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Old 2012-01-20, 03:34   Link #27181
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Even if we conceded that a Reader can change the narrated text, for the sake of argument, this in no way logically connects to Erika seeing Kanon when Kanon isn't physically present (which was the original argument and this Reader thing is just kind of a meaningless tangent).
Establishing the viability of the influence of subjectivity on what appears on the Game Board is crucial to my theory about what happened with Erika.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Of course YASU is subjective, but Yasu isn't the Reader, Clair is, and Clair and Yasu aren't the same entity.
See? The whole concept of Readers changing the text is so damn nebulous, vague, self-contradictory, and convoluted that I honestly don't really see much merit in the EP8 interchange. If anything it seems like something Ryukishi made up at the last minute, to me.
It was your words saying "Claire channels Yasu"; I was just going with them. The point is that as long as Claire is a "tool", what she does (i.e. how she "reads") will necessarily be dictated either by her creator or by her user, and whoever that is will be a subjective being.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
*inserts all the hints about Kumasawa being directly connected to Kinzo's Beatrice in some way.*
What hints? That Virgilia was the "original Beatrice"? That's not a dead end hint at all; it came full circle when we were shown that Kumasawa was the first person to teach Yasu "magic".

Not a very convincing example.
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Old 2012-01-20, 03:55   Link #27182
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Quote:
Establishing the viability of the influence of subjectivity on what appears on the Game Board is crucial to my theory about what happened with Erika.
Things can be subjective in different ways, however. Someone misconceiving someone and relating that is not equivalent to someone witnessing something that is already misconceptualized, even if it's misrepresented to mirror their own misunderstandings.

Quote:
It was your words saying "Claire channels Yasu"; I was just going with them. The point is that as long as Claire is a "tool", what she does (i.e. how she "reads") will necessarily be dictated either by her creator or by her user, and whoever that is will be a subjective being.
How is that any different from Ange reading something already distorted from the truth that was written by Featherine/Toya? This just supports that it's the Game Master/Author who presents false information in the text.

Quote:
What hints? That Virgilia was the "original Beatrice"? That's not a dead end hint at all; it came full circle when we were shown that Kumasawa was the first person to teach Yasu "magic".

Not a very convincing example.
Wow, so Ryukishi wrote one thing that very strongly insinuates something but turns out to completely end up meaning something ELSE?

Because that's exactly where I was going with that, thank you.
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Old 2012-01-20, 03:59   Link #27183
Keriaku
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The Detective & the Anti-Magic Toxin

I just wanted to add some of my thoughts in the recent discussions.

Here is what I think about the EP5 incident where both Kanon and Shannon are in the parlor. This scene leads us to infer that Erika could have gained knowledge about the fantasy status of ShKanon. So, I tried going back to check the powers detective authority gives to Erika. While the conversation about this scene has advanced in complexity, I'm thinking that the crux of the problem is centered on workings of the gameboard. This is why things like Readers have been brought up, being tangentaly related. Really what we need to do here is figure out the workings of the Gameboard.

---

As an aside, I think that Reader's are definitely something worth spending some time thinking about, especially since the concept is not explicitly expounded upon in the story, but I don't think they're crucial for this problem.

First we should probably try and gain some collective understanding of how the Gameboard works.

Perhaps if everyone shared their thoughts or view on this area, we could all figure out how this works? I know I'm interested in hearing how people view the meta-structure of Beatrice's Gameboard and rules. (It would take me some time and thinking to get that up for myslf). As possibly the most active english, intelectual disucssion about the series, I'm sure we could figure out what's happening with Erika, and probably discover a whole bunch of interesting things within the series. I've really enjoyed all of the different kinds of theories I've read so far, in all areas of the series. I think Umineko has done something timeless in how you can theorize, finds parallels, see symbolism, and explore the meta-setting with all it's information.

---

That being said, here are my thoughts. From watching the discussion, I wondered how the Detective's Authority never mentions anything about fighting Fantasy, or 'truth. It rather gives Erika a list of abilities. I'm thinking that what is happening is that both Kanon and Shannon are being presented there, as Fantasy. This is where Readers were being brought into the picture, but I think we can go into more fundamental ideas here to explain it.

What I'm thinking happens here is that Erika carries an implicit belief that both Shannon and Kanon are there. This makes sense as this seems to be the only moment that makes us think she should wonder about it. Erika has no reason to question it, no will to direct her attention to it and epecially no reason to utlilize her abilities towards it. In this sense, to her, whether or not she believes everyone is there, Kanon is there with Shannon. So Erika should have no magic toxin directed towards them. Though she would instantly destroy any 'normal' fantasy, this single instance is kept intact. And this would be because her beliefs and thoughts do not create any magic toxin to blow this Fantasy away. It's interesting because Kinzo could probably have been in the same state, though she realizes he is because of the overwhelming evidence for it.

I think this idea fits very well as something for Ryuukishi to call a 'dirty trick' in EP5. It's something that only makes sense if you really understand the workings of Umineko. To say directly what I've thought out as I write this, it would be something like this: The detective sees 'fantasy' unless their anti-magic toxins (beliefs) do not destroy it.

