.
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Old 2011-12-28, 22:32   Link #26647
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also agree with Drifloon that we are probably putting far more thought into the Meta Games' level of interactivity than Ryukishi ever did - as stated, it's had a really inconsistent portrayal, and EP6 in particular had a pretty cluster-fudged mess of Meta levels twisting into one another.
He's been pretty consistent as long as you believe that Erika is just special. Assuming that the pieces act according to the way they are written, everything makes sense until Erika pops up, but Erika's very existence is a f*cked up situation as a whole so its kind of hard to determine anything if you add her as a factor.
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Old 2011-12-28, 23:15   Link #26648
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Quote:
It's a theory wherein "Battler knew the answer to the logic error all along. He manipulated Erika into creating the Error, and went through the motions of actually being trapped, all for the sake of forcing Beato to solve the Error herself and rescue him. In this way, his game proves his full understanding of Beato's heart, and effectively "revived" Beatrice, who had died in the last game."
You goofed; you're talking about Genius Battler Theory, not Battler Culprit Theory.
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Old 2011-12-29, 00:01   Link #26649
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Also we don't know that Erika ever saw the story Battler prepared, so if it made any allowances for her stunts, she wouldn't be able to tell.

But that isn't even necessary. All Battler needed to do was structure his tale to allow for a Logic Error and permit Erika exactly what she would need to do it AT SOME POINT. And he quite literally gave her EXACTLY what she needed; not less, not more. Non-genius Battler requires us to believe this was basically a coincidence that he was guilt tripped into giving her a perfectly efficient number of seals.

And it's duct tape, by the way, for taping metal ducts, hence its adhesive strength. No one, even Erika, is so sadistic as to tape waterfowl.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-12-29, 00:32   Link #26650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
Please elaborate on the Battler culprit theory.

I mean i think by him not returning to Ange and choosing the witch over her in the end that could be looked upon as being the culprit in ange'seyes.

BUt him being the culprit in the murders can someone explain any of this theroy are u saying the whole beatrice thing he made up and his meta -beatice talks are his decsions when making the murders??
The idea is that Battler was the culprit (or a culprit) on R-Prime. I don't think there's a specific consensus on how or why Battler was the culprit, so "Battler Culprit Theory" is lacking in details.

It's primary virtue as an answer is that it makes Touya's identity disassociation from Battler more believable. Also, it's cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It's a theory wherein "Battler knew the answer to the logic error all along. He manipulated Erika into creating the Error, and went through the motions of actually being trapped, all for the sake of forcing Beato to solve the Error herself and rescue him. In this way, his game proves his full understanding of Beato's heart, and effectively "revived" Beatrice, who had died in the last game."
That's Genius Battler, not Battler Culprit.
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Old 2011-12-29, 01:57   Link #26651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You goofed; you're talking about Genius Battler Theory, not Battler Culprit Theory.
...whoops. It seems I ... somehow managed to misread that entire post. That I quoted.
/facepalm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And it's duct tape, by the way, for taping metal ducts, hence its adhesive strength. No one, even Erika, is so sadistic as to tape waterfowl.
DON'T UNDERESTIMATE HER, MAN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
He's been pretty consistent as long as you believe that Erika is just special. Assuming that the pieces act according to the way they are written, everything makes sense until Erika pops up, but Erika's very existence is a f*cked up situation as a whole so its kind of hard to determine anything if you add her as a factor.
I mostly agree - it wasn't until Chiru that the narrative really, really started regarding the humans as "mere pieces to be moved". I still think Ryukishi just kind of does whatever he thinks the plot calls for, instead of following some hard rule about it, though.
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Old 2011-12-29, 03:07   Link #26652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And it's duct tape, by the way, for taping metal ducts, hence its adhesive strength. No one, even Erika, is so sadistic as to tape waterfowl.
Duck tape, according to Witch Hunt. Quack.
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Old 2011-12-29, 03:20   Link #26653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
He's been pretty consistent as long as you believe that Erika is just special. Assuming that the pieces act according to the way they are written, everything makes sense until Erika pops up, but Erika's very existence is a f*cked up situation as a whole so its kind of hard to determine anything if you add her as a factor.
No, he really hasn't. Absolutely everything in Episode 2 suggests that Battler and Meta-Battler are practically the same entity. Seriously, either they're the same person or Meta-Battler is getting REALLY involved in the story because he seems to be feeling the exact same emotions that Battler is and reacting to everything the exact same way.

