AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-01-22, 05:00   Link #27221
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I'll just have to respectfully disagree on that, then.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 07:39   Link #27222
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 20
Send a message via MSN to Bluemail
I gathered Keriaku's theory is basically:

Fantasy can visibly exist on the gameboard until it is denied by anti-magic toxin. Most obviously magical things like demons and golden butterflies would be easily denied in front of Erika and immediately cease to exist from that point forward. The subtler fantasy of Shannon and Kanon existing together is able to stand as it doesn't obviously look like a fantasy. Until the trick is exposed, they are both able to visibly exist together.

And the reason for not showing Shannon and Kanon together in front of Battler is either because he has Endless Nine that destroys even subtler fantasies, or that it was used in EP5 as a thing Beatrice could but wouldn't do, as she wanted to leave a hint to Battler.

Is that a good general summary?
__________________

Umineko no Naku Koro ni ~Rondo of the Witch and Reasoning~ for PS3/PSP
NISA publisher support thread - AKSYS publisher support thread - Facebook group - deviantArt group - Petition
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 08:40   Link #27223
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
The subtler fantasy of Shannon and Kanon existing together is able to stand as it doesn't obviously look like a fantasy. Until the trick is exposed, they are both able to visibly exist together.
In that case, what is the trick that makes it look like they are both existing at the same time?
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 10:02   Link #27224
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I only really have one problem with this theory. If Erika never really made use of Detective's Authority, and it therefore had practically no impact on the game apart from letting Erika investigate all crime scenes (which she didn't even do, causing her downfall at the end), then why would Ryukishi have put it in EP5 in the first place?

If he put it in just to fake us out, that would be kind of silly...
Erika used Detective's Authority to enter in the room where there were supposed to be the corpses of the cousins... but didn't bother to check the corpses, although, with detective's authority, she could have realized immediately they weren't dead.

In Ep 6 she also didn't have her piece check if Kanon entered in the room he was supposed to be closed in, merely demanded a red truth that, according to her, assured he was in.
Note that Erika sealed the rooms but never checked who was inside directly and that's likely also because she was looking for a logic error, not for the culprit.

So it's easy to assume that in the first game she played in, she never checked where the servants were, because she was aiming at framing Natsuhi, not one of the servants.

Photographic memory is useful only if you look around. In a room where people are moving around and where she's staring at the cousins, talking with them in the moment where it's declared everyone is there, she didn't have a full visual of the room, nor she bothered to get one so it was easy to place Kanon or Shannon or both behind her without her caring she hadn't seen them both at the same time or that she might not have seen one of them enter in the room.

What is much more illogic and should have drawn her attention is actually the scene with Kinzo's room.
Everyone is in front of the door when they knock for Kinzo and Shannon and Kanon both speak more than once.
Now, in the parlour is possible Erika wasn't checking who was there or what it was doing because busy in other things or because disinterested but HERE it's hard to assume one of the two remained out of her field of vision and there's definitely no time for one of them to change into the other's clothes.

The same goes for when they managed to enter in Kinzo's room.
Everyone is present (if one of the two was absent it would have looked rather odd thought it could be explained with a 'Kanon went to put away the ladder') and Shannon and Kanon again talk.

If Bern, because at the moment it was Bern that was moving Erika, we never see Erika in the meta world, was listening/watching the story, she evidently wasn't doing it through the eyes of a reliable narrator but what's worst is that Erika will never go back and check that this part of the story either doesn't match with what she could remember (just Kanon or Shannon being present and not both) or it requires for both to have a body.

So I think if we want to focus on how Erika never noticed Shannon and Kanon can't be present at the same time, we should check this scene, not the parlour one.
Someone can come up with an explanation for it?
One that's not Shannon and Kanon were two different people?
And also... is this scene presented in the same way in the PS version? (with both Shannon and Kanon present and talking?)
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 10:26   Link #27225
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saitama, Japan
Age: 27
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
In that case, what is the trick that makes it look like they are both existing at the same time?
The premise itself: it is difficult to imagine a single person being able to impersonate Shannon and Kanon by themselve, especially how it would be hard to juggle between the duties and the disguises.
The very same point why a lot of people don't like the whole shkanon thing (that and personality switch).
Klashikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 11:09   Link #27226
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
In that case, what is the trick that makes it look like they are both existing at the same time?
The trick is that "Kanon was being anti-social." Since his role in the entire thing was extremely minimal, it was possible to find room for him to exist in the Parlor during this scene. Was he actually there? There's theories which allow him to be, like Keriaku's, but who really knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
stuff
Well, you don't need to convince me of this stuff, since I pretty much already agree with it all. I was just saying that, according to the "Erika never saw things from Piece!Erika's perspective in EP5" theory, Detective's Authority only became useful in one instance (cousin's room), and even then, she didn't make use of the privileges she had, so I still don't really like that theory.