(Rereading note, this fits in very well with the theme of 'mystery' being similar to 'fantasy'. If mystery has it's detective rules, fantasy has it's magic rules)

Let me expand on this idea a bit. It fits in very well with the rest of the series. It seems to be something that happens jarringly and abruptly to Battler over the questions arcs, his time as the 'detective'. The series has shown multiple times that this is something possible on Beatrice's Gameboard. There is a big deal made out of the magic toxin and how Battler has 'Endless Nine', even within the meta-world, after learning how to fight. He explicitly learns how to brush away other interpretations and see only what he knows to be true.

And I can understand why Ryuukishi would put in a scene like this. Now everything's at EP5, and we get Erika. She is a new detective, a piece of the Witch of Miracles. She is a fresh face for the mystery side, showing how things could have gone without Battler at the helm. Much more competent, forceful and even has a bunch of shiny, special new abilities that people didn't even know were possible. Right near the beginning of this gameboard where the scene appears, people are too distracted by this new detective delcaring a culprit, something unheard of until this point, to be thinking too hard about things. And this is when a tiny drop of fantasy is slipped in and allowed to stand without question.

From the game and fantasy teachings of every episode prior, it can be said to be foreshadowed. Even with later meta-understandings of how things work, it seems to fit and be allowed. But this is something you'd only spot and eventually understand if you have some general knowledge of how things work already. Think about what we're dealing with here. We now understand that Kanon is a fantasy. Erika should not be seeing it because she is the detective. This fantasy appears in this scene because of either/or the Gamemaster or a Reader creates them there. All of these words show how deeply we're already into knowing about, being familar with, and understanding the workings of this game and this world. And we have to understand these concepts to an extent to even be able to identy this parlor scene as a problem. It then makes sense that we should appeal to other rules to try and figure out what's happening. It now makes complete sense to me for Ryuukishi to slip this in, to see if you really understand the workings of Umineko. And if it goes by completely unnoticed, it's left as a challenge for later.

This perspective puts even more depth on Erika's character in not being able to fully understand the gameboard. Being unable to fully understand how Fantasy works and what gives Beatrice any power. How Fantasy vs. Mystery is a game not a slaughter. This scene then becomes a key plot point rather then a shoddy plot hole.

And this was the period where Ryuukishi was saying something like 'if you're on the right track, you'll pick up some big hints and be pushed forward, or you'll just get further confused'. Perhas questioning something as shaddy as the 'Detective's Authority', that mixes meta and reality in startling ways --the same was fantasy used too-- is 'being on the right path' at that point?

And from this idea, let's go back to Battler. He has already gained an Endless Nine ability against fantasy through his past games. But perhaps we should say its 999....98, if he still allowed in Kanon at this point as well. He gained knowledge of how to fight fantasy directly, but still failed against Beatrice after 4 games. Erika comes in, not caring about fantasy in the least. A level number to fight against it wouldn't even mean anything to her. Instead, she attacks with high levels in mystery, with all sorts of critcial detective abilities. And she wins as a mystery, almost. She has no abilities against fantasy, so that's where she eventually loses with the corpes. She's also hit with Kanon, but that was not a direct strike, it's rather something that slides right past her.

When Battler looks back on this game, it now makes sense how he could possibly reach Beatrice's heart not after the 4 games, but this last game was enough. The parlor scene itself wouldn't have been enough, he was still at 999....98 anti-magic defense, as he had no belief against Kanon existing. Kinzo as fantasy had already been beaten, he probably had no reason to suspect more. But with Battler thinking about the past games, if he truly understands how and why Erika loses, it makes sense that the parlor scene could be the 'key' for him in understanding Beatrice.

This seems to fit in perfectly for everything. Like how Lambda says she's still gonna be giving hints. She slips in some fantasy at the end, while having fun knowing she can get away with it (especially if she had already dealt with all of the detective things with Erika earlier). She'd get to mess with Bern, and her lack of love. She would know by that point that Erika would never suspect it and could purposely leave it there as something for Battler to find, or not. Perfect true neutral until the end.

It's now not only unsurprising that this is key to Erika's downfall in EP6, but completely thematically and structurely appropriate for the Gameboard.

I am now personally forced to view this scene as necessary and important. My mind has been blown.

I'm sure I could say more if I kept thinking about this, but I should probably stop here. I wasn't expecting to write all this when I started this post. I had some other stuff to say about Virgilia's place in things and Readers, but I'll add my two cents later. How do you guys feel about this as a response to the parlor scene?

P.S. I don't have much time to write up thoughtful posts as I usually read the thread on my iPhone, but I've enjoyed the discussion and Ill join in when I can.
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Old 2012-01-20, 08:29   Link #27184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
stuff
This looks like the most interesting thing so far, at least in my opinion.

However, I think we need a confirmation of what exactly Detective's Authority is. You said it's just a list of abilities, and that it doesn't get in the way of your theory, but you didn't really list what those abilities were, or why they didn't get in the way.

