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Old 2012-01-06, 15:10   Link #26921
UsagiTenpura
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I've been considering the following:
Considering the crimes to be mystery made to look like fantasy isn't really any different then the exact opposite, crimes being fantasy made to look like mystery. With that in mind I've reviewed a bunch of the mysteries and themes from that outlook to see if anything would come out differently.

I've found it works as a perfect analogy to the idea that "the world of fiction" sorta has no limits to fantasy or mystery or anything, so "fiction" as a whole is more similar to fantasy. When one makes a mystery following the laws of physics it's a limitation they force on themselves, so it's really like a witch using magic but to look like it's a mystery. One thing is that the final trick/magic question of arc 8 seems to be less stupid and make more sense to me if you consider that it really was magic but really made to look like a trick.

More importantly I've sorta realized that while in the question arcs, we are shown a fantasy that we cannot accept and made to deny, in chiru it's basically the exact opposite (mystery takes on the role of fantasy). This leads me to believe that actually neither are the story that Ryuukishi wants us to accept. I'm assuming he wanted us to get a deeper meta-meaning to both stories, or to our relations with both. I wonder if this is the "third story" mentioned in OC.
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Old 2012-01-07, 04:33   Link #26922
Thanatos of Crows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You, sir, are a motherfucking genius.
You never fail to cover for me when I manage not to be a sarcastic bastard.

Quote:
* Beatrice could sing, and had the nickname of "Beato" - "beat", perhaps.
This... Yup, the nicname certainly isn't a shortening of the japanese spelling of her name, no. Let's just throw Knox's 8th out of the window and rely on the 9th.

And wow, almost 12 hours since I last visited and only one new serious post. I'm flabbergasted.
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Old 2012-01-07, 23:54   Link #26923
WitchOfDoubt
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This... Yup, the nicname certainly isn't a shortening of the japanese spelling of her name, no. Let's just throw Knox's 8th out of the window and rely on the 9th.
Then... then... "Man in the Mirror" isn't about Beatrice?
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Old 2012-01-08, 08:03   Link #26924
Uberzaki
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The confession has Beatrice drawing up one of the demons

Does that mean that the characters were all drawn up by Beatrice, or am I reading into things too much?
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Old 2012-01-08, 08:10   Link #26925
RedKey
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
The confession has Beatrice drawing up one of the demons

Does that mean that the characters were all drawn up by Beatrice, or am I reading into things too much?
The visual representations of Ronove, Gaap, Virgilia, the Siesta Sisters, etc. were drawn by Beatrice and Maria while playing together on Rokkenjima as Mariage Sorcière.
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Old 2012-01-08, 08:53   Link #26926
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They were most probably all "drawn" by Beatrice in Maria's diary or some other piece of paper. In EP4 we were told that Beatrice drew Sakutaro in his human form, and only after that we begin to see sakutaro's sprite.

We can assume that the same was done for the siesta and the stakes. Apparently Beatrice is skilled at drawing and Maria isn't. So for the most part Maria gave the ideas (witch of origin) and Beatrice gave them form.

This Flauros seems to be Beatrice's solo creation, but it was Maria who introduced Beatrice to the demons of the solomon key in the first place.
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Old 2012-01-08, 14:19   Link #26927
Uberzaki
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Ah, thanks for the info; I was thinking this might only apply to summons (and the like), and that seems to be the case.
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Old 2012-01-08, 18:56   Link #26928
Toku
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One thing I noticed in Our Confessions is that both Kanon and Shannon seem to only have actual personalities within the realm of the game board (in other words, in Yasu's stories). And even then, we see conversations between them and Beatrice that makes it look almost like they have no real personality of their own after all.

Actually, even throughout EP1-8, Shannon and Kanon are a little lacking in terms of personality. Leaving aside Kanon (who I probably wouldn't even need to explain), Shannon isn't much better... Even when it comes to George, she really doesn't seem to have any reason for loving him in particular, and just listens and nods her head when he speaks about all of his superficial dreams, and sometimes questions him whether his words can really be trusted. I know that there's the stuff from EP2 about him sticking up for her when she's under pressure from the adults, but... While she certainly might think of him as an ally and friend, I simply can't imagine a thought like "I exist to love you" popping up in her head as a result (which she said in EP6).