Quote:
What is much more illogic and should have drawn her attention is actually the scene with Kinzo's room.
Everyone is in front of the door when they knock for Kinzo and Shannon and Kanon both speak more than once.
Now, in the parlour is possible Erika wasn't checking who was there or what it was doing because busy in other things or because disinterested but HERE it's hard to assume one of the two remained out of her field of vision and there's definitely no time for one of them to change into the other's clothes.

The same goes for when they managed to enter in Kinzo's room.
Everyone is present (if one of the two was absent it would have looked rather odd thought it could be explained with a 'Kanon went to put away the ladder') and Shannon and Kanon again talk.

If Bern, because at the moment it was Bern that was moving Erika, we never see Erika in the meta world, was listening/watching the story, she evidently wasn't doing it through the eyes of a reliable narrator but what's worst is that Erika will never go back and check that this part of the story either doesn't match with what she could remember (just Kanon or Shannon being present and not both) or it requires for both to have a body.

So I think if we want to focus on how Erika never noticed Shannon and Kanon can't be present at the same time, we should check this scene, not the parlour one.
Someone can come up with an explanation for it?
One that's not Shannon and Kanon were two different people?
And also... is this scene presented in the same way in the PS version? (with both Shannon and Kanon present and talking?)
If this scene is how you describe it, then it certainly is harder to justify.

The idea of Fantasy is that it's just a different process leading up to the same result. But if we say, here, that the result is "Erika talked to both Shannon and Kanon at once" then we get stuck. After all, the Fantasy itself cannot be the result; it never is. It's always just the process.

Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the result was actually something more vague like "Erika and the others investigated Kinzo's study." The Game Master is free to show us any process she wishes, which leads up to that result. Whether we believe it or not, is up to us.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 12:36   Link #27227
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Well, you don't need to convince me of this stuff, since I pretty much already agree with it all. I was just saying that, according to the "Erika never saw things from Piece!Erika's perspective in EP5" theory, Detective's Authority only became useful in one instance (cousin's room), and even then, she didn't make use of the privileges she had, so I still don't really like that theory.
Sorry, I misunderstood you then...

My idea about Erika is that she's nothing else but Bern's Mary Sue (I wonder if she can also sing well).
Someone who can do amazing things in her author's idea... though since her author is a poor writer, Erika ends up being poorly used.
She doesn't use her amazing powers when it could be useful to use them, tries to twist the story for her own end and gives life to a poor story.

Erika complained so much it was a third rated mystery but it wouldn't have been third rated if she had solved it properly.

I guess also Erika exists to make fun of those who thought 'if I were in Battler's place I would have done better'. Bern places her in Battler's place to do better, gives her a certain inner knowledge of how things will work but still Erika fails badly and her superpowers sort of make her look like a parody of a detective instead than a realistic detective.

So, maybe, the mere reason due to which she has superpowers (because DA is presented very much like one) is merely to make fun of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
If this scene is how you describe it, then it certainly is harder to justify.

The idea of Fantasy is that it's just a different process leading up to the same result. But if we say, here, that the result is "Erika talked to both Shannon and Kanon at once" then we get stuck. After all, the Fantasy itself cannot be the result; it never is. It's always just the process.

Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the result was actually something more vague like "Erika and the others investigated Kinzo's study." The Game Master is free to show us any process she wishes, which leads up to that result. Whether we believe it or not, is up to us.
Well, technically she didn't talk to them but they spoke out loud and were both described as present.
Erika has also an impressive hearing so, if they talked, she should have heard them, no way to turn around this.

The only way to handle this is with a more or less ridicule solution.

