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Old 2012-01-26, 10:33   Link #27321
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But Erika controls her Piece. She moves it around, makes it do things, and can even make moves without informing a Gamemaster. This implies that she can totally control and see through the senses of her character as if she WERE her character. So if that's the case, shouldn't Erika see things in the Parlor as they REALLY are? If Kanon's there, that causes some errors. If he's NOT there, why doesn't she speak up?
Exactly. And if she doesn't control her piece, why hasn't she complained about it when she was told she does?
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Whoa-za ... are you responding to a specific theory, or every one out there? Part of why I support Kanon having a body is that it means Erika's Mary-Sue powers worked EXACTLY as we were told, and she gets to still be as intelligent and anal retentive about details as we're told she is.
That wasn't directed at you. I was just taking the point to its logical extreme. If Erika's powers don't work the way she's been told they do, there's absolutely no way to talk around the fact that she was told they work a certain way. That, at least, is inescapable; both Erika and Battler were informed that Erika could do x, y, and z. Whether Erika actually can or not doesn't matter; she was told she can, and that means the statement's truth can be determined.

Should we assume Erika's abilities work as described to her and Battler, then any explanation we offer for the various issues in ep5 where Erika "should have" observed someone or something require a specific explanation with textual evidence that shows that Erika was deceived. We can speculate until we're blue in the face as to how Erika "might have" been deceived, but it's worthless; we need something explicit, like the way people interfered with Erika and didn't give her time to get a good look at the "corpses" in ep5, or the obvious way Beatrice beat her on the Logic Error. These are supportable cases of Erika's perceptions either being interfered with or her conclusions being faulty based on accurate observations. If we can't at least provide that much evidence, anything we'd guess about how she "might've" perceived a situation is so much intellectual wankery.

If we assume Erika's powers are not subject to the rules that were presented to her, we have no other choice but to conclude that Bern, Lambda, and Battler himself (in ep6 at least) are liars. Liars who have as their objective the intentional deception of Erika for reasons which are not advanced in the text. I would be fascinated to know why someone like Erika was conjured into being, deceived wholly about her situation and the abilities she has to navigate that situation, toyed with, trolled with false successes, and killed off ignobly. Granted, this does sort of square with my claims from before about Sorcerer BATTLER being the exact same kind of bored asshole that all the other higher-level witches are, but I don't think it was Ryukishi's intention that we see BATTLER as a villain.
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Old 2012-01-26, 14:29   Link #27322
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I think Erika is just kind of a "what if" insert character. The things she does on the Game Board that aren't depicted in the Game Board narrative are just made up on the spot in the Meta-World. As long as what she makes up is possible for a human, the Game Master must accept it (this isn't a rule per se, it's just that the GM would have no logical ground to deny it).

The most clear example of this is Erika in EP6 when she kills off all the First Twilight fakers. Since we learned from EP8 that the GM knows everything that happens on the Game Board (with the exception of things done by a second Game Master), BATTLER should have known everything Erika's Piece was doing the moment it happened. This basically leaves us with these two options:
  • Erika assumes incorrectly that she can take actions with her Piece without BATTLER's awareness, and BATTLER knows this and plays the fool. I don't like this explanation, mostly because I don't think Erika would make such an assumption
  • Retroactive writing-in: In the context of the Meta-World, Erika's Piece had not killed anyone on the Game Board until the moment Erika said she did. Thus nothing actually happened without BATTLER's immediate awareness.
If you apply this also to the trial of EP5 then Bernkastel providing Reds and Lambdadelta "acknowledging" Erika's powers makes a lot more sense. This means that what's going on in the Meta-World as the Games progress is really a fight for control of the narrative of the given Game Boards.

So what does this mean for Piece-Erika's observational powers? These powers are not used passively; their effects are entirely made up from a Meta-World context. They are a tool for the Player to enforce their own narrative; a way for the human side to actually make the story take on certain truths that the witch's side can't reject or evade. Otherwise no matter what the human side says that they saw or did, the witch could just say they saw it wrong or didn't do what they thought they did.

So, in sum, Erika's Detective Authority powers and natural observational abilities do not exist to ensure Meta-Erika knows what her Piece sees. They exist as a tool to control the Game Board narrative from the Meta-World, not to understand it. Incidentally, trying to control rather than understand is probably Erika's fundamental mistake.
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Old 2012-01-26, 16:32   Link #27323
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
...
I'd say that this is one of the best and most fitting theories we have for the all Chiru arcs as a whole. This makes a lot of sense for EP5, EP6 and EP8.

