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Old 2012-02-01, 00:03   Link #27481
AuraTwilight
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Hey, I'm not the one who threw the word 'kidnapping' into there. :P

But in all seriousness, I'm aware of that, but if Ikuko is Yasu, and everything we know about their relationship is otherwise true, and Toya doesn't know that Ikuko and Yasu are the same person...

Things get REALLY fucked up in a way that isn't very morally defensible.

And if he DOES know she's Yasu, when did he figure that out? Why is she putting him through the torment of struggling to remember if he was there? Why doesn't Ange get to know?

And on and on. It's just not a very elegant theory to me. From my perspective, all it does is draw Ikuko into the Witch Hunter-esque rumor mill web Ryukishi apparently wants to discourage.
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Old 2012-02-01, 00:18   Link #27482
Judoh
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In my case I don't beleive in the Ikuko = Yasu theory because it just doesn't seem to have much evidence backing it. And it doesn't really add anything to the story for me.

Aside from the hint from the Kanji in her name, but that's not a very strong hint to me.

I would be very underwhelmed if Ryukishi suddenly revealed that was the truth. Especially with everything he's said to make Beatrice into a tragic character in his interviews.
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Old 2012-02-01, 01:37   Link #27483
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Kylon's signature has a link to it. The very basic run-down is that he has the capability and the motive, and it explains why both Yasu and Eva shut up the truth and martyr themselves over keeping it locked up in the catbox. It's fairly elegant.
Actually, I don't have the George culprit theory in my signature link, it's Judoh. Who, luckily, has posted right before me. 8) I have all the other usual theories (Author Theory, Epitaph Fakery, etc) though.

But I we post that often now it seems, so the links just disappear for several pages. It would be nice if we could find a place to stick the theories once and for all...
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Old 2012-02-01, 04:09   Link #27484
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It sheds a bit more light on how Beatrice conducted her duel at the Logic Error, too. Perhaps she didn't allow Erika to use Escape Method X because she wanted to crush her theory all the way, but because it was too dangerous to let her thoughts linger on Kanon in the guesthouse...
Oh, absolutely. I've always thought of it this way. Beatrice is pretty crafty, isn't she? She spun her weakest point to instead look like she was giving a handicap for her opponent.

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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I would like to know how it was broken down :P (me no speak japanese)
It's really simple. Ange is written 縁寿, and Kotobuki Yukari is written 寿ゆかり. ゆかり can be, depending on context, written as 縁.

Basically each name uses, or implies the use of, the same two kanji, just with different readings.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
If Tohya did write that whole 1998 plotline, then it couldn't have been circulated with the rest of that particular Forgery online. It's the same as how the Meta-World scenes probably weren't in. It just doesn't make sense if they are, because these are things that were never mentioned in a single future timeline when the Forgeries are being discussed.
Actually, in EP6 Ange and "Hachijou Touya" discussed things that happened in EP4's 1998 narrative, namely Ange's supposed jump and survival from a skyscraper.

By the way, I think EP4's 1998 is written fiction as AT does. In fact, as far as I know I was the first on the forum to propose the idea,

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, Erika was at FIRST, but when she revoked it, yea, things pretty much got wrapped up in the Witch's Darkness.
I still contend that she never was the detective in EP6 at any point.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I don't think anyone who supports Ikuko = Yasu pictures her relationship with Tohya this way. It's fine if you don't like the theory, but you don't need to throw in a bunch of extra details to make it sound evil.
Actually I think AT's interpretation is reasonable. Ikuko's behavior, assuming she is Yasu, really does have a lot of sinister implications. It never bothered me, though; it was just interesting.

But since AT is a big Yasu fan I can appreciate why he is so opposed to it.

On the other hand I think there are sympathetic possibilities too. After all, what's good for Battler is bad for Touya and probably vice versa. How's a Yasu-Ikuko supposed to rightly deal with that?
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Old 2012-02-01, 04:48   Link #27485
AuraTwilight
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I still contend that she never was the detective in EP6 at any point.
Let's just say that she never really did any detecting so the question is irrelevant. I'd rather not get into that for a second time.