Servants generally are positioned behind the Ushiromiya. If you don't count Kanon and Shannon the group of people in front of Kinzo's room and in Kinzo's room was of ten people. If you remove Erika they're 9 and all taller than Erika. Assuming they all wanted to keep hidden the fact that Shannon and Kanon are the same person (and this is possible since Shannon was technically an ally of both Natsuhi & Eva's group) they merely took care to keep Shannon (or Kanon) always behind them.
Due to this Erika wouldn't have noticed that just one of them was present, since both groups were adversaries but pursuing the same goal she might not have noticed suspicious that they all ended up covering Shannon and Kanon fron her sight and would have allowed Shannon to use both her and Kanon's voice.
Erika is already targeting Natsuhi so she's not paying Shannon and Kanon any attention.

Battler himself used in that scene the trick of the observer not being able to observe the room fully so the same trick can be used by Shannon and Kanon.

The problem I have with this explanation however is that in real life you either need a dumb Erika or Houdini to make it work... though it might be a case of dumb Erika. When Battler jumped out of the window she didn't rush to look at how he was falling so she didn't saw how he solved the problem of jumping down but had to figure it out.

Evidently Erika rarely check things with her eyes...

Still I don't like the explanation at all.
The whole thing feels forced... though the ShKannon feels forced as well so maybe it was bound to be.

Anyone can offer something better?
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 13:23   Link #27228
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Sorry, I misunderstood you then...

My idea about Erika is that she's nothing else but Bern's Mary Sue (I wonder if she can also sing well).
Someone who can do amazing things in her author's idea... though since her author is a poor writer, Erika ends up being poorly used.
She doesn't use her amazing powers when it could be useful to use them, tries to twist the story for her own end and gives life to a poor story.

Erika complained so much it was a third rated mystery but it wouldn't have been third rated if she had solved it properly.

I guess also Erika exists to make fun of those who thought 'if I were in Battler's place I would have done better'. Bern places her in Battler's place to do better, gives her a certain inner knowledge of how things will work but still Erika fails badly and her superpowers sort of make her look like a parody of a detective instead than a realistic detective.

So, maybe, the mere reason due to which she has superpowers (because DA is presented very much like one) is merely to make fun of them.
I'm one of those people who dislikes a certain part of the ending of EP8. And that part, is the part where BATTLER suddenly went super saiyan and beat the mess out of Bern when he shouldn't have been able to under any circumstances. The only way it could have been possible, is with a miracle, and Bern controls miracles.

Therefore, a miracle will not occur for him.

So what this means is, is that Bern was completely pathetic in that scene. And as someone who was a big fan of Bern, I found this inexplicable patheticness to be quite troubling.

I don't believe that Bern is pathetic. And, I also don't believe that Erika is. Actually, even if Erika did fail in the end in both EP5 and 6, some of the things she pulled off were simply amazing.

Both Bern and Erika are very competent, but they have flaws that drag them down. I have no trouble accepting that. Certainly, they both do have flaws, like how Bern is only concerned with what outcome will be the most interesting, and how Erika has too much pride.

However, I won't believe that they exist just to be your everyday cannon fodder antagonists, or even worse, that they're just there so that they can parody things and look stupid.

Quote:
Well, technically she didn't talk to them but they spoke out loud and were both described as present.
Erika has also an impressive hearing so, if they talked, she should have heard them, no way to turn around this.

The only way to handle this is with a more or less ridicule solution.

Servants generally are positioned behind the Ushiromiya. If you don't count Kanon and Shannon the group of people in front of Kinzo's room and in Kinzo's room was of ten people. If you remove Erika they're 9 and all taller than Erika. Assuming they all wanted to keep hidden the fact that Shannon and Kanon are the same person (and this is possible since Shannon was technically an ally of both Natsuhi & Eva's group) they merely took care to keep Shannon (or Kanon) always behind them.
Due to this Erika wouldn't have noticed that just one of them was present, since both groups were adversaries but pursuing the same goal she might not have noticed suspicious that they all ended up covering Shannon and Kanon fron her sight and would have allowed Shannon to use both her and Kanon's voice.
Erika is already targeting Natsuhi so she's not paying Shannon and Kanon any attention.

Battler himself used in that scene the trick of the observer not being able to observe the room fully so the same trick can be used by Shannon and Kanon.

The problem I have with this explanation however is that in real life you either need a dumb Erika or Houdini to make it work... though it might be a case of dumb Erika. When Battler jumped out of the window she didn't rush to look at how he was falling so she didn't saw how he solved the problem of jumping down but had to figure it out.

Evidently Erika rarely check things with her eyes...

Still I don't like the explanation at all.
The whole thing feels forced... though the ShKannon feels forced as well so maybe it was bound to be.