I do, of course, have some understanding of Detective's Authority, but my memory is a little blurry, so about all I remember is something like this:
"the observations that the detective makes can now potentially be raised to the level of red truth"
And even then, it seems to require the presence of a witch like Bern to raise it to red truth. Except for some times, like with her right to investigate all crime scenes. I don't think her duct tape would actually be at the level of Red if not for Bern.

At any rate, if that about sums it up, then I think your theory should be possible.

I think of Dlanor's Red on detectives not having the right to subjectify their observations as being part of the whole Knox's Decalogue package. In other words, it's a set of rules to be enforced, and "Heaven" gives her the ability to raise it to the level of Red. Therefore, if she notices an infringement of these rules, she can slash it down with the Red Key. However, if she doesn't notice the infringement, it can probably pass.
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Old 2012-01-20, 09:41   Link #27185
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This looks like the most interesting thing so far, at least in my opinion.

However, I think we need a confirmation of what exactly Detective's Authority is. You said it's just a list of abilities, and that it doesn't get in the way of your theory, but you didn't really list what those abilities were, or why they didn't get in the way.

I do, of course, have some understanding of Detective's Authority, but my memory is a little blurry, so about all I remember is something like this:
"the observations that the detective makes can now potentially be raised to the level of red truth"
And even then, it seems to require the presence of a witch like Bern to raise it to red truth. Except for some times, like with her right to investigate all crime scenes. I don't think her duct tape would actually be at the level of Red if not for Bern.

At any rate, if that about sums it up, then I think your theory should be possible.

I think of Dlanor's Red on detectives not having the right to subjectify their observations as being part of the whole Knox's Decalogue package. In other words, it's a set of rules to be enforced, and "Heaven" gives her the ability to raise it to the level of Red. Therefore, if she notices an infringement of these rules, she can slash it down with the Red Key. However, if she doesn't notice the infringement, it can probably pass.
I recognize this. Last night I got more caught up in writing the theory rather then checking it. But from what I remember from having read through the series and what the author is doing thematically, this seems to fits. I don't believe the Detective's Authority could have any kind of clause specifically destroying all fantasy, because then it seems like it would've been an auto-win in a sense.

And this idea of ways to fight as fantasy or against and the ways to fight as mystery or against, really seem to me to fit as what Ryuukishi meant with Fantasy, Anti-Fantasy, Mystery and Anti-Mystery.

But I'll surely revise my theory when I've had a chance to check out what excactly what Detective Authroity gives. But right now, using detective abilities to me just seems like another way for the Mystery side to fight. Not Anti-Fantasy, just Mystery. And this fits because some mystery novels have detectives, some don't. Beatrice's Gameboard is simply flexible enough to allow both.
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Old 2012-01-20, 13:41   Link #27186
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While reading your theory, Keriaku, I thought you were going to say something like Battler had Endless Nine, and Erika didn't, so Shannon and Kanon were able to coexist in front of her. But you started saying Battler was allowing fantasy as well. Okay, here's some things that bug me:

If Erika could see a bodiless Kanon, why didn't Shannon and Kanon ever appear together in front of Battler when he was the detective? Or might this be one of the things Beatrice could do with her gameboard but wouldn't?

Also, Battler never had to 'allow Kanon to exist'. He appeared physically whenever he was supposed to in front of Battler, and Battler never suspected it was the same human as Shannon in disguise.

Doesn't objective viewpoint mean that what the person sees is not influenced by their own interpretations and beliefs? So what Erika's objective view can't be influenced by what she thinks of Shannon and Kanon and her anti-magic toxin levels, which are subjective. Unless the condition of Erika's viewpoint was actually described more vaguely, I don't think such interpretations are viable.


I also don't like it when people say Erika didn't pay attention because she thought Shkanon was ridiculous. For example, what's with Battler and Erika's chain-locked room battle in EP8 then? She acknowledges them as quite ridiculous yes, but at least she can use them as possible solutions.


Well I'm not saying my theory makes the most sense, but I don't think it's one people have given much thought. I posted it a few pages back, but didn't get any feedback on it, which I'd like to hear.


About the Kumasawa/original Beatrice... What's a mystery without some red herrings? I myself entertained the idea of Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice who he couldn't acknowledge because she had lost her beauty or something long ago. But red herrings need their explanations as well, and it did happen in Kumasawa's case.


Oh, about Clair, maybe she's mostly the embodiment of Beatrice's games. She is laid to rest as Will gives answers to the games. She remains as nobody was able to solve the mysteries, not until Will did that. And she was satisfied even if it wasn't exactly Battler, as a mystery's purpose is to be solved. This helps if you want to believe in a theory where Prime-Yasu isn't actually that troubled, as Clair tells the story of the murderer of the games used in writing them, not the exact story of Prime-Yasu.
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Old 2012-01-20, 14:26   Link #27187
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Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Sorry if I didn't completely specify.

Battler had a high level of Anti-Fantasy power over EP 3&4. He knew how to fight with those techniques. But still at the time of the parlor scene, he let that fantasy through. It wasn't until the end of EP5 where he realizes the trick and reaches the truth.