And again, there's this. It's very hard to get the impression that the person arguing with Rosa on the game board and the person arguing with Beatrice in the meta-world are not one and the same here:

Spoiler for Ep 2 dialogue:


Battler's last line there was definitely heard by Rosa, and it was definitely spoken to Beatrice.
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Old 2011-12-29, 04:26   Link #26654
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
How does that prove anything?
Let me get this strait. You think that Beatrice's/Shannon's love for Battler is not the main cause of the Gameboard's existence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And so far she's been right about it.
How do you know? None of the Rules X, Y, and Z have been verified, so the only way you can claim this is by assuming your own argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Again, prove it.
Prove what? That "Rule Z = Without love it cannot be seen" fits with "Rule Z masks Rules X and Y"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Again, Umineko didn't turn into a mystery until EP5. Before then, all he had to do was just disprove that a witch doesn't exist on the island. There were no Knox's Decalogue, no Van Dine's 20 rules, no rules of mystery that applied at the time, so he had a pretty good idea of what he had to do. It was an Anti- Magic vs Magic debate, Beatrice says that she's a witch on the island and proves it with magic, Battler just has to say no and provided a human explanation for what she has done. All Battler had to do was counter her with logic, he knew that from the get- go, there were no special rules or anything that he needed until EP2.
Beatrice said she followed Knox's rules in EP2, at least regarding secret doors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
If Battler were to have simply forgotten, then he would have just simply re- wrote the scene, but that wasn't the case. He was told that he should have, but he kept the scene up "out of pride," so obviously he didn't forget and he wanted the scene to stay.

By the way, it was never mentioned whether piece- Battler was saved by someone or not, Battler just started listing names in hopes somebody would take his piece's place in the room.
Not only does it not make any sense for Battler to "forget" things he wrote himself, but it doesn't make any sense as to how Erika would be fooled. She would have to be brain-dead to actually believe that Battler was caught off guard by any of her piece's actions.
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Old 2011-12-29, 10:10   Link #26655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Beatrice wanted Battler to find the truth, so she acted like a cruel- @$$ b*tch until the end of EP4. So in EP3's case, she could have won the game when he decided not to play but she had to stop because she was afraid he was going to give up altogether and not come back.

In any case, the player is obviously necessary, no one's refuting that, but in a game where you have to see things through, you can't stop half- way. Lucky for Battler, Beatrice had plans for him.
Let's summarize everything that was said okay?
So you said that Beatrice, in a game she created and basically wanted to lose, added the rule that if Battler were to stop playing (not to surrender just to stop playing), she would win (a thing she didn't want), without anything in canon to support this theory but actually going against this (since she claimed she couldn't play without him and stopped playing in Ep 3, she couldn't declare her victory in Ep 4 when Battler was brain dead (nor Battler could declare his victory since she wanted to abandon the game), just to make Bern and Lambda accept the game suspension... sort of... if he couldn't continue and in Ep 5 Bern needed to replace Battler as player)?

Sorry, I can't believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
If Battler were to have simply forgotten, then he would have just simply re- wrote the scene, but that wasn't the case. He was told that he should have, but he kept the scene up "out of pride," so obviously he didn't forget and he wanted the scene to stay.
The scene he kept out of pride was the one of the letter, not the one of people having been murdered by Erika.
And if he were to rewrite the scene of the letter he would have admitted what Erika did stopped his trick from being effective, giving Erika a clear hint on which was his trick.
Note he was allowed to rewrite the letter scene but not the one of the duct tape sealing the rooms and that Erika apologized to him because she was the one who had forgot to inform him about her sealing those rooms.
If this isn't a clear hint Erika was free to have her piece seal the rooms without Battler knowing I don't know what is.

