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Old 2009-10-26, 20:21   Link #2681
Marion
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
No suspicion on "He was still living..." Hideyoshi? Nobody?
Sounds like a red herring to me.

Plus it could just mean that when he was staked he was still alive.
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Old 2009-10-26, 21:14   Link #2682
Renall
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I think it's possible that both Hideyoshi and Kyrie were alive after the gunfight (assuming they got into one). Rudolf may or may not have died instantly. Either way, the staker staked them without realizing both were still alive. One of them later killed Nanjo. Perhaps because Nanjo did it? Or perhaps because they just thought he was in on it?

It's possible one went and killed George, and the other killed Nanjo, then both succumbed to their wounds. Kyrie could have independently killed George and Nanjo though, I guess.
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Old 2009-10-26, 22:08   Link #2683
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think it's possible that both Hideyoshi and Kyrie were alive after the gunfight (assuming they got into one). Rudolf may or may not have died instantly. Either way, the staker staked them without realizing both were still alive. One of them later killed Nanjo. Perhaps because Nanjo did it? Or perhaps because they just thought he was in on it?

It's possible one went and killed George, and the other killed Nanjo, then both succumbed to their wounds. Kyrie could have independently killed George and Nanjo though, I guess.
If you think about it, would have to be Kyrie. Hideyoshi was stabbed/shot/whatever in the middle of his chest, his heart, which would kill him instantly. Kyrie... was stabbed/shot/whatever in the stomach, which won't kill you instantly. The TIPS even make a note of this.

As for motive... my theory is that Kyrie and Nanjo have some connection we don't know about... hell, we know nothing about either of them.

For example... Nanjo is a doctor. Kyrie had a miscarrage/stillbirth. What if he's responsible? Could be anything like that.


By the way, why is everyone so convinced the stakes aren't the murder weapons? They're sharp and heavy enough, even if they are paperweights... is there something I don't know?
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Old 2009-10-26, 22:38   Link #2684
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
By the way, why is everyone so convinced the stakes aren't the murder weapons? They're sharp and heavy enough, even if they are paperweights... is there something I don't know?
That works for some gougings, like the head, but for gougings of the belly or knee or ankle, there's no way the stakes could be what killed someone. If the stakes aren't being used as murder weapons for some deaths, it's entirely possible they're not the primary weaponry.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:00   Link #2685
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[QUOTE=Renall;2731152]I think it's possible that both Hideyoshi and Kyrie were alive after the gunfight (assuming they got into one). Rudolf may or may not have died instantly. Either way, the staker staked them without realizing both were still alive. One of them later killed Nanjo. Perhaps because Nanjo did it? Or perhaps because they just thought he was in on it?[QUOTE]

Who do you think the staker(s) were? It was implied that Eva killed Rosa (maybe unintentionally), then killed Maria to eliminate the witness. Hideyoshi hid this fact by saying Eva had not been out. But this was disproved by Kyrie and probably they went into argument and gunfire (consider they were all holding gun).

Above is what most will agree. But what is unclear is then who stabbed them. My opinion is of course Kyrie, as the real Beatrice, tried to confront Hideyoshi and at the same time to kill both Rudolf and Hideyoshi. Rudolf was shot into the head. I believe Hideyoshi did not go down after being hit, as indicated in the Fantasy scene, but fire back on Kyrie on the stomach and died soon afterwards.

Nanjo and other people came after some time. As an accomplice of Kyrie, Nanjo claimed that they were all dead.

Some kind of stake-shooting weapons were involved to penetrate the skull from EP1 to EP3 (or you need someone really strong to do so (Krauss, George, Eva?)). What do you think?

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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
So you're refering to a fake body?

If we say that there is a corpse fabrication lab located somewhere on the island we can come up with all sorts of crazy shit.

In my personal opinion though, fake bodies violate rule four of knox. You'd need a long scientific explanation to explain how a convincing looking fake body was created.
A few not-so-scientific reasons that a convincingly bodylike thing can be created:

1.The scene that someone's faces were scraped was so horrible that no sane people want to check their face clearly. Especially when they were your relatives.

2. Most bodylike things were real bodies, perhaps only one or two of the face-crushed "corpses" were not bodies. I believe all the half-head things were real bodies.

