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Old 2012-01-29, 17:11   Link #27401
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
So? Plot holes usually are a sign of the author fucking up. That doesn't mean they don't happen. Ryukishi is happen and Umineko DOES have legitimate flaws. If this is one of them, fine.

Indeed. So it's probably a plot hole.
I guess. Well, for the sake of this argument though, we should probably assume that a solution is possible. Because unless we assume that, we might as well just stop arguing right here and now.

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I never really made a 'case' of "A solution is possible." Whether there is one doesn't change that the one you're proposing (Erika being unreliable) doesn't work.

It's in the novel, brah. Every relevant character supports it's existence and treats it as if it's true. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise, because "Erika has a perfectly reliable perspective" is the default.
I wasn't saying that Erika's perspective is unreliable. I was just questioning what the exact definition of "Erika's reliable perspective" is.

It's pretty much irrelevant now, but when I was saying that you made a case of "a solution is possible" I was referring to your argument that "there is a solution we just haven't found yet."

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Or Kanon is just standing behind Gohda. Which, while stupid, satisfies everything.
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Not at all. Either The fingers are Shannon's/Yasu's, or 'Kanon's fingers' are a prop on a stick that's sticking out of Gohda's back pocket.

Not at all. I don't think you realize what Erika's perspective is supposed to entail. It's perfectly valid for her to, say, mistake a mannequin behind a curtain as a real person until the curtain's pulled back. The Detective is allowed to make false conclusions, so long as the 'data' is completely accurate. So things like hallucinations or mirages are right out.

I'm not seeing what the problem is. The Detective's Authority was described to us when the concept was introduced. But like I said above, things like making honest mistakes so long as the data is correct is a legitimate Mystery trick. What Renall and I was arguing against was something along the lines of "Erika saw Kanon but Kanon wasn't there; She saw Kanon because she expected Kanon to be there so the Gameboard shapeshifted" or some stupid bullshit. I don't even remember.
Now we're getting somewhere.

My theory is basically saying this:

Erika's sight was obstructed by a blindfold because of a game she was playing. All of the data she received was absolutely 100% correct, but she mistook it for something else that was similar. Even if she's not allowed to mistake something for something else, I could say that Piece!Yasuda is the only one voicing both Shannon and Kanon in the game, so she's not actually making a mistake at all, since they were always voiced by her.

It's implied that Piece!Battler's narration contains falsehoods since he saw both Shannon and Kanon at the same time. And while there is nothing in any episode to lead us to believe that Kanon has a body in EP5, there are plenty of things which lead us to believe that there are two different stories being told at the same time by the GM, and that these stories contain plenty of differences. Our Confessions, in particular, pretty much says outright that this is how it is. The Mystery side of the story is the inner logic of the game board, it's what's really happening. However, the Player can only see this side of the story through the eyes of the Detective Piece, and outside of that Piece's range of observation, any number of illusions can be said to be happening. Those illusions are the Fantasy side of the story.

Therefore, it should be perfectly valid for me to say that what we saw through Piece!Battler's eyes was the Fantasy side of the story, and that the Mystery side is not necessarily like that. As long as certain key elements (like the fact that they all introduced themselves to each other in that scene) remain the same, it should be alright to theorize that some things were different on the Mystery side, even if the Player (Meta!Bern/Meta!Erika) is present when the GM (Meta!Lambda) is telling lies to a 3rd party (Meta!Battler, who was not the Player at this point in time). In this scene, Meta!Lambda has no obligation to show Meta!Battler the perspective of Piece!Erika, and it is well within her rights to show him some falsehood through the eyes of a non-Detective Piece, as long as the Player has had full access to the perspective of the Detective Piece. Lambda was not calling attention to ShKanon in the Fantasy side, and we could easily say that she was simply trying to speed things up since this was just the second telling of the story.

According to my theory, Meta!Erika and Meta!Bern have full access to Piece!Erika's perspective on the Mystery side of the story, and are not being fed a single falsehood with regard to that particular perspective. Therefore, it does not invalidate Erika's reliable perspective at all.