Erika on the other had a negligible Anti-Fantasy power. Rather she has high levels of Mystery power. This usually allows her to crush most fantasy, but I guess it leaves her susceptible to 'ordinary' fantasy, or rather, things that are unrelated to Mystery.

I was thinking about why Beatrice didn't show both Kanon and Shannon to Battler at the same time, last night after putting up my post. And you are exactly right, being something close to her heart, this seems to be a very exact and fitting example of something Beatrice 'wouldn't do'. It seems like doing so would be a very personal test for whether she has accomplished her goals, justified her existence, et cetera. Understanding Beatrice, it would probably be a very embarrassing action in front of Battler, which is evidently never needed, so she doesn't do so.

And for the objective bit, looking at it as a combination of what is being presented aligning with her own beliefs, I don't think that really holds up as a good counter argument. There is no 'real' objectivity and the closest definition to it is something along the lines of justified true beliefs. And 'true' has many different philosophic theories, one of which is that the 'fact' fits on with all other information. Which is exactly what would allow this fantasy to exist.

Against the mountains of thematic mystery vs. fantasy, and character-based evidence, I don't feel like the 'detective authority giving objective viewpoint' argument really holds up. Rather from some perspective it seems to strengthen it, especially taken with what we learn throughout the series.

One of the reason I like this theory is that it fits so perfectly. It fits within the stated rules of the series. It fits within what the characters would do. It explains lots of dialogue about why EP5 is unusual. It's a necessary piece to understanding Beatrice. It explains later events eloquently, such as why Battler understands everything after this specific arc, and Erika realizing where she went wrong in EP6. It fits with what the author was trying to get us to do in understading Beatrice. It doesn't need more complex rules, we just need to actually understand what EP1-4 was trying to tell us. It taps into the theme of mystery being equal to fantasy. There's so many reason that this theory fits.

There's also some really interesting character analysis I haven't even explored yet. For example, if Battler knew Lambda slipped in this hint, allowing him to reach the truth, maybe that sheds some light on Battler and Lambda's interactions in EP8? Just a thought, but there's lots of stuff that could be drawn from this scene using this perspective.

EDIT for some extra thoughts:

This actually is very fitting as an 'answer' to EP1 as well. That was the episode that was most Mystery. But going back now, or possible even by EP3 and 4, we realize that there was quite a bit of Fantasy in there.

With that in mind, it seems like this is one specific and extreme case of what was going on all over the place in Episode 1. Yes, it was never as drastic as this, but there is a number of reason to make this a drastic case. Not to mention it being one last 'dirty trick', and the episode invitation asking 'What could possibly fool you now...?'

To contrive a scenario, imagine Battler was staring off in the distance near the beginning ofthe first day and a figure walks by really quickly. If everyone in the room says it was Kinzo, Battler probably would have believed it and the Fantasy would have existed, even for him. It is justifed in that everyone else presents this info, he believes Kinzo could have been there, and there's no reason to object it. I don't want to push this example too hard, but you get the idea.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2012-01-20 at 14:42.
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Old 2012-01-20, 14:42   Link #27188
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There's also some really interesting character analysis I haven't even explored yet. For example, if Battler knew Lambda slipped in this hint, allowing him to reach the truth, maybe that sheds some light on Battler and Lambda's interactions in EP8? Just a thought, but there's lots of stuff that could be drawn from this scene using this perspective.
Lambda knew the truth of Beatrice's gameboard in EP5? Only in this way for her to give hints to Battler.
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Old 2012-01-20, 14:47   Link #27189
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
If Erika could see a bodiless Kanon, why didn't Shannon and Kanon ever appear together in front of Battler when he was the detective? Or might this be one of the things Beatrice could do with her gameboard but wouldn't?
She wanted Battler to see the truth. After seeing the EP5 Tea Party, it should no longer be possible to deny that she did. On the other hand, Lambda and Bern were clearly toying with Erika. They weren't trying to show her the truth. Or at least, the truth is not something that was very high on their list of priorities in EP5. This is more than evident by the fact that they worked together to frame Natsuhi even though we know that Natsuhi was not the culprit for that game.

Quote:
Doesn't objective viewpoint mean that what the person sees is not influenced by their own interpretations and beliefs? So what Erika's objective view can't be influenced by what she thinks of Shannon and Kanon and her anti-magic toxin levels, which are subjective. Unless the condition of Erika's viewpoint was actually described more vaguely, I don't think such interpretations are viable.
If you're referring to this:
Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Then, I think we need to take into account that it was spoken long after the parlor scene we're discussing. Said parlor scene was from Battler's point of view, who wasn't yet stated to have not been a Detective. And his narration said that he saw both Shannon and Kanon at the same time.

However, at that point in time, this Red wasn't used against him. Why? Because Dlanor wasn't there yet, so she didn't enforce this rule. If the rule is not enforced, then it shouldn't take effect. That's how rules work. She also can't enforce a rule if she doesn't realize that the rule is being broken. At that moment, if this theory about Erika seeing both of them even though there was only one body is true, there should have been no reason for Dlanor to suspect that it was an illusion, even if she was there.