3. (This is related to my own theory, anyway) The fact that Rudolf had said he would be killed the night before reinforced the impression of Battler that their parents were dead. (I speculated that either Rudof or Kyrie or both had not died anyway)

4. Find a mannequin with a similar size and pose you want and then crushed its face. Put on some paint (best paint would always be real blood) and use your artistic imagination. Remember to dress it up.(Easier and lighter to bring than a real human body. Also reconstructable as they are composed of parts. Not as smelly as flesh as well. So convenient!!) It does not entail some too complicated scientific explanations, does it?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-26 at 23:29.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:16   Link #2686
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Who do you think the staker(s) were? It was implied that Eva killed Rosa (maybe unintentionally), then killed Maria to eliminate the witness.
...Hmm. Ange in Ep4 thinks Eva isn't an (intentional) murderer, and I agree.

Although I can see her killing Rosa by accident (given how she nearly shot Jessica and actually shot Battler) I cannot see her strangling Maria. That's not like Eva at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Kyrie, as the real Beatrice
...I'd think the tone of Battler and Beato's relationship in Ep5 pretty much precludes it being Kyrie, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
No suspicion on "He was still living..." Hideyoshi? Nobody?
That always struck me as a translation error. It doesn't make much sense... was still living?
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:16   Link #2687
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Quote:
By the way, why is everyone so convinced the stakes aren't the murder weapons? They're sharp and heavy enough, even if they are paperweights... is there something I don't know?
Because it was stated several times that they aren't very proficient as weapons. They aren't sharp at all, in fact they have no blade. At best they can be pointy, but nothing suggests they have this quality either.

It was stated that the handle was too short and that wouldn't allow the user to thrust them with enough strength.

Quote:
Who do you think the staker(s) were?
Imho, the same person that does the killings. I see little reasons to think they are different persons.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:25   Link #2688
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Because it was stated several times that they aren't very proficient as weapons. They aren't sharp at all, in fact they have no blade. At best they can be pointy, but nothing suggests they have this quality either.
...I'm pretty sure Battler holds one at one point and notes that it's sharp...

I mean, if you look at the stakes in the anime, they can clearly be USED to stab things even if they're unwieldly.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:46   Link #2689
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Imho, the same person that does the killings. I see little reasons to think they are different persons.
Consider that in the EP1, Kinzo's BBQed body had a stake stabbed into the skull. The answer to who held the stakes becomes not so clear. (No one killed Kinzo, I guess? It indicated the stakeholder had to be someone knowing the dealth of Kinzo and where the body lied.)It was probably the case that the post of stakeholder had been changing within the 2 days, but the same person must have held them at the beginning of the each episode (if all episodes have the same background).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Hmm. Ange in Ep4 thinks Eva isn't an (intentional) murderer, and I agree.

Although I can see her killing Rosa by accident (given how she nearly shot Jessica and actually shot Battler) I cannot see her strangling Maria. That's not like Eva at all.


...I'd think the tone of Battler and Beato's relationship in Ep5 pretty much precludes it being Kyrie, but...

Eva killed Maria out of fright? Because Maria probably witnessed the unintentional murder of Rosa by Eva... The conclusion could still be drawn that Eva did not want to kill either of them from the beginning.

You mean the relationship between Battler and Beatrice staged in EP5? What I say as real Beatrice is not the Beatrice in metaphysical world. Actually, I think I need to clarify how many Beatrices I think there are:

1. Cliff-falling Beatrice (or innocent Beatrice if you like): The Beatrice who fell down the cliff some 30 years ago before the incident.

2. Real Beatrice (Beatrice in the real world): the one who has adopted Maria as apprentice, probably having close relationship with her. Also the one who sent the deposit card and code to Nanjo's and Kumasawa's family. As well as the person Battler met in EP4.

3. Murderer Beatrice (Beatrice in magical sense): the Beatrice depicted as the culprit behind all the death, created from the letters-in-the-bottle (Ange's comment on the relationship between Beatrice and letters-in-the-bottle). This Beatrice is callous, sadistic, and murdered other people to resurrect herself. (Personification of different murderer throughout the episodes?)

4. Metaphysical Beatrice: the one you, I, the readers and Battler love (and sometimes hate) so much. An aggregate of the above all Beatrices. Living only in the conceptual world with Meta Battler. Even though this Beatrice is sum of the three Beatrices, this Beatrice is distinctive because she shares experience with Meta-Battler and all other Beatrices could not.