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I think that's what we NECESSARILY have to do. If, say, "Kanon was behind Gohda" is the excuse being given, and it's a falsehood, but there's a trick that makes Erika not investigate, then it works. Maybe Shannon is a fucking ventriloquist and she threw her voice behind Gohda and like coughed or made a comment or something because she's already some bullshit ultra-ninja master of disguise so why not.
The idea that "all Erika saw of Kanon in this scene is bunny ears behind Gohda's head" doesn't work for me because she was already set on playing detective, so she wanted to properly identify everyone there. Unless there's some non-suspicious reason she was given on why she wasn't allowed to see Kanon plainly, she should find this odd.

The idea that Piece!Yasuda changed at least once without Piece!Erika noticing it is also odd to me, since her senses are well above average. We're not talking about some minor change in appearance here, because Piece!Yasuda is putting on completely different clothes, changing her hairstyle, and more.

The idea that Piece!Yasuda is a ventriloquist also doesn't really work well with me because we have no reason to believe that she would be one. On the contrary, we have plenty of reason to believe that she's skilled at changing her voice. And even if she was a ventriloquist, that doesn't give us a non-suspicious reason for why Piece!Erika shouldn't be allowed to see Kanon. On the contrary, if she's not allowed to see anyone because she's willingly playing a game that requires her to be blindfolded, that shouldn't cause her to find the idea of not seeing Shannon or Kanon suspicious at all.
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Old 2012-01-29, 17:11   Link #27402
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Originally Posted by Wanderer
As what? Please realize that my contention is not that Erika misunderstood what Detective's Authority is, but that you misunderstand it.

What Detective's Authority is, aside from an ability to "view all crime scenes" and to "perform perfect autopsies", is completely unexplained. Your and Renall's entire argument is founded on beliefs about what this unexplained portion is, but you always evade outlining these beliefs or why you believe them.
Except, that's not the case at all.

For one thing, there's Knox's Decalogue, which Beato's gameboard follows, and Dlanor uses Battler's former Detective status to combat the claim that he hallucinated Kinzo out in the rain.

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Right. You don't even know what you're arguing against.
I'm sorry I can't recall all the exact details of something that was last explained almost ten pages ago. The entire conversation got sidetracked like a hundred times by different tangents.

How about you stop being a dick every time you talk to me? Every time I try and be nice to me and make up you have to waltz in and make personal jabs.

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Erika's sight was obstructed by a blindfold. All of the data she received was absolutely 100% correct, but she mistook it for something else that was similar. Even if she's not allowed to mistake something for something else, I could say that Piece!Yasuda is the only one voicing both Shannon and Kanon in the game, so she's not actually making a mistake at all, since they were always voiced by her.
I'm sorry, that's too ridiculous. Why wouldn't Erika take off the blindfold? And how could she not notice it was on her face?

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The idea that Piece!Yasuda is a ventriloquist also doesn't really work well with me because we have no reason to believe that she would be one. On the contrary, we have plenty of reason to believe that she's skilled at changing her voice. And even if she was a ventriloquist, that doesn't give us a non-suspicious reason for why Piece!Erika shouldn't be allowed to see Kanon. On the contrary, if she's not allowed to see anyone because she's willingly playing a game that requires her to be blindfolded, that shouldn't cause her to find the idea of not seeing Shannon or Kanon suspicious at all.
Why would she be playing such a game? Also There is evidence for Yasuda being a ventriloquist. Mind you, it comes from Episode Seven. In Jessica's flashback, it seems to indicate that Yasuda is making her voice project from the doll before she runs off with it.
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Old 2012-01-29, 17:20   Link #27403
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Not at all. Either The fingers are Shannon's/Yasu's, or 'Kanon's fingers' are a prop on a stick that's sticking out of Gohda's back pocket.
Knox's 4th
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

Can you show an example for such a... "device"?

And even if you could, there is still the problem:
Knox's 8th
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Such a device was never shown to the detective, so it cannot be used to create that theory.