Not only that, there's the obvious fact that Yasu has been creating Flauros, the Stakes, the designs for the Siestas/Sakutarou like this. And even when it comes to Gaap (the first new "personality"), there was a scene in EP7 that had Yasu essentially commanding and modifying her like an author would do to their character in a story... And Gaap went along with it with only minor objections that Yasu probably wanted her to have. I couldn't get over the bizarre feeling of how lacking her personality was in that moment.

....What I'm getting at is, I don't think Yasu is "Shkannontrice" or whatever people say she is. These "personalities" certainly aren't anything like that. Yasu was never schizophrenic or DID or anything like that. In fact, aside from a case of depression (because of a broken heart), I see no evidence of any real mental disorder here. She's simply an author who loves the characters she writes about, and uses them to try and convey her feelings. She's also a big dreamer (not that this is a bad thing at all), and absent-minded to the point of having to write everything down so she doesn't forget.

Speaking of conveying her feelings, that's another thing I was thinking about. Battler may have forgotten his promise, but he never really forgot the feelings he had for her. She was his first love, after all, and it seems he's never really had a romantic interest in anyone else. ...When the two met again on Rokkenjima of 1986, it should have become apparent at some point that if she put aside the thing about the promise for just a bit, she could have easily started a new relationship with him.

I understand the deep emotional pain that resulted from the whole promise thing, and I think that this pain is warranted, given that she made it very clear she was serious about it when he made the promise, but... To someone like that, who more than anything else wants "to love Battler, and if possible, be loved by him" shouldn't this be secondary? Why was the promise even more important than that?

I know that she said in EP7 that the problem wasn't that he broke the promise, but rather, that he didn't even remember, and therefore she couldn't blame him for it and felt ashamed to even speak of it to him... But even with that, it doesn't make sense.

The only plausible explanation I can come up with is that, for fear of additional pain, she didn't dare to even entertain hopes that he might be able to remember his feelings from 6 years ago.

So the reasoning I'm arriving at here paints Yasu as a girl whose main goal is to put her feelings for him to rest (put the witch to sleep for all time), and if possible, to make Battler understand the pain he caused her.

However, underneath all of that, it seems obvious that she couldn't quite throw away her hopes, and so she tried to reach Battler through a story that involved the witch constantly trying to invite Battler to her "Golden Land" which is simply a metaphor for the dreams she wanted so desperately to share with him.

....Also, I'm now starting to think that Ikuko might actually be Yasu, and I'll tell you why.

"I'll kidnap you. You're my Golden Witch." Words like these were spoken by both Kinzo and Battler, to their beloveds.

However, in 1986, it's almost like Ikuko is speaking these words to the Battler she found on the streets. What she's doing IS kidnapping him, no matter how you look at it. And I simply can't figure out why Ryukishi would have a minor, unrelated character make this parallel when it comes to Battler of all people.

Additionally, the Magic ending where Yasu drowns contains something that few seem to pay much attention to: that, even after they let go of each other, Battler desperately swam downwards again and reached her.

I think of this as a metaphor for something in particular on Rokkenjima prime.

The future of the witch, who symbolized Yasu's love for him, was the one that the promise symbolized. Remember the lyrics from the Promise song:
Quote:
But, when that promise couldn't be fulfilled
The heart I was protecting in all my frailty
Made me softly push your back, so you could continue alone
So that tomorrow's days would shine and have laughter
So, she was hoping to put those feelings to rest, and the last thing she planned to do for him was simply to help him escape the island in safety. However, he would have none of this, and refused to allow her closure.

....And if you think about it that way, there's yet another parallel: Ikuko waiting for him to regain his memories is just like Yasu waiting for him to return to Rokkenjima. She doesn't know when it's going to happen, or if it ever will, and we all know that this "Endless" is what Yasu is really afraid of. Even if it was 30 years after the events of 1986, if she knew it was going to happen then, I'm sure it wouldn't have been as hard. Unfortunately, the return of his memories results in him ending up "having a fit" and nearly dying, and even then he doesn't feel like they're his memories. At least, not until the very very end (depending on how you interpret that ending).

...It's things like that that make her really pitiable.