We know that 'control' of the board came up in EP8 with the goats. And this really seems to fit the spirit of Erika's Detective Authority being introduced at all.

Good post, Wanderer.
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Old 2012-01-26, 17:19   Link #27324
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Yeah, it's a shame that there's really almost nothing that is able to directly support it, and it still doesn't address the actual problem, and all of that. But aside from being pure speculation with little practical value, I suppose it's pretty useful.

I mean, if you're telling Erika that she operates a certain way, but actually she's more like a role-playing game player whose actions only manifest when she takes an active interest in doing so, then you still run into the problem that she's being fed information by SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE. If this information is permitted to mislead her as long as she doesn't purposely invoke the powers that are supposed to prevent her from being misled, then you've changed the game to "How subtly can we lie to Erika such that she won't think to actually do anything, even though she could and probably would just do it for everything because that's what her character is like?"

Are you incapable of understanding how allowing that level of deception means that Erika was always playing against a stacked deck? And that putting her in that situation means that everyone who knew the game was rigged is complicit in her mental torture, including the so-called good guys? Or is this just another example of people tolerating evil because it's cool?
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Old 2012-01-26, 18:07   Link #27325
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Not once does Erika even try to figure out the truth. All she ever cared about was forcing people to accept her version of the truth, or trapping Battler in the logic error.

So even if the game was rigged it doesn't matter, because she was trying to play an entirely different game.
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Old 2012-01-26, 18:15   Link #27326
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That's not really true, though. She tried pretty damn hard to expose the truth in EP8, and on top of that, her theories were consistent with the facts available to her. Just because she was trying to make people buy into a false truth doesn't change that she, personally, upheld that truth as what she believed to be correct.
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Old 2012-01-26, 18:17   Link #27327
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Okay... since I think among us there are more than one theories about why Erika didn't see Kanon here's mine.

This is my theory/understanding about how the gameboard work.
Note that Umineko never states clearly how it works so I guess it becomes a catbox open to more than one interpretation.
If you've different ones I'll be happy to hear them.

Oh and the following spoilercut are merely so that this post won't be too long.
Although they contain references to the games they're mostly a list of theories.

Spoiler for How the gameboard work:


The player is either supposed to know or guess the overmentioned rules... though he can be also told about them if he/she has a witch on his/her side who's feeling generous.

How, according to this, the detective's reliable perspective work.

Spoiler for Detective's reliable perspective:


Scenes where Shannon and Kanon are in the same place as Erika and how everything I theorized applies to them.

Spoiler for Scenes where Shannon and Kanon:


Note that to use Umineko's words all the overmentioned solutions are:

Quote:
... an unfair trick......
If it was a sleight of hand, it'd just be a cheap one.
If it was a mystery, ...it'd just be cheating......
However, in this witch's game, it's a legitimate......'logic trick'...
So the solutions doesn't fit a mystery, merely a logic trick.
I guess I'm not good enough to find a solution for a mystery, just for a logic trick so, if you've a theory for a mystery solution, please share it.
Note that if there's no solution fitting for a mystery, even through finding the solution for the logic trick was fun, I'm disappointed as I prefer mystery to logic tricks.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-26 at 20:49.
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Old 2012-01-26, 20:34   Link #27328
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Unrelated to the current discussion, I've been rereading the whole story since I got the PS3 games, and...

Spoiler for Screenshot from EP1:

Damn, that was just lying out there in the open, wasn't it?
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Old 2012-01-27, 01:26   Link #27329
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean, if you're telling Erika that she operates a certain way, but actually she's more like a role-playing game player whose actions only manifest when she takes an active interest in doing so, then you still run into the problem that she's being fed information by SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE.
It's not like Lambda made some promise about Erika's powers. It was Erika and Bern that decided that Erika had these powers. Lambda just acknowledged them whenever Erika presented (made up) evidence using those powers. Why should Lambda give Erika more information than she has to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If this information is permitted to mislead her as long as she doesn't purposely invoke the powers that are supposed to prevent her from being misled, then you've changed the game to "How subtly can we lie to Erika such that she won't think to actually do anything, even though she could and probably would just do it for everything because that's what her character is like?"
You're arguing that it's unfair to subtly lie to someone? In Umineko?