Anyone can offer something better?
You're trying to take this scene at face value and explain the tricks in it. However, this same scene has things like, for example, Piece!Battler being able to see into a higher plane where the battle between Piece!Beato and Dlanor is taking place.

I'd just like to say that taking everything in Umineko at face value, is a huge error. You just can't do that, unless you want to look at it as a Fantasy-genre story.

Well, actually, there's nothing wrong with looking at the story that way. You're free to believe it's Fantasy if you like. It's just that, from that very instant onwards, you'll no longer be able to reason about the various truths hidden within the story.

As you say, it's theoretically possible to find a trick with the result of "Shannon and Kanon are both overheard by Erika while they're all in the same location." However, when it starts to get that ridiculous, I think we should look at it from a different angle.

In other words, did that scene actually happen as it was told?

It's well known that the Game Master can show us whatever they want. There are no restrictions on how ridiculous they can make it. In fact, the GM could have a witch tear Rokkenjima into two equal halves on a whim, with their bare hands, and it would be perfectly fine as long as there is nothing else in the story which require a Piece to interact with something or someone on the other side of the island. Actually, they could even get around that by having the witch put the two halves together again, or construct a huge bridge between the two halves with a snap of their fingers.

Therefore, my theory is that what we saw, was at least partially fabricated by the GM. There is no need to explain why Erika was able to hear both of them if we question the idea that she ever did hear both of them.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 15:32   Link #27229
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
I want to clear something up about Photographic memory. I think some of us on here are treating that as some kind of video recorder in Erika's head that records every single waking second and that she can play this back at will and check instantly. Eidetic memory doesn't work that way. In particular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Much like any other memory, the intensity of the recall may be subject to several factors such as duration and frequency of exposure to the stimulus, conscious observation, relevance to the person, etc. This fact stands in contrast to the general misinterpretation of the term which assumes a constant and total recall of all events.
I have the this type of memory and I can attest that it doesn't work like a constantly playing video recorder. Something notable has to have occurred which caused me to have interest. When that does happen, I do have recall of scenes, even as far back as when I was 3 years old.

I think the misconception comes from how other detectives like Sherlock Holmes say they have a total recall of the crime scene. This is because their interest lies in detective work and that they consciously turn it on. In fact, they have trained themselves to do so. Erika is most likely meaning this; that she can do what these other detectives do with their photographic memory.

Sherlock Holmes has no chance of remember the chips and notches on the lamp post he hurries by on the way to the crime scene unless he thought it was interesting somehow. And Erika would not be able to use photographic memory for something like Shannon and Kanon unless she suspected it... which she did, later.


Anyways, I think the real issue we all have around Shannon and Kanon is the idea that the detective was supposed to be the true observer for the reader and that this seems to be subverted by the EP5 scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I'm one of those people who dislikes a certain part of the ending of EP8. And that part, is the part where BATTLER suddenly went super saiyan and beat the mess out of Bern when he shouldn't have been able to under any circumstances. The only way it could have been possible, is with a miracle, and Bern controls miracles.

Therefore, a miracle will not occur for him.

So what this means is, is that Bern was completely pathetic in that scene. And as someone who was a big fan of Bern, I found this inexplicable patheticness to be quite troubling.
You know, I thought Bern was purposely playing this role for the good of the story. In the same way that Lambdadelta got to play the role as the sacrificed hero. If you think about it, Bern was being nice in that she had to play a villain and she played it by being defeated by the hero... 8)

In the final epilogue where they were discussing what happened to all the other meta characters, it felt like to me that they were finally done with playing villains.

So I gave some bonus points to Bernkastel for playing her part nice. It's almost like she's a tsundere. 8)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 15:44   Link #27230
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You know, I thought Bern was purposely playing this role for the good of the story. In the same way that Lambdadelta got to play the role as the sacrificed hero. If you think about it, Bern was being nice in that she had to play a villain and she played it by being defeated by the hero... 8)

In the final epilogue where they were discussing what happened to all the other meta characters, it felt like to me that they were finally done with playing villains.

