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Old 2012-01-31, 18:02   Link #27461
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Fantasy interpretation: The whole Meta-scenes were real and the Meta-layer is really a "higher world of witches, gods, demons, monsters (and magic)". The gameboards are Kakeras (Fragments) of the "endless pool of possibilities" and overall there were as good as no Metaphora, beside the gameboards themselves. In the Meta world everything was ment literal and clear [even though META-world and METAphora sound similar]

Anti-Fantasy/Real world/Author interpretation: Over 90% of Umineko were Metaphora and represented the string of thoughts of Tohya and/or his arguments with Ikuko.



So Aura... If you use the fantasy interpretation, then your argument is valid. But it would make the whole EP8 "???"-tea party just meaningless and confusing, so i use the real world interpretation. It just makes sense of most points.
The thing is, you're not representing what I actually believe. I think that both interpretations are simultaneously true, and that the Meta-World isn't a "world of witches and magic", but a plane of platonic existence where thoughts aggregate into real existence, and metaphors bear a literal existence. Thus, the Meta-Plane can influence the lower worlds, which shape the Meta-World back, creating a feedback loop of causality so that each 'layer' can be independent and self-sufficient but also feed into one another.

Quote:
3. Who was the real culprit in Rokkenjima Prime?
In all seriousness, probably either George or Battler, given the behavior of Yasu and Eva.

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4. Did Kanon have his own body in EP5 or not?
I don't think so. I guess he could have, but if we're going to let 'canon' episodes fuck around with the basic premises than there could be magic exploding around too.

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5. What is a "reader"?
Someone who reads.

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6. How much power has the detectives authority?
They seem to have superhuman, perfectly accurate senses, a perfectly reliable perspective, and, optionally, can invoke certain Detective Rules such as Knox's Decalogue.

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7. What powers does the GameMaster have?
All the power.

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8. How much influence does the player have on the GameBoard?
They control their character, and nothing else, like in a tabletop roleplaying game.

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9. We know that Bernkastel represents the collective of the people in the internet, but what does Lambdadelta represent?
Actually, we don't know that Bernkastel represents that; that's just a theory. What we do know is that Bern and Lambda seem to be anthropomorphic personifications of luck/chance, and certainty/destiny/willpower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku
Impossible. That is, unless you believe the EP8 ??? scene is yet another Fantasy. I'm 99% sure that Ange mentioned that it was necessary to have knowledge of Sakutarou, among other things, to deduce that Kotobuki Yukari is Ushiromiya Ange. Which the Hachijos clearly did.

If Battler never met Maria between the ages of 3 and 9, then he never came into contact with Sakutarou, not once in his life. Also, he really doesn't seem like the type to think much of it when someone tells him about Maria's stuffed animal buddy.
Touya has read Maria's diary. EP8's ending strongly indicates that EP4's 1998 never happened, so the whole plotline of Ange reading Maria's diary could've been a fiction he wrote. Or perhaps he read the diary, took notes, and sent the book to Ange anonymously, since we're never told how the hell she got Maria's diary in the first place.

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There was a scene, in 1998 I believe, where Ikuko was writing manuscripts by hand with mad skills, and made a comment about refusing to use computers to write her stories. Granted, the Ange of the epilogue had never met Ikuko in 1998, so it pretty much depends on which you think is Fantasy. But even if it is Fantasy, that doesn't meant that it doesn't contain any truth at all.
"Mad skills" doesn't necessarily equate to "super fast writing speed."

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Without love, she cannot be understood. If you don't have love for someone, you won't have the desire to understand them.

This is because love is the single element. All human actions and beliefs exist because of and are shaped by love. Love is what separates furniture from humans.

Looking at Beatrice's final moments in EP7 again, we can see that to her, whether she loves the person in return, isn't as important as whether she is loved in the first place. And the reason she desires to be loved, is because she desires to be understood. While she desires for the one she loves to be the one who understands her, she will even entrust her last moments to a stranger, as long as they understand her.

The desire to stop resisting fate, does not equate to suicidal tendencies. Guilt also, does not equate to suicidal tendencies. Finally, having to bear pain until you can't bear it any longer, does not equate to suicidal tendencies. Certainly, these things can lead to suicide, but not necessarily by any means.
EP7 Beatrice doesn't seem to care when someone shoots her point blank in the face, and Clair, Yasu's Meta-representation, actively seeks for someone to put her to rest. "Yasu craves death in the event that no one understands her" is a highly reasonable conclusion to draw from all the available data, but there is no evidence that she's been building an Ikuko identity in her spare time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remon
How about : Everything is made up and nothing ever happened.
I guess you could do that too. Lion's world is the real world and all the Yasu stuff is a fanfic he wrote about his life when he was feeling moody.
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Old 2012-01-31, 18:24   Link #27462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Touya has read Maria's diary. EP8's ending strongly indicates that EP4's 1998 never happened, so the whole plotline of Ange reading Maria's diary could've been a fiction he wrote. Or perhaps he read the diary, took notes, and sent the book to Ange anonymously, since we're never told how the hell she got Maria's diary in the first place.
The following was said in EP4:
"I had found this diary among her belongings after her death and had secretly taken it home."

