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Old 2012-02-01, 15:51   Link #27521
Jan-Poo
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And how do you explain the how he managed the fact he was a "john doe"? That had probably happened after he got an identity somehow.

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Are you sure? "Ushiromiya Battler" is supposed to be dead right now. If Ikuko=Yasuda, then she knows his identity, which means that she could be keeping it secret because if his identity gets out, that would cause a whole mess of problems and utterly destroy his chances of a peaceful life.
Apperently it didn't work, since he tried to kill himself and got on a wheelchair for the rest of his life. What if he was told he was Battler since the beginning? Maybe he wouldn't have developed a Tohya personality and could cope with his memories differently.
Also "who cares about Ange".
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:55   Link #27522
Toku
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
EP 8

There you have it.
I had forgotten about that. Interesting.

By the way, one more thing I'd like to say. If Ikuko takes him to the proper authorities so that he can get the best treatment and everything, doesn't that mean that a whole bunch of people, including people involved with law enforcement, are going to be doing everything they can to restore his memories, because after all he was at Rokkenjima at the time of the incident, and they want to hurry up and take care of the horrible criminal who killed like 16 people? And what methods do you think they're gonna use? I seriously doubt that it's going to be something as subtle as showing him something about Rokkenjima on the internet.
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Old 2012-02-01, 15:58   Link #27523
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I had forgotten about that. Interesting.

By the way, one more thing I'd like to say. If Ikuko takes him to the proper authorities so that he can get the best treatment and everything, doesn't that mean that a whole bunch of people, including people involved with law enforcement, are going to be doing everything they can to restore his memories, because after all he was at Rokkenjima at the time of the incident, and they want to hurry up and take care of the horrible criminal who killed like 16 people? And what methods do you think they're gonna use? I seriously doubt that it's going to be something as subtle as showing him something about Rokkenjima on the internet.
There are pictures of Battler Ushiromiya and at least two people that can identify him. Actually there's a ton if you consider his teachers and classmates.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:01   Link #27524
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And how do you explain the how he managed the fact he was a "john doe"? That had probably happened after he got an identity somehow.
What's the problem here? Ikuko-Yasu has a massive amount of money and knows how to set up a fake identity.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:01   Link #27525
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are pictures of Battler Ushiromiya and at least two people that can identify him. Actually there's a ton if you consider his teachers and classmates.
Apologies, but I'm confused as to what this has to do with the particular post you quoted...

Well, at any rate, regardless of whether Ikuko=Yasuda or not, what you just said is true, so the fact that it's improbable that he wouldn't be identified is kind of irrelevant to my theories...
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:02   Link #27526
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If Battler was found soon after the incident, it'd be trivial to identify him on sight. There are more than enough people who could ID him. Give it a few decades for him to get older and who knows, but at the very least his classmates should be able to pick him out of a lineup. They could probably ID him through other things. His teeth are a big one. DNA from a blood sample, possibly. Fingerprints, if he was ever fingerprinted before (unlikely, but I don't know with Japan whether fingerprints are needed for any critical documents).

Basically, Ikuko needs to make sure nobody ever asks these questions to take any samples from him.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:03   Link #27527
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Didn't Tohya say something along the lines of(Forgive me, I don't feel like fetching the exact words) : ''She said I could get brain surgery if I wanted, but I feared that I was lose ''myself''


Perhaps she didn't want to FORCE Battler into hospital treatment unless he wanted to himself, therefore bribing the doctor in the beginning, when he was still in shock, was necessary. However, after he goes into his supposed fit, he decides he has to do something about it and chooses to start going? Or something along those lines?
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:09   Link #27528
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
What's the problem here? Ikuko-Yasu has a massive amount of money and knows how to set up a fake identity.
Well but that's my point. I can hardly see how Ikuko could have managed to keep a human for several decades in her house without giving him an identity.

But the fact she didn't bring Battler to a hospital right away (albeit she did later) and that she bribed a doctor to keep silent to check Battler as soon as she found him, it's a pretty solid reason to think she didn't have that fake identity ready at the time. She probably had to forge it yet. Or maybe she had it, but she thought it was better to wait a while after the Rokkenjima incident wasn't on everyone's mind, encurring in the risk that someone would recognize Battler from a photo in a newspaper.
But naturally since I don't think Ikuko is Yasu, my explanation for that is that she didn't have a fake ID yet.

Either way, Ikuko didn't bring Battler to a hospital right away. And if he had a brain hemorrage, good bye Battler and Tohya.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Apologies, but I'm confused as to what this has to do with the particular post you quoted...