And you're just wrong about Erika asking every question. She was fooled by Battler's "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" when she could have asked more questions but did not. It doesn't matter what the theory is, that happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Quote:
... an unfair trick......
If it was a sleight of hand, it'd just be a cheap one.
If it was a mystery, ...it'd just be cheating......
However, in this witch's game, it's a legitimate......'logic trick'...
Interesting when you also look at that last Red from Erika at the end of EP6:

Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!


So hmm? Detectives are unwelcome on Rokkenjima? It's not a solvable Mystery? It's interesting because we can actually suppose that Erika had even guessed ShKanon but could not attack it because it wasn't a Mystery solution. This would mean that since she was built as a "detective" she was doomed from her inception.

It fits perfectly with Toku's theory from a couple pages back. Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Old 2012-01-27, 02:11   Link #27330
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Quote:
It's not like Lambda made some promise about Erika's powers. It was Erika and Bern that decided that Erika had these powers. Lambda just acknowledged them whenever Erika presented (made up) evidence using those powers. Why should Lambda give Erika more information than she has to?
There's a difference between providing partial information and LYING. Moreover, there is a difference between lying about the Gameboard and lying about the rules of the fucking game.

Quote:
You're arguing that it's unfair to subtly lie to someone? In Umineko?
The method, degree, and manner in which you're suggesting Erika has been deceived has never happened at any other point in the story, and there are no hints regarding it. Also, under your theory, Battler and Beatrice are complicit in lying to, and deceiving Erika for no other reason than to torture her for the lulz. They're supposed to be our heroes, wtf.

Quote:
And you're just wrong about Erika asking every question. She was fooled by Battler's "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" when she could have asked more questions but did not. It doesn't matter what the theory is, that happened.
She did press the issue, though. It roused her suspicion, and she did ask some questions. She didn't ask the right questions, but it's better than just taking things for granted like you're suggesting she did with the Parlor Scene.

You are, as you do SO OFTEN, using unsupported ideas and personal biases to support other unsupported theories and biases. It's a circlejerk where you can never be proven wrong because your standards are arbitrary depending on how much you like an idea. You latch onto an idea you like and work backwards from it instead of the other way around.

Quote:
So hmm? Detectives are unwelcome on Rokkenjima? It's not a solvable Mystery? It's interesting because we can actually suppose that Erika had even guessed ShKanon but could not attack it because it wasn't a Mystery solution. This would mean that since she was built as a "detective" she was doomed from her inception.
I think you're making a silly assumption here. Erika is literally uninvited, she crashed here from shipwreck both times she appeared, and she was never a piece in Beatrice's games. Her Detective status has nothing to do with it other than the fact that she's taking that station away from Battler.
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Old 2012-01-27, 02:33   Link #27331
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All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.
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Old 2012-01-27, 03:43   Link #27332
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Damn, that was just lying out there in the open, wasn't it?
Yeah, alot of EP1-4 read that way after reading Chiru.

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

I could believe it more fully if the Ushiromiya family weren't so damn small. Yeah, I knoe 18 characters was a lot to absorb at the beginning, but 13 family members, 5 of whom are children (I include George in this group only because the plot itself keeps insisting he does) and 3 of whom aren't blood related, isn't that big of a clan, and the political situation of the household, while still certainly ... notable, isn't as grand as it's described to be.

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All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.
A cold, dank place of no life, that involved clipping apart your body piece by piece, and can only be escaped by finding some poor sap willing to take your place in the despair?

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-01-27 at 11:39. Reason: spelling
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Old 2012-01-27, 09:55   Link #27333
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This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.
Unfortunately a lot of what we're told doesn't match what we're shown in Umineko. Either the fiction characters are not like their real counterparts, or public perception of the family was not accurate to how they actually behaved, or maybe the story is just inconsistent and Ryukishi wrote that the family was male-dominated and kind of forgot that, in any generation other than Kinzo's, that wasn't actually true.

Krauss is shown to have a close supportive relationship with Natsuhi. Eva takes the lead in her relationship with Hideyoshi. Kyrie is Rudolf's right hand in business matters. And Rosa is a single businesswoman. Jessica is the designated head, George's love (gag me) is suggested by Ryukishi to be genuine devotion, Battler appears to have no belief of that sort with respect to women, and Maria is friends with a super-powerful witch.