If Tohya did write that whole 1998 plotline, then it couldn't have been circulated with the rest of that particular Forgery online. It's the same as how the Meta-World scenes probably weren't in. It just doesn't make sense if they are, because these are things that were never mentioned in a single future timeline when the Forgeries are being discussed.

Therefore, we have no reason to believe that Tohya wrote those parts of the story, and no reason to believe that he ever read the diary.

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EP7 Beatrice doesn't seem to care when someone shoots her point blank in the face, and Clair, Yasu's Meta-representation, actively seeks for someone to put her to rest. "Yasu craves death in the event that no one understands her" is a highly reasonable conclusion to draw from all the available data, but there is no evidence that she's been building an Ikuko identity in her spare time.
The roulette landed on Zero. It's simply that she had prepared herself to die, in case this was the fate she received.

Again, putting an identity (or in other words, a certain part of who she is) to rest does not equate to the death of Yasuda herself.

"Beatrice" is always the one who seeks to be put to rest if Battler does not understand her and remember the promise. After all, she has been waiting for him for a thousand years. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the same applies to Yasuda.
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Old 2012-01-31, 18:33   Link #27463
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Beatrice is Yasu. Yasu did not create a separate personality and named her Beatrice. She became Beatrice. I thought it was obvious in EP7. (It's fine if you're referring to the Yasu before the birth of Beatrice.)
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Old 2012-01-31, 18:43   Link #27464
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
Beatrice is Yasu. Yasu did not create a separate personality and named her Beatrice. She became Beatrice. I thought it was obvious in EP7. (It's fine if you're referring to the Yasu before the birth of Beatrice.)
Then who are Shannon and Kanon?

They are not mere furniture. Treating them as such is unacceptable. A furniture is a being that does not possess love of their own. In other words, their actions and beliefs and everything about them, is determined by the orders they receive. A furniture is pretty much the same as a Piece. This, in turn, is pretty much the same as the characters in an author's story. Said characters cannot do anything, unless the author wills it.
This definition is supported by EP6, where BATTLER understands that a Piece version of Beatrice is incapable of doing or thinking anything without receiving orders to do so.

I do believe that Beatrice is at the very core of who Yasuda is. However, even so, Beatrice is only part of who she is.
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Old 2012-01-31, 18:45   Link #27465
AuraTwilight
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"I had found this diary among her belongings after her death and had secretly taken it home."
As I already said, what we learned in EP4 is highly suspect since nothing after she jumped off the roof actually happened, calling her ENTIRE narration into question. EP4-Ange is a fictional character, so Touya might've written anything he wanted about her. She might've never even seen Maria's diary.

Quote:
If Tohya did write that whole 1998 plotline, then it couldn't have been circulated with the rest of that particular Forgery online. It's the same as how the Meta-World scenes probably weren't in. It just doesn't make sense if they are, because these are things that were never mentioned in a single future timeline when the Forgeries are being discussed.
You're making loads of assumptions. Just because we read it with EP4 doesn't mean that Touya published it as part of his "Alliance of the Golden Witch" Forgery. Even if it did, it doesn't invalidate anything like you claim it does.

Quote:

"Beatrice" is always the one who seeks to be put to rest if Battler does not understand her and remember the promise. After all, she has been waiting for him for a thousand years. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the same applies to Yasuda.
Beatrice and Yasuda are synonymous.

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Then who are Shannon and Kanon?
Shannon is Kanon is Beatrice is Yasuda. Their multiplicity is an illusion, and they are all masks that have the same feelings underneath.



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This definition is supported by EP6, where BATTLER understands that a Piece version of Beatrice is incapable of doing or thinking anything without receiving orders to do so.
But the Piece Version of Beatrice Battler created in EP6 took actions on her own, complete with talking with Ange and studying the previous games on her own accord.
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Old 2012-01-31, 18:50   Link #27466
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Then who are Shannon and Kanon?
They are separate entities. Shannon used to be her ideal, her goal. However she was bored of trying to become a servant and wanted to be a witch instead. But she could't bring herself to just delete Shannon so she "programmed" her to act alone. Same with Kanon.
So basically there are only 3 personalities : Kanon, Shannon and Beato. However Beato is the programmer. She has the right to "modify the world". Shannon and Kanon are not aware of this. It's shown in EP7.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:00   Link #27467
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I take the approach that Yasu is basically an actress, and the Shkanontrice identities are all facades that she pretends to be. She's a hardcore roleplayer, yo. The Legend that all LARPers strive for. Representin' all up ins.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:06   Link #27468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
As I already said, what we learned in EP4 is highly suspect since nothing after she jumped off the roof actually happened, calling her ENTIRE narration into question. EP4-Ange is a fictional character, so Touya might've written anything he wanted about her. She might've never even seen Maria's diary.
That doesn't mean it doesn't contain any truth at all. For example, is it acceptable to believe that Ange was actually on good terms with Eva all along and never hated her? Would it be acceptable to believe that she never even went to St. Lucia Academy? Once you start saying things like that, you might as well just give up on reasoning altogether, because you could pretty much doubt anything and everything.