Not only that, but the subject of this Red was Battler alone. Dlanor never used it on Erika.

Quote:
I also don't like it when people say Erika didn't pay attention because she thought Shkanon was ridiculous. For example, what's with Battler and Erika's chain-locked room battle in EP8 then? She acknowledges them as quite ridiculous yes, but at least she can use them as possible solutions.
That's not what we're saying. This theory says that "Lambda inserted a fantasy element into Piece!Erika's observations, and it went undetected, because there was no reason to doubt that it was the truth at that time." It doesn't say that Erika wasn't paying attention.

But at any rate, the battle at the end of EP6 makes it clear that Erika did not suspect anything like the "ShKanon" theory.

Quote:
Well I'm not saying my theory makes the most sense, but I don't think it's one people have given much thought. I posted it a few pages back, but didn't get any feedback on it, which I'd like to hear.
I'd say that it's possible, if only because the Red that refers to Shannon in EP5 is only speaking about something that happened before the game started. It's also possible that Shannon told someone about Natsuhi's secret. So for the duration of this one game, it's possible that Shannon didn't exist.

This is one of the less ridiculous theories. I rather like it, but I would prefer one that allows both Kanon and Shannon to exist on the game board.

Quote:
About the Kumasawa/original Beatrice... What's a mystery without some red herrings? I myself entertained the idea of Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice who he couldn't acknowledge because she had lost her beauty or something long ago. But red herrings need their explanations as well, and it did happen in Kumasawa's case.
There really is nothing that denies Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice, even after EP7.

This is because the only confirmation we have of Beatrice I's death is secondhand information from Nanjo.

Of course, there was a time when, in Kinzo's eyes, Beatrice I died. However, what kind of death that is, is something that is not necessarily clear.

There is nothing else, that I can remember, that would deny this theory.
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Old 2012-01-20, 16:34   Link #27190
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
@Bluemail
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Sorry if I didn't completely specify.

Battler had a high level of Anti-Fantasy power over EP 3&4. He knew how to fight with those techniques. But still at the time of the parlor scene, he let that fantasy through. It wasn't until the end of EP5 where he realizes the trick and reaches the truth.
Well, we know in EP5 Battler's viewpoint was not reliable, so the rules of how he could see Shannon and Kanon in that scene don't need much debating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
And for the objective bit, looking at it as a combination of what is being presented aligning with her own beliefs, I don't think that really holds up as a good counter argument. There is no 'real' objectivity and the closest definition to it is something along the lines of justified true beliefs. And 'true' has many different philosophic theories, one of which is that the 'fact' fits on with all other information. Which is exactly what would allow this fantasy to exist.
I think I understand better how you're interpreting this. It's about how the scenery the 'objective viewpoint' sees is decided by the Gamemaster, right? I know about all this "there's no real objectivity" talk, but I like to think that the "subjective meaning of objectivity" in the gameboards means it looks like the (if you can say physical) truth, the solution, of the game. The game must be made solvable, with a truth in mind. So if an objective viewpoint sees both Shannon and Kanon, they both are there physically. Unless the truth is fantasy. Might qualify for Ryukishi's dirty trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
One of the reason I like this theory is that it fits so perfectly. It fits within the stated rules of the series. It fits within what the characters would do. It explains lots of dialogue about why EP5 is unusual. It's a necessary piece to understanding Beatrice. It explains later events eloquently, such as why Battler understands everything after this specific arc, and Erika realizing where she went wrong in EP6. It fits with what the author was trying to get us to do in understading Beatrice. It doesn't need more complex rules, we just need to actually understand what EP1-4 was trying to tell us. It taps into the theme of mystery being equal to fantasy. There's so many reason that this theory fits.
Who wouldn't like a theory that fits perfectly? xD
I think you're overestimating EP5's importance. Battler did after all go through the previous tales again before arriving at the truth. And it was implied Umineko should be solvable after EP4, but a proclamation of solvability wasn't made until EP5. It might not be as necessary as you think, but there is probably some kind of great hint that made it click for Battler when he didn't get it from just Beatrice's games. And I don't think it is just going through the games with Knox rules in mind as implied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
She wanted Battler to see the truth. After seeing the EP5 Tea Party, it should no longer be possible to deny that she did. On the other hand, Lambda and Bern were clearly toying with Erika. They weren't trying to show her the truth. Or at least, the truth is not something that was very high on their list of priorities in EP5. This is more than evident by the fact that they worked together to frame Natsuhi even though we know that Natsuhi was not the culprit for that game.
I guess that's good enough. So, one of the things Beatrice could but wouldn't do. I'm not sure if Bern knew of Shkanon yet, but that's not her business as Lambda's the Gamemaster. But framing Natsuhi was clearly planned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
If you're referring to this:
Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!