In the scene is clearly said that Battler needed to be informed about where piece Erika placed the seals, which would be absurd if he was writing piece Erika's actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
By the way, it was never mentioned whether piece- Battler was saved by someone or not, Battler just started listing names in hopes somebody would take his piece's place in the room.
Quote:
Kyrie......saved Battler.........

USHIROMIYA KYRIE CANNOT SAVE BATTLER.
and

Quote:
"We'll tell you its basis soon. ......But more importantly, Lambda......? ......The logic with Kyrie has ceased to function. ......You should probably find another piece to switch places with Battler, don't you think...?"
and later

Quote:
"Then let's switch it to Natsuhi. ......Ushiromiya Natsuhi switched places with Battler...!"
Just at the end Battler began to toss names, though the implication was those names would replace Kirye and Natsuhi's name in the overmentioned sentences.

The sentence was said, Erika heard it and declared it illogic destroying it with the red truth, Battler was allowed to correct it more than once but couldn't fix it until Beato fixed it using Kanon's name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And again, Beatrice can't revise something that's already been done, the game officially ended with the Logic Error so there's no going back and making revisions.
The logic error left Battler was trapped in the room when Erika went in.
Beato corrected it by having Kanon replace Battler.

Quote:
"Beatrice has sent me her revisions to the tale inside a sealed envelope. As a result of my inspection, I find its contents to be effective. I proclaim that the logic error has been avoided!! 'The chain lock is still set! And without any contradictions with any red truth made up to this point!'"
Note that Lambda herself said Beato sent her a revision of the tale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Actually, no, magical scenes could have nothing to do with what actually happened. Its true that all mysteries need a human culprit, but that doesn't mean that the Witch side forms their interpretations based off of it. Otherwise, it would be easier to figure out who the real culprit is since all we have to do is look at the magic scenes and decipher them.
You misunderstood me.
What I'm saying is that the witch side can explain something with magic but, behind that magic scene there must be a human trick. It doesn't matter if the magic scene is as far as possible from the human trick, the human trick must still be possible.

And in Ep 6 we see that although Battler provided magic scenes completely unrelated to the human tricks he used (Eva wasn't killed by George she just faked her death) the human trick must be possible and the witch side MUST have thought which one is it they actually used.
It's one of the rules of the game that you can use magic only to make what can be accomplished with human tricks and until Battler/Beato can't think of a human trick to get Battler out of the room he remains trapped in a logic error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
It doesn't matter whether they know the truth or not, the Witches have to give their own view of the story otherwise the player would be given normal mysteries and the GM would just be watching him/her think.
Hum... you realize your answer is unrelated to my reply?

First, the witch side, who's also represented by the GM KNOWS the truth.
We went through it before so I'm not going to repeat it.
Second the point wasn't if they lie about the truth and give us a magic interpretation or not.
What we were talking about is 'if the human side gives a counter argument that's not the truth the witch/GM side can crush it with red truth in order to win'.

In Ep 3 Battler tries the theory 'Jessica killed Nanjo'.
EvaBeatrice in order not to let him win crushed him with the red truth 'Jessica didn't kill Nanjo'. Then she gave a magic explanation for it which was, of course, a lie.
The point was EvaBeatrice knew the trick used to kill Nanjo and knew Battler hadn't guessed it so she could deny his argument with red.
If Battler had guessed the true trick she wouldn't have been able to do so... unless she were capable to switch to another trick (it's clearly said in Ep 6).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Thanks for the info, but his chat with Kyrie and him battling Beatrice are two different scenarios.
Yes, but it proves that Battler is aware of an extremely famous method to prove you can't deny certain possibilities.
People use devil's proof to say you can't deny the existence of aliens, of God, of everything.
In addition in Ep 2 the devil's proof is used by Rudolf in front of Battler and the cousins began using it when they talk about the possibility of Beatrice and Kinzo having a kid with Beatrice being true or false.
In that same episode Maria also will use Devil's proof to say Battler can't say witches doesn't exist.
All this prior to Battler using it with Beato to say she can't deny the presence of a hidden door... a theory which Beato crushed with red truth.