Quote:
You're making loads of assumptions. Just because we read it with EP4 doesn't mean that Touya published it as part of his "Alliance of the Golden Witch" Forgery. Even if it did, it doesn't invalidate anything like you claim it does.
True. However, my point wasn't that I have proof that he didn't write it. It was simply that we have no reason to believe that he did do so.

If you want to claim that EP4 Ange is simply the personification of Ange's feelings which reached Tohya (after all, it was said time and time again that ANGE's purpose was to convey the feelings of the future Ange to the Battler of 1986), that would be valid, except that... In the EP8 ??? scene, Tohya said he had been terrified of Ange and had refused to meet her of his own will. It really doesn't sound like Ange reached him in any way, shape, or form.

That might seem like I'm making up something to argue against, when you never said anything of the sort, however you did say that the Meta-World in your eyes is
Quote:
a plane of platonic existence where thoughts aggregate into real existence, and metaphors bear a literal existence.
Which leads me to ask, what exactly is EP4 Ange in your eyes? Since it's clear that she doesn't exist on the plane of the game board, and takes form only in the Meta-World, you would need to explain what she is in terms of the Meta-World. Saying that she's a fictional character in Tohya's stories would not align with the rest of your theories.

After all, even in EP8, it's made clear that Ange never actually existed on the game board. BATTLER allowed her to exist there as an illusionary Piece.

Quote:
Beatrice and Yasuda are synonymous.

Shannon is Kanon is Beatrice is Yasuda. Their multiplicity is an illusion, and they are all masks that have the same feelings underneath.
The Shannon that appeared at WhiteDress!Beatrice's birth in Yasuda's story, which is the Shannon that we always see in 1986, has many of the same personality traits that Yasuda once did in her story. For example, the fact that she cannot remember everything without making notes, and is in general quite clumsy, and doesn't function well under pressure.

Without love, your definition is all that could be seen.

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But the Piece Version of Beatrice Battler created in EP6 took actions on her own, complete with talking with Ange and studying the previous games on her own accord.
That Beatrice was a newborn version of Beatrice, who existed on a higher plane than the game board. In other words, she was a being from the Meta World. She was not a Piece.

Last edited by Toku; 2012-01-31 at 19:18.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:11   Link #27469
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But at the beginning we had both Yasu and Shannon. After that (around chapter 4 in Clair's story) what used to be Yasu's narrative and dialogue became Beatrice's. And Will also declared her as the culprit.
I think that Beatrice considers Shannon and Kanon to be a part of her though. Since she spoke in plural and all that we are one yet many deal.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:17   Link #27470
Toku
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
But at the beginning we had both Yasu and Shannon. After that (around chapter 4 in Clair's story) what used to be Yasu's narrative and dialogue became Beatrice's. And Will also declared her as the culprit.
I think that Beatrice considers Shannon and Kanon to be a part of her though. Since she spoke in plural and all that we are one yet many deal.
By playing tricks on others and using the name of Beatrice to explain that it was done by magic, she became able to express herself through that identity in a way that she otherwise could not. This is what happened when WhiteDress!Beatrice was born. However, when acting as a servant, she was Shannon.

Also I would like to say that I made a mistake with a previous Red and will now correct it: The Shannon I was speaking of did not appear in 1983. Rather, she appeared when WhiteDress!Beatrice was born.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:21   Link #27471
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Yeah, but Shannon fell in love with Battler. After the whole broken promise business it was Beatrice(or whitedressbeato, mintbeato w/e) who modified Shannon again, by transferring her love to herself. Kanon and Shannon are never shown to be capable of this, only Yasu was. Therefore Yasu must be MintBeato.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:25   Link #27472
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I guess you could say that there's no actual proof that Shannon and Kanon are also part of Yasuda's identity. However, unless you believe that they are, you won't be able to explain why she chooses to express important parts of herself through them in the episodes, and why she (supposedly) chose to use those facades for years in Rokkenjima Prime. There would have been no reason to do so except that she sees them as parts of who she is.
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Old 2012-01-31, 19:34   Link #27473
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That doesn't mean it doesn't contain any truth at all. For example, is it acceptable to believe that Ange was actually on good terms with Eva all along and never hated her? Would it be acceptable to believe that she never even went to St. Lucia Academy? Once you start saying things like that, you might as well just give up on reasoning altogether, because you could pretty much doubt anything and everything.
Of course not. But Touya never met Ange during that period of her life, and it's not like her entire life was publicized. So he can only make educated speculations. Unfortunately, Ange is a mystery to Touya, and it's perfectly reasonable that he would speculate her destiny, ESPECIALLY AFTER SHE'S ASSUMED DEAD IN 1998.