Then, I think we need to take into account that it was spoken long after the parlor scene we're discussing. Said parlor scene was from Battler's point of view, who wasn't yet stated to have not been a Detective. And his narration said that he saw both Shannon and Kanon at the same time.

However, at that point in time, this Red wasn't used against him. Why? Because Dlanor wasn't there yet, so she didn't enforce this rule. If the rule is not enforced, then it shouldn't take effect. That's how rules work. She also can't enforce a rule if she doesn't realize that the rule is being broken. At that moment, if this theory about Erika seeing both of them even though there was only one body is true, there should have been no reason for Dlanor to suspect that it was an illusion, even if she was there.

Not only that, but the subject of this Red was Battler alone. Dlanor never used it on Erika.
I'm not outright referring to it. And I have grown a bit suspicious. I don't remember EP5 in every detail. So where was it confirmed that Erika had an objective viewpoint? Might it be the case that she got that ability only after the parlor scene, or possibly never got it? That would be really dirty, Ryukishi! That or the truth of the gameboard actually being fantasy.

Or perhaps it's not about Shannon and Kanon being in the parlor with Erika and Erika wasn't actually in the parlor seeing them. She, too, was added by unreliable narrator Battler.


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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
That's not what we're saying. This theory says that "Lambda inserted a fantasy element into Piece!Erika's observations, and it went undetected, because there was no reason to doubt that it was the truth at that time." It doesn't say that Erika wasn't paying attention.

But at any rate, the battle at the end of EP6 makes it clear that Erika did not suspect anything like the "ShKanon" theory.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. So it's the same point of view Keriaku seems to have, where the objective viewpoint is decided by the Gamemaster (on which I gave thoughts above)?



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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I'd say that it's possible, if only because the Red that refers to Shannon in EP5 is only speaking about something that happened before the game started. It's also possible that Shannon told someone about Natsuhi's secret. So for the duration of this one game, it's possible that Shannon didn't exist.
Shannon could have told someone or there were cards for every season hidden in the room, and MF19A told Natsuhi to look from where he hid the Fall card after she told her favourite season. The Shannon disrepancy is not exactly a big problem which couldn't be easily solved, I just threw that there.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This is one of the less ridiculous theories. I rather like it, but I would prefer one that allows both Kanon and Shannon to exist on the game board.
It's not like they couldn't both exist, the other one just never appears in front of Erika.



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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
There really is nothing that denies Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice, even after EP7.

This is because the only confirmation we have of Beatrice I's death is secondhand information from Nanjo.

Of course, there was a time when, in Kinzo's eyes, Beatrice I died. However, what kind of death that is, is something that is not necessarily clear.

There is nothing else, that I can remember, that would deny this theory.
Yeah, I thought about it long ago, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be picked up again. It's just easy to let it go, as it doesn't seem relevant anymore. There are things like how Kumasawa has been working on Rokkenjima such a long time. She might just be fond of the Beatrice bloodline, so she's staying for the sake of Yasu as a motherly figure.

By the way, I've noticed Kumasawa is most ofted staked with the Stake of Leviathan, the demon of Envy. If Kumasawa is the original Beatrice, maybe she's jealous of the attention Yasu is getting or something?

I compiled a list long ago, I'll share it (the victims are in episodic order):

Asmodeus (Lust) - Eva, Jessica, Rudolf
Beelzebub (Gluttony) - Hideyoshi, Gohda, Hideyoshi
Mammon (Greed) - Kinzo, Shannon, Kyrie
Satan (Wrath) - Kanon, Kanon, Natsuhi
Lucifer (Pride) - Genji, George, Krauss
Belphegor (Sloth) - Nanjo, Nanjo
Leviathan (Envy) - Kumasawa, Kumasawa
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:35   Link #27191
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
Really what we need to do here is figure out the workings of the Gameboard.
Yes!

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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
From watching the discussion, I wondered how the Detective's Authority never mentions anything about fighting Fantasy, or 'truth. It rather gives Erika a list of abilities.
Yes. People often associate Detective Authority with Erika's observational powers, but strictly speaking D.A. is only said/shown to do a few specific things:
  • Grants the detective the ability to identify a "corpse"'s true status with 100% accuracy. Incidentally, this ability was never used even once.
  • Grants the detective the right to investigate all crime scenes.
  • Apparently grants the detective use of Knox's Decalogue.

That's all. Notably, within the Decalogue there is only one rule relevant to Fantasy and that's "Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique." Its wording is interesting because it does not actually forbid supernatural agencies from being part of Mystery.

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And from this idea, let's go back to Battler. He has already gained an Endless Nine ability against fantasy through his past games. But perhaps we should say its 999....98, if he still allowed in Kanon at this point as well.
Although in this case I think it might be relevant that Meta-Battler wasn't even playing his own Piece.

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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
Erika comes in, not caring about fantasy in the least. A level number to fight against it wouldn't even mean anything to her. Instead, she attacks with high levels in mystery, with all sorts of critcial detective abilities. And she wins as a mystery, almost. She has no abilities against fantasy, so that's where she eventually loses with the corpes. She's also hit with Kanon, but that was not a direct strike, it's rather something that slides right past her.
By losing with the corpses you mean about how they all seemed to disappear from the cousins' room? Because there's a Mystery solution to that.

