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Old 2012-01-14, 22:46   Link #27041
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Pocuma View Post
I'm not sure I undestand... Do you mean that if Bern missread/missunderstand something that Lambda "wrote" then Erika will be given the information the way that Bern "read it" and not the way Lambda "wrote it"? Kind of like Bern re-wrote the scene the way she understood it and then Erika only read this re-written version?
Yes. Although "not the way Lambda wrote it" might be a bit misleading because I think that Lamdba intentionally "wrote" in a way that could be interpreted the way Bern interpreted it. Basically, as a writer Lambda used a dirty trick to mislead Bern. Hence "a game without love".

Incidentally, it wouldn't really be fair to us either, but I think that'd be the point.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-01-15 at 14:42.
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Old 2012-01-15, 12:14   Link #27042
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The problem with the idea that Kanon is a separate person in EP5 only is that Lambda said in red that Erika was the only piece that had been added, and that the number of people on the island had only been increased by one.

My personal theory is that EP5 is a very different kakera in which Kanon remained a simple delusion/"imaginary friend" of Yasu/Shannon and that they are not seen as two separate people by any of the residents of the island (they are never acknowledged as such that I can recall). However, Battler is Yasu's accomplice in this kakera (probably under the impression that it's a fake murder mystery as a little prank on Natsuhi, not seriously trying to frame her for murder) and thus knows the truth of Yasu's soul; therefore, because he has love for Yasu, he sees the truth that there are in fact two people standing there, not just one.

We already know that Battler is an unreliable narrator in EP5, so there's no problem with him being an accomplice. Actually it's the only real explanation I can see for the part where he tells Erika he saw Kinzo: nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight, so he was deliberately lying. Why? Because he wanted to leave room for the existence of Kinzo as part of Yasu's plan. That's how I see it, anyway.
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Old 2012-01-15, 12:38   Link #27043
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
The problem with the idea that Kanon is a separate person in EP5 only is that Lambda said in red that Erika was the only piece that had been added, and that the number of people on the island had only been increased by one.
That's not a problem with my theory, though. Kanon is counted as a person whether he has a body or not, so the only thing that changes is the number of bodies, not the number of people.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
My personal theory is that EP5 is a very different kakera in which Kanon remained a simple delusion/"imaginary friend" of Yasu/Shannon and that they are not seen as two separate people by any of the residents of the island (they are never acknowledged as such that I can recall). However, Battler is Yasu's accomplice in this kakera (probably under the impression that it's a fake murder mystery as a little prank on Natsuhi, not seriously trying to frame her for murder) and thus knows the truth of Yasu's soul; therefore, because he has love for Yasu, he sees the truth that there are in fact two people standing there, not just one.
The problem with this isn't Battler, who's directly stated to be an accomplice of sorts, so whatever, it's Erika. Erika is aware of Kanon's presence on the island, and it's her perception (or lack thereof) of him that we're trying to account for.
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Old 2012-01-15, 14:26   Link #27044
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...of course, at this point we've discussed it so many times, that sometimes I'll just concede to "Kanon was behind Godha"'s sentiment because someone, was it Aura, suggested that Kanon was behind Erika the whole time giving her bunny ears as everyone else in the parlor tried to stifle their laughter. And that's just freakin' hilarious.
Yea, that was totes me. It's canon imo.

Erika was the only one who didn't see it because of Detective's Authority and generally because she's an un-fun asshole.

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That's not a problem with my theory, though. Kanon is counted as a person whether he has a body or not, so the only thing that changes is the number of bodies, not the number of people.
But then we have the problem of why Imaginary-Kinzo doesn't count as a person, or why Beatrice doesn't count as a person. And if Maria still had Sakutarou I'm sure he'd of been counted as a person because LolMariage Sorciere right?
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Old 2012-01-15, 14:40   Link #27045
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Yea, that was totes me. It's canon imo.
Hey now, don't take all the credit. The bunny ears were my idea.
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Old 2012-01-15, 16:37   Link #27046
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Kanon was behind Erika the whole time giving her bunny ears as everyone else in the parlor tried to stifle their laughter.
Thats got to be the best solution EVER!