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True. However, my point wasn't that I have proof that he didn't write it. It was simply that we have no reason to believe that he did do so.
You don't have any proof. That's not what the word 'proof' means. You merely made a conjecture about Touya's personality, but it's not any more supported than my interpretation.

We do know, however, that Touya has had an occupation with Ange for years, and after he almost met her and decided against it out of fear, he's been regretting it ever since. What if he thought she killed herself out of despair because he never met her? Wouldn't he write forgeries about her in that case?

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If you want to claim that EP4 Ange is simply the personification of Ange's feelings which reached Tohya (after all, it was said time and time again that ANGE's purpose was to convey the feelings of the future Ange to the Battler of 1986), that would be valid, except that... In the EP8 ??? scene, Tohya said he had been terrified of Ange and had refused to meet her of his own will. It really doesn't sound like Ange reached him in any way, shape, or form.
Sure you could. Ange's feelings reaching Toya doesn't mean that he can overcome his fear. After all, he did consider meeting her, and hesitated about it.

But that's not important, because...

Quote:
Which leads me to ask, what exactly is EP4 Ange in your eyes? Since it's clear that she doesn't exist on the plane of the game board, and takes form only in the Meta-World, you would need to explain what she is in terms of the Meta-World. Saying that she's a fictional character in Tohya's stories would not align with the rest of your theories.
Actually, it's perfectly in line with my theories, since Toya wrote about Ange's 1998 in my interpretation.

That aside, Meta-Ange represents Ange as a platonic concept, the exact context shifting throughout the narrative similarly to Eva-Beatrice. In general, she represents the hypothetical Ange that Touya never knew, and how he imagined she grew up and suffered without his presence. The long and short of it is that she is the embodiment of Motive. Meta-Battler's reason not to give up. A personal, emotional reason to combat the Witch other than mere stubbornness.

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After all, even in EP8, it's made clear that Ange never actually existed on the game board. BATTLER allowed her to exist there as an illusionary Piece.
How do you figure? She was there, and characters talked to her. The gameboard had a premise wherein Ange went to the island with everyone instead of being sick, just like other gameboards have the premise of Erika washing up on Rokkenjima.

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The Shannon that appeared in 1983 in Yasuda's story, which is the Shannon that we always see in 1986, has many of the same personality traits that pre-1983 Yasuda did in her story. For example, the fact that she cannot remember everything without making notes, and is in general quite clumsy, and doesn't function well under pressure.

Without love, your definition is all that could be seen.
I'm actually a major Yasuda fan, so I would rather you not insult my point of view, thank you very much.

Furthermore, the red you posted doesn't in any way contradict what I said. What's the point of indicating Shannon's and Yasuda's similarities when I'm saying they're the same person?

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That Beatrice was a newborn version of Beatrice, who existed on a higher plane than the game board. In other words, she was a being from the Meta World. She was not a Piece.
She was called a Piece by Ange, Featherine, Bern, Lambda, Erika, And my memory fails me but even possibly by Battler and Virgilia.

That being said, my definition of Piece doesn't pose a problem with this; I don't think being a Piece invalidates a character's free will, independence, personality, or ability to express thoughts and emotions. After all, Erika, Meta-Ange, and Lion are all also called Pieces. Furniture and Pieces are not the same thing.
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Old 2012-01-31, 21:01   Link #27474
Toku
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Of course not. But Touya never met Ange during that period of her life, and it's not like her entire life was publicized. So he can only make educated speculations. Unfortunately, Ange is a mystery to Touya, and it's perfectly reasonable that he would speculate her destiny, ESPECIALLY AFTER SHE'S ASSUMED DEAD IN 1998.
In that case, why would he speculate that she retrieved the diary in secret, from the pile of Maria's belongings, after she died?

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You don't have any proof. That's not what the word 'proof' means. You merely made a conjecture about Touya's personality, but it's not any more supported than my interpretation.
I did say, after all, that my point wasn't that I had proof. In other words, I had already acknowledged that this is not proof.

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We do know, however, that Touya has had an occupation with Ange for years, and after he almost met her and decided against it out of fear, he's been regretting it ever since. What if he thought she killed herself out of despair because he never met her? Wouldn't he write forgeries about her in that case?
It strikes me as extremely odd that someone would decide to write stories about someone who may very well still be alive, in response to the idea that they may have killed themselves... It just doesn't logically follow. I guess it could have happened though.