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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Maybe Shannon is a fucking ventriloquist and she threw her voice behind Gohda and like coughed or made a comment or something because she's already some bullshit ultra-ninja master of disguise so why not.
Ironicly there are even many hints for that theory in EP5. He/She is an expert in changing his/her voice. After all for years NO ONE realized, that Kanon and Shannon are the same person. And think back about the scene in EP8 where they deceived Erika in the golden land... if that was not done to indicate back to this parlor scene and them tricking Erika overall, then i really don't get the meaning of that EP8 scene at all. After all they could make Erika think that Battler and Lambda are present, although they are not. At least for some time...
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Old 2012-01-29, 17:52   Link #27404
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm sorry, that's too ridiculous. Why wouldn't Erika take off the blindfold? And how could she not notice it was on her face?

Why would she be playing such a game?
I explained the full details of my theory when I first posted it, but for the sake of this particular argument, I simply gave a summarized version of what was actually happening.

Here it is again.

First off, the unexpected guest is a young girl. As we've already established, she looks like she's 14 or something. So it might have been decided that a strict and formal introduction is unsuitable and would make her feel unwelcome. So they decided to play a game instead. (note that Rosa herself said something like "won't that just make her feel unwelcome?" in the scene Meta!Lambda showed to Meta!Battler, which I'll use as a clue to this)

At any rate, it's a very simple game. In this game, Erika is the detective, and she can question people as much as she wants. Her objective is to reason out everyone's identities correctly. However, it wouldn't even be a challenge if she could look at everyone, so she puts on a blindfold.

Naturally, the premise of this game is such that Erika would instantly agree to its terms, upon being challenged. After all, more than anything else, she is the detective.

Most importantly, this game allows Yasuda to switch between Kanon and Shannon in front of the guest, without needing to change her appearance. And we know that Yasuda has all the motivation in the world to setup a game like this. One of the things she wants most is for everyone to acknowledge her personas as people, but the family members already know the truth and are only being bribed (supported by Our Confessions). Therefore, her objective is to trick Erika into believing that both Shannon and Kanon exist at the same time. So she could even be the real mastermind behind this game.

Because Piece!Yasuda should be plenty skilled at changing her voice to match Shannon or Kanon, it follows that she should easily be able to trick Erika under these circumstances. It wouldn't require a miracle for her to pull it off, unlike many other theories.


In other words, according to my theory, she knew that she was blindfolded and participated anyway. Basically, this game was how everyone was actually introduced to each other. She would probably see this as undertaking an additional challenge as the detective, in order to make things more interesting.

And, in exchange for temporarily sealing her vision, it allows her an opportunity to question all of the Pieces controlled by the GM to collect clues and such.

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Also There is evidence for Yasuda being a ventriloquist. Mind you, it comes from Episode Seven. In Jessica's flashback, it seems to indicate that Yasuda is making her voice project from the doll before she runs off with it.
Alright, I guess. But my point still stands that if she's only allowed to hear Kanon but not allowed to see him, when she can see everyone else, she should find this strange, because she was already intent on playing detective.
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Old 2012-01-29, 18:18   Link #27405
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Knox's 4th
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
Can you show an example for such a... "device"?
It's a fake hand on a stick, dude.

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And even if you could, there is still the problem:
Knox's 8th
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Such a device was never shown to the detective, so it cannot be used to create that theory.
I could easily argue that since Kanon's status isn't relevant to the 'case', it's not really bound by Knox's 8th, But instead I'll just point out that we know atleast one large doll exists on Rokkenjima; large enough that it's treated as an idol for Beatrice. Procuring such a fake arm would be trivially easy.

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At any rate, it's a very simple game. In this game, Erika is the detective, and she can question people as much as she wants. Her objective is to reason out everyone's identities correctly. However, it wouldn't even be a challenge if she could look at everyone, so she puts on a blindfold.
How does this get around the reliable viewpoint thing?

Though even if I don't agree with the theory it's fucking awesome for laugh value and should be on TVTropes.