(5. Doomsday Beatrice. This one I am still not certain whether "she" is a distinctive one. I am referring to the end of EP4 when Beatrice asked "who am I?". Probably inanimate object, it can be even ideas or feeling. Still a facet of Metaphysical Beatrice if this Beatrice is distinctive)

(6. Kinzo's secret lover Beatrice. If you recall what Genji explained about the zeal of Kinzo in black magic and the source of gold piles in EP1. He said that it was all because Kinzo previously had generous lady sponsor who he fell in love with, and then he dedicated in black magic after his secret lover died. All were based in Genji's saying, so this Beatrice may or may not exist at all. If what Genji said was true, what relationship did this Beatrice have with the cliff-falling Beatrice then?)

What I meant was Kyrie was the 2nd Beatrice, but not the 4th or 5th Beatrice. Even though you may not buy my theory of Kyrie as real Beatrice. Ultimately, when Battler replaces all mystical elements with only human involvement. This will leave the Metaphysical Beatrice with less substance. (To use the cat-box metaphor: the state of being dead or alive both exists before the box is opened. Some possibilities are eliminated when one gets close to the reality) The final fate of metaphysical Beatrice depends on the author. Will she live on or perish? One can speculate how the author would treat these couples in the end.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-27 at 05:33.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:33   Link #2690
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Starting episode three now, and already I'm starting to notice patterns. Today while taking an exam, I realized that several elements from the first two games were missing from the third game.

Genji was the one responsible for writing the witches letters in games one through three. In game three he dies during the first twilight, and that is the reason we don't get letters from the witch after the first twilight.

Which is a shame, since I really enjoyed those discord letter scenes.
I'm not so sure about that. Based on the maze of red text in Episode 5, we can say with some confidence that the letter in that game was delivered by Nanjo or Kumasawa.

Spoiler for Episode 5 happy theory seizure time:

I've got some thoughts about the outside possibility that one or more of the cousins could have done it, but I want to ponder them some more before I post them.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:50   Link #2691
Ssol
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
For the sake of argument, let's say that was around 11:30.
Immediately after the knock was heard the clock struck midnight. Therefore, unless that scene was false, the knock occured at 11:59pm just prior to midnight.
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Old 2009-10-27, 00:58   Link #2692
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
*beatrice*
Don't forget Kinzo's Beatrice, who apparently died sometime before 1952, was probably the mother of Cliff-Falling Beatrice, and also probably looked a hell of a lot like Virgilia.

...I'm inclined to believe that Real Beatrice is most probably Shannon, for various reasons. Mainly because I can only see a younger girl playing witches with Maria, and Jessica is too much of a tomboy to do so...
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Old 2009-10-27, 01:04   Link #2693
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Immediately after the knock was heard the clock struck midnight. Therefore, unless that scene was false, the knock occured at 11:59pm just prior to midnight.
After the letter was delivered, Genji and Krauss returned to the dining room and discovered that Battler had received the ring. Not a single person left the dining room until 1:00. At 1:00, Eva and Rosa left, and Eva went directly to the waiting room and sealed the door, supposedly with Genji inside. However, no one else left the dining room until Eva returned. Therefore, it is flatly impossible for Genji to have been in the dining room at the time given. The scene we were shown is false.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-10-27 at 01:21. Reason: Whoops, wrong sealed room
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Old 2009-10-27, 01:27   Link #2694
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
After the letter was delivered, Genji and Krauss returned to the dining room and discovered that Battler had received the ring. Not a single person left the dining room until 1:00. At 1:00, Eva and Rosa left, and Eva went directly to the servants' room and sealed the door, supposedly with Genji inside. However, no one else left the dining room until Eva returned. Therefore, it is flatly impossible for Genji to have been in the dining room at the time given. The scene we were shown is false.
Not a single person left the dining room until 1:00.

That red text refers to all the people in the dining room after Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji left. If there was no specific time reference binding the red text then that would mean that from the very first time he entered the dining room at any point during the day he would be forced to stay there until 1am the next day. It is impossible to interpret the red text this way because Erika, the detective, definitely entered the dining room during the day and left it prior to 1am.
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Old 2009-10-27, 01:45   Link #2695
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Not a single person left the dining room until 1:00.

That red text refers to all the people in the dining room after Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji left. If there was no specific time reference binding the red text then that would mean that from the very first time he entered the dining room at any point during the day he would be forced to stay there until 1am the next day. It is impossible to interpret the red text this way because Erika, the detective, definitely entered the dining room during the day and left it prior to 1am.
Whatever the time reference binding the red text, it is applicable to Genji and Krauss, who supposedly entered the dining room after midnight. We know this to be true because during the trial, Bernkastel used it as a basis for claiming that Krauss did not leave the mansion before 1:00. Context suggests the time reference is most likely midnight.
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Old 2009-10-27, 02:39   Link #2696
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Whatever the time reference binding the red text, it is applicable to Genji and Krauss, who supposedly entered the dining room after midnight. We know this to be true because during the trial, Bernkastel used it as a basis for claiming that Krauss did not leave the mansion before 1:00. Context suggests the time reference is most likely midnight.
Spoiler for Response with screenshot:
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Old 2009-10-27, 05:22   Link #2697
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Don't forget Kinzo's Beatrice, who apparently died sometime before 1952, was probably the mother of Cliff-Falling Beatrice, and also probably looked a hell of a lot like Virgilia.