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That aside, Meta-Ange represents Ange as a platonic concept, the exact context shifting throughout the narrative similarly to Eva-Beatrice. In general, she represents the hypothetical Ange that Touya never knew, and how he imagined she grew up and suffered without his presence. The long and short of it is that she is the embodiment of Motive. Meta-Battler's reason not to give up. A personal, emotional reason to combat the Witch other than mere stubbornness.
Who is the Witch here? The personification of obscured truth?

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How do you figure? She was there, and characters talked to her. The gameboard had a premise wherein Ange went to the island with everyone instead of being sick, just like other gameboards have the premise of Erika washing up on Rokkenjima.
Who was the Detective in EP8? In BATTLER's story, there were no crimes, so how could there be a Detective? If there is no Detective Piece, then illusions can do whatever they want. And in Bernkastel's story, about all that's confirmed of her actions is that she moved around and saw a bunch of corpses after everything had already happened. And after the mystery of Bern's story was solved, it was revealed that she couldn't interact with any of the Pieces in that story at all, and could only watch from a distance. If I remember right, she was able to pass through the bodies of the Pieces as if she was a ghost.

Why did Ange keep saying in EP8 that she knows that BATTLER is just painting one big illusion for her and that none of it is real? How is it possible for a Detective Piece to see that many illusions before 24:00 of Oct. 5? It shouldn't be.

Furthermore, she was sick in the EP8 timeline. She just suddenly and miraculously got better right as it was time to leave for Rokkenjima. Which really doesn't make any sense...

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I'm actually a major Yasuda fan, so I would rather you not insult my point of view, thank you very much.
In that case, I apologize.

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Furthermore, the red you posted doesn't in any way contradict what I said. What's the point of indicating Shannon's and Yasuda's similarities when I'm saying they're the same person?
You said Shannon was just a mask Yasuda wore. A facade, an act, whatever you want to call it. I was arguing against that.

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She was called a Piece by Ange, Featherine, Bern, Lambda, Erika, And my memory fails me but even possibly by Battler and Virgilia.
BATTLER said this when referring to the 'chick' Beato:
"However, she isn't a piece, so she can go against my will."
At that time, he summoned a new Beato, called her a Piece, and said this:
"You're just an illusion who won't laugh unless I order it...
...and who can't even continue to laugh unless I keep on ordering it..."

Hm... Wait...
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......In that case, why are you so dedicated to Ushiromiya Battler? Is there some rule that pieces must obey the Creator that makes them?
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There is no such rule. ......Pieces are tools, ...like a knife. ......If the Game Master uses them well, they can be quite useful.
Isn't this completely contradictory??

And does this mean that the original Meta!Beatrice, who died and was revived without her memories, is also a Piece?

...Oh... I had forgotten about this.
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......Also, the one who gave birth to this piece... was the first Game Master and the one who created this game, Beatrice herself...
I'm not even sure how to interpret any of this anymore. It's all just too confusing.

I guess that this means that the difference between the two Beatos here is that, since BATTLER created one of them, that one couldn't do anything without his orders. But the other had been programmed by Beatrice already... Hmm... No, that still doesn't seem to add up...

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That being said, my definition of Piece doesn't pose a problem with this; I don't think being a Piece invalidates a character's free will, independence, personality, or ability to express thoughts and emotions. After all, Erika, Meta-Ange, and Lion are all also called Pieces. Furniture and Pieces are not the same thing.
Alright, I can accept this now.
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Old 2012-01-31, 21:17   Link #27475
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In that case, why would he speculate that she retrieved the diary in secret, from the pile of Maria's belongings, after she died?
For the same reason he 'speculates' that Eva died on Rokkenjima in Alliance of the Golden Witch. :P

The narrative is fudging facts in order to deliver the message: That message being a comparison between Beatrice, Maria, and Ange, and what they all have in common and ultimately what Battler needs to realize about himself and about these girls.

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It strikes me as extremely odd that someone would decide to write stories about someone who may very well still be alive, in response to the idea that they may have killed themselves... It just doesn't logically follow. I guess it could have happened though.
Ange's fate is a catbox.

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Who is the Witch here? The personification of obscured truth?
Which Witch are you referring to? Meta-Beatrice? The Black Witch that takes Eva-Beatrice's form? Bernkastel?