Something else I thought of... there seems to be two common questions regarding ep5 and ShKanon:

1. "Why did Erika not notice Shannon and Kanon are the same person?"
This one got me thinking that it feels like it's the wrong question to ask. Why would she noticed that Shanon and Kanon are the same person? Last time I checked "I haven't seen those two in the same room at the same time" does not equal "these two people has to be the same person" (even if it happens to be true in this case ). Battler didn't notice they where even after 4 games. Personally I remember that the first time(s) I read about the ShKanon theory I did not buy it at all because I thought it sounded ridiculous (and out of context it still does). Its not really until you know about "the heart" that it makes sense....... well.... somewhat more sense at least... Having that in mindů is it really that odd that Erika did not figure ShKanon out in ep6?

2. "Why did Erika not notice Shanon and Kanon are (supposedly) never in the same room at the same time?"
Lets ask the opposit: Why would she? Unless you know/believe they are the same person you would most likely not pay that much attention whatever they appear at the same time/place or not (and especially not if you're looking for evidence that someone else is the culprit). The real question here is actually "How come Erika did not notice one person was missing?" After the first twilight she should have noticed that one person (who was supposed to be present) was missing while the group moved around.
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Old 2012-01-15, 17:57   Link #27047
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I got it probably...

The narrator of the EP5-gameboard was Battler. We only heard his thoughts and not Erika's.

So the scene we saw in the parlor was from Battler's perspective. What Erika saw didn't matter.

That is probably one of the things "Beato could do, but didn't do". She was so nice, to let the gameboard be run through the eyes of Battler, wherever he was present in EP1-4. But in EP5 Bernkastel as the player didn't have that much luck with the gamemaster.

So even the scenes, where Erika was present were not shown through Erika's eyes, but through Battler's. And Piece-Erika cannot investigate anything, that she doesn't find fishy at that moment...

Something like the scene in EP2 where Battler saw a living Kinzo and the golden Butterflies in Kinzo's study. Because he didn't have the "magic doesn't exist"-stance anymore, he was blinded by the illusions. Meta-Battler couldn't hear the answers from Beato about the twilights, which she told Piece-Battler. This was hinted in EP5 too, when Meta-Battler didn't get to know the details about the Epitaph, while his piece version did.

So as long as Erika doesn't think that something is fishy in EP5, the Meta-Player (Bern) will never see it either.


I hope this wasn't too confusing.
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Old 2012-01-15, 18:05   Link #27048
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Hey now, don't take all the credit. The bunny ears were my idea.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I mentioned the bunny ears on my own too...maybe I did that at Golden Gameboard and forgot about it. Fuck if I know.

Either way the idea is canon.
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Old 2012-01-15, 23:22   Link #27049
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Are you sure?
Yeah. It's here:

