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Old 2009-10-26, 10:44   Link #2661
Workworkwork
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I think Battler's counter to Nanjos death in EP3 should NOT be accepted, because that seemed like an acceptance that EVA was real.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:14   Link #2662
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
I think Battler's counter to Nanjos death in EP3 should NOT be accepted, because that seemed like an acceptance that EVA was real.
The counter for Nanjo's death was that somebody that wasn't confirmed dead before the red web attack killed Nanjo and then died themselves. Which generally should be the answer, since EVA pretty much denied everyone else alive at that point killing him.

Spoiler for Quote from EP 4:
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:35   Link #2663
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How does showing an example of a loophole in the Red disprove my statement that there are loopholes in the Red? And I understand that the Gold requires different criteria, but the point of using it is that it can't be contested because it is absolute truth with no 'tricks'.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:40   Link #2664
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
The counter for Nanjo's death was that somebody that wasn't confirmed dead before the red web attack killed Nanjo and then died themselves. Which generally should be the answer, since EVA pretty much denied everyone else alive at that point killing him.
The person who was pretending to be dead has to be either one of the first twilight deaths, or, due to the nature of her injuries, Kyrie.

I'm betting on Kyrie here.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:41   Link #2665
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
as is Ange's in 1998 and all viewpoints before October 4, 1986 and after October 5 as Beatrice can't go outside the gameboard.
What about the scene when Shannon and Kanon met Beatrice while cleaning the portraint? The breaking of the mirror to release Beatrice from magical restriction?(In the beginning of EP2)

The scene where Ange summoned the seven stakes to kill Kasumi and "the men in black"? The seemingly communication between living Maria before 1986 and Ange in 1998?

You can't take them as reliable narration even though Beatrice's game consisted of only two days, or do you?
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:43   Link #2666
Workworkwork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
The counter for Nanjo's death was that somebody that wasn't confirmed dead before the red web attack killed Nanjo and then died themselves. Which generally should be the answer, since EVA pretty much denied everyone else alive at that point killing him.

Spoiler for Quote from EP 4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Isn't it the reverse should be true? If you don't accept Battler's counter argument, then you must resort to Eva killing Nanjo. In fact, I think the absense of any counter argument in Ep4 ??? means that what Battler said is the truth (of course, what Battler said is just what the readers speculate, Ryukishi07 was merely trying to rebuke some of the false theories in the game). The argument of Battler is just that someone who was thought to have died had killed Nanjo and then died before the red statement was said. That someone was real, but not Eva.
My point was was that Battler referenced a magical being, EVA-Beatrice, and the red text as an actual tool, rather than a narrative device, as the basis for his blue. Therefore, that was always a bigger flag for me than small bombs.

What I think is that someone on Rokkenjima besides Kinzo is already dead. Perhaps several people, or someone is using an alias.

The people I still have a high suspicion toward are Genji, Kumasawa, and Kyrie. The first 2 could be long dead, and two others are just putting on a convincing disguise.

The last one could be Asumu, who may have lost her memory/was well aware she was tricking Rudolph/something of that nature which would cause her to use the name "Kyrie", and since we have never been told in red that Kyrie is alive in the beginning of the game, or that Ushiromiya Asumu is dead, I think she's still extremely suspicious.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:44   Link #2667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The actual sentence is 身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない!

You quoted the latter part of the sentence, but its meaning depends on the first part, while the first part is talking about dead bodies with unclear identities (身元不明死体). 死体 means corpses, or dead bodies. Technically, something nonliving but made into bodylike corpses was not included in the red text.

Of course there is wordplay.
This is mere speculation from your part. In my opinion what Beatrice wanted to say is that the bodies are exactly what they seem to be, the body double part is an addition meant to deny even fake bodies.
In ep5 it was made clear that Beatrice isn't trying to deceive Battler she's trying to help him find the truth, so this kind of wordplay you suggest doesn't work for me.

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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Isn't the point of the Gold text that there is no possible loopholes, misinterpretations, wordplay, etc. involved? Which would imply there IS in much of the Red.
Who knows? We know nothing about the golden truth. Even popular beliefs like "it's a stronger version of the red truth" are completely baseless speculations.

Actually Dlanor says that the golden truth is sometimes superior to the red truth and sometimes inferior.

Beside that the only known thing is that only the gamemaster can use it.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:49   Link #2668
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is mere speculation from your part. In my opinion what Beatrice wanted to say is that the bodies are exactly what they seem to be, the body double part is an addition meant to deny even fake bodies.
In ep5 it was made clear that Beatrice isn't trying to deceive Battler she's trying to help him find the truth, so this kind of wordplay you suggest doesn't work for me.