Where, exactly, this family is demonstrably male-dominated is not clear to me, other than Kinzo being kind of a dick to Eva. And he makes fun of Krauss more than he ever does her.
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All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.
That's sick dude, she's... wait, how old is Erika supposed to be again? 16? Older? She talks like she's older in that one scene.
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A cold, dank place of no life, that involved clipping apart your body piece by piece, and can only be escaped by finding some poor sap willing to take your place in the despair?
Well, apparently it's easily escapable by dumping her.
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Old 2012-01-27, 13:41   Link #27334
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That's sick dude, she's... wait, how old is Erika supposed to be again? 16? Older? She talks like she's older in that one scene.
She's supposed to be 14.
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Old 2012-01-27, 14:30   Link #27335
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@Renall and Aura: I'm sorry, I just can't understand this massive-scale trick that you two keep insisting is being played on Erika. One of the reasons why I can't is that I keep seeing quotes like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's a difference between providing partial information and LYING. Moreover, there is a difference between lying about the Gameboard and lying about the rules of the fucking game.
Where nothing is really explained in any detail, only in vague terms... And I'm not sure exactly what the meaning behind it is. In particular, can you give me specific examples of these horrible lies?

Some say Lambda did guarantee that Erika has a 100% certain perspective, others don't seem to agree... I don't think any of us are on the same page at all, and I have no idea which ones are right.

About all I can gather is that, if it is at all possible to play any kind of trick whatsoever on Piece!Erika's (and by extension Meta!Erika's) perspective, then regardless of whether or not it's even an actual lie, and regardless of whether or not it would be possible to realistically play this trick on other humans in real life, then it is some kind of terrible conspiracy which even the protagonists are in on.

Quote:
The method, degree, and manner in which you're suggesting Erika has been deceived has never happened at any other point in the story, and there are no hints regarding it. Also, under your theory, Battler and Beatrice are complicit in lying to, and deceiving Erika for no other reason than to torture her for the lulz. They're supposed to be our heroes, wtf.
Which is another thing I wonder about. When did everybody forget all the cruel stuff that Beatrice (and by extension Yasuda) has done? You didn't gloss over this just because she's suddenly being portrayed as a protagonist, right? Well, it's true that it's possible to say that she's actually (largely) innocent in Prime, if in fact Prime exists, but...
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Old 2012-01-27, 15:42   Link #27336
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Are you incapable of understanding how allowing that level of deception means that Erika was always playing against a stacked deck? And that putting her in that situation means that everyone who knew the game was rigged is complicit in her mental torture, including the so-called good guys? Or is this just another example of people tolerating evil because it's cool?
I'll probably sound cold but I don't get why you seem to be so upset about Erika being subjected to mental torture.

Every player gets his share of mental torture, think at Battler who, at first, doesn't even understand his family are nothing else but pieces and feel pain each time one of them dies and he's also asked to suspect them and didn't even know that magic scenes might have never happened and believed he had to give a rational explanation for 'towers showing up in the garden' or Ange who gets destroyed/killed so horribly in EP 4.

If this wasn't bad enough every piece gets killed, betrayed, scared to death, trampled over and Erika, before anything else, is a piece.

You sounds like you were expecting Erika should get a nice treatment, despite everything in the game implied Lambda and most of all Bern (who's likely the one who fed her info about her abilities) could care less about Erika.

The game of the witches IS a sadic game. You should get upset about the game, not just about Erika.

Erika knows she's a piece and that witches are only having fun with her, she knows that Lambda doesn't plan to lose easily and will try to trick her and she knows Bern can do horrible things to her.

It's a given they aren't trustworthy.

It's also a given no one couldn't play what you seem to consider a 'fair game' without handing the player the solution, or making the game way too easy and it's made clear that Battler couldn't allow himself the luxury of losing.

Evil is never cool but the game of the witches is like a bullfighting.

We can either say bullfighting is evil or watch it and accept the bull will be killed but feeling sorry for a single bull among the many that are killed during the various fights doesn't really feel logical, nor to expect the torero won't kill that specific bull and call him evil when he does.

Oh, and if someone cares I find bullfighting evil. Sorry to all the bullfighting fans.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yeah, alot of EP1-4 read that way after reading Chiru.

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

I could believe it more fully if the Ushiromiya family weren't so damn small. Yeah, I knoe 18 characters was a lot to absorb at the beginning, but 13 family members, 5 of whom are children (I include George in this group only because the plot itself keeps insisting he does) and 3 of whom aren't blood related, isn't that big of a clan, and the political situation of the household, while still certainly ... notable, isn't as grand as it's described to be.
Well, there's also the seating arrangement and the way Kinzo spoke with Natsuhi when she couldn't have a baby.
Eva also complained about Jessica being the heir, though she also regretted it because she realized she was discriminating Jessica in the same way as she had been when younger.
Though that sentence could be either due to Yasu's perception or due to how the Ushiromiya family was perceived by outsiders or both (I don't really remember in which game it came up).