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Alright, I guess. But my point still stands that if she's only allowed to hear Kanon but not allowed to see him, when she can see everyone else, she should find this strange, because she was already intent on playing detective.
Yea, but there's just no nice way to resolve the problem.
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Old 2012-01-29, 18:29   Link #27406
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
How does this get around the reliable viewpoint thing?
Her field of observation, with regard to all of her senses, is perfectly accurate. However, if we allow Erika's vision to be obstructed by Gohda, we can definitely allow her vision to be obstructed by a blindfold temporarily. Therefore, aside from what's happening right in front of her, her vision won't be good enough to detect it.

The point is that none of her other senses were obstructed. And even if her vision is obstructed, she is not being fed any falsehoods.

If we can work around the fact that "she should be able to see Kanon" it would become exponentially easier to hide the fact that Kanon doesn't possess a human body from Erika. That's the reason for my theory.

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Though even if I don't agree with the theory it's fucking awesome for laugh value and should be on TVTropes.
Thanks. I personally think that, if Lambda actually did do something like this, then we were missing out by seeing a short introduction instead of, for example, Rosa staging her interpretation of Eva in front of a blindfolded Erika, and Erika calling her out on it.

She probably did catch most of them for acting, due to how sharp her senses are. My theory only requires her to not catch Kanon and Shannon as being an act.

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Yea, but there's just no nice way to resolve the problem.
That's what I was trying to resolve with my theory.
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Old 2012-01-29, 18:40   Link #27407
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Her field of observation, with regard to all of her senses, is perfectly accurate. However, if we allow Erika's vision to be obstructed by Gohda, we can definitely allow her vision to be obstructed by a blindfold temporarily. Therefore, aside from what's happening right in front of her, her vision won't be good enough to detect it.
But wait a minute, does Meta-Erika know about the blindfold? Why doesn't she mention it? How does she 'see' things (and she does 'see' things) if she's wearing a blind fold? Wearing a blindfold and Gohda standing infront of something aren't equivocal, because the blindfold completely removes her sense of sight. Wearing blindfold doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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Old 2012-01-29, 18:50   Link #27408
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But wait a minute, does Meta-Erika know about the blindfold? Why doesn't she mention it? How does she 'see' things (and she does 'see' things) if she's wearing a blind fold? Wearing a blindfold and Gohda standing infront of something aren't equivocal, because the blindfold completely removes her sense of sight. Wearing blindfold doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
1. She does know about it, of course.

2. She could have mentioned it the first time the scene was shown. All we were shown was a retelling, and Meta!Erika wasn't in that particular part of the Meta World at that point in time for whatever reason. There is no need for Meta!Erika to mention something like this long after it already happened, and especially when she's not around to mention it.

3. She's only wearing a blindfold for the duration of this little game in the Parlor. It's just a different interpretation of the Parlor scene. In other words, she can see whatever she wants before and after this game happens. On the Fantasy side, what Piece!Erika saw and did was just what Piece!Battler said she saw and did. In essence, (according to my theory) during the retelling only, Lambda is lying to Meta!Battler by showing him Piece!Battler's made-up perspective, in order to speed things up and because she's a troll. And Bern doesn't say anything because she's busy laughing at how incompetent Meta!Battler is.

4. The point is that, if Gohda can obstruct her vision, then her vision can be obstructed. And I was able to provide all the reasons and motivations for her to wear a blindfold, for the duration of this little game.

Last edited by Toku; 2012-01-29 at 19:17.
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Old 2012-01-29, 19:28   Link #27409
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2. She could have mentioned it the first time the scene was shown. All we were shown was a retelling, and Meta!Erika wasn't in that particular part of the Meta World at that point in time for whatever reason. There is no need for Meta!Erika to mention something like this long after it already happened, and especially when she's not around to mention it.
Why wasn't it mentioned for Battler during the replay?

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3. She's only wearing a blindfold for the duration of this little game in the Parlor. It's just a different interpretation of the Parlor scene. In other words, she can see whatever she wants before and after this game happens. On the Fantasy side, what Piece!Erika saw and did was just what Piece!Battler said she saw and did. In essence, (according to my theory) during the retelling only, Lambda is lying to Meta!Battler by showing him Piece!Battler's made-up perspective, in order to speed things up and because she's a troll. And Bern doesn't say anything because she's busy laughing at how incompetent Meta!Battler is.
But why do so?