It's not surprising Battler used the devil's proof to make a theory as he EVIDENTLY knew it well. However using it proves he has no idea of how the rules of the game worked and gave him no advantage. Actually Beato did him a favour using red or he would have kept thinking in the wrong direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Again, Umineko didn't turn into a mystery until EP5. Before then, all he had to do was just disprove that a witch doesn't exist on the island. There were no Knox's Decalogue, no Van Dine's 20 rules, no rules of mystery that applied at the time, so he had a pretty good idea of what he had to do. It was an Anti- Magic vs Magic debate, Beatrice says that she's a witch on the island and proves it with magic, Battler just has to say no and provided a human explanation for what she has done. All Battler had to do was counter her with logic, he knew that from the get- go, there were no special rules or anything that he needed until EP2.
Wrong. Umineko was a mystery right from the start and you could solve it prior to Ep 5. The problem with Battler is he wasn't genre savvy.
He believes they are in reality so more than with anti-magic he fights Beato with realism. Which is anti-magic but he's not aware of it (in fact Bern will inform him about this).
He completely fail to understand what he's playing with Beato is a mystery game and, even when he's told about Knox in Ep 5, at the beginning rejects it because Knox is an unrealistic approach to things.

In fact in real life if you were to say:

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

you would sound ridicule. When the police will investigate about a murder it's possible they'll neve come up with the culprit's name through all their investigation.
Only around the end of Ep 5 Battler understands that Beato is challenging him to a mystery game. The poor guy was pasically playing at Beato's game without even knowing which sort of game it was even if Beato gave him hints about hers being a mystery game... and she even said in Ep 2:

Quote:
"Hmm. No secret passage exists that you all do not know of. Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems that in mystery novels, there must not be hidden passages, no matter what. I also follow that etiquette."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Not only does it not make any sense for Battler to "forget" things he wrote himself, but it doesn't make any sense as to how Erika would be fooled. She would have to be brain-dead to actually believe that Battler was caught off guard by any of her piece's actions.
I agree.
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Old 2011-12-29, 12:53   Link #26656
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Erika didn't know the rules either. Indeed, she believed herself to be in a very different sort of game than even Battler initially did. While she was aware of the game nature of things, she simply believed she had to "win" with an answer that the red did not contradict. This was of course similar to what Beatrice's rules were, except that we know Beatrice had an ulterior motive (and we know Battler had at least one ulterior motive, because ep6 tells us he does).

Thus, we have to conclude that, like Battler before her, Erika didn't "get" all the rules, which means her ignorance of what she thought Battler was capable of doing as GM can be easily understood. Battler's "ignorance," however, would merit an explanation, as it shouldn't be possible for what happened to happen if Battler actually knew what he was doing, which his TIPS entry says he does.
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Not only does it not make any sense for Battler to "forget" things he wrote himself, but it doesn't make any sense as to how Erika would be fooled. She would have to be brain-dead to actually believe that Battler was caught off guard by any of her piece's actions.
Well, that's the thing; Battler didn't have to write the story exactly as it played out, if his writing was designed to accommodate the idea that Erika would try to derail it to win.

Moreover, in the "have to be a moron" department, consider that Battler was actually trying to give Erika more advantages than she actually ended up getting. The limited seals were a compromise, a dialing-down of power brokered not by Battler's resistance to granting Erika authority, but Erika's own refusal to accept it. When you think about it this way, the "manipulation" of Battler simply makes no sense at all. He wants to give her more, she wants way less. Any negotiator will tell you that this is an immediate sign that the other person is planning something. Either you've undervalued the part you think is "less," or the other person has a plan which only requires that they get the lesser offer.

A good example would be if you were trying to sell a large parcel of undeveloped land to someone. The land is not very valuable, but you're willing to sell it all at a decent price. While negotiating with the buyer, he turns around and says that he'll take only a smaller portion of the land, but will pay far more per acre than you were offering for the whole thing. This should immediately set off warning lights in your head. And indeed, it will often turn out that the smaller parcel he wanted to buy has oil or mineral reserves under it, greatly increasing its value, while the rest of the land is worthless undevelopable junk.