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Who was the Detective in EP8? In BATTLER's story, there were no crimes, so how could there be a Detective? If there is no Detective Piece, then illusions can do whatever they want. And in Bernkastel's story, about all that's confirmed of her actions is that she moved around and saw a bunch of corpses after everything had already happened. And after the mystery of Bern's story was solved, it was revealed that she couldn't interact with any of the Pieces in that story at all, and could only watch from a distance. If I remember right, she was able to pass through the bodies of the Pieces as if she was a ghost.
Turning it right back around. If there are no crimes, there are no falsehoods. Battler's EP8 board is exactly what it appears to be. He's even allowing magic on this board because why not?

Also, Bern's Gameboard and Battler's Gameboard are not the same thing. There were literally two Gameboards, and Ange was kidnapped from one and put on the other. Since Ange wasn't part of Bern's Game, then of course she couldn't interact with anything.

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Why did Ange keep saying in EP8 that she knows that BATTLER is just painting one big illusion for her and that none of it is real? How is it possible for a Detective Piece to see that many illusions before 24:00 of Oct. 5? It shouldn't be.
Accusing Battler of showing her illusions is not the same as her KNOWING he's showing her illusions (though it is an illusion in that it's a fictional story he wrote). She was upset at him and thought that he was deceiving her and trying to trick her, but that's not necessarily the truth. She was just lashing out. She was so overemotional that she sicked killer goats on everyone in frustration. She was in no position to make a rational judgment call and was just going with the emotional manipulations of Bern and Featherine.

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You said Shannon was just a mask Yasuda wore. A facade, an act, whatever you want to call it. I was arguing against that.
Well, she is. Shannon doesn't really exist. There's Yasuda, pretending to be Shannon. but it's not like Shannon is another self like in a Multiple Personalities scenario. My position is that Yasuda feels the thoughts and emotions of all her selves simultaneously and consciously, her heart torn and indecisive, and she uses roleplaying and acting as an outlet.

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I'm not even sure how to interpret any of this anymore. It's all just too confusing.

I guess that this means that the difference between the two Beatos here is that, since BATTLER created one of them, that one couldn't do anything without his orders. But the other had been programmed by Beatrice already... Hmm...
Alternatively, The whole 'Piece' thing is a spectrum, since there are Pieces, Player's Pieces, Meta-Pieces, Meta-Meta-Pieces...it just seems to be a catch-all term for non-Voyager Witch entities, eventually. Alternatively, Battler could have been deceiving himself about Chick Beato's nature, and she was subconsciously following his desires.
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Old 2012-01-31, 21:22   Link #27476
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
BATTLER said this when referring to the 'chick' Beato:
"However, she isn't a piece, so she can go against my will."
At that time, he summoned a new Beato, called her a Piece, and said this:
"You're just an illusion who won't laugh unless I order it...
...and who can't even continue to laugh unless I keep on ordering it..."
I think the truth is something in between.
ChickBeato is apparently a piece, but not one that Battler created but one that the original Beatrice created and Battler merely set on the gameboard.
So it's possible he can't 'control' her although technically she's a piece and likely a high class one as she can show up in the meta world.

I've been wondering if it's possible that, although the game is apparently Battler vs Erika, Beato was supposed to be a Meta-detective.
Erika, though acting as a detective is the culprit so she can't be the real detective.
Beato, being solely Meta could be able to interact with Meta figures in the same way as Meta Battler could interact with... let's say Ronove.

So it's more like Battler is playing a game with 2 people, from one side there's Erika, from the other there's Beato.
Though Beato isn't called to investigate on who's the culprit but on the past of the previous Beato.

Or, if you want, this would make EP 6 a game from Battler's perspective.
He also thought Shannon had forgot their promise and wanted her to remember, ence the game which aimed to be a mere game... though something went wrong and killing happened anyway.

In Ep 5 Beato and Battler were compared to 2 shy kids afraid to declare to each other. I wonder if this can be the other side of what had happened in Rokkenjima Prime. Battler and Yasuda, persuaded that the other had forgot about the promise, both planned something to get the other to remember. Their plans clashed and ended up twisted by unexpected elements and tragedy happened.

But as it's a recently born theory I still have to work on it.
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:02   Link #27477
Toku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Which Witch are you referring to? Meta-Beatrice? The Black Witch that takes Eva-Beatrice's form? Bernkastel?
I'm referring to the Witch you were talking about:
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A personal, emotional reason to combat the Witch other than mere stubbornness.
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Turning it right back around. If there are no crimes, there are no falsehoods. Battler's EP8 board is exactly what it appears to be. He's even allowing magic on this board because why not?
I must be missing something because I don't know how no crimes guarantees no falsehoods...

You're also saying that all of the following literally exist in the inner logic of his game board...
-Kanon, Shannon, AND Beatrice, all completely separate entities with bodies of their own
-Kinzo, who is not only alive but also with a completely different personality
-Magic... Weren't you always saying that magic can't really exist on the game board outside of the Fantasy side of the story...?

Which by the way, the first two of these things were clearly seen by Ange, which conclusively means that either she can't have a reliable perspective or these things really are real in this story...