But in any case you make an interesting observation: Erika may dismiss fantasy out of course, but that doesn't mean she can differentiate fantasy from non-fantasy automatically. The idea that Shannon and Kanon are different people does not say "magical", so why would she question it?

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I do, of course, have some understanding of Detective's Authority, but my memory is a little blurry, so about all I remember is something like this:
"the observations that the detective makes can now potentially be raised to the level of red truth"
This is because most rules of the Decalogue, as well as the "perfect autopsy" ability, are just a categorical denial of the existence of any Devil's Proof that could cause a Mystery to not be solvable with 100% certainty.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
And even then, it seems to require the presence of a witch like Bern to raise it to red truth. Except for some times, like with her right to investigate all crime scenes. I don't think her duct tape would actually be at the level of Red if not for Bern.
Just like to point out that "being at the level of Red" is not the same as actually being Red.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I also don't like it when people say Erika didn't pay attention because she thought Shkanon was ridiculous. For example, what's with Battler and Erika's chain-locked room battle in EP8 then? She acknowledges them as quite ridiculous yes, but at least she can use them as possible solutions.
Well, since Erika said 18 she must necessarily have either rejected ShKanon for some reason or didn't even conceive of the idea in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Well I'm not saying my theory makes the most sense, but I don't think it's one people have given much thought. I posted it a few pages back, but didn't get any feedback on it, which I'd like to hear.
Well, I think you're right that Erika witnessed one total person between Kanon and Shannon; but that is hardly a new idea. The real question we've been discussing is why the parlor scene in EP 5 and the final scene in EP 6 don't correlate, which- you said it yourself- your ideas don't address, so I'm afraid there just isn't much to say.

------------

I'm out of time for now. I will reply to some other posts later.
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:18   Link #27192
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Now that I think of it, the thing that made it click for Battler was probably all the focus on mystery genre in EP5 and thinking about the games as a mystery story. He remembers his exchanges with Shannon from 6 years ago, realizes she's Beatrice and everything just falls into place from there. About the same thing seemed to have happened to Chick-Beato in EP6.

That makes sense with the whole Knox rules helping Battler thing. There might also be some scene which turns out to be revealing when viewed with the rules in mind, but I don't think they could be that much use. Maybe he thought more about disguises and twins with rule 10, though.

Just to expand my last post on EP5's importance. It's not necessarily anything pointing directly at Shkanon that was crucial for Battler.

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Well, I think you're right that Erika witnessed one total person between Kanon and Shannon; but that is hardly a new idea. The real question we've been discussing is why the parlor scene in EP 5 and the final scene in EP 6 don't correlate, which- you said it yourself- your ideas don't address, so I'm afraid there just isn't much to say.
I just didn't remember anyone proposing that before, so I put it forth. It might solve EP5 but seems pretty useless in the big picture. Unless EP5's Meta-Erika is somehow different from the one in EP6...?
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:36   Link #27193
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
By losing with the corpses you mean about how they all seemed to disappear from the cousins' room? Because there's a Mystery solution to that.

But in any case you make an interesting observation: Erika may dismiss fantasy out of course, but that doesn't mean she can differentiate fantasy from non-fantasy automatically. The idea that Shannon and Kanon are different people does not say "magical", so why would she question it?
I apologize as I haven't read EP5 in quite a long time. But it's true that there's a Mystery solution. There's probably a Mystery solution to all Fantasy, just as Fantasy can be inserted in all unknowns. It's the fact that Erika let the fantasy stand which put her off balance, leading to her loss. It's specifically a win for Beatrice in the trial, isn't it? This fits in line with my theory, as Erika loses by placing too much worth on Mystery alone and she's surprised when that's not as infalliable as she expects. It's thematically the same message as leaving a Kanon fantasy that the detective does not detect. Where if she had been using a bit of anti-Fantasy as well, she would have checked the corpses to destroy any possible illusion. I'd say she 'learns from her mistake' for EP6, but she never changes her attitude to an Anti-Fantasy one. She just kills them instead.

EP6 is actually a bit interesting with this reading of Erika, because Erika never really engages Battler from an anti-Fantasy stance over his gameboard. Rather she just goes for a meta-attack.
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:43   Link #27194
Jaden
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About the Kumasawa/original Beatrice... What's a mystery without some red herrings? I myself entertained the idea of Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice who he couldn't acknowledge because she had lost her beauty or something long ago. But red herrings need their explanations as well, and it did happen in Kumasawa's case.
There really is nothing that denies Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice, even after EP7.

This is because the only confirmation we have of Beatrice I's death is secondhand information from Nanjo.

Of course, there was a time when, in Kinzo's eyes, Beatrice I died. However, what kind of death that is, is something that is not necessarily clear.

There is nothing else, that I can remember, that would deny this theory.
There is Kumasawa's family in the mainland right?
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Old 2012-01-20, 19:48   Link #27195
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There is Kumasawa's family in the mainland right?
Hm, actually I'd forgotten about that. Though, technically, the only one we saw was her son.