Who knows? We know nothing about the golden truth. Even popular beliefs like "it's a stronger version of the red truth" are completely baseless speculations.

Actually Dlanor says that the golden truth is sometimes superior to the red truth and sometimes inferior.

Beside that the only known thing is that only the gamemaster can use it.
What I think she means by inferior is that it's not a very good tool for defeating the opponent. With the red truth, you can re-twist or specify the meaning, keeping your opponent on guard, but with the gold truth, you can't "Upgrade" its strength any further, so it stays at face value.
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Old 2009-10-26, 11:59   Link #2669
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is mere speculation from your part. In my opinion what Beatrice wanted to say is that the bodies are exactly what they seem to be, the body double part is an addition meant to deny even fake bodies.
In ep5 it was made clear that Beatrice isn't trying to deceive Battler she's trying to help him find the truth, so this kind of wordplay you suggest doesn't work for me.
Interestingly, if helping Battler to find out the truth is the only goal of Beatrice, then Beatrice should tell Battler the truth right away.The other major goal is to give sufficient hints to let Battler find out the truth, right? I believe I have solved this mystery with the help of Beatrice, given that Beatrice had never stated something as less ambiguous like "In the first night of EP1, the six, upon discovery, were already dead."

Anyway, if they were indeed as dead as you were saying, then an alternative theory has to be formulated. In this case, Kannon needed to survive to kill Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji, and he soon died after shooting Natsuhi (similar to battler's counter account of Nanjo's death in EP3). This still put question on why the remaining children go missing (a catastrophic event as in EP4?). But then, anyone would have killed the six and what was the reason for destorying the face (The use of similar weapon from EP4 but this time shooting right into the face?)?

What is your views then?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-26 at 12:16.
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Old 2009-10-26, 12:40   Link #2670
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this is a hard nut to crack, however if my interpretation is correct then what was denied is that you can't have body doubles (corpses or things disguised as someone else) and all the corpses whose identity is unclear are confirmed by Beatrice.

This doesn't deny someone faking his own death. It wouldn't be a body double, and it wouldn't be a corpse either (which is something you also noticed in your speculation).

There are however limitations on how to use this "possibility". Shannon is a prime suspect because she was in a blind and dark spot and we aren't even sure if she was thoroughly checked by Nanjo, so it isn't 100% sure that half of her face was smashed.

In this case however you'd need to imagine for her a way to get outside, because the shed was locked.

Alternatively an easy way to explain everything is with Kanon. The red text seems to imply he didn't die at all, so you can imagine he faked his death and Nanjo and Jessica covered the truth.

However it's not like this option completely satisfies me, mainly because Kanon at this point seems way too obvious as a culprit. If it will be revealed that he's the mastermind, the culprit, or one of the murderers no one would be surprised at all.
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Old 2009-10-26, 13:30   Link #2671
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Hey Jan-Poo, I was reading the Episode 17 discussion thread about the numbers on the door, and I was thinking...

It's probably a consolation prize from Real!Beatrice to Battler, right? After all, she probably intended for Battler to figure out the Epitaph right away, but since somebody else found out, the most she could give was(Assuming) 100 million yen.

Of course, Battler had to drive poor Eva over the edge, so I guess that didn't work out too well.
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Old 2009-10-26, 13:43   Link #2672
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The problem is with that number alone there isn't really much that can be done. You also need a card a key and of course you need to know which is the bank you need to go to.

So I really have no clue about the purpose of showing that.

The only thing I can think of is that being a password it has some meaning. People that don't know any better use birthday dates as passwords. Of course I don't think this is simply a birthday date, but it might be something on those lines.
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Old 2009-10-26, 14:45   Link #2673
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well, whoever wrote it hoped for some reaction if he/she went out of his way to display it. i like the theory it's related to Battler's sin, but if it is, he didn't quite get the hint. (unless his birthday has something to do with it.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Interestingly, if helping Battler to find out the truth is the only goal of Beatrice, then Beatrice should tell Battler the truth right away.
Spoiler for EP3:
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Old 2009-10-26, 14:58   Link #2674
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The problem is with that number alone there isn't really much that can be done. You also need a card a key and of course you need to know which is the bank you need to go to.

So I really have no clue about the purpose of showing that.

The only thing I can think of is that being a password it has some meaning. People that don't know any better use birthday dates as passwords. Of course I don't think this is simply a birthday date, but it might be something on those lines.
The alternate possibility is the person who wrote the numbers did it as a message to someone who was still alive. They may not have even known what it meant. They either knew it ahead of time and used it as a message to someone else who would know, or they didn't know but wrote it as a message to someone else they believed did know. It's possible it was just a warning ("I know what you're up to"), but Eva and Battler weren't the people it was directed to, so they didn't understand its purpose.
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Old 2009-10-26, 15:07   Link #2675
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The actual sentence is 身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない!