So I gave some bonus points to Bernkastel for playing her part nice. It's almost like she's a tsundere. 8)
Hm. I guess this is a satisfying explanation. From what I hear, Frederica wasn't a sadistic antagonist figure in Higurashi, though I don't know the details. And considering the EP8 Tea Party, you're right, it's possible she was just playing her part.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 16:01   Link #27231
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Oh yeah, about memory. There are only 6 people in the world with super-autobiographical memory, called Hyperthymesia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia

This appears to be different than photographic memory, which is what Erika claims in that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Hyperthymestic individuals appear to have poorer than average memory for arbitrary information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Hm. I guess this is a satisfying explanation. From what I hear, Frederica wasn't a sadistic antagonist figure in Higurashi, though I don't know the details. And considering the EP8 Tea Party, you're right, it's possible she was just playing her part.
Frederica Bernkastel was more of a tragic super entity of Rika in Higurashi, I think. I think for Umineko it was Ryukishi's implication that it was Bernkastel's turn to play the villain, unlike Higurashi where Lambdadelta was doing it.

Mind you, he never really connected the two series by other than suggestive hints. There was no Lambdadelta or Featherine in Higurashi to begin with. He's only ever just danced around this... 8)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 16:28   Link #27232
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Both Bern and Erika are very competent, but they have flaws that drag them down. I have no trouble accepting that. Certainly, they both do have flaws, like how Bern is only concerned with what outcome will be the most interesting, and how Erika has too much pride.

However, I won't believe that they exist just to be your everyday cannon fodder antagonists, or even worse, that they're just there so that they can parody things and look stupid.
I think the thing Ryukishi might be trying to make fun of isn't the character per se but the stereotype on which the character is based.

The process used by Bern to create Erika is way too close to the one used by many authors to create a Mary Sue. The goal Bern has clashes with the one of the game, like the stories that have a Mary Sue save the world in place of the hero, or marrying the hero in place of the hero's girlfriend (sometimes even turning straight an hero who previously had a boyfriend) or even changing completely the genre of the story.

As a result Bern and Erika are the bad guys and are supposed to make stupid mistakes caused by their arrogance and lose.

In short Ryukishi might have created a parallel between the usual bad guy that wants to destroy/rule the world and fanfiction writers that wants to twist a story for their own ends.

This doesn't mean that Bern and Erika are poor characters. As far as bad guys go they are cool.
The antagonist doesn't have to be unlikable or completely dense... even thought more often he never follows the rules a good evil overlord should follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
You're trying to take this scene at face value and explain the tricks in it. However, this same scene has things like, for example, Piece!Battler being able to see into a higher plane where the battle between Piece!Beato and Dlanor is taking place.
I checked the scene carefully and it's made by a mix of 'real scenes' and 'meta battles scenes'. Basically people in the story entered in the parlour and discussed things, though they never saw Dlanor or Cornelia and Geltrude, nor Beato, Kinzo or the stakes. Shannon and Kanon spoke during the 'real scenes' not the meta ones.

As I see it the 'meta battle' is merely a fantasy representation of the intellectual duel going on. Each time there's a reasoning there's a bit of 'meta battle'.
It looks like even a meta!Natsuhi had a brief apparition in the meta world and this because the whole battle in the 'real' world is likely between her and Erika, Beato being merely her own delusion.
Battler wasn't supposed to join the meta battle. Beato gives us a fantasy explanation (he's a piece) but more likely because piece!Battler isn't supposed to be on Natsuhi's side so why should he try to help Beato?
Although the fantasy scenes show piece!Beato, Yasu's creation, on Natsuhi's side, Yasu likely is aware that the siblings are working to corner Natsuhi. To hand the ring to Battler most likely Shannon or Kanon personally handed the envelope to the siblings and they also told them about the mysterious phone calls that are used to trick Natsuhi into going in Hideyoshi's room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
In other words, did that scene actually happen as it was told?
The problem is that Erika, the detective, shouldn't be able to witness magic unless she's having a 'meta moment'. She's supposed to have an objective point of view.

It's all fine and dandy when the magic scene takes place where Erika can't see. If the narrative says Battler saw a dragon showing up behind her the narrative is being subjective without violating Erika objectivity. She didn't see the dragon so the dragon could exist in the dark zone of magic (there's a similar scene in EP 5). As Beato said:

Quote:
All darkness outside the range of observers belongs to us demons.
The problem is that Erika has perfect hearing abilities.

Quote:
"Erika has a photographic memory. And her hearing ability is on par with a tape recorder. ......It was impossible for him to deceive Erika's ears, kill George and the others and slit their throats."
So, as soon as Shannon and Kanon talk they can be heard by Erika. Merely hearing them is fine as one person can speak with 2 different voices but a person can't be 2 different people in the same time. So either they were hidden to her sight and she never cared about it or showing them to her would be the same as showing a dragon to her in the 'real' world.
In order to do so you should prove that she's not the detective in this game, however with the detective proclamation I fear this is impossible so you would create a logic error.