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4. The point is that, if Gohda can obstruct her vision, then her vision can be obstructed. And I was able to provide all the reasons and motivations for her to wear a blindfold, for the duration of this little game.
But why would she agree to being blindfolded? If she's only being blindfolded during the Parlor scene then WHAT'S THE POINT? Is she playing Pin-The-Tail-On-The-Natsuhi? What challenge is added if she already formulated her ideas and is announcing her proclamation?
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Old 2012-01-29, 19:57   Link #27410
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Why wasn't it mentioned for Battler during the replay?
Why would it be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
In this scene, Meta!Lambda has no obligation to show Meta!Battler the perspective of Piece!Erika
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
in order to speed things up and because she's a troll

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
But why do so?
The reason she's wearing the blindfold during the game, is for the sake of the game.

The reason she's being challenged to the game (at the level of the game board)? Because the family wanted to welcome her with something that wasn't strict and formal, and because Piece!Yasuda wanted a way to easily introduce Shannon and Kanon to the newcomer in a way that would definitely make her think that both of them exist at the same time.

The reason Lambda made this game? It's an easy way to let Erika meet everyone on the island and question them, while tricking her into thinking that both Kanon and Shannon are there. As long as Piece!Erika sees Kanon and Shannon at different points later in the story, she shouldn't be suspicious. In fact, she should be thinking "I met both of them in that room" so even if she did get suspicious about ShKanon, that should probably dispell it. Of course, ShKanon is not necessary for Lambdadelta, and it's not necessarily relevant to EP5 anyway, but by making this illusion look like reality, she can keep open as many options as possible.

The reason Lambda didn't show Battler the game?
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Originally Posted by me
in order to speed things up and because she's a troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
But why would she agree to being blindfolded? If she's only being blindfolded during the Parlor scene then WHAT'S THE POINT? Is she playing Pin-The-Tail-On-The-Natsuhi? What challenge is added if she already formulated her ideas and is announcing her proclamation?
Why did she agree to being blindfolded? Well, for starters,
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Originally Posted by me
Naturally, the premise of this game is such that Erika would instantly agree to its terms, upon being challenged. After all, more than anything else, she is the detective.
So it shouldn't be hard to find a motive for her to play the game, and we already know she's very prideful, which resulted in things like her not checking crime scenes properly even when she could have. So,
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
She would probably see this as undertaking an additional challenge as the detective, in order to make things more interesting.
It all fits perfectly with her character, as far as I can see.

The point of doing it in the Parlor scene is because that's where she meets everyone. First impressions are important, and since she's bent on playing the detective, they're all the more important for her. Well, I already explained Lambda's motivations, so.

Weren't we talking about the first parlor scene, where it's confirmed that everyone on the island was inside the room and Erika was being introduced? She wasn't going after Natsuhi yet then.
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Old 2012-01-29, 20:07   Link #27411
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Why would it be?
It's a replay of a game. You don't just leave out information. And if Erika did such great deductions while blindfolded, she would gloat about it. Your theory is damaged because no one talks about it when they have every reason to do so.

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So it shouldn't be hard to find a motive for her to play the game, and we already know she's very prideful, which resulted in things like her not checking crime scenes properly even when she could have. So,
BUT WHAT DOES IT ADD? Stop quoting yourself, I'm asking for more information, not a regurgitation of earlier statements. There is no point in Erika agreeing to be blindfolded; it adds no challenge for her to be prideful about; it's not like she's blindfolded while investigating a crime scene, she's just making proclamations. It's a complete fiat that fudges everyone's characterizations to try and plug up a plothole. It raises questions and answers nothing.

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The point of doing it in the Parlor scene is because that's where she meets everyone. First impressions are important, and since she's bent on playing the detective, they're all the more important for her. Well, I already explained Lambda's motivations, so.
But what information is she denying herself that she would be willing to give up?

And why is Erika willing to give up any information at all? She never demonstrated this at any other point in the series, ever.