...I'm inclined to believe that Real Beatrice is most probably Shannon, for various reasons. Mainly because I can only see a younger girl playing witches with Maria, and Jessica is too much of a tomboy to do so...
Yeah, I have probably missed her as she doesn't even have a portrait. You are saying that Virgilia gave birth to cliff-falling Beatrice?? Does it suggest Kumasawa and Kinzo have some relationship beyond master-servant one? (Kinzo, you naughty old man, not only with Natsuhi but now with Kumasawa as well!!)

We only know that the cliff-falling Beatrice died in 1967, according to red text. And the captain started importing goods from 1948. Which episode does the sentence "Kinzo's secret lover Beatrice died before 1952" come from? (From Genji in episode1?) I would agree that this Beatrice may be the mother of cliff-falling Beatrice (I believe cloning technology is not that advanced in 1948. Even if it is true, it needs some too complicated scientific explanations? But when you think back you can accept the mysterious parasite disease, why not secret development in cloning technology during WWII...), but claiming Virgilia giving birth to Beatrice is too much to me.


BTW, if Shannon was the real Beatrice, she probably was very wealthy to give away at least 300 million yens. She does not seem to me adept at dealing with money things... Jessica...must be even poorer.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-27 at 05:39.
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Old 2009-10-27, 05:40   Link #2698
Workworkwork
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Why does everyone believe that Human!Beatrice doesn't exist? Battler said that he recognized her face, and because nothing was actually mentioned obstructing his vision, saying "Oh it was heavy raining out" cannot be used.

You people are destroyers of Jessica/Kanon, George/Shannon, and Battler/Beatrice.


...However, I can't say there isn't anything that hints at Shannon being Beatrice. I discount them as red herrings, but for now...

Quote:
BTW, if Shannon was the real Beatrice, she probably was very wealthy to give away at least 300 million yens. She does not seem to me adept at dealing with money things... Jessica...must be even poorer.
George mentioned she was saving up a lot and was probably "Very wealthy" since she's been working there for 10 years.

Gaap fits Jessica's role in teasing Beatrice/Shannon.
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Old 2009-10-27, 06:14   Link #2699
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Why does everyone believe that Human!Beatrice doesn't exist? Battler said that he recognized her face, and because nothing was actually mentioned obstructing his vision, saying "Oh it was heavy raining out" cannot be used.

You people are destroyers of Jessica/Kanon, George/Shannon, and Battler/Beatrice..
I don't get what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
...However, I can't say there isn't anything that hints at Shannon being Beatrice. I discount them as red herrings, but for now...

George mentioned she was saving up a lot and was probably "Very wealthy" since she's been working there for 10 years.
Are you saying the Beatrice Battler met in ep4 was Shannon? If it was the case, it further puzzled me about what sort of sin of Battler she was referring to. If not, who was that Beatrice then?

(Shannon must be very wealthy to give away this amount of money, what is perhaps more astonishing is how much wage the Ushiromiya family has been paying these servants.

To the extreme, assuming Shannon has not spent any of these money throughout the 10 years' servant life and 300 millions yens were ALL she owns in the 1986:

Then her average annual salary was 30 millions yens, how much was it in 1986?

The exchange rate of yen to US in 1986 was around 160, so in US dollars it was $187500. But one wants to know how much money it is worth NOW, we have to take into account of the price level change of US.

Price level in 2008: 110.2 Price level in 1986: 56.1 (2005 as base year)

So in today's dollar term, Shannon received an average annual salary of $367647!!(this amount was probably not in the top-CEO tier, but higher than an average CEO) Now when you also take into account every servant in the family received more or less similar salary... Krauss should just cut the wage if he needed money that badly...

(Actual data is used here. You can search it by yourself.)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-10-27 at 06:50.
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Old 2009-10-27, 06:37   Link #2700
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Okay, now we need Ronove = George and Virgillia = Maria. I wonder if it can get crackier. XD
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