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On the other hand I think there are sympathetic possibilities too. After all, what's good for Battler is bad for Touya and probably vice versa. How's a Yasu-Ikuko supposed to rightly deal with that?
Take him to a doctor, for starters. Existential crisis aside, for all we know dude has a treatable brain tumor that's gotten too malignant to deal with thanks to Ikuko's neglect. The final scene is Touya dying of a brain aneurysm. What a bitch.
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Old 2012-02-01, 05:10   Link #27486
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Actually I think AT's interpretation is reasonable. Ikuko's behavior, assuming she is Yasu, really does have a lot of sinister implications. It never bothered me, though; it was just interesting.
I don't really see it. Her "sinister" actions are... what? Not exposing him as a survivor so the media could hound him like they were doing to Eva at the time? Co-authoring books with him? Letting him use the internet?

Frankly, the only way I could see her actions as sinister is if she isn't Yasu, because in that case she doesn't have an excuse for picking him up and adopting him.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Take him to a doctor, for starters. Existential crisis aside, for all we know dude has a treatable brain tumor that's gotten too malignant to deal with thanks to Ikuko's neglect. The final scene is Touya dying of a brain aneurysm. What a bitch.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. How did you get from "didn't take him to a hospital when she first found him" to "never took him to a doctor or let him go to a doctor in 40 years"?
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Old 2012-02-01, 08:09   Link #27487
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Not meaning to do any harm here, but I always feel the morality of the story is kinda fucked up if Yasu survived, getting famous and probably money from (helping) to write forgery about the incident she's at least partly responsible for. The situation of Beatrice/Shanon/Kanon is pretty much described as "dead or alive" problem, so if she's survived...and we just used the "personality death" excuse...it's a very cheap ending. It ruined the Beatrice's death scene to me.

Never mind all the teasing by Featherine to Ange in EP 7...

But I guess it depends on your interpretation of the story and morality too. However, I would at least pick up Ryukishi advice "making truth out of your love" and believe that Yasu had already died on the island or otherwise drowning in the ocean.

On the other hand, I have one question that I have been wondering, how much is Jessica aware of Yasu situation?

Geogre, probably...not at all, judging from his "marriage and children" dream.

But Jessica? She grew up with Yasu so it's just hard to believe that she did not know the truth. Jessica is not written as the most observant person (she did not even notice her grandfather is gone and all for two years), but that's kinda too much for me to accept.

I only have some theory about this, please feel free to correct me.

1. Jessica is simply that dumb.
2. Jessica is aware of Yasu problem, and she's a closet lesbian, or honestly believe Yasu is actually a man.
3. There's no Shanon/Kanon in reality. They are just characters in the story. Jessica does not love Yasu, or at least not in the same way, but for some reason Yasu decided to write the story that way.
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Old 2012-02-01, 08:55   Link #27488
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3. There's no Shanon/Kanon in reality. They are just characters in the story. Jessica does not love Yasu, or at least not in the same way, but for some reason Yasu decided to write the story that way.
One of the memories that flash through Tohya's head when he realises he's Battler contains Kanon. And one of the images that flashes when Ange reads the Book of the Single Truth contains Shannon.

Personally, I tend to believe Yasu seriously fools most of the cast, incredibly difficult as it is, because stuff doesn't make much sense otherwise.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:11   Link #27489
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm not saying it guarantees anything, but if there's no intellectual battle, why wouldn't Battler just make everything the same 'level' of real/true?
I think that essentially, we're doing the same thing here. You seem to agree that the truth is twisted, you just put the twist on a different level. For me, I put it on the level of the game board, because the game board's premises have never been warped in such a crazy way before, and because it easily allows Ange to be written in without having her actually exist on the game board. You put it on a higher level, so that what's on the game board is all real there.

