AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-12-31, 03:57   Link #26701
ErenselTheJester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Objective answers? In Umineko?
Well, there has to be one somewhere...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
"I don't believe in ShKanon" can mean a number of different things. Can you elaborate?
I'll re- word myself, I'm Anti- ShKanon. How about that?
ErenselTheJester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 03:59   Link #26702
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I find it completely fucking hilarious that Ryukishi can't even go 38 pages in a booklet without inventing a new character. LOL.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 04:29   Link #26703
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
AuraTwilight did you read it already??
ohh cant waittt.
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 05:41   Link #26704
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
No, I just looked at the scans.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 06:21   Link #26705
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 26
Quote:
In EP6, Battler notices a secret passage after solving the Epitaph with Erika. In EP7, Beatrice stumbles upon it after solving the Epitaph as well. EP3 hints at that same passageway when Eva solves the Epitaph. And in EP4, the adults who survived the First Twilight were in a series of passageways that weren't shown before. So, she broke Knox's third.
This is kind of true, even if you use the original interpretation of Knox, only one secret passage is allowed and there should be clues to it. But I think Beatrice still holds to the spirit of the rules. In a situation where she would have to dodge Dlanor's sword or something, I think she would still survive.

Let's say the one allowed secret passage is the room with the gold. It's a well suspected thing from the beginning that the gold is hidden somewhere, so that's fine.

The underground passage to Kuwadorian is not a problem. Eva uses it to escape, but that was never a mystery, just something that was stated explicitly. She may as well have traveled there over land and the story would not change. Same thing with the passage to the sub base, that Battler alledgedly uses to escape. Beatrice could probably state something like "These passages are irrelevant to the murders" in red and the integrity of her mystery would be protected.

Oh, and the dungeon beneath Kuwadorian / the well ? I have an answer to that...It doesn't exist. Only Kanon supposedly died in there. To me this was actually an important clue. So I think it was acceptable.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 06:49   Link #26706
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Alternatively, Passages that the detective cannot find are HIDDEN, and not allowed. However, both Erika and Battler have been shown as capable of finding this passage, so it's not hidden at all, in the sense that Knox seeks to prevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I'll re- word myself, I'm Anti- ShKanon. How about that?
Still, could you elaborate? As I said, Shkanon was clearly Ryukishi's intended solution to at least EPs 1-4, and 6. Of course, 1-4 never NEEDS Shkanon for what amounts to essentially the same solution (Shannon + Kanon accomplices) ... in fact, Shannon+Kanon accomplices just makes their lives as culprits far easier than Shkanon. BUT, it's hard to deny at this point that that was the intended solution, right?
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 07:07   Link #26707
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
I dont think it was the intended solution, that is, it wasn't the solution Yasu wanted. She seriously wanted to have Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice be individual people and while inside the box, they were individuals. Beatrice forced them to be outside of the box in ep6, thus destroying the possibility of them being individuals and that hurt her a lot.

At least, thats my take on the Shkanon issue when combined with the whole quantum box mechanic.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 07:33   Link #26708
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
I would argue back that Shannon / Kanon / Beatrice ARE individual people ... in the Fantasy. She wanted Battler to realize what that meant in regards to her feelings, which he did, and he even took up the mantle of supporting that Fantasy.

I agree with you about EP6, though - it was mentioned that the Logic Error exposed a deep part of her heart, in that it's the only closed room problem in the entire series that actually forces that issue.

I would also ... somewhat lulzily argue that Yasu's desires can be labelled irrelevant, as she's merely Ryukishi's piece, and Shkanon was clearly his intended solution.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 07:53   Link #26709
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I know it's against the rule and all, but somebody... please spoil us what happened in that booklet...
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 08:33   Link #26710
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
Yeah . Spoil us!!!! lol
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 09:20   Link #26711
theacefrehley
Guitar Man
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
If nobody is going to translate, I could give it a try, maybe?
(Warning: my english not so good)
__________________
[]'s from Ace
theacefrehley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 09:38   Link #26712
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Sounds like a referrence to a qoute from Big O...

"A bird whose feathers have been plucked will revert to the beast it was before it became a bird."

Or something like that.
Sorry if I quote this and I go a little off-topic, but...

