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Old 2011-12-30, 21:42   Link #26681
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Actually, he kind of did. In EP3, he saw Eva- Beatrice kill Rosa and got ticked off at how Beatrice could look at this and enjoy it. So he stopped playing, and Beatrice became guilty afterwards.
That's not omniscience, that was just the story Beato bothered going out of her way to show him. As I said, BATTLERS perspective prior to EP6 was Piece-Battlers perspective, and whatever fantasy Beato wanted to show him.



Spoiler for Size:


Again, this is just my opinion, but I'm not particularly well versed in mysteries, either, but I still was sure Umineko was "meant to be solved." I got into the series via the anime, and following the forums rather intently, and when the second arc rolled around with it's lightsabers and goats, I became sure of it's status as a mystery, "with some quirk, as it's written by the Higurashi guy, after all". If anything, I was confused that so many other people suddenly seemed confused. Of course, it's probably just variance in taste and mind-set at this point, so I can't really continue arguing except to say that it was written as a mystery, and many people picked up on that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Just because she said it doesn't mean that she follows the rules, she just simply respects them. Otherwise, if she did follow the rules, why didn't she use them?
That's a really good point - personally, I think that while she did follow Knox, and wanted Battler to succeed, Beato genuinely enjoyed hearing ridiculous theories and fighting back with red for his reaction. Just 'cause she turned out to be a lovesick, pitiable moeblob doesn't mean she can't still troll.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't believe in Shkanon. I recognize it as a theory, but its definitely not the answer. so, of course, Yasu doesn't make sense to me either.
...so how does this work? Mind you, I was less than thrilled with Shkanon, myself - I thought it a joke, and I still nurse an alternative theory in my mind, but it's crushingly obvious that this was Ryukishi's intended solution to Beato's game - why is it "definitely not the answer", and what alternatives are you offering?

Sorry, not to seem like I'm picking on you or something - it's just ... your posts are long, there's a lot to respond to. XD
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Old 2011-12-30, 21:45   Link #26682
AuraTwilight
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No, I don't.
EP6 disagrees. "The purpose of this world was so that I could be with you."

Quote:
I don't believe in Shkanon. I recognize it as a theory, but its definitely not the answer. so, of course, Yasu doesn't make sense to me either.
Well, as long as you accept that it's objectively true. I don't think Shkanon/Yasu are the culprit but I don't doubt all three of them are the same person.
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Old 2011-12-30, 22:19   Link #26683
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I apologize, if it seemed that way, but I wasn't implying that you were dumb. I'm just saying that its just weird how you didn't get that until now.
Apology accepted. And I hope I made clear that I got that part and I was discussing of something else.

Spoiler for Size... too many things to answer...:


... it's 4:00 Am and I keep making typing errors... so I apologize if what I wrote doesn't make much sense... Goodnight... or good morning... :P
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Old 2011-12-30, 22:22   Link #26684
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I haven't really been active on these boards before now, so I'm really late to the party, but some things about episode 8 really bother me. Especially the goats, and the idea that trying to uncover the truth is only the cruel abuse of intellectual rapists.

There was a lot of bad ideas and terrible theories coming from the goats mouths, and for all they were scary for being numerous, they never really got a 'cool' scene. Even other villains like Erika and Bern shine, but the goats are just contemptible and expendable extras. Is this really how the author feels about his readers? Would someone who hates their readers that much really continue to write new stories?

So I kept thinking and found some logic to fight with.

It is possible that Episode 8 was a massive, massive troll by Bernkastel.

Bernkastel is the clear villain of the story and is shown to have the board at the end of Episode 7, and a villain's role is to create as much suffering and misery as possible. Torturing one Ushiromiya Ange is less suffering than torturing all the readers who were expecting answers to the mystery. Letting Ange get off somewhat lightly in order to hurt even more people is just like a villain.


Of course that theory needs a lot more meat to really stand up. But let's pull out some of Will's lines.

Don't forget the heart! As it stands now, Ushiromiya Ange might seem happy, but she can't truly love her family. She might think she does, but she does not.

The loving family scenes of early episode 8 are obviously an illusion. Culprit-less disaster theory doesn't work, because Battler did not come back with Eva and did not announce his survival even after he did. If there were no murders, there would be no reason for Battler and Eva not to reunite as the two survivors of a horrible accidental tragedy.