It's true that, since there are no crimes, there's obviously no need for Ange to find the Mystery side of the story. But from my perspective, this simply means that BATTLER now only has to write one story instead of two.

Quote:
This is Battler's special Gameboard for Ange, he can design it any way he wants. So...yes. It's quite possible that in that gameboard, all of Yasu's identities are separate, Kinzo is alive and cheerful, and magic is real.

We're already fudging the premise with Ange's presence, and unlike, say, EP5, we're not trying to divulge the Truth or battle a Witch or anything. It only exists to deliver Battler's message.
That's why I like to think that it's all Fantasy side in EP8. Because this way, you're not fudging the premise with Ange's presence...

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'Warping Beato's gameboard'? NOW who's the one without any love? I think he's being very loving and respectful for it. He has, afterall, described it as "The happiest tale for Beato and me" when he laid her to rest.
Wasn't that a different story? I'm pretty sure there was no implication that that story was EP8... In fact, since EP8 was constructed for Ange's sake and not Beatrice's, I'm inclined to believe that this is something else. I don't think we ever actually saw what he wrote in that book.

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It's alright, I'm not bothered by it. Can you elaborate on what you mean, though?
You remember the various things Bern said to Ange in EP8 to provoke her into going on a rampage and trying to destroy his game board? I was lurking here for a while, so I remember when the 'in' thing was to accept all of those things as the Truth, making BATTLER into some kind of huge villain. I hadn't realized that people's opinions were already changed so much just by reading the other half of EP8.

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When people say "Shannon exists", they're usually implying some Multiple Personalities thing, which I am vehemently against. Sorry for the mixup.
Anyone who thinks she has DID, doesn't know the first thing about DID... So, yeah, I agree.

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I'm just going to have to stop the argument here. We can go back and forth for weeks like this, but when it boils down to it, I just can't accept Ikuko=Yasu because it makes Yasu out to be the same sort of psycho bitch as the villain from Stephen King's Misery, and Yasu is supposed to be sympathetic and worthy of our love and understanding. It goes against everything I believe about Umineko to imagine Yasu lying to Battler for 12 years and keeping him as a crippled, brain-damaged prisoner while she exploits him for personal satisfaction while he suffers emotionally over his existential crisis.
But it's obvious that Yasuda does have identity issues, and that can't really be denied, because otherwise why would she have 3 different self inserts when everyone else has 1? There shouldn't be any need for this, unless she's just having that much trouble expressing herself. Also, we have every reason to believe that Yasuda suffered from very intense emotional pain at the time of the incident (and throughout the 6 years before it), so why can't she be at least a little broken after going through all of that? It's not something for her to feel bad about, she's been through a lot of shit.

After this, she goes and takes him in after he got into an accident, hiring doctors to care for him in secret and establishing a new identity for him, which, whether he had lost his memories or not, would have still been a great act of kindness due to how survivors and relatives are constantly hounded by the media and the Witch Hunters.

Not only that but how is it her fault that he ended up crippled with brain damage? We have absolutely no reason to believe that it is her fault, and every reason to believe that it's not her fault. After all, why would she do this? She has no motive at all.

Also, he was not a prisoner. He was simply recovering at her house, and decided to stay there because for him, that was home. When I said that she kidnapped him, that was referring to how she picked him up off the streets and took him in secretly... But I hadn't meant it in a sinister way or anything like that. I said that because there is a motif of "kidnapping" the one you love, which is only ever meant in a romantic way.

We have no reason to believe that she was exploiting him for personal satisfaction. If she's Yasuda, then obviously, she loves him. Yes, she wants to be known, she wants to be understood, and she wants to be loved, but selfish desires are not inherently evil. All humans have at least some selfish desires of their own. If they don't, I just can't see them as being human.

Lastly, isn't it actually a good thing if she kept her secret from him? That would mean that, even though she wanted him to know who she was, she saw how terrified he was of Ange even after regaining his memories, and how he had become a cripple after nearly dying just for regaining his memories in the first place, and so she put his health above her emotional needs. I think that even Renall would agree that this is good.