So yes, it's stupid they spoke and yet she never noticed she couldn't see one of them but she has not the option to see them both without going 'meta'.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 16:33   Link #27233
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
@Kylon: Ryukishi has already demonstrated that he makes up mental disorders and mental abilities. Why should Erika's super mary sue bullshit ultra-memory be an exception?
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 17:02   Link #27234
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Anyways, I think the real issue we all have around Shannon and Kanon is the idea that the detective was supposed to be the true observer for the reader and that this seems to be subverted by the EP5 scene.
Well, your explanation would fit nicely with my idea for the parlour scene... though I still don't like much how in front and inside Kinzo's room she was able to hear both Shannon and Kanon's voice but never saw them... or at least one of them, and didn't find it odd.
Unless Erika really considered them like furnitures and never bothered to look at them...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 17:20   Link #27235
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The process used by Bern to create Erika is way too close to the one used by many authors to create a Mary Sue. The goal Bern has clashes with the one of the game, like the stories that have a Mary Sue save the world in place of the hero, or marrying the hero in place of the hero's girlfriend (sometimes even turning straight an hero who previously had a boyfriend) or even changing completely the genre of the story.
I'm not denying that Erika is a Mary Sue. I don't think I could possibly find a way to deny it, actually. Lol. But, I think she's one of the cases where it's done right. At the very least, a lot of the scenes with her in them are quite entertaining.

Quote:
even thought more often he never follows the rules a good evil overlord should follow.
You also go to TvTropes?

Quote:
I checked the scene carefully and it's made by a mix of 'real scenes' and 'meta battles scenes'. Basically people in the story entered in the parlour and discussed things, though they never saw Dlanor or Cornelia and Geltrude, nor Beato, Kinzo or the stakes. Shannon and Kanon spoke during the 'real scenes' not the meta ones.
The very fact that both Shannon and Kanon are there at the same time, not to mention that they both speak, denies it being a "real scene." There is at least a little Fantasy mixed in.

Quote:
The problem is that Erika, the detective, shouldn't be able to witness magic unless she's having a 'meta moment'. She's supposed to have an objective point of view.
We didn't see the narration from Piece!Erika's point of view, so it's even possible that the narrator said "I saw Erika there" and it wasn't necessarily true.

It's possible for the GM to make it look like a Piece is in a certain place when they're actually somewhere else, or nowhere at all. This is the very core of the Illusion of the Witch. So in other words, we've been given more than enough hints.

What I'm saying, is that the entire scene is probably a heavily modified version of what actually happened. The fact that Lambda did what she did with the Parlor scene makes it obvious that she's more than willing to play "dirtier" tricks than Beatrice did in EP1-4.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 17:47   Link #27236
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
@Kylon: Ryukishi has already demonstrated that he makes up mental disorders and mental abilities. Why should Erika's super mary sue bullshit ultra-memory be an exception?
Ryukishi has demonstrated an understanding of mental disorders with Tooya though, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. And it's safer to assume that he does understand as, really, information like this is only one google away. In addition the way he writes his stories with hidden clues and historical background checking suggest meticulousness with the possibility of error, rather than carelessness with the possibility of being right by coincidence.

However, Erika can definitely BE a tape recorder when she's interested. And she's definitely interested in murder mysteries despite calling this a 3rd rate mystery. (I guess he wants to prove herself regardless.) And so she demonstrates keen memory, especially with things like alibis.

She didn't display any interest in Shannon or Kanon until EP6 though, so I don't assume it would have been turned on. At best, you could say, why wasn't Erika aware of the genre convention of cheating with twins or disguises; which is something she should have been looking for. That's one of the classic signs of bad detective mysteries, which she (and Dlanor) should've been aware of.

I still chalk it up to Erika behaving more to frame Natsuhi, I think from unspoken agreement with Lambdadelta and Bernkastel.

I'm not talking about the detective as observer point of view here though, which seems to be a separate problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, your explanation would fit nicely with my idea for the parlour scene... though I still don't like much how in front and inside Kinzo's room she was able to hear both Shannon and Kanon's voice but never saw them... or at least one of them, and didn't find it odd.
Unless Erika really considered them like furnitures and never bothered to look at them...
There's still the matter of why what was supposed to be a view into the story by the detective ended up being unreliable though. In normal detective stories; and indeed in EP1-4, the detective is not supposed to be cheated in what he sees so that we have a chance of solving the mystery. It's kind of an unspoken rule.