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
~~~
Incidentally for those that are interested, you can also find some older discussion relevant to the EP5 parlor scene if you follow that link.
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Old 2012-01-16, 00:20   Link #27050
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But then we have the problem of why Imaginary-Kinzo doesn't count as a person, or why Beatrice doesn't count as a person. And if Maria still had Sakutarou I'm sure he'd of been counted as a person because LolMariage Sorciere right?
This is a problem that exists prior to EP5 anyway, so it's not a problem created by my theory. Rather than go into detail by character, I'll generalize and say that it's Beato's narrative conceit that Kanon-persona counts as a living person, while characters with a seemingly equal level of existence, somehow do not.

Spoiler for space:


I'm assuming you're jumping into the discussion of this specific topic for the first time? The problem of Kanon and Erika's perspective can be stated more simply.
"Erika explicitly gathered every human that wasn't a presented murder victim, or Kinzo, into the parlor. Kanon is there. Shannon is there. What the fucklesticks?"

Also, the Logic Error is the only riddle that actually requires a Shkanon solution - Battler could've solved EP1-4 with "Shannon and Kanon are accomplices", pretty much tit for tat.

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So even the scenes, where Erika was present were not shown through Erika's eyes, but through Battler's. And Piece-Erika cannot investigate anything, that she doesn't find fishy at that moment...
It's not even a matter of what she does or doesn't choose to investigate, though - it's a matter of what's right in front of Piece-Erika's eyes. Or possibly behind them making bunny ears.

Don't forget that Battler wasn't the narrator for all of EP1-4, not by a long shot, but what he himself witnessed was still important, and the case still solvable.

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Either way the idea is canon.
Someone REALLY should write a fanfic that involves a super-trolling Kanon playing the most hardcore game of hide-go-seek ever.
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Old 2012-01-16, 02:41   Link #27051
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The problem with this isn't Battler, who's directly stated to be an accomplice of sorts, so whatever, it's Erika. Erika is aware of Kanon's presence on the island, and it's her perception (or lack thereof) of him that we're trying to account for.
Where does Erika show awareness of Kanon in E5? I don't recall that.
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Old 2012-01-16, 08:10   Link #27052
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Where does Erika show awareness of Kanon in E5? I don't recall that.
Quote:
`"Now, Kanon-san and Kumasawa-san.`@` Please rise."`\

`"In the morning,`@` you two went to wake Genji-san because he had slept in, right?`@` And at that time, you noticed that the door was sealed, broke the seal, and opened the door, correct?"`\
At the very least Meta-Erika is aware of him.
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Old 2012-01-16, 09:03   Link #27053
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At the very least Meta-Erika is aware of him.
And if, for whatever reason, Meta-Erika is aware of him but Piece-Erika isn't, it creates some serious problems with the very notion of detective authority meaning anything at all. It'd be rather pointless for the only reliable perspective to belong to someone whose observations cannot even be accessed.
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Old 2012-01-16, 10:26   Link #27054
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At which point is it okay to stop thinking and admit that there is a plot hole?
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Old 2012-01-16, 11:05   Link #27055
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At which point is it okay to stop thinking and admit that there is a plot hole?
If Meta-Erika has no access to Piece-Erika's POV, or limited access, then basically it's not so much a plot hole (Erika can simply think she has access to her piece when she doesn't) as an incident of authorial "cheating." It's a red herring, an act of blatant misdirection not designed to add anything of value to the work (as opposed to Beatrice's misdirections, which generally added things). If there is no correspondence between Erikas, then the entire "detective authority" thing is a sham, at least in ep5. It simply doesn't exist.

Basically, it resolves the issue with the parlor scene - it's a lie, Piece-Erika didn't see Kanon, and Meta-Erika is unable to become aware that Piece-Erika didn't see him and thus assumes she did - but in a way that isn't terribly satisfactory to anyone. It means that Ryukishi lied to the reader by convincing us detective authority meant something, and the characters lied to Erika by convincing her she was capable of investigating when in fact she was only capable of getting the information she was allowed to have from an external authority.

Much as I hate to feel sympathy for Erika, if she didn't really have unrestricted access to the actions and observations of her piece she was basically being played for a chump by Battler, Bern, and Lambda.
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Old 2012-01-16, 11:36   Link #27056
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Much as I hate to feel sympathy for Erika, if she didn't really have unrestricted access to the actions and observations of her piece she was basically being played for a chump by Battler, Bern, and Lambda.