Oh, right. About that ending. If the "Golden Land" really is a metaphor for the dreams Yasu wanted to share with Battler, then... When that line about "Tonight, the Golden Land revives here" contains special meaning, and ends up carrying heavy implications that Ikuko is Yasu.

And there's one more thing. Ange is the "Witch of Resurrection." She "revived" Sakutaro by bringing a copy of him to Maria. This seems much the same as that situation to me: She "revived" Battler by bringing him a copy of a very important part of his past, and having him stand there as though he's in Battler's shoes.

I know that many think that the ending just doesn't really bring closure to the whole Umineko experience... But when I think about it this way, I think it seems to bring closure to everything very nicely.

Mind you, I think Featherine and Beatrice are very different regardless. Beatrice is that Golden Witch from 1986 that never found a place to die, and Featherine is the witch that was created when Ikuko and Toya wrote a whole bunch of mystery novels together.

And at the end, Featherine offers a single golden rose in remembrance of that Golden Witch. This "golden rose" seems to actually be EP8. ...Think about it this way. Doesn't it seem that BATTLER's desire to reach out to Ange and help her come to terms with the past is a little too similar to Toya's desire to meet Ange after all those years had gone by, and make up for his perceived sin of not meeting with her in 1998 when he already remembered who she was? The entirety of EP8 seems to be a huge metaphor for the ??? scene and how Ange grew up before that scene took place.

But, I'll admit it: I kind of just don't actually want Yasu to have died in 1986. Since Kinzo and Beatrice I didn't work out, I was thinking that Battler and Beatrice III should have. But I know that this certainly might not be the case. At any rate, this is just my interpretation of Umineko.
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Old 2012-01-09, 01:33   Link #26929
WitchOfDoubt
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Incidentally, I think that the demons were drawn by Beatrice in Maria's diary, and that Ange read Maria's diary heavily, is a strong argument for the theory that every meta-scene in the series is filtered through Ange's eyes or imagination. Every last one. Even all of the Tea Parties. I'm not sure how many people disagree with this, but I think that the end of EP 8 raises "amnesiac battler is imagining this" as an alternative interpretation.

The Meta characters are all exactly how Ange imagines them to be. ESPECIALLY Battler. They represent Ange's interpretations as she tries to cast the people on the island into different roles in the crime, not the thoughts of an amnesiac Battler, nor Beatrice, nor those of Ikuko.

While the Meta characters do reflect Beatrice's ideas, that is because Ange has access to them via the message bottles and the diary, assuming neither were forgeries. And when Ange reads a forgery by Ikuko, this also affects how she imagines her family.


I'm pretty biased here, because I held this hypothesis from EP 5 onwards to replace my bizarre "Battler stayed home" hypothesis, which was based on a total misunderstanding of how the unreliable narration worked. And as confirming evidence for "Ange is the one and only top-level viewer, right below the player" came up, I probably gave it more weight than evidence against the idea.

But I still think that all Meta stuff can be explained parsimoniously via Ange. Now that I've seen EP 8, I'm going to find it really hard to let go of this one barring powerful contradictory evidence.
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Old 2012-01-09, 05:39   Link #26930
battle22
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Guys i forgot how Epitaph was solved... can someone write the asnwer, if it isnt too much trouble?
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Old 2012-01-09, 05:49   Link #26931
RedKey
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Guys i forgot how Epitaph was solved... can someone write the asnwer, if it isnt too much trouble?
Spoiler for Epitaph solution:
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Old 2012-01-09, 06:42   Link #26932
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thank you very much
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Old 2012-01-09, 11:13   Link #26933
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Apparently Beatrice is skilled at drawing and Maria isn't.
Well... let's not go overboard here.

Except maybe PS3 Beatrice, she's not half bad.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-01-09, 12:19   Link #26934
alarmadadna hadi
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I would say that the memory device is more a hint towards Tôya's loss of Battler's memory and how it reduced him to a bumbling mess.
That would make the only remnant of her past, the badges, a representation of tohya's knack at mysteries, I had not considered that before, so thanks.