That's exactly the situation in ep6. Battler offers Erika the whole parcel (detective authority) and she refuses it, but is willing to accept a smaller offer of less land (the three seals, applicable retroactively). Battler must know that there is "oil" in there (a trick Erika can play only if she doesn't have full authority). Moreover, he already knows what the "oil" is, because Genji/Ronove told him about Logic Errors when he was designing his game.

Battler would have to ignore all information he has actually acquired (not merely available to him, mind you; he actually learned all of it) in order to make a deal so obviously detrimental to himself, unless he also knows something Erika does not. To go back to our land example, if the seller knows that the mineral rights have already been severed and sold to another company, he knows that the oil knowledge won't actually benefit the buyer because the oil will not belong to him, but to the company that already purchased the mineral rights.

That's the essence of Genius Battler: That Battler knew he wanted a Logic Error to happen and believed or suspected that Erika was going to try for one because she didn't realize just how much knowledge and power the GM actually has. He then set up his story as bait, never intending for it to actually be finished. When you look strictly at the board narrative of ep6, this makes a lot of sense; with all the survivors holed up in the guesthouse, it will be extremely difficult to keep making murders happen. Even more difficult than in ep3, as the survivors are now segregated into only two rooms and watched over by an armed man. This is an incredibly poor setup for the magic side... but it's perfect for creating a Logic Error on the human side.
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Old 2011-12-29, 14:01   Link #26657
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Erika didn't know the rules either. Indeed, she believed herself to be in a very different sort of game than even Battler initially did. While she was aware of the game nature of things, she simply believed she had to "win" with an answer that the red did not contradict. This was of course similar to what Beatrice's rules were, except that we know Beatrice had an ulterior motive (and we know Battler had at least one ulterior motive, because ep6 tells us he does).

That's the essence of Genius Battler: That Battler knew he wanted a Logic Error to happen and believed or suspected that Erika was going to try for one because she didn't realize just how much knowledge and power the GM actually has. He then set up his story as bait, never intending for it to actually be finished. When you look strictly at the board narrative of ep6, this makes a lot of sense; with all the survivors holed up in the guesthouse, it will be extremely difficult to keep making murders happen. Even more difficult than in ep3, as the survivors are now segregated into only two rooms and watched over by an armed man. This is an incredibly poor setup for the magic side... but it's perfect for creating a Logic Error on the human side.
If we compare that to the author-theory it's basically an author who holds a proof-reading phase of his novel. Featherine did this in EP6 when she gave her premature script of Dawn to Ange to read. You give your script to an audience maybe also to see how foolproof the idea is.
Let's take for example Erika (as the know-everything-better reader) in EP6 when she took the narrative blank of what happened in the gap between the discovery of the victims and their re-discovery as being definitely dead. Piece-Erika was not covered in the narrative and not the detective so everybody could use this narrative blank and say, "Hey, maybe she went in there and did it, nothing can disprove it!!". So Battler as an author had to somehow work his way out of this logic- and narrative-error in order to make his story work towards the goal he intended.

So it could also be read as an accusation of how hints can be insufficient because of the narrative structure and the desire of the author to create a suspenseful plot with enough mystery. Battler tried so hard to cloak the truth that somebody without hesitation to accuse the people present on the island would jump on the bandwagon and fire away.
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Old 2011-12-29, 14:24   Link #26658
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True, I just have to think he knew that was going to happen given all the other hints he was dropping about his motivation. I would believe that what most shocked Battler wasn't that Erika would do something to trip him up, but that the only way she could do that successfully was by acting in an utterly depraved manner, and she did it gladly. Even if he was faking the surprise in that scene, I think he was clearly genuinely disgusted with her.

Of course the problem with your (entirely valid) reading would be that it seems to make something of a hypocrite of Ryukishi later. "Because the story refuses to fill in the truth, such terrible things can be said by perverse readers who just want to throw out speculation! And here are some terrible goats doing exactly that! By the way, you the reader don't get to read the truth to fill in that blank. Have fun."
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Old 2011-12-29, 14:47   Link #26659
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Erika didn't know the rules either. Indeed, she believed herself to be in a very different sort of game than even Battler initially did. While she was aware of the game nature of things, she simply believed she had to "win" with an answer that the red did not contradict. This was of course similar to what Beatrice's rules were, except that we know Beatrice had an ulterior motive (and we know Battler had at least one ulterior motive, because ep6 tells us he does).
It's probable you're right however Erika started as Bern's piece and, although she didn't know the truth, she likely knew how the game worked and passed a part of this knowledge to her piece.
When Erika became a player however, Bern witdrawed her help and Erika had to continue on her own.