This is especially true if you consider EP6 where her whole strategy revolved around the assumption that by manipulating her piece she could access informations without the Game Master knowledge.

If the truth is that the Game Master actually fed her those information her role in the whole EP6 would be nothing but that of a marionette dancing on Battler's palm.

Even the genius Battler theory wouldn't be that great in this scenario because you don't really need to be a genius to fool someone who has no knowledge of the fact all the intellegence she possess are manipulated by you.
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Old 2012-01-16, 11:41   Link #27057
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It's worse, I think, if she has some access, but not total access, as it fools her into somehow thinking she's getting all the information she wanted when, as you put it, she's really nothing more than a puppet.

While I expect that degree of cruelty from Bern, even to the point that I can accept it being done to her own allies, I just have trouble believing that Erika would somehow have ticked off Battler so badly that he'd be okay with simply manipulating her at will and allowing her to believe a completely unfair scenario that was engineered right down to her own actions. At least if she stumbles into his trap of her own depravity the whole thing becomes her own fault. If she wasn't even able to control that much, she's basically a witches' chew toy.
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Old 2012-01-16, 11:49   Link #27058
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
At the very least Meta-Erika is aware of him.
And, interestingly, in EP6 Piece-Erika actually refers to Kanon, although they are never actually shown to be in the same room.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And if, for whatever reason, Meta-Erika is aware of him but Piece-Erika isn't, it creates some serious problems with the very notion of detective authority meaning anything at all. It'd be rather pointless for the only reliable perspective to belong to someone whose observations cannot even be accessed.
I think her observations can be accessed, just not accessed with perfect accuracy. This does, of course, undermine the usefulness of Erika's reliable perspective, leaving the "player" with no 100% certain information. But, goddammit, isn't that just like Umineko? We're never 100% certain of anything.

I would also like to point out that we readers never had access to Piece-Erika's observations, as we never see anything from her viewpoint.
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Old 2012-01-16, 11:59   Link #27059
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Not to mention the fact that the very premise of Episode6, that is the creation of a game between Battler and Erika and all the talks about fairness, would be nothing but fluff, as you can't possibly call it a game at these conditions.

Anyway

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It's a red herring, an act of blatant misdirection not designed to add anything of value to the work
I think this is the case for what concerns the kitchen scene in Episode1. We now know that Kumasawa, Genji and "Beatrice" were all in a conspiracy and therefore all of them should know well what happened on the first twilight and why. We also know that Battler was detective and he was supposed to have a reliable perspective.

Given that, that scene makes no sense, unless you assume Beatrice really has DID and that when she's "Kanon" cannot remember what the other personalities did, but that doesn't really matches with the rest we know.
This looks like a blatant unjustified misdirection to me, as if there was a need to misdirect the readers further in that episode.

Another thing that I didn't stomach was the fact that in EP3 the hypothesis that the servants faked their death was raised and then dismissed by the adults. That's really a bad trick. To make the usual comparison with Philo Vance claiming that "there are no secret passage", it's as if the writer after making him say that he'd "surprise" the readers by making the same character admit "whops... I was wrong! There was indeed a secret passage, and that was how you could explain this case from the beginning!".

The personality death also appearing in EP3 was a very "poisonous" trick by the author admission. The way he tried so hard to make the readers give up on shkanon starting from EP3, passing through the red truth of EP4 and then the bomb in EP5 is absolutely incredible.

I can understand he was upset by the fact his "trick" was spotted almost instantly, but man...

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But, goddammit, isn't that just like Umineko? We're never 100% certain of anything.
Except, if that was even remotely true how the hell Dlanor could make a red truth out of what Erika supposedly experienced behind the GM's back without detective authority?
The explanation for that in the story was that this was possible because that situation didn't allow the smallest doubt. Your thesis is in direct contrast with that.
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Old 2012-01-16, 12:19   Link #27060
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Given that, that scene makes no sense, unless you assume Beatrice really has DID and that when she's "Kanon" cannot remember what the other personalities did, but that doesn't really matches with the rest we know.
This looks like a blatant unjustified misdirection to me, as if there was a need to misdirect the readers further in that episode.
Maybe someone already said this (I really don't wanna browse that many previous thread pages), but couldn't it be the case they knew Battler could have walked by the kitchen overhearing them, and thus put up the act?
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