All in all, in my opinion Ikuko=Yasuda is a very elegant theory.

Quote:
Chick!Beato doesn't exist in EP8, what are you talking about?
Chick!Beato is the Piece who was created to love Battler and be loved by him. Even after the events of EP6, she is still that same Piece. She just happens to have managed to become similar to the old Beato in a number of ways. But, even so, the old Beato and the new Beato are different.

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Well, Erika was at FIRST, but when she revoked it, yea, things pretty much got wrapped up in the Witch's Darkness.
When you say she revoked it, do you mean at the beginning where she wasn't permitted to proclaim that she is the Detective, or later where she killed 5 people?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But in all seriousness, I'm aware of that, but if Ikuko is Yasu, and everything we know about their relationship is otherwise true, and Toya doesn't know that Ikuko and Yasu are the same person...

Things get REALLY fucked up in a way that isn't very morally defensible.
Please do explain, I'm curious as to exactly how everything gets so fucked up...
(for some reason, I was under the impression that cursing was frowned upon here, but I now understand that this is not the case)

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And if he DOES know she's Yasu, when did he figure that out? Why is she putting him through the torment of struggling to remember if he was there? Why doesn't Ange get to know?

And on and on. It's just not a very elegant theory to me. From my perspective, all it does is draw Ikuko into the Witch Hunter-esque rumor mill web Ryukishi apparently wants to discourage.
He probably didn't know, because if he did, he probably would have gone into a huge panic attack or something at having someone important from Battler's past there, thinking that he would "die" if he met her, and might have even had another "fit," which may very well have resulted in his death this time.

She wants him to remember because she wants him to know who she is, to know about the promise, etc. But does that necessarily mean that she is antagonizing him like Meta!Beatrice did to Meta!Battler? No, not at all. Rather, the fact that he was beginning to get back his memories probably made him think that Battler is the one antagonizing him.

What good would it do Ange even if Ikuko went up to her and said "Hi, I'm Yasuda"? Again, she was 5 when she last met Yasuda, and wasn't known to be particularly good friends with her. I really don't think she'd care, and even if Yasuda said "hey, I'm the culprit" would Ange really believe that? Even if she did believe it, are you sure that Yasuda is the culprit? According to your theories she's not the culprit at all, as far as I can tell.

Also, the fact remains that Yasuda wrote the first two message bottles, and is implied to be interested in covering up the Truth or at least painting herself as the culprit, whether or not she really believes that, so there's that. But even so, she is still different from the Witch Hunters because those people don't really know the Truth and are just imposing their preferred truths on it for fun.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Take him to a doctor, for starters. Existential crisis aside, for all we know dude has a treatable brain tumor that's gotten too malignant to deal with thanks to Ikuko's neglect. The final scene is Touya dying of a brain aneurysm. What a bitch.
No. After all, she hired plenty of good doctors to come care for him AND paid them to keep their mouths shut, which is even better because it allows his identity to be kept secret, so that he can live in peace. The final scene is Tohya becoming Tohya+Battler, and understanding that Yasuda has been by his side the whole time. It's also the only possible way to have a happy ending for YasudaxBattler.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:17   Link #27490
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
One of the memories that flash through Tohya's head when he realises he's Battler contains Kanon. And one of the images that flashes when Ange reads the Book of the Single Truth contains Shannon.

Personally, I tend to believe Yasu seriously fools most of the cast, incredibly difficult as it is, because stuff doesn't make much sense otherwise.
Okay, we just assume there is an idiot ball running around the family in that case...
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:52   Link #27491
Toku
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Not meaning to do any harm here, but I always feel the morality of the story is kinda fucked up if Yasu survived, getting famous and probably money from (helping) to write forgery about the incident she's at least partly responsible for. The situation of Beatrice/Shanon/Kanon is pretty much described as "dead or alive" problem, so if she's survived...and we just used the "personality death" excuse...it's a very cheap ending. It ruined the Beatrice's death scene to me.
Is she really partly responsible for it? According to the "murder mystery game" theory, people took the "deaths" seriously even though everyone was just acting, and one thing led to another, which only makes her indirectly responsible... Which isn't even close to what you're saying.