The decalogue, the detective declaration and such are all things Battler didn't know to be so useful prior to game 5 (although Beato mentioned Knox and Van Dine in Ep 2 he continued to not consider them as 'rules' and ask for confirmation about things Knox and Van Dine could have told him).

Erika evidently pursues victory in a way that wouldn't work if Beato was the GM in 5. She searches for a 'truth' that will amuse her master (and likely the GM) and not for one that is THE TRUTH.

Lambda however gave her free reign and accepted her false truth (while Beato would have stuck it down) so maybe Erika knew the GM would accept a fake truth as long as it fit with some requisites...

Going back to Ep 6....

I think that Battler knew that Erika was after a logic error. He however didn't know how she was going to create it though he helped her to get the means to create it, namely ways to use red truth. First he tries with the detective authority, which she refuses, then with the seals, which she accepts.

However there's a difference between Battler & Erika's knowledge of the game and that is that Battler knew about ShKannon and Erika didn't.

He could have used ShKannon to get himself out of the logic error but either wanted Beato to do it for him or didn't want to use it.

I would say that murders in EP 6 would become pretty difficults but didn't Ryukishi said in an interview that among the plans he later discharged there was a game in which Battler closed everyone in a single room? (though I might remember wrong so feel free to correct me if that's the case).

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
If we compare that to the author-theory it's basically an author who holds a proof-reading phase of his novel. Featherine did this in EP6 when she gave her premature script of Dawn to Ange to read. You give your script to an audience maybe also to see how foolproof the idea is.
Let's take for example Erika (as the know-everything-better reader) in EP6 when she took the narrative blank of what happened in the gap between the discovery of the victims and their re-discovery as being definitely dead. Piece-Erika was not covered in the narrative and not the detective so everybody could use this narrative blank and say, "Hey, maybe she went in there and did it, nothing can disprove it!!". So Battler as an author had to somehow work his way out of this logic- and narrative-error in order to make his story work towards the goal he intended
Sounds like an interesting theory!

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Of course the problem with your (entirely valid) reading would be that it seems to make something of a hypocrite of Ryukishi later. "Because the story refuses to fill in the truth, such terrible things can be said by perverse readers who just want to throw out speculation! And here are some terrible goats doing exactly that! By the way, you the reader don't get to read the truth to fill in that blank. Have fun."
I guess the point Ryukishi is trying to make might also be:
Battler's story was supposed to be a prank but Erika wanted a murder to filled up the blanks with a murder.

Rokkenjima Prime was also supposed to be nothing else but an incident but, if you want to fill the blanks with a gruesome murders, well, have fun.
You're just like Erika.

This however works only if you believe the hints Ryukishi gave that the Rokenjima incident was just an incident are believable enough.

If that's not the case Ryukishi had been too vague in his narrative and being like Erika was a perfectly legittimate decision.
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Old 2011-12-29, 14:51   Link #26660
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Remember that Bern doesn't know everything either (at least at that point). It's very possible even Bernkastel doesn't know how the game works exactly, so she could've been little help to Erika even if she wanted to... and that's the other factor, whether Bern would even tell Erika some critical piece of information if watching her fail would be more amusing. Bern is a dick.

And yes, I don't think Battler knew exactly how Erika was planning to force a Logic Error, but he was clearly trying to give her every opportunity to do it. The Detective Authority was his first offer and perhaps he intended that she use it to somehow entrap him, but his compromise offer is so oddly specific and was so readily agreeable to Erika that he has to have seen her machinations coming. Whether he knew, or suspected, that she'd stoop so low is another matter entirely, I don't know. I'd like to think he suspected it was a way to force a Logic Error but didn't think Erika would be so cruel.
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