Illusions to illusions! Loving the illusion of a happy family is not the same as really loving her family. True love requires acknowledging and forgiving the faults in others, not papering over them and pretending they don't exist. The love of an illusion should be returned to illusions.

What kind of sick person would believe in a scenario where the things that happen to Maria are ok? Am I supposed to accept that a little girl being viciously beaten by her mother is fine because Maria believes it's just a bad witch possessing her? Should other people just stay out of it then? Can this really be the writing of the same author who made me cheer for Keichi beating Satoko's uncle to death with a baseball bat??!

The promised reaper lowers the curtain, regardless of the witch's will. Episode 8 actually ended with Bernkastel's complete and incredible triumph. The piece has moved the players instead of vice versa. The fan-base is falsely accused of intellectual rape and many have turned away from the author in disappointment thanks to the game of a clever and hateful witch.

Either the purple text is true, or (in Ryukishi's eyes) I am a culprit of (poorly attempted) intellectual rape for trying to play the game I was invited to. I'm not completely sure of the answer, but I don't want to accept that I'm a culprit without a fight.

But that gives rise to a painful blue idea. It is possible that I am just an over-sensitive fan who doesn't want to accept that one of my favorite authors has very different ideas about the world, and doesn't agree with my way of living. Maybe my ruminations and musings are no better than Erika trying to force the ring onto Battler when he isn't awake to fight back.

This is painfully frustrating. The real world has no red, only an abundance of blue and purples. I wish some-one would tear the lid off this cat-box. If I really am a culprit then I'll confess my why-dunnit gladly. But you can't be a culprit if there's no crime, so have I really done anything bad? Or, as another possible-culprit phrased it, Who Am I!!????
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Old 2011-12-30, 23:33   Link #26685
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Quote:
As it stands now, Ushiromiya Ange might seem happy, but she can't truly love her family. She might think she does, but she does not.
This is a subjective judgment call. Love is by its nature unconditional; Ange can love them based on sincere memories unrelated to the tragedy. Furthermore, people love persons who have wronged and harmed them all the time. Innocence is not a prerequisite of love, nor is delusion.

Quote:
The loving family scenes of early episode 8 are obviously an illusion. Culprit-less disaster theory doesn't work, because Battler did not come back with Eva and did not announce his survival even after he did. If there were no murders, there would be no reason for Battler and Eva not to reunite as the two survivors of a horrible accidental tragedy.
You're forgetting that Ange read the Diary of The Single Truth. She knows exactly what happened and who the culprit is, and loves everyone anyway. We do not learn what happened, but whatever DID happen, Ange came to terms with it.

Quote:
What kind of sick person would believe in a scenario where the things that happen to Maria are ok? Am I supposed to accept that a little girl being viciously beaten by her mother is fine because Maria believes it's just a bad witch possessing her? Should other people just stay out of it then? Can this really be the writing of the same author who made me cheer for Keichi beating Satoko's uncle to death with a baseball bat??!
Rosa demonstrated remorse for her actions multiple times and seemed to be on the road to recovery for her emotional problems. If the tragedy of Rokkenjima didn't happen, Rosa and Maria may have repaired their relationship. It is not Rosa's sin that someone denied her the time to go through with it.