Also I don't think it's a cheap ending at all. Death doesn't have to be physical to be significant. In fact, I think it's one of the only ways to make the ending really meaningful.

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Never mind all the teasing by Featherine to Ange in EP 7...
Ange only told Bern to prepare an "answer sheet." Bern did everything else. Featherine usually does not interfere at all, which is also true in this case.

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On the other hand, I have one question that I have been wondering, how much is Jessica aware of Yasu situation?

Geogre, probably...not at all, judging from his "marriage and children" dream.

But Jessica? She grew up with Yasu so it's just hard to believe that she did not know the truth. Jessica is not written as the most observant person (she did not even notice her grandfather is gone and all for two years), but that's kinda too much for me to accept.

I only have some theory about this, please feel free to correct me.

1. Jessica is simply that dumb.
2. Jessica is aware of Yasu problem, and she's a closet lesbian, or honestly believe Yasu is actually a man.
3. There's no Shanon/Kanon in reality. They are just characters in the story. Jessica does not love Yasu, or at least not in the same way, but for some reason Yasu decided to write the story that way.
My theory is that she rarely had Kanon "active" pre-incident, because she simply didn't get the opportunity. But one day, Jessica asked her buddy Yasuda to pose as her boyfriend at a school festival because she would be incredibly embarrassed if her friends found out she was lying about having a boyfriend. And it's possible that they happened to become a bit closer as a result of this incident.

Sexual orientation isn't part of the problem here, in my opinion, because I see Yasuda as neither male nor female. In short, I guess you could say something cheesy like "love transcends gender" or something.
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Old 2012-02-01, 09:59   Link #27492
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
How about : Everything is made up and nothing ever happened.
Featherine struck a wager with Lambdadelta that she could create a man who could create a world. Believing such a thing to be unlikely, Lambda took the bet. Featherine created a homonculus, a tabula rasa whom she named Hachijou Tohya, and generates the illusion of Ikuko and her home. Confined there, Tohya falsely believes in the existence of an external reality while Ikuko presents to him "stories" of a nonexistent Ushiromiya family which draws his interest and brings him into conflict with the "witch" in the stories. Bernkastel arrives at this point to spectate and help develop the character of Beatrice.

Tohya begins to develop a sympathetic collection to Ushiromiya Battler, slowly coming to believe that he "was" him, and begins to "remember" being a person who never actually existed. He takes over the role of writer using his "connection" to the characters, developing especially the characters of Battler and Beatrice. All embellishments of characters are actually true, but only become so retroactively as Tohya invents/"remembers" ways they distinguished themselves from stock tropes. He also both discovers/invents and rejects Shkanon, creating independent meta-existences for Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. Which are real, because the Meta-World is the only actual reality. Yasu, therefore, is just a fiction of convenience to explain away a "real world" and a narrative technique from the stories that doesn't actually exist either (although he changes his mind later, apparently).

Eventually, Battler/Beatrice themselves ascend to an independent meta-existence and liberate the creations of the witches from their originator, Tohya, an unexpected development for the witches (but possibly intended by Tohya-as-creator). Bern, who wasn't aware of the original bet, fights this; Lambda, who has come to enjoy the characters in her typical way, decides to play the spoiler on their side. Either way, Featherine wins the bet: Tohya created an entire suite of developed existences from a simple murder story, and they grew so powerful they could no longer be controlled by the witches.

Ange is, of course, a purely fictional construct generated by Tohya based on the imagined life of a character who never actually existed at all before he came up with her. 18-year-old Ange existed before 6-year-old Ange did. Originally, she was just referential backstory. Tohya feels guilty about it because she wasn't suffering until he created her for that purpose, and he didn't at the time realize what he was capable of or that there was no "reality" in which Ange really existed.