Birds descend from dinosaurs!!!! That would be an upgrade!!! Who cares about flying when you are a fucking badass giant therapod?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
If nobody is going to translate, I could give it a try, maybe?
(Warning: my english not so good)
Still better than agth, go for it
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 09:51   Link #26713
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
If nobody is going to translate, I could give it a try, maybe?
(Warning: my english not so good)
If you have free time. please. lol. thanks
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 12:00   Link #26714
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
If nobody is going to translate, I could give it a try, maybe?
(Warning: my english not so good)
YES, PLEASE! Actually spoiler is enough for me....
Even though I'm quite unsure of what to expect in the booklet. Certainly not very interested for another love-sick Yasu... It would be nice if he actually write down what happened, but he would not be so generous, would he?
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 12:42   Link #26715
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I'll re- word myself, I'm Anti- ShKanon. How about that?
Not really what I'm looking for. Like, do you believe that ShKanon isn't the solution for the games? That ShKanon doesn't exist in R-Prime? That there was no such person as Yasu at all? That Yasu had multiple identities but didn't actually dress up as Kanon in front of people? That Yasu existed as Shannon and there was no Kanon at all? ...That kind if information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
If nobody is going to translate, I could give it a try, maybe?
(Warning: my english not so good)
But is your Japanese good? I could maybe help with editing, since I'm a native English speaker who knows some Japanese. Or I could do some translating myself if I had highlightable text rather than just images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
YES, PLEASE! Actually spoiler is enough for me....
Even though I'm quite unsure of what to expect in the booklet. Certainly not very interested for another love-sick Yasu... It would be nice if he actually write down what happened, but he would not be so generous, would he?
From skimming it, it seems that it's mostly about showing a game board from Beatrice's perspective.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 13:06   Link #26716
ErenselTheJester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Still, could you elaborate?
I don't think I can. I don't see what else I could possibly mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
As I said, Shkanon was clearly Ryukishi's intended solution to at least EPs 1-4, and 6. Of course, 1-4 never NEEDS Shkanon for what amounts to essentially the same solution (Shannon + Kanon accomplices) ... in fact, Shannon+Kanon accomplices just makes their lives as culprits far easier than Shkanon. BUT, it's hard to deny at this point that that was the intended solution, right?
And this is where I disagree. In fact, I'll try to elaborate my viewpoint here.

ShKanon just isn't necessary, there's no solid proof that a person goes ahead and switches personas on such a frequent basis that he/she fools everyone into thinking that the personas are two individual people.

Even if Ryukishi is trying to push the theory as his intended answer, his writing doesn't reflect that and still leaves room for other interpretations.

Thus, I don't believe in ShKanon because there's no proof for it and it isn't necessary at all. And because I don't believe in that, Yasu doesn't make sense because that's what her story suggests.

Do I still need to elaborate?

Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2011-12-31 at 13:23.
ErenselTheJester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 13:12   Link #26717
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Actually ShKanon trick is sorta necessary, not to solve riddles, but to solve... Kanon's missing corpse.
You can't even call it a mystery solution if you reach an idea such as "Kanon's body just somehow vanished for some reason".

However, Umineko's almost central theme is not to have a single truth crushing down all other truths, so yeah I think you have the right attitude to try to reach a different solution then the intended one.

Unrelated but I wanted to whine....
... "Our Confession" is going to be a pain to fully clean for me...
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 13:18   Link #26718
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I don't think there's much point in trying to make Ersnel change his mind. If he doesn't believe shkanon is true after all the overwhelming evidence that we have, absolutely nothing could change that.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 15:08   Link #26719
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Do I still need to elaborate?
No, I suppose not. I think we're more on the same page than not. Many people, self included, find Shkanon unnecessary (it doesn't solve any murders), implausible (really? Nobody noticed?), and silly (more elegant solutions have been suggested). BUT, after the Love Duel in EP6, and certain tidbits of EPs7 and 8, it just seems odd to argue that that isn't the answer Ryukishi was gunning for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually ShKanon trick is sorta necessary, not to solve riddles, but to solve... Kanon's missing corpse.
You can't even call it a mystery solution if you reach an idea such as "Kanon's body just somehow vanished for some reason".
Not so - I wasn't convinced of Shkanon until the Love Duel, so my solution the the first four arcs had been Shannon is the culprit. Kanon is her accomplice. However, they will disagree about something before the end of the game, causing her to kill Kanon and hide his corpse so the survivors have someone to blame for future murders.

The only solution that MIGHT change from what the general consensus is, with this, is whether or not you wanna say Shannon killed Kanon in Legend. Hell, I've always had a pet theory that Shannon / Kanon were physically distinct people who both happened to believe themselves Beatrice without informing the other, due to coincidence and bad timing.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-31, 15:17   Link #26720
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I still think it would've been better if Shannon and Kanon were two separate people both pretending to be Beatrice but didn't know what the other was up to. It'd explain all the problems HILARIOUSLY, and would shift Shkanontrice to "Meta-Beatrice represents the contradictory characterizations of Kanon and Shannon mashed together."
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.