Although, I view EP5, 6 and 7 as more anti-games. (EP8 too, technically.) EP5 was supposed to be a demonstration of a game without love so I expected all sorts of unsolvable weird stuff. EP6 seemed more like a demonstration of a game with two people at the wheel and the ability to retcon the hell out of it; not surprising the whole story ended up into the gutter. 8) EP7 feels more like a story where truth was presented, but only enough so that you get the wrong idea. And then it tacked on biased opinions as if they were fact; more for the people of Rokkenjima Prime, to convince them that Kyrie was a cold blooded killer. EP8 felt like a study on the pure puzzle aspects of a detective novel when you take away the literary parts. It felt further along on the spectrum than the first Van Dine novel, for example.

Anyways, I only view EP1-4 as full detective mystery games and although EP5-6, as messed up as they were (they didn't even finish properly; how can you have a detective story that just stops in the middle... ) they did provid us with important clues/answers for EP1-4...

Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-01-22 at 17:51. Reason: EDIT: Undoing my crimes against commas.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 18:04   Link #27237
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I'm not denying that Erika is a Mary Sue. I don't think I could possibly find a way to deny it, actually. Lol. But, I think she's one of the cases where it's done right. At the very least, a lot of the scenes with her in them are quite entertaining.
I personally like Erika but I think she's supposed to play the 'bad stereotype' in opposition to Will, who, although being an original character and if you want a Gary Stu of some sort (awesome powers, cool sword, legendary reputation and we're actually shown him solving a mystery out of the gameboard as well as the one in the gameboard), follows the rules of the game and didn't want to interfere with the story nor twist it for his own ends (actually the only time he does something of his own volition is when he believes it's Bern that's twisting again the story for her own ends trying to kill Lion... otherwise he's forced by Bern to investigate).

This don't stop Erika from being an awesome character, she just have to play a... well, let's call it a 'bad role'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
You also go to TvTropes?
Well, I'm not really that much into TvTropes but the Evil Overlord list and the assorted lists that it inspired are something I love madly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The very fact that both Shannon and Kanon are there at the same time, not to mention that they both speak, denies it being a "real scene." There is at least a little Fantasy mixed in.
For me is a case of the scene being presented in Battler's subjective perspective.
He can 'observe Shannon and Kanon at the same time' as long as he doesn't show them to Erika. The same goes for the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
We didn't see the narration from Piece!Erika's point of view, so it's even possible that the narrator said "I saw Erika there" and it wasn't necessarily true.

It's possible for the GM to make it look like a Piece is in a certain place when they're actually somewhere else, or nowhere at all. This is the very core of the Illusion of the Witch. So in other words, we've been given more than enough hints.

What I'm saying, is that the entire scene is probably a heavily modified version of what actually happened. The fact that Lambda did what she did with the Parlor scene makes it obvious that she's more than willing to play "dirtier" tricks than Beatrice did in EP1-4.
The problem always rely on the objective viewpoint of the detective.
I think the thing can be read in a way that means 'the narrative MUST be honest about the detective: where he is, what he does, what he sees, what he hears, though the narrative can lie about everyone else'.

In short, to follow your example, the subjective narrative can't lie about Erika being there... because it would create a clash with Erika needing to have an objective viewpoint. However, as long as Erika can't observe what the subjective narrative proposes because... let's say it's happening behind her, you can have all the magic scenes you want.

At least this is how I interpret the 'objective viewpoint' of the detective.

Funny enough saying there was no objective viewpoint in all EP 5 can also mean that Erika was also something that was made up and that she actually was never witnessed by anyone in Rokenjima...
LOL, poor Erika, I've just denied her existence...

... and weren't there theories that assumed Erika never existed in Rokkenjima?
Someone willing to refresh my memory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
There's still the matter of why what was supposed to be a view into the story by the detective ended up being unreliable though. In normal detective stories; and indeed in EP1-4, the detective is not supposed to be cheated in what he sees so that we have a chance of solving the mystery. It's kind of an unspoken rule.
That's why I'm assuming Erika actually didn't see Shannon and Kanon together because busy talking with Battler while 'they were behind her' and didn't bother to check about WHY she couldn't see them together because she decided that servants can't be the culprit (or Bern didn't want them to be the culprit).