Tohya then either yields to becoming part of BATTLER or the two separate fully as Tohya comes to realize he isn't actually Battler. Then he dies, or maybe he doesn't.


And they would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-02-01, 10:52   Link #27493
Toku
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Featherine struck a wager with Lambdadelta that she could create a man who could create a world. Believing such a thing to be unlikely, Lambda took the bet. Featherine created a homonculus, a tabula rasa whom she named Hachijou Tohya, and generates the illusion of Ikuko and her home. Confined there, Tohya falsely believes in the existence of an external reality while Ikuko presents to him "stories" of a nonexistent Ushiromiya family which draws his interest and brings him into conflict with the "witch" in the stories. Bernkastel arrives at this point to spectate and help develop the character of Beatrice.

Tohya begins to develop a sympathetic collection to Ushiromiya Battler, slowly coming to believe that he "was" him, and begins to "remember" being a person who never actually existed. He takes over the role of writer using his "connection" to the characters, developing especially the characters of Battler and Beatrice. All embellishments of characters are actually true, but only become so retroactively as Tohya invents/"remembers" ways they distinguished themselves from stock tropes. He also both discovers/invents and rejects Shkanon, creating independent meta-existences for Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. Which are real, because the Meta-World is the only actual reality. Yasu, therefore, is just a fiction of convenience to explain away a "real world" and a narrative technique from the stories that doesn't actually exist either (although he changes his mind later, apparently).

Eventually, Battler/Beatrice themselves ascend to an independent meta-existence and liberate the creations of the witches from their originator, Tohya, an unexpected development for the witches (but possibly intended by Tohya-as-creator). Bern, who wasn't aware of the original bet, fights this; Lambda, who has come to enjoy the characters in her typical way, decides to play the spoiler on their side. Either way, Featherine wins the bet: Tohya created an entire suite of developed existences from a simple murder story, and they grew so powerful they could no longer be controlled by the witches.

Ange is, of course, a purely fictional construct generated by Tohya based on the imagined life of a character who never actually existed at all before he came up with her. 18-year-old Ange existed before 6-year-old Ange did. Originally, she was just referential backstory. Tohya feels guilty about it because she wasn't suffering until he created her for that purpose, and he didn't at the time realize what he was capable of or that there was no "reality" in which Ange really existed.

Tohya then either yields to becoming part of BATTLER or the two separate fully as Tohya comes to realize he isn't actually Battler. Then he dies, or maybe he doesn't.


And they would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Spoiler:
That is quite a wonderful Gold Truth. *applauds*
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Old 2012-02-01, 11:55   Link #27494
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Nice Renall. You showed us a wonderful example of gold truth being inferior to red truth. Thank you for giving the example.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:03   Link #27495
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Nice Renall. You showed us a wonderful example of gold truth being inferior to red truth. Thank you for giving the example.
Nobody ever said where the red truth is true.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:15   Link #27496
Toku
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Nobody ever said where the red truth is true.
Sure they did. It's only true on the game boards, and absolutely nowhere else.
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Old 2012-02-01, 12:43   Link #27497
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Renall's theory is obviously the truth and there is no need for further debate about any aspect of Umineko.
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Old 2012-02-01, 13:03   Link #27498
AuraTwilight
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I don't really see it. Her "sinister" actions are... what? Not exposing him as a survivor so the media could hound him like they were doing to Eva at the time? Co-authoring books with him? Letting him use the internet?

Frankly, the only way I could see her actions as sinister is if she isn't Yasu, because in that case she doesn't have an excuse for picking him up and adopting him.
You don't see the psychological harm of taking an emotionally, mentally, and physically disabled man and taking care of him yourself instead of taking him to the proper authorities and having him vicariously relive the situation that shattered him to pieces over and over?

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See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. How did you get from "didn't take him to a hospital when she first found him" to "never took him to a doctor or let him go to a doctor in 40 years"?
She ran him over with a car and didn't get him medical help, brah. What the hell would make her go "Doctor time" after that?