...Alright, I really don't care that much about this issue lol. I just thought I could use it as evidence of Ikuko=Yasuda, but it looks like it's possible to get around that by assuming that Tohya read Maria's Diary, and in EP8, warped Beatrice's beloved game board until it was barely recognizable... This really seems like a bizarre theory, in my opinion, but I guess that Ikuko=Yasuda looks just as bizarre to you, so I'll call truce here.

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Accusing Battler of showing her illusions is not the same as her KNOWING he's showing her illusions (though it is an illusion in that it's a fictional story he wrote). She was upset at him and thought that he was deceiving her and trying to trick her, but that's not necessarily the truth. She was just lashing out. She was so overemotional that she sicked killer goats on everyone in frustration. She was in no position to make a rational judgment call and was just going with the emotional manipulations of Bern and Featherine.
This is so totally opposite from what I expected to hear from people here, that I almost find it a bit funny... I'm not making fun of you, but... Wow...

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Well, she is. Shannon doesn't really exist. There's Yasuda, pretending to be Shannon. but it's not like Shannon is another self like in a Multiple Personalities scenario. My position is that Yasuda feels the thoughts and emotions of all her selves simultaneously and consciously, her heart torn and indecisive, and she uses roleplaying and acting as an outlet.
...In that case, you're actually incredibly close to my theory on the matter. The only difference is that I assign the names "Beatrice," "Shannon," "Kanon," etc. to each 'group' of thoughts and emotions. Or in other words, I use these names to refer to different parts of Yasuda's personality.

I just don't like to hear things like "Shannon doesn't really exist," but I think that what you're getting at is "Shannon doesn't physically exist" which is valid... Outside of your interpretation of EP8, I guess.

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Alternatively, The whole 'Piece' thing is a spectrum, since there are Pieces, Player's Pieces, Meta-Pieces, Meta-Meta-Pieces...it just seems to be a catch-all term for non-Voyager Witch entities, eventually. Alternatively, Battler could have been deceiving himself about Chick Beato's nature, and she was subconsciously following his desires.
It was even said in EP8 that, since Auau is on an even higher plane, even Lambda is just a Piece to her. So actually, I think it refers to anyone on a lower plane than you, and can even refer to Voyager witches...

...Alright, I'll accept that definition.

What was I arguing about again? I don't remember. Ummmmmmm...

Oh. Motives for Ikuko=Yasuda.

Following your theory about the personas, let's say that the part of her personality which constitutes "Beatrice" "died" in October of 1986 (as spoken in Red). That in no way prevents the existence of a post-incident Yasuda with a broken identity, who hopes to find a new identity for herself as Hachijo Ikuko, and who kidnapped Hachijo Tohya in hopes that Tohya would be able to understand her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've been wondering if it's possible that, although the game is apparently Battler vs Erika, Beato was supposed to be a Meta-detective.
Erika, though acting as a detective is the culprit so she can't be the real detective.
Beato, being solely Meta could be able to interact with Meta figures in the same way as Meta Battler could interact with... let's say Ronove.
I'm not sure what you mean by Meta-detective but it's true that Chick!Beato seems to exist solely in the Meta-World and can interact freely with other people there... Except in EP8 where she has a Piece.

But more importantly, you brought up something interesting. On the game board of EP6, there is no Detective Piece, is there? So does that mean that there is no reliable perspective, and illusions can do whatever they want outside of Red Truth?

Quote:
In Ep 5 Beato and Battler were compared to 2 shy kids afraid to declare to each other. I wonder if this can be the other side of what had happened in Rokkenjima Prime. Battler and Yasuda, persuaded that the other had forgot about the promise, both planned something to get the other to remember. Their plans clashed and ended up twisted by unexpected elements and tragedy happened.

But as it's a recently born theory I still have to work on it.
...Interesting. This is definitely an interesting theory. But what might Battler's plans have been? Do you have any ideas?
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Old 2012-01-31, 22:49   Link #27478
Lenyo
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It seems like the Ikuko=Yasu debate is a lot more like "Christianity or Islam." I'm just going to say I think the story is very well written if Ikuko is Yasu and Ryukishi is a bro.
Anyway, Rokkenjima Prime thingy. Can someone run down the whole George culprit theory? (Preferably someone who supports it.) I'm not really that knowledgeable on it and would like to be.
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Old 2012-01-31, 23:02   Link #27479
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
I'm referring to the Witch you were talking about:
Ah, my apologies, I was referring to Meta-Battler's fight to deny Beatrice's magic.

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I must be missing something because I don't know how no crimes guarantees no falsehoods...
I'm not saying it guarantees anything, but if there's no intellectual battle, why wouldn't Battler just make everything the same 'level' of real/true?