Actually in some mysteries the culprit tries to cheat the detective in what he sees... the trick is that the detective never see something that's not true but, since the culprit implied the detective might have witnessed it, we believe he does.

For example... let's say that the culprit must wear a costume with a cape to commit his crimes. So, to let the detective believe he's not the culprit he would say something along the line of 'look, there's a person wearing a cape escaping' and all the detective would see is a glimpse of a cape before it would disappear by his sight.
We would assume the detective witnessed the criminal escaping but later the detective would say 'sorry, I only saw a cape, you tricked me into thinking the culprit was wearing it but (insert trick here). So the excuse you were with me when the criminal was escaping didn't work.'

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-22 at 18:22.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 18:30   Link #27238
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I'm not really that much into TvTropes but the Evil Overlord list and the assorted lists that it inspired are something I love madly.
I agree, I've had fun looking through that stuff. And indeed, a lot of it is stuff I wish antagonists would follow...

Quote:
The problem always rely on the objective viewpoint of the detective.
I think the thing can be read in a way that means 'the narrative MUST be honest about the detective: where he is, what he does, what he sees, what he hears, though the narrative can lie about everyone else'.

In short, to follow your example, the subjective narrative can't lie about Erika being there... because it would create a clash with Erika needing to have an objective viewpoint. However, as long as Erika can't observe what the subjective narrative proposes because... let's say it's happening behind her, you can have all the magic scenes you want.

At least this is how I interpret the 'objective viewpoint' of the detective.
Well, this isn't ever confirmed... Besides, this definition of yours applies to a specific Piece's viewpoint. And the story is being narrated from a completely different viewpoint, which we can confirm is not objective.

Quote:
Funny enough saying there was no objective viewpoint in all EP 5 can also mean that Erika was also something that was made up and that she actually was never witnessed by anyone in Rokenjima...
LOL, poor Erika, I've just denied her existence...

... and weren't there theories that assumed Erika never existed in Rokkenjima?
Someone willing to refresh my memory?
I think this theory is possible. In particular, if we follow this theory, then it could be said that there is no objective perspective for EP5. Therefore, absolutely nothing but the Red Truth can be trusted. Which makes the whole thing quite amusing.

However, I think that a few Reds can deny this. Namely,
As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES. If Erika does not possess a body, she cannot perform such an action. Furthermore, if there is someone acting like Erika, then it follows that when they are treated as "Furudo Erika," their perspective must be objective, and it will amount to the same thing as her being there.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 18:50   Link #27239
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Well, this isn't ever confirmed... Besides, this definition of yours applies to a specific Piece's viewpoint. And the story is being narrated from a completely different viewpoint, which we can confirm is not objective.
Yes, it's an interpretation, though it would fit with piece!Battler never being directly involved in magic scenes in EP 1-4 unless he's dead/drunk.

Otherwise all Ep 1-4 would have to do is saying that the scene was, for example, told by Maria's point of view (after all she's the 'author' of the message bottles).

I personally prefer to think that there's another explanation for which Erika never noticed that Shannon and Kanon weren't there that 'the scene is under a subjective viewpoint and, due to this, Erika can see magic'... though the idea that Yasu is hidden behind the others and talk with two voices isn't really of my tastes... but yes, I guess it would have been odd for the readers if, in such a moment one of the two were to be absent so the trick is more for us than for Erika (who's busy framing Natsuhi and might have been so focused on it that she wouldn't notice an elephant entering in the room...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I think this theory is possible. In particular, if we follow this theory, then it could be said that there is no objective perspective for EP5. Therefore, absolutely nothing but the Red Truth can be trusted. Which makes the whole thing quite amusing.

However, I think that a few Reds can deny this. Namely,
As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES. If Erika does not possess a body, she cannot perform such an action. Furthermore, if there is someone acting like Erika, then it follows that when they are treated as "Furudo Erika," their perspective must be objective, and it will amount to the same thing as her being there.
Well, personally I think that Erika existed and she wasn't... let's say Battler's imaginary friend, so I'm not even going to try and think if there's a way to work around the various red about Erika... though the idea of Erika not existing is interesting...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-01-22, 18:55   Link #27240
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I'm curious if jjblue and Toku are aware of the old Ghost!Erika and ErikaBall theories.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.