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I think that essentially, we're doing the same thing here. You seem to agree that the truth is twisted, you just put the twist on a different level. For me, I put it on the level of the game board, because the game board's premises have never been warped in such a crazy way before, and because it easily allows Ange to be written in without having her actually exist on the game board. You put it on a higher level, so that what's on the game board is all real there.

It's true that, since there are no crimes, there's obviously no need for Ange to find the Mystery side of the story. But from my perspective, this simply means that BATTLER now only has to write one story instead of two.
Indeed. So what's stopping that story from being the True one?

I don't suppose you've read Kinjo's Forgeries of the Golden Witch. I'd recommend them, they'll make my premise make more sense.

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That's why I like to think that it's all Fantasy side in EP8. Because this way, you're not fudging the premise with Ange's presence...
How loveless.

Also, Battler is the Territory Lord. He can change the premise if he fuckin' wants to, right?

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Wasn't that a different story? I'm pretty sure there was no implication that that story was EP8... In fact, since EP8 was constructed for Ange's sake and not Beatrice's, I'm inclined to believe that this is something else. I don't think we ever actually saw what he wrote in that book.
Well then if it's an even HAPPIER tale then my point stands even harder. He's willing to warp the premise for the sake of people he loves. And why shouldn't he? The Mystery Game is Over. Battler won.

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You remember the various things Bern said to Ange in EP8 to provoke her into going on a rampage and trying to destroy his game board? I was lurking here for a while, so I remember when the 'in' thing was to accept all of those things as the Truth, making BATTLER into some kind of huge villain. I hadn't realized that people's opinions were already changed so much just by reading the other half of EP8.
Oh, by all means, BATTLER is still a jackass in EP8. It's just that so is Ange, honestly. I've always felt that way.

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But it's obvious that Yasuda does have identity issues, and that can't really be denied, because otherwise why would she have 3 different self inserts when everyone else has 1? There shouldn't be any need for this, unless she's just having that much trouble expressing herself. Also, we have every reason to believe that Yasuda suffered from very intense emotional pain at the time of the incident (and throughout the 6 years before it), so why can't she be at least a little broken after going through all of that? It's not something for her to feel bad about, she's been through a lot of shit.
But all of her personas have a purpose. What's Ikuko really serve? "Oh herpderp why not be four."

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After this, she goes and takes him in after he got into an accident, hiring doctors to care for him in secret and establishing a new identity for him, which, whether he had lost his memories or not, would have still been a great act of kindness due to how survivors and relatives are constantly hounded by the media and the Witch Hunters.
Yea except she didn't do that. Read the text instead of making stuff up.

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Also, he was not a prisoner. He was simply recovering at her house, and decided to stay there because for him, that was home. When I said that she kidnapped him, that was referring to how she picked him up off the streets and took him in secretly... But I hadn't meant it in a sinister way or anything like that. I said that because there is a motif of "kidnapping" the one you love, which is only ever meant in a romantic way.
He's an amnesiac hobo, he has nowhere else to go, but even then he should be allowed to make the choice, which we never see her verbally offer. Do you know what entrapment is?

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We have no reason to believe that she was exploiting him for personal satisfaction. If she's Yasuda, then obviously, she loves him. Yes, she wants to be known, she wants to be understood, and she wants to be loved, but selfish desires are not inherently evil. All humans have at least some selfish desires of their own. If they don't, I just can't see them as being human.
Love? Yea, but we could argue that if her love for him is pure, she'd want him to remember her ASAP. But since she's exploiting the memory-gaining process and apparently knows all the truth, it's exploitation.

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Lastly, isn't it actually a good thing if she kept her secret from him? That would mean that, even though she wanted him to know who she was, she saw how terrified he was of Ange even after regaining his memories, and how he had become a cripple after nearly dying just for regaining his memories in the first place, and so she put his health above her emotional needs. I think that even Renall would agree that this is good.
Doubtful. He resisted meeting Ange because he built up a Toya personality over the years. Ange was rejected TWELVE YEARS after the incident. Yasu!Ikuko could've explained everything over a decade ago and Touya might not have ever had to fear losing himself.