Though I'll say Kinzo's kids aren't really thinking that about women.
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Old 2012-01-27, 16:16   Link #27337
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'll probably sound cold but I don't get why you seem to be so upset about Erika being subjected to mental torture.

Every player gets his share of mental torture, think at Battler who, at first, doesn't even understand his family are nothing else but pieces and feel pain each time one of them dies and he's also asked to suspect them and didn't even know that magic scenes might have never happened and believed he had to give a rational explanation for 'towers showing up in the garden' or Ange who gets destroyed/killed so horribly in EP 4.

If this wasn't bad enough every piece gets killed, betrayed, scared to death, trampled over and Erika, before anything else, is a piece.
There is a significant, and critical difference between Battler's treatment and Erika's: Battler was never purposefully misled to his own detriment (it's actually better that he had sympathy for the pieces, as that was the right response to begin with), and Beatrice did not enjoy having to torment him.

By contrast, we must assume that, at the very least, everyone complicit in Erika's deception and torture (under this theory) is indifferent to her. This makes absolutely no sense given what we know about BATTLER and Beatrice's characterization. Beatrice does not like deceiving people unnecessarily, so short of the Logic Error, there is no reason for her to do that to Erika (so she does have some excuse, unlike the others). BATTLER would be entirely sympathetic to Erika's position even if he found her methods deplorable... but her methods are deplorable because she believes she's playing a particular game with particular rules. Who knows if her perspective might shift if she knew otherwise?

And Bern and Lambda... well, you have to pretty much assume they're just messing with her for fun. And that's pretty messed up. It was messed up when they did it to Battler too.
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Old 2012-01-27, 16:52   Link #27338
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She's supposed to be 14.
There is no detail about her exact age. Remember that she is "described" as having a middle school girl appearance, but that's that.
She potentially can be 16 years old.
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Old 2012-01-27, 16:55   Link #27339
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There is a significant, and critical difference between Battler's treatment and Erika's: Battler was never purposefully misled to his own detriment (it's actually better that he had sympathy for the pieces, as that was the right response to begin with), and Beatrice did not enjoy having to torment him.

By contrast, we must assume that, at the very least, everyone complicit in Erika's deception and torture (under this theory) is indifferent to her. This makes absolutely no sense given what we know about BATTLER and Beatrice's characterization. Beatrice does not like deceiving people unnecessarily, so short of the Logic Error, there is no reason for her to do that to Erika (so she does have some excuse, unlike the others). BATTLER would be entirely sympathetic to Erika's position even if he found her methods deplorable... but her methods are deplorable because she believes she's playing a particular game with particular rules. Who knows if her perspective might shift if she knew otherwise?
The fact he has simpathy for the pieces and believed them to be real people instead than pieces causes him to:
- waste a lot of time trying to prove there's a 19 person
- believe in everything the pieces say for quite a lot of time
- feel emotional pain when they die
- stop reasoning in EP 2 because he found too painful to suspect one of them

While the first 2 'merely' hamper his reasoning the last 2 definitely constitute emotional torture.
Plus he was also mislead into thinking that, if he were to solve the game, he and his family would be let free to leave the island. We know this is not going to happen.

And should we go into the Kanon and Shannon are dead thing?

The only advantage Battler has compared to Erika is that, in the end, Beato wanted Battler to win.

Battler can't wish for Erika to win, nor can let her do so and he can't even avoid the fight enterely. He needs her to show his understanding Beato's game and he needs to defeat her to protect Beato's game.

Maybe he felt sorry for her... but it's unlikely he could allow himself the luxury of helping her.

Also, due to Erika's condition as Bern's piece and due to Bern's will of... well, ruining Beato's game, it's unlikely Erika will be allowed to find a solution that will respect the game.

So really, why should battler make easy for Erika to win?
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Old 2012-01-27, 17:19   Link #27340
LyricalAura
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.
That's the case for the modern crop of children, but Kinzo is only the most recent family head, and you have to consider that there was a huge main family before he took over. I don't think he invented the family ranking system himself; he's probably just perpetuating traditions that he grew up with.

Come to think of it, Yasu pretty much grew up in the Ushiromiya household, so she was exposed to this poisonous atmosphere for her whole childhood too. Considering the kind of complexes the adults developed growing up, it's pretty understandable that she would freak out after being told it was impossible for her to have children. Especially since she had self-worth issues from the beginning.
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