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Weren't we talking about the first parlor scene, where it's confirmed that everyone on the island was inside the room and Erika was being introduced? She wasn't going after Natsuhi yet then.
We were discussing the one where Battler is narrating during Erika's proclamation, though both are extremely problematic.
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Old 2012-01-29, 20:19   Link #27412
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's a replay of a game. You don't just leave out information. And if Erika did such great deductions while blindfolded, she would gloat about it. Your theory is damaged because no one talks about it when they have every reason to do so.
My theory doesn't actually require her to make so many great deductions... I was just throwing out a possibility.

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BUT WHAT DOES IT ADD? Stop quoting yourself, I'm asking for more information, not a regurgitation of earlier statements. There is no point in Erika agreeing to be blindfolded; it adds no challenge for her to be prideful about; it's not like she's blindfolded while investigating a crime scene, she's just making proclamations. It's a complete fiat that fudges everyone's characterizations to try and plug up a plothole. It raises questions and answers nothing.
But, this isn't where she's cornering Natsuhi. She's just getting to know all of the Pieces, and playing a game... There's nothing crucial and super important about this game... It's just a game, and the point of games is to have fun. And since, as you say, she's not limiting herself in a major way, it requires little more motive than "she found the idea of the game interesting." Which only requires me to answer "why would she find it interesting?" And I already answered that...

Does it really fudge everyone's characterizations that much?

Again, I'm not trying to explain the scene where she's cornering Natsuhi right now. My theory has nothing to do with that scene. Debating about multiple different scenes at the same time is too much, so let's take this one scene at a time.

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But what information is she denying herself that she would be willing to give up?
The only information she's denying herself is her sight, and it's only for this game, so as you say, it's not anything too major...

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And why is Erika willing to give up any information at all? She never demonstrated this at any other point in the series, ever.
She has never been willing to give up information? Sorry, I'm confused. Please explain why "willing to give up information" has nothing to do with "not inspecting the crime scene of the first twilight even when she easily could have." The information she could have gathered at that crime scene was far more major than the information she could have gathered with her sight in the first Parlor scene, and yet she still gave it up.

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We were discussing the one where Battler is narrating during Erika's proclamation, though both are extremely problematic.
Right, we'll get to Erika's proclamation later. I haven't gone through and re-read the scene of Erika's proclamation yet, so I'm not ready to argue on it.
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Old 2012-01-29, 22:00   Link #27413
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But, this isn't where she's cornering Natsuhi. She's just getting to know all of the Pieces, and playing a game... There's nothing crucial and super important about this game... It's just a game, and the point of games is to have fun. And since, as you say, she's not limiting herself in a major way, it requires little more motive than "she found the idea of the game interesting." Which only requires me to answer "why would she find it interesting?" And I already answered that...

Does it really fudge everyone's characterizations that much?

Again, I'm not trying to explain the scene where she's cornering Natsuhi right now. My theory has nothing to do with that scene. Debating about multiple different scenes at the same time is too much, so let's take this one scene at a time.
Shannon and Kanon were also both present during the "You are the culprit!" scene, which is what Renall and I are primarily concerned with. If your solution doesn't answer both scenes, it's not useful.

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Right, we'll get to Erika's proclamation later. I haven't gone through and re-read the scene of Erika's proclamation yet, so I'm not ready to argue on it.
Well, until you are, we don't really have much to discuss. The blindfold theory is baseless and inelegant, and doesn't even answer both problematic scenes.
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Old 2012-01-29, 22:27   Link #27414
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I am entirely not a part of these debates and speculations, but I just am gonna throw something completely unrelated in to know if anyone ever found a reason to credit or discredit the whole Ikuko may be Shkanontrice shebang?

I haven't been up to the Umineko trends since I read episode 7, honestly. I kinda just read Episode 8 on my own and didn't bother discussing with my friends or anything. Thanks.

Edit: If the general consensus is that people aren't 100% positive either way, I'd love to discuss.
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Old 2012-01-29, 23:28   Link #27415
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Shannon and Kanon were also both present during the "You are the culprit!" scene, which is what Renall and I are primarily concerned with. If your solution doesn't answer both scenes, it's not useful.