You quoted the latter part of the sentence, but its meaning depends on the first part, while the first part is talking about dead bodies with unclear identities (身元不明死体). 死体 means corpses, or dead bodies. Technically, something nonliving but made into bodylike corpses was not included in the red text.

Of course there is wordplay.
So you're refering to a fake body?

If we say that there is a corpse fabrication lab located somewhere on the island we can come up with all sorts of crazy shit.

In my personal opinion though, fake bodies violate rule four of knox. You'd need a long scientific explanation to explain how a convincing looking fake body was created.

Also my interpretation of the golden truth, is that the red truth can be used to clarify or obfuscate, but the golden truth could only be used to clarify matters, bringing the reader closer to the real truth.

For instance Beatrice saying "Kanon did not commit suicide" misleads Battler into thinking that Kanon actually died in the first episode, which if you watch the first episode again is clearly not the case.

General update:
Decided not to post an elaborate writeup of episode two. It's pretty obvious imo that Genji and Shannon orchestrate the whole affair. There is probably room for alternative theories (for instance amusing there's a fake body lab on the island lol) but it's simple clean and doesn't have any contradictions.

Starting episode three now, and already I'm starting to notice patterns. Today while taking an exam, I realized that several elements from the first two games were missing from the third game.

Genji was the one responsible for writing the witches letters in games one through three. In game three he dies during the first twilight, and that is the reason we don't get letters from the witch after the first twilight.

Which is a shame, since I really enjoyed those discord letter scenes.

Last edited by scwizard; 2009-10-26 at 15:18.
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Old 2009-10-26, 15:09   Link #2676
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actually I can only think of Eva and Battler as possible receivers of such a message.

Battler... because we already know that Beatrice is trying to make him understand something, and maybe that number has a meaning he's supposed to remember

Eva, because she has found the gold. What bugs me is the fact that Eva jots the number down on a piece of paper.
One of the things I speculated is that by solving the epitaph you come across to a sort of code to convert numbers into letters and viceversa.
With this I can explain why Eva jots it down. That would be because she noticed a pattern and she is "translating" this number using the same code she used for the epitaph.
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Old 2009-10-26, 15:36   Link #2677
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Well I guess I shouldn't say episode two is so clear cut. If you think Rosa is lying about the lock on the chapel then that leads to weirder theories. And most people do think that Rosa is lying about the lock on the chapel.

If you conclude that she's not though, and buy my theory about Maria locking the chapel for Beatrice, then it's pretty straightforward.
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Old 2009-10-26, 19:08   Link #2678
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The person who was pretending to be dead has to be either one of the first twilight deaths, or, due to the nature of her injuries, Kyrie.

I'm betting on Kyrie here.
The first part is almost impossible.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
The 6 people died instantly!

This was said after the first twilight. Unless the fake name theory for Kanon and Shannon is in play, they are really dead.

Rosa and Maria were also declared dead in red soon after their deaths. The remaining suspects for Nanjo's murder are then: Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, George, Natushi and Krauss. Then again, it's pretty doubtful that Natsuhi or Krauss did it with what we know now. That person had to be injured, else she would have either joined Battler and Eva, if Nanjo was guilty of something, or gone to kill Eva and Battler if it was the killer uninjured.

Rosa did not fire her weapon. This imply that she saw someone not suspicious unless she was taken completely by surprise. You think it would be the case if it was someone supposed to be dead?

Last thing: Let's not forget something went wrong in EP3 since Eva came back.
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Old 2009-10-26, 19:41   Link #2679
Marion
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Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
The first part is almost impossible.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
The 6 people died instantly!

This was said after the first twilight. Unless the fake name theory for Kanon and Shannon is in play, they are really dead.

Rosa and Maria were also declared dead in red soon after their deaths. The remaining suspects for Nanjo's murder are then: Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, George, Natushi and Krauss. Then again, it's pretty doubtful that Natsuhi or Krauss did it with what we know now. That person had to be injured, else she would have either joined Battler and Eva, if Nanjo was guilty of something, or gone to kill Eva and Battler if it was the killer uninjured.

Rosa did not fire her weapon. This imply that she saw someone not suspicious unless she was taken completely by surprise. You think it would be the case if it was someone supposed to be dead?

Last thing: Let's not forget something went wrong in EP3 since Eva came back.
Natsuhi and Krauss had their knee and ankle impaled. I doubt they could walk from the arbor to the mansion and then kill Nanjo. Only viable suspects are Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Kyrie and considering that Mammon's stake was found by the police it was probably Kyrie.
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Old 2009-10-26, 20:13   Link #2680
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No suspicion on "He was still living..." Hideyoshi? Nobody?
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