Quote:
Episode 8 actually ended with Bernkastel's complete and incredible triumph. The piece has moved the players instead of vice versa. The fan-base is falsely accused of intellectual rape and many have turned away from the author in disappointment thanks to the game of a clever and hateful witch.
This was not what Bernkastel was attempting to achieve. She did not triumph because the truth was not exposed to the masses.
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Old 2011-12-30, 23:36   Link #26686
Renall
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
@Jan- Poo: Good point, but that's when subjectivity comes into play and we have to ask, "what defines a fish?" Not that I'm saying that I believe that a fish is anything other than what it is, I'm just stating a point.
This conversation is starting to remind me of something, I just can't quite put my finger on it...
Spoiler:
Also it wouldn't surprise me all that much if everything involving Ange is solely about tormenting her. That's pretty much the whole point of her character, it seems.
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Old 2011-12-30, 23:49   Link #26687
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Apology accepted. And I hope I made clear that I got that part and I was discussing of something else.
You did, don't worry.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There's to say game 3 too was ended before reaching the second midnight (we never see Jessica dying but apparently she didn't survive since Eva is the sole survivor) so it's not so unusual to interrupt the story midway.
Okay, I see your point now. But I still don't see how it continued unless you count Kanon's rescuing of Battler a part of the game, but everything else pretty much made it seem like it officially ended. Oh well, I'll see if I can check back on it.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Lambda plays the role of fantasy... however during the trial she passes the duty to defend fantasy to PieceBeatrice... MetaBeato is sort of catathonic.
No idea if MetaBeato is moving PieceBeato though... if Lambda is moving her or if PieceBeato is on autopilot.
As for Ep 6 since Beato was on the fantasy side and revised the tale she likely knows the truth, at least for what regards the part she has corrected in Battler's place. No idea if she knows more.
You have to remember that Beatrice wasn't GM in EP5 Lambda was, and she wasn't defending any side really, though she pretty much enjoyed Erika's Natsuhi- Culprit Theory. In EP6 Beatrice wasn't a GM either, she just remembered the Truth about herself and the game.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
so she confirmed she follows them.... at least for that part.
However if you check the 4 games she followed them for the rest as well.
Ehhh... Not really. In EP6, Battler notices a secret passage after solving the Epitaph with Erika. In EP7, Beatrice stumbles upon it after solving the Epitaph as well. EP3 hints at that same passageway when Eva solves the Epitaph. And in EP4, the adults who survived the First Twilight were in a series of passageways that weren't shown before. So, she broke Knox's third.

She breaks Van Dine's 17th if what is said in EP8 hold true for all of the first four games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not denying the importance of Knox in mystery novels.
You better not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Battler fails to understand Beato isn't presenting him with a real crime case, for which there are no rules but she's challenging him to a mistery game.
In real life you can't apply Knox but in a tale Knox is rather useful.
Battler doesn't seem to get the 'hey, that's a mistery tale!' part which is also why he uses devil's proof and believes there can be a 19th person and so on.
He discusses the games as if they were crimes he was reading about in the news not novels.
Beatrice never told him in the first place, she barely left a hint. In fact, she kept referring to the game as a debate of reasoning, her theory against his, rarely ever leaving a hint that it was a mystery.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, he failed to get what his goal was. This doesn't really undo the fact that the game was a mistery, he simply didn't recognize it as such.
It's as if Beato challenged him to a game of Poker and he believed they were plaing Bridge and tried to apply Bridge's rules to Poker and of course keeps on losing (okay, the two games are different enough he should realize it quickly but it's late and I can't really think to two games who would be similar enough to generate the confusion).
Still, although he's not playing Poker the game he's supposed to play is Poker and Beato is challenging him at Poker.
Beato played dirty and didn't make it cristalline clear (and for plot reasons Ryukishi couldn't allow her to play dirty or the first part of Umineko would have ended way sooner... Battler was supposed to be good at solving misteries...) but still the game was Poker... or better a mistery...
Here's the thing about Poker, or any game really, if you've never played Poker, you won't recognize it. However, if you did play Poker, you would be able to recognize it. Battler has read alot of mysteries, so if he didn't pick up the hint that it was a mystery, then the game, to him, was obviously something different, and it was. It didn't matter whether she was being clear or not, she had left the clues, right? So Battler should've naturally picked up on them.

I'm not saying that Umineko wasn't a mystery from the get- go, but it didn't confirm itself to be until EP5. Before then, it was a completely different game for both some of us, the audience, and Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
... it's 4:00 Am and I keep making typing errors... so I apologize if what I wrote doesn't make much sense... Goodnight... or good morning... :P
You made pretty good amount of sense, don't worry and good night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
I haven't really been active on these boards before now, so I'm really late to the party, but some things about episode 8 really bother me. Especially the goats, and the idea that trying to uncover the truth is only the cruel abuse of intellectual rapists.

There was a lot of bad ideas and terrible theories coming from the goats mouths, and for all they were scary for being numerous, they never really got a 'cool' scene. Even other villains like Erika and Bern shine, but the goats are just contemptible and expendable extras. Is this really how the author feels about his readers? Would someone who hates their readers that much really continue to write new stories?

So I kept thinking and found some logic to fight with.

It is possible that Episode 8 was a massive, massive troll by Bernkastel.