Well, until you are, we don't really have much to discuss. The blindfold theory is baseless and inelegant, and doesn't even answer both problematic scenes.
Alright... But personally, I think that Erika's proclamation scene is actually easier to figure out than the introductions scene. For example, I can at least point this out:
The first parlor scene essentially requires Erika to be introduced to everyone. She isn't concerned with any single person in particular, and has every reason to use this as an opportunity to memorize everyone's identities. This makes it much more difficult to trick her into believing the whole ShKanon thing. However, in the proclamation scene, this is not the case.

It's because of this that I thought the first scene is more important and should get attention first... Also, since it's already so tricky to find solutions to these scenes, there's no reason for us to further complicate things by trying to deal with both scenes at once. If you do it on a case by case basis, it might become easier.

Look, the whole thing about them having a game is just one possible explanation I came up with. It doesn't have to be that. As long as there exists some non-suspicious method of obstructing Piece!Erika's vision enough to allow Shannon and Kanon to both introduce themselves without Piece!Yasuda having to change her appearance, it would be good enough.

But it is a stretch, I know.

I think it's easier if I just say that Piece!Yasuda left the room undetected, changed to Kanon, and returned in an inconspicuous manner before Kanon was to be introduced. Of course, when Piece!Yasuda first entered the room as Shannon, everyone on the island was in the room, but that Red text only applied to that specific moment, so it was possible for people to leave and return after that.

It's not the best theory in the world, because it kind of requires Erika to be an idiot (which I don't like), but a slight oversight like this is tolerable, I guess... After all, there were plenty of distractions in the room since everyone was fixated on the new guest and were chatting with her.

If neither of these two theories work though, I'll probably have to resort to Kanon had his own body in EP5 because that would be the only option left which isn't too ridiculous (in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Lenyo View Post
I am entirely not a part of these debates and speculations, but I just am gonna throw something completely unrelated in to know if anyone ever found a reason to credit or discredit the whole Ikuko may be Shkanontrice shebang?

I haven't been up to the Umineko trends since I read episode 7, honestly. I kinda just read Episode 8 on my own and didn't bother discussing with my friends or anything. Thanks.

Edit: If the general consensus is that people aren't 100% positive either way, I'd love to discuss.
It's not 100% positive either way. Some (like me) believe that Ikuko is Yasuda, while others (like AuraTwilight) believe that she's not. And it could pretty much go either way...

I like the theory because it makes the ending a lot more meaningful, and creates a lot of parallels between Yasuda and Kinzo... And it also creates a meaningful parallel for Ange, because with this it's easy to say that Ange was using her "magic" to revive Battler in the same way that she revived Sakutarou in EP4.

But who really knows?
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Old 2012-01-29, 23:48   Link #27416
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I am entirely not a part of these debates and speculations, but I just am gonna throw something completely unrelated in to know if anyone ever found a reason to credit or discredit the whole Ikuko may be Shkanontrice shebang?

I haven't been up to the Umineko trends since I read episode 7, honestly. I kinda just read Episode 8 on my own and didn't bother discussing with my friends or anything. Thanks.

Edit: If the general consensus is that people aren't 100% positive either way, I'd love to discuss.
Well, my personal complaint with the theory is that how in the heck would Yasu have created this whole Ikuko identity a mere few weeks at best after the incident? Ikuko has servants and a family and everything, and she's been writing manuscripts for years.

Also, she's being kind of a dick if she's not telling Battler/Toya what happened. Hell, why does she even need his help to write the stories?

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It's not the best theory in the world, because it kind of requires Erika to be an idiot (which I don't like), but a slight oversight like this is tolerable, I guess... After all, there were plenty of distractions in the room since everyone was fixated on the new guest and were chatting with her.
We might as well just go with "Kanon was standing behind Gohda" then.
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Old 2012-01-30, 00:47   Link #27417
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Well, my personal complaint with the theory is that how in the heck would Yasu have created this whole Ikuko identity a mere few weeks at best after the incident? Ikuko has servants and a family and everything, and she's been writing manuscripts for years.

Also, she's being kind of a dick if she's not telling Battler/Toya what happened. Hell, why does she even need his help to write the stories?
I'm a little lazy to look over the whole Ikuko having an established family or place to go to, but I'll take your word for it and that does make it seem more implausible.