Well, I'm not saying that I believe Kumasawa is Beatrice I.

I do think that it's exceedingly odd though, that we never saw the story of how Kinzo met Kumasawa. After all, we know how Kinzo met both Nanjo and Genji... She's the only one of his old friends that we didn't get a story for. And while she may not be super close to him, it's clear that there is a high level of trust between them, since Kumasawa acted as Beatrice II's mother and knew all about Kuwadorian all along.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:00   Link #27196
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There really is nothing that denies Kumasawa being Kinzo's Beatrice, even after EP7.
Except that, by all indications, Beatrice I is a blond-haired, blue-eyed Italian and Kumasawa is, by all indications, Japanese, who are virtually never blond-haired or blue-eyed.

I wouldn't completely put it past RK07 to just ignore these common sense racial characteristics, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I'm not outright referring to it. And I have grown a bit suspicious. I don't remember EP5 in every detail. So where was it confirmed that Erika had an objective viewpoint? Might it be the case that she got that ability only after the parlor scene, or possibly never got it? That would be really dirty, Ryukishi! That or the truth of the gameboard actually being fantasy.
The terms 'subjective' and 'objective' are mentioned in reference to 'detectives' in this sequence of Reds and Blue. I think it's the only time they ever are.

Dlanor: Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED! Until now, you have been the DETECTIVE! Was it ever shown that you were not the detective this time, and that you were an observer with a subjective VIEWPOINT?!! Unless it was, you do not have the right to falsify your point of VIEW!!
Battler: In this game! When I figured out the device of the epitaph's riddle, I witnessed Grandfather. ......As has already been shown in red, Grandfather doesn't exist. It was impossible for me to witness him! Therefore, it has already been shown that my viewpoint wasn't objective!!
(EDIT): Dlanor: It is possible that it was just a sheet or something fluttering in the wind and rain which you mistook for Kinzo. It cannot be used as foreshadowing to form a basis for Knox's 9th...!! Mistaking things for something else is a right permitted to all observers!!
Battler:There's the red truth which Beato showed during the 4th game!! No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight!
Battler:In other words, on this island, all illusions which might lead someone to mistake something for Grandfather, including someone else pretending to be Grandfather, 'most certainly cannot work'.
Battler:Because of the right granted by Knox's 9th, people are allowed to mistake a sheet in the wind for anything else and tell about it. ......However! Mistaking it for Grandfather in particular is not permitted in this game due to the red truth!!

(EDIT): The bolded Blue tells us that "objective" people can still mistake one thing for another, so long as they do so honestly. Although when it comes to Erika she's allegedly got a perfect photographic memory, so it's hard to justify any theory that relies on her making observational mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Or perhaps it's not about Shannon and Kanon being in the parlor with Erika and Erika wasn't actually in the parlor seeing them. She, too, was added by unreliable narrator Battler.
Regardless of the narrator there are the Reds:
  • Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
  • Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
  • In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.
(EDIT): But to make a small amendment: What if all of Meta-Erika's knowledge comes from Battler's narration in End and none from Piece-Erika... Hmm... I think we may be on to something here.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-01-20 at 22:47. Reason: Added Dlanor's blue, changed my comments on them, added final comment..
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Old 2012-01-20, 23:59   Link #27197
AuraTwilight
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Except that, by all indications, Beatrice I is a blond-haired, blue-eyed Italian and Kumasawa is, by all indications, Japanese, who are virtually never blond-haired or blue-eyed.

I wouldn't completely put it past RK07 to just ignore these common sense racial characteristics, though.
Let's also keep in mind that Ryukishi very blatantly doesn't seem to think the characters look the way he draws them. Like Jessica's blonde hair.

Quote:
(EDIT): But to make a small amendment: What if all of Meta-Erika's knowledge comes from Battler's narration in End and none from Piece-Erika... Hmm... I think we may be on to something here.
Then we run into the same objections Renall and I raised pages ago about Detective's Authority being totally useless. You're kind of going in circles.
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Old 2012-01-21, 00:20   Link #27198
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Then we run into the same objections Renall and I raised pages ago about Detective's Authority being totally useless. You're kind of going in circles.
One, Renall's main complaint against my claim was that I was postulating that there was a communication mechanic between the GM and a RMP that had no clues for it. The current idea involves no such thing.

Two, why is it a problem if Detective's Authority is not useful in this case?
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Old 2012-01-21, 02:34   Link #27199
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His main complaint was that the Detective's Authority was being completely undermind, which is still happening here. If you're arguing that Erika has never had access to her Piece's knowledge, observations, and narration, in what sense is it any different from there being a communication mechanic between Erika and the Gameboard that obfuscates information?

This was what Renall and I were originally complaining about before you brought up the Reader thing. We've gone in a complete 360.
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Old 2012-01-21, 04:58   Link #27200
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guys in ep5 first twilight . didnt cousing faked death? but the red.. gosh i hate ep5. !!!!!!!!
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