Bernkastel is the clear villain of the story and is shown to have the board at the end of Episode 7, and a villain's role is to create as much suffering and misery as possible. Torturing one Ushiromiya Ange is less suffering than torturing all the readers who were expecting answers to the mystery. Letting Ange get off somewhat lightly in order to hurt even more people is just like a villain.


Of course that theory needs a lot more meat to really stand up. But let's pull out some of Will's lines.

Don't forget the heart! As it stands now, Ushiromiya Ange might seem happy, but she can't truly love her family. She might think she does, but she does not.

The loving family scenes of early episode 8 are obviously an illusion. Culprit-less disaster theory doesn't work, because Battler did not come back with Eva and did not announce his survival even after he did. If there were no murders, there would be no reason for Battler and Eva not to reunite as the two survivors of a horrible accidental tragedy.

Illusions to illusions! Loving the illusion of a happy family is not the same as really loving her family. True love requires acknowledging and forgiving the faults in others, not papering over them and pretending they don't exist. The love of an illusion should be returned to illusions.

What kind of sick person would believe in a scenario where the things that happen to Maria are ok? Am I supposed to accept that a little girl being viciously beaten by her mother is fine because Maria believes it's just a bad witch possessing her? Should other people just stay out of it then? Can this really be the writing of the same author who made me cheer for Keichi beating Satoko's uncle to death with a baseball bat??!

The promised reaper lowers the curtain, regardless of the witch's will. Episode 8 actually ended with Bernkastel's complete and incredible triumph. The piece has moved the players instead of vice versa. The fan-base is falsely accused of intellectual rape and many have turned away from the author in disappointment thanks to the game of a clever and hateful witch.

Either the purple text is true, or (in Ryukishi's eyes) I am a culprit of (poorly attempted) intellectual rape for trying to play the game I was invited to. I'm not completely sure of the answer, but I don't want to accept that I'm a culprit without a fight.

But that gives rise to a painful blue idea. It is possible that I am just an over-sensitive fan who doesn't want to accept that one of my favorite authors has very different ideas about the world, and doesn't agree with my way of living. Maybe my ruminations and musings are no better than Erika trying to force the ring onto Battler when he isn't awake to fight back.

This is painfully frustrating. The real world has no red, only an abundance of blue and purples. I wish some-one would tear the lid off this cat-box. If I really am a culprit then I'll confess my why-dunnit gladly. But you can't be a culprit if there's no crime, so have I really done anything bad? Or, as another possible-culprit phrased it, Who Am I!!????
You're over- thinking things, my friend.

The truth Ryukishi07 wanted us to see in this game is that there are more than one truths. He's been saying that since EP3 when they introduced the catbox. He wants us to go back and form our own conclusions, its okay because Umineko is a catbox. He hasn't given us an answer because he wants to see our conclusions first. He enjoys seeing us work our way up the logic ladder and form different ideas. The illusion Battler showed Ange is true. Not to say that its the truth, but it is true in the fact that Ange loved her family deeply, yet she has this view of them where the adults are all greedy and coniving and her grandfather is a maniac. Its not because she didn't really love them, its because she spent twelve years without seeing them and having to hold this deep sadness that inevitably made her forget what her family was really like. Battler was just trying to remind her how fun her family was and that the stories only show one side of that.

With that I shall say, If you go back to the beginning and draw your own conclusions, I'm sure the catbox will be opened for you because you opened yourself. Then it will be your choice to decided whether the cat is dead or alive.
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Old 2011-12-30, 23:50   Link #26688
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This is a subjective judgment call. Love is by its nature unconditional; Ange can love them based on sincere memories unrelated to the tragedy. Furthermore, people love persons who have wronged and harmed them all the time. Innocence is not a prerequisite of love, nor is delusion.
I think I'm being misunderstood slightly in this part. I don't think that innocence or delusion are required, especially not delusion. Rather, the absence of delusion is something I think is necessary.

Well, that's a nit pick I suppose. I am soundly vanquished.
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Old 2011-12-30, 23:57   Link #26689
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This conversation is starting to remind me of something, I just can't quite put my finger on it...
Spoiler:
Also it wouldn't surprise me all that much if everything involving Ange is solely about tormenting her. That's pretty much the whole point of her character, it seems.
Sounds like a referrence to a qoute from Big O...