Quote:
More importantly I've sorta realized that while in the question arcs, we are shown a fantasy that we cannot accept and made to deny, in chiru it's basically the exact opposite (mystery takes on the role of fantasy). This leads me to believe that actually neither are the story that Ryuukishi wants us to accept. I'm assuming he wanted us to get a deeper meta-meaning to both stories, or to our relations with both. I wonder if this is the "third story" mentioned in OC.
I haven't read beyond the intro of OC summaries yet, but I think umi's "truth" requires something like a "transcendence" of sorts, Yasu presents herself as the culprit, but the "third story" is seeing beyond that, to other hidden possible states of being, the motivation to go beyond the apparent is likened to love (Through the anecdote of not wanting to doubt loved ones (battler in 2), being ready to doubt hated ones (ange/eva) and generally weaving truth out of convenient factual selection, etc). One such possible state is an R-Prime story where yasu is not the culprit (or anyone, whatever)

To that end, you could say Umi's "truth" or solution is a key, basically understanding how its reality works (shkanon being only a manifestation of the greater idea). It is actually the magical terminology that holds the keys to understand yasu's perception of reality, in an effort I think to make its solution personal. Even so, I enjoy thinking of its truth using different, out-of-story terminology.

I wonder if you can find a "fourth story", "fifth story", ad infinitum, or maybe such levels are beyond even featherinee
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Old 2012-01-09, 17:45   Link #26935
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post
Incidentally, I think that the demons were drawn by Beatrice in Maria's diary, and that Ange read Maria's diary heavily, is a strong argument for the theory that every meta-scene in the series is filtered through Ange's eyes or imagination. Every last one. Even all of the Tea Parties. I'm not sure how many people disagree with this, but I think that the end of EP 8 raises "amnesiac battler is imagining this" as an alternative interpretation.

The Meta characters are all exactly how Ange imagines them to be. ESPECIALLY Battler. They represent Ange's interpretations as she tries to cast the people on the island into different roles in the crime, not the thoughts of an amnesiac Battler, nor Beatrice, nor those of Ikuko.

While the Meta characters do reflect Beatrice's ideas, that is because Ange has access to them via the message bottles and the diary, assuming neither were forgeries. And when Ange reads a forgery by Ikuko, this also affects how she imagines her family.


I'm pretty biased here, because I held this hypothesis from EP 5 onwards to replace my bizarre "Battler stayed home" hypothesis, which was based on a total misunderstanding of how the unreliable narration worked. And as confirming evidence for "Ange is the one and only top-level viewer, right below the player" came up, I probably gave it more weight than evidence against the idea.

But I still think that all Meta stuff can be explained parsimoniously via Ange. Now that I've seen EP 8, I'm going to find it really hard to let go of this one barring powerful contradictory evidence.

I really like this idea, having been considering the amnesiac Battler angle which hasn't really sat well for me. I'm not sure I agree 100% yet having not considered all the implications yet but it holds some interesting possibilities and certainly explains the heavy amount of Mary Sue-ing.
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Old 2012-01-10, 00:02   Link #26936
kanketsu
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I wonder if sometimes we are looking too hard

It's like "finding the truth" in this site: http://optillusions.tumblr.com/



With that said, I'm still trying to figure out "what really happened in Umineko" (instead of what really happened in Rokkenjima/ R-Prime). Currently replaying episode 1 - left thumb on PS3 controller button & a finger on laptop's keyboard ...
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Old 2012-01-10, 01:02   Link #26937
Jan-Poo
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Wait... almost all of those popular optical illusions are done wrong, is it on purpose? For what?
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Old 2012-01-10, 01:35   Link #26938
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Wait... almost all of those popular optical illusions are done wrong, is it on purpose? For what?
This will explain everything.
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Old 2012-01-10, 01:41   Link #26939
Oblivion
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
This will explain everything.
To quote from one of the comments there,

Quote:
I actually came for the song.
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Old 2012-01-11, 00:24   Link #26940
WitchOfDoubt
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Actually, I wonder if it's still possible to rescue the "Battler stayed home" theory. If we only consider the first four games, it holds up pretty well if you're willing to stretch the Red Truth in ways that, well, aren't any worse than the canon.

And if you consider Our Confession:

Spoiler for Our Confession:


The Battler Never Came theory:

Spoiler for Far-fetched, but moreso than canon?:
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