If she's not evil, she is extremely negligent to the point that she is inadvertently dealing him extreme psychological harm without meaning to do so.

The theory is not elegant. Elegant literary interpretation requires as little fancruft and textless speculation as possible, and Ikuko!Yasu requires much, much assumptions and personal fanfiction.

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Chick!Beato is the Piece who was created to love Battler and be loved by him. Even after the events of EP6, she is still that same Piece. She just happens to have managed to become similar to the old Beato in a number of ways. But, even so, the old Beato and the new Beato are different.
I'm of the opinion that Chick!Beato fully incorporated all of her different representations and became a sort of "Full Beatrice" during the rescue scene.

In any case, Chick!Beato refers to the blank "Zero" Beatrice, so the term is really confusing when you use it outside of that.

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He probably didn't know, because if he did, he probably would have gone into a huge panic attack or something at having someone important from Battler's past there, thinking that he would "die" if he met her, and might have even had another "fit," which may very well have resulted in his death this time.
If she did so immediately instead of waiting over ten years, this wouldn't of been a problem. Touya wasn't immediately born the second Battler 'died', he was constructed by living his life with Ikuko.

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What good would it do Ange even if Ikuko went up to her and said "Hi, I'm Yasuda"? Again, she was 5 when she last met Yasuda, and wasn't known to be particularly good friends with her. I really don't think she'd care, and even if Yasuda said "hey, I'm the culprit" would Ange really believe that? Even if she did believe it, are you sure that Yasuda is the culprit? According to your theories she's not the culprit at all, as far as I can tell.
Either way, Yasuda is responsible for causing the incident to happen, that much is inarguable.

But if you're going to have Ange and Battler meet, might as well have Ikuko be like "Also I'm Shannon" or something.

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Also, the fact remains that Yasuda wrote the first two message bottles, and is implied to be interested in covering up the Truth or at least painting herself as the culprit, whether or not she really believes that, so there's that. But even so, she is still different from the Witch Hunters because those people don't really know the Truth and are just imposing their preferred truths on it for fun.
I meant that WE are the Witch Hunters and are dragging Ikuko into the rumor mill.

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No. After all, she hired plenty of good doctors to come care for him AND paid them to keep their mouths shut, which is even better because it allows his identity to be kept secret, so that he can live in peace. The final scene is Tohya becoming Tohya+Battler, and understanding that Yasuda has been by his side the whole time. It's also the only possible way to have a happy ending for YasudaxBattler.
Denied. We know of one instance where Ikuko turned down medical help for him. Moreover, Battler, Beatrice, and everyone else can live happily in the Golden Land. Ange will meet them all there eventually.

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That is quite a wonderful Gold Truth. *applauds*
That's the "Everything is Meta" theory Renall and I came with I was telling you about. It is the best theory.
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Old 2012-02-01, 13:10   Link #27499
Renall
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The best part about it is, I can just deny absolutely everything that could possibly contradict it as a cruel illusion played upon Tohya by uncaring forces, or a thing of Tohya's own creation in a reality where thought is made manifest. Thanks, solipsism! By eliminating all other options as the work of unreliable Cartesian Demons, you win again!
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Old 2012-02-01, 13:25   Link #27500
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You don't see the psychological harm of taking an emotionally, mentally, and physically disabled man and taking care of him yourself instead of taking him to the proper authorities and having him vicariously relive the situation that shattered him to pieces over and over?

She ran him over with a car and didn't get him medical help, brah. What the hell would make her go "Doctor time" after that?
She didn't run over him, she found him collapsed in the street. He wasn't physically disabled until after his suicide attempt, which was years later.

Speaking of years later, Tohya was the one who started researching the incident and messing around with the message bottles, right? On the internet. He's not a captive audience, he's the one driving the process, and he started it years after the incident without any prompting from Ikuko.
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