"A bird whose feathers have been plucked will revert to the beast it was before it became a bird."

Or something like that.
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Old 2011-12-31, 00:05   Link #26690
AuraTwilight
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I don't think so, because Big O seemed to know what it was talking about. Not the writer's fault the third season got cancelled.
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Old 2011-12-31, 00:27   Link #26691
Arcanis
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Our Confessions has already been scanned and uploaded on the usual sites... Has anyone checked it out? It looks a lot more promising than I thought from what little I can understand.

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-12-31, 00:50   Link #26692
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Well, before anyone can actually translate it I imagine they've got to read it first, that might take a while. How long is it?

EDIT: Oh wow, it's quite short (by Umineko standards). About 39 pages apparently. Well, 38. One page is a sketch.
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:20   Link #26693
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I'm guessing Flauros was an unused demon furniture (she has the one winged eagle). Flauros is an alternate spelling Haures, who is 64th demon.

In all honesty, she just reminds me of Orin from Touhou

Spoiler for Sketch of Flauros:

Last edited by Falsetto; 2011-12-31 at 01:34.
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:25   Link #26694
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Originally Posted by Arcanis View Post
Our Confessions has already been scanned and uploaded on the usual sites... Has anyone checked it out? It looks a lot more promising than I thought from what little I can understand.

Spoiler:
Finally been scanned? Time to read out some answers!!!
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:26   Link #26695
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Originally Posted by Falsetto View Post
I'm guessing Flauros was an unused demon furniture (she has the one winged eagle). Flauros is an alternate spelling Haures, who is 63th demon.

In all honesty, she just reminds me of Orin from Touhou

Spoiler for Sketch of Flauros:
It says she's the 64th demon though.

And wow it took me a while to notice the One Winged Eagle.
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:33   Link #26696
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Wish they could make their females without overbreasting them and barelegging them.


I don't mind fan service and sexy characters, but they need to have the artwork to justify using it, and the pasty graphics of Umineko do not do such outfits justice, I doubt even some of the biggest perverts would find any form of attraction to it.(although most anime has stupid sex appeal that isn't sexy in my opinion).



EDIT: Just because I say female doesn't mean I am ignoring the possibility of it being male.
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:35   Link #26697
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Originally Posted by Arcanis View Post
It says she's the 64th demon though.

And wow it took me a while to notice the One Winged Eagle.
Sorry, my mistake.
Fixed.
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Old 2011-12-31, 01:42   Link #26698
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Originally Posted by Falsetto View Post
I'm guessing Flauros was an unused demon furniture (she has the one winged eagle). Flauros is an alternate spelling Haures, who is 64th demon.

In all honesty, she just reminds me of Orin from Touhou

Spoiler for Sketch of Flauros:
Wow, she's possibly the sexiest character in the series, and possibly the best- looking cat- person I've ever seen (and that's alot, just to let you know).
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Old 2011-12-31, 02:31   Link #26699
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
From a meta-perspective I'd say that the whole gameboard is in never-ending process. You change it by thinking about it differently, you rearrange pieces, put new elements on the board and discard old pieces. The basis of this idea is the basic principle that every arrangement of the board is different (this means the individual Episodes). They are all played on the same board (Rokkenjima) but what is placed on it depends on how the two contrahents argue. Eva-Beatrice for example was a piece that was basically discarded from the gameboard because of the mutual agreement of both parties (Beato and Battler) that there was no element like that.
Thus this is like talking about a stories that has obvious blanks in it's narrative and discussing how you could fill them.
Yeah, this is an interpretation I have thought about and like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Bernkastel is getting her assumptions from Lambdadelta, who knows the truth of the game, so I'm going to assume that she's right. Otherwise, I don't see how any of us can come up with an objective answer.
Objective answers? In Umineko?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't believe in Shkanon. I recognize it as a theory, but its definitely not the answer. so, of course, Yasu doesn't make sense to me either.
"I don't believe in ShKanon" can mean a number of different things. Can you elaborate?
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Old 2011-12-31, 02:58   Link #26700
Kealym
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Huh - I kind of like her look.

But really ... ANOTHER half naked fanservice girl? I wonder what her schtick would have been - maybe the super-sharp cutting implement suggested for EP5's first twilight..?
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