However, I don't think Ikuko would be being a dick at all for not telling Battler what happened. In fact, I thought the whole idea (or at least, my version) of the theory was that Ikuko was so sure she was the culprit, so married to the idea that she killed everyone in one way or another that she wrote the books about how Beatrice (in other words, Yasu) was the only culprit possible and there wasn't any other plausible explanation.

And then Touya tells Ikuko he doesn't agree with her story and they begin debating over it. Touya starts to regain his memories of what happens (mirrored by Battler becoming more competent and forceful in his convictions in the meta-world,) and suddenly is convinced that Beatrice did not do it. By the time of the third book, he'd be trying to convince Ikuko that Eva, the only other survivor, is clearly the culprit. Eventually, he realizes even that's wrong.

I think it's also pretty nicely mirrored, meta-world Battler and what Touya tells Ange at the ???? in Ep8, that he sometimes was convinced who he was and what he felt and sometimes was sure he was Touya and Battler was dead. Meta-world Battler got distraught and unsure of himself many times, like when he found out Asumu wasn't his mother or when Beato betrayed him.

You see what I mean, but am I entirely missing something? I kinda like looking at it this way.

And my whole mirror thing doesn't work unless you're willing to just suspend your disbelief and say that Yasu was able to become Ikuko by doing x or y, so please take that into account.
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Old 2012-01-30, 00:53   Link #27418
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You see what I mean, but am I entirely missing something? I kinda like looking at it this way.
While it's valid, I very strongly disagree with the idea. It makes the entire Meta-World narrative really splotchy and extraneous, especially since Ikuko and Toya don't seem to have an antagonistic relationship of any sort. And what's the deal with Beatrice dying and beign revived? And what's up with Will and Lion? And all of EP8?

Honestly, I like to think that the Meta-World is real, and that the real world and the Meta-World are mutually feeding into each other.

Or, alternatively, that everything is Meta and there was never a Rokkenjima :P
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Old 2012-01-30, 00:59   Link #27419
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While it's valid, I very strongly disagree with the idea. It makes the entire Meta-World narrative really splotchy and extraneous, especially since Ikuko and Toya don't seem to have an antagonistic relationship of any sort. And what's the deal with Beatrice dying and beign revived? And what's up with Will and Lion? And all of EP8?

Honestly, I like to think that the Meta-World is real, and that the real world and the Meta-World are mutually feeding into each other.

Or, alternatively, that everything is Meta and there was never a Rokkenjima :P
I don't think it's an exact mirror; so I don't think I explained myself well enough. I think it's more along the lines of Beatrice and Battler in the meta were representations of how Ikuko and Touya argued. I don't think that every time Ikuko made toast, Beatrice did, as well. Know what I mean?

Beatrice dying would be in episode 4's end, right? I think that's just easily explained (in my theory, that is) by Ikuko giving up on being able to find the truth, or unable to be swayed that she is in fact the culprit. It's the equivalent of her "dying," per se.

Also, I like to think the meta-world is real, as well. But my approach on it is more "it exists because it does." It's like how when I read Umineko, I know I'm reading fiction. So how is a fiction within the fiction any more or less real than what I'm already reading?
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Old 2012-01-30, 02:18   Link #27420
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I don't think it's an exact mirror; so I don't think I explained myself well enough. I think it's more along the lines of Beatrice and Battler in the meta were representations of how Ikuko and Touya argued. I don't think that every time Ikuko made toast, Beatrice did, as well. Know what I mean?
Yes, and that would be why I complain. What's all the extra stuff in the Meta-World FOR, if the whole thing is a metaphor for Touya and Ikuko?

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Beatrice dying would be in episode 4's end, right? I think that's just easily explained (in my theory, that is) by Ikuko giving up on being able to find the truth, or unable to be swayed that she is in fact the culprit. It's the equivalent of her "dying," per se.
EP5, actually. And EP5 SEEMS to be an episode that Ikuko might've had greater influence over, since it doesn't seem Toya cared for it much, given Meta-Battler's behavior.
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