Quote:

You're also saying that all of the following literally exist in the inner logic of his game board...
-Kanon, Shannon, AND Beatrice, all completely separate entities with bodies of their own
-Kinzo, who is not only alive but also with a completely different personality
-Magic... Weren't you always saying that magic can't really exist on the game board outside of the Fantasy side of the story...?
This is Battler's special Gameboard for Ange, he can design it any way he wants. So...yes. It's quite possible that in that gameboard, all of Yasu's identities are separate, Kinzo is alive and cheerful, and magic is real.

We're already fudging the premise with Ange's presence, and unlike, say, EP5, we're not trying to divulge the Truth or battle a Witch or anything. It only exists to deliver Battler's message.

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...Alright, I really don't care that much about this issue lol. I just thought I could use it as evidence of Ikuko=Yasuda, but it looks like it's possible to get around that by assuming that Tohya read Maria's Diary, and in EP8, warped Beatrice's beloved game board until it was barely recognizable... This really seems like a bizarre theory, in my opinion, but I guess that Ikuko=Yasuda looks just as bizarre to you, so I'll call truce here.
'Warping Beato's gameboard'? NOW who's the one without any love? I think he's being very loving and respectful for it. He has, afterall, described it as "The happiest tale for Beato and me" when he laid her to rest.

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This is so totally opposite from what I expected to hear from people here, that I almost find it a bit funny... I'm not making fun of you, but... Wow...
It's alright, I'm not bothered by it. Can you elaborate on what you mean, though?

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...In that case, you're actually incredibly close to my theory on the matter. The only difference is that I assign the names "Beatrice," "Shannon," "Kanon," etc. to each 'group' of thoughts and emotions. Or in other words, I use these names to refer to different parts of Yasuda's personality.

I just don't like to hear things like "Shannon doesn't really exist," but I think that what you're getting at is "Shannon doesn't physically exist" which is valid... Outside of your interpretation of EP8, I guess.
When people say "Shannon exists", they're usually implying some Multiple Personalities thing, which I am vehemently against. Sorry for the mixup.

Quote:
Oh. Motives for Ikuko=Yasuda.

Following your theory about the personas, let's say that the part of her personality which constitutes "Beatrice" "died" in October of 1986 (as spoken in Red). That in no way prevents the existence of a post-incident Yasuda with a broken identity, who hopes to find a new identity for herself as Hachijo Ikuko, and who kidnapped Hachijo Tohya in hopes that Tohya would be able to understand her.
I'm just going to have to stop the argument here. We can go back and forth for weeks like this, but when it boils down to it, I just can't accept Ikuko=Yasu because it makes Yasu out to be the same sort of psycho bitch as the villain from Stephen King's Misery, and Yasu is supposed to be sympathetic and worthy of our love and understanding. It goes against everything I believe about Umineko to imagine Yasu lying to Battler for 12 years and keeping him as a crippled, brain-damaged prisoner while she exploits him for personal satisfaction while he suffers emotionally over his existential crisis.

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I'm not sure what you mean by Meta-detective but it's true that Chick!Beato seems to exist solely in the Meta-World and can interact freely with other people there... Except in EP8 where she has a Piece.
Chick!Beato doesn't exist in EP8, what are you talking about?

And by Meta-Detective, I think he means how she went around exploring the Gameboard, it's past, and AuAu's library trying to figure things out for Battler's sake.

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But more importantly, you brought up something interesting. On the game board of EP6, there is no Detective Piece, is there? So does that mean that there is no reliable perspective, and illusions can do whatever they want outside of Red Truth?
Well, Erika was at FIRST, but when she revoked it, yea, things pretty much got wrapped up in the Witch's Darkness.

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Anyway, Rokkenjima Prime thingy. Can someone run down the whole George culprit theory? (Preferably someone who supports it.) I'm not really that knowledgeable on it and would like to be.
Kylon's signature has a link to it. The very basic run-down is that he has the capability and the motive, and it explains why both Yasu and Eva shut up the truth and martyr themselves over keeping it locked up in the catbox. It's fairly elegant.
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Old 2012-01-31, 23:30   Link #27480
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm just going to have to stop the argument here. We can go back and forth for weeks like this, but when it boils down to it, I just can't accept Ikuko=Yasu because it makes Yasu out to be the same sort of psycho bitch as the villain from Stephen King's Misery, and Yasu is supposed to be sympathetic and worthy of our love and understanding. It goes against everything I believe about Umineko to imagine Yasu lying to Battler for 12 years and keeping him as a crippled, brain-damaged prisoner while she exploits him for personal satisfaction while he suffers emotionally over his existential crisis.
I don't think anyone who supports Ikuko = Yasu pictures her relationship with Tohya this way. It's fine if you don't like the theory, but you don't need to throw in a bunch of extra details to make it sound evil.
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