Well, at any rate, regardless of whether Ikuko=Yasuda or not, what you just said is true, so the fact that it's improbable that he wouldn't be identified is kind of irrelevant to my theories...
Sorry, I thought you were asking what would the police do to check Battler's identity.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:42   Link #27529
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I think what Toku meant is that if Ikuko gave Touya to the authorities, all of those people looking into the incident would want a peek at his mind for information, and that could traumatize him a lot more than Ikuko could by herself.
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Old 2012-02-01, 16:44   Link #27530
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It's still the same game board, which was created by Beatrice. If Red Truths can be discarded so easily, is there anything that's certain in the realm of the game board? Furthermore,
It's technically not. EP4 and EP2, for instance, are two separate Gameboards with different truths and piece arrangements and outcomes.

And you're seriously missing the point. Beatrice can't see the future, and she can't dictate or control how other people are going to play with the Pieces. She can't. That Red only talks about things up until that point, and the Truth of Beatrice's intended scenario. She didn't say it was somehow literally impossible for someone to write about a "Living Kinzo" in like Game7.

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The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

This is the only instance where a Red Truth that affects "all games" needs to be overturned to account for something in a future game. Why would we go out of our way to destroy a constant premise just to justify this one instance? There has to be another way to justify this.
The Truth of the Future overturns the Truth of the Past.

So no matter what Red Truth you make, future circumstances can change it. If I say I have one apple, and always have had one apple, the same is true for all days, and then someone gives me an apple tomorrow, then I have Two apples.

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Why be Shannon or Kanon or Beatrice in the first place? Why not just be Yasuda? Or if Shannon is her "blessed name" as a servant, then why not just be Shannon? Why is Kanon necessary? That's the thing. This is Yasuda we're talking about.
We're given reasons and motives for all those personas, as flimsy as we might find them.

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There's also the fact that she's practically living the life that Yasuda wanted to live even though she's just a random character introduced in the last half of the very last episode, with little in the way of actual character development, even though she takes on a very important role in the plot.
Oh really? Prove it. Most people speculate that she's been living part-time as Ikuko for a few years, and what's the incentive? Toya only shows up in her life after the Rokkenjima Incident.

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That implies that you really don't care at all about the medical care and kidnapping issue, which you seemed quite concerned about. After all, you seem to be saying that Ikuko is only a terrible person if she's actually Yasuda.
I'm SAYING that there's different degrees. One person doing the same thing can be negligent, the other can be outright evil.

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According to the "Murder Mystery Game" theory, she couldn't have known that her actions would lead to this. Therefore, it's not her fault, even if she says it is.
The culprit would have never taken action if she didn't give the Twilight 'Murders' as the perfect cover for the crime. It's her fault, regardless of her intentions. You don't stop being at fault in car accidents just because you didn't intend to rear-end a guy.

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A Red Truth cannot be overturned by anything, let alone a Gold Truth.
The Gold Truth is, by the definition given by Lambda, sometimes superior to the Red Truth. The entire following argument is invalidated.

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Because Our Confession strongly implied that Meta-Beatrice was another one of her avatars, and we know Meta-Beatrice's personality and heart intimately.
WOAH WOAH WOAH BACK DA FUCK UP

How are you reasoning that out? I want the full text you're referring to as long as a scanned page included if possible.
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Old 2012-02-01, 17:10   Link #27531
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
WOAH WOAH WOAH BACK DA FUCK UP

How are you reasoning that out? I want the full text you're referring to as long as a scanned page included if possible.
Here you go. Start reading at "今のところはそんなものである" and continue to the end. That corresponds to the sections "Dlanor and Beato" and "Dlanor's Foreword" in my summary.

Pay specific attention to how Beato describes her own writing, the discussion of the "witches in the Sea of Fragments", the talk about tearing a cat's guts out, and the reason why Dlanor pities Beato.
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Old 2012-02-01, 17:29   Link #27532
Jaden
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I almost want to absolve Yasu of guilt just because if she was completely clean, it'd give me more information on Rokkenjima-prime. After all she's the one who controls the bomb...only Yasu and some servants know about the bomb, and they would have no reason to talk about it unless they wanted to use it. So if Yasu hasn't murdered anyone...it means that at the time she armed the bomb, only herself, Battler and Eva were alive. Eva or Battler would probably have killed the real culprit, or the culprit would have committed suicide. Then they would go ahead to bury everything.
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Old 2012-02-01, 17:39   Link #27533
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I almost want to absolve Yasu of guilt just because if she was completely clean, it'd give me more information on Rokkenjima-prime. After all she's the one who controls the bomb...only Yasu and some servants know about the bomb, and they would have no reason to talk about it unless they wanted to use it. So if Yasu hasn't murdered anyone...it means that at the time she armed the bomb, only herself, Battler and Eva were alive. Eva or Battler would probably have killed the real culprit, or the culprit would have committed suicide. Then they would go ahead to bury everything.
Something that bugs me about the bomb is what Will said in EP7. The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will.
So does that mean that it was not Yasu's fault that the bomb exploded?
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Old 2012-02-01, 17:42   Link #27534
Jaden
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Will said that as an answer to one of the riddles, right? I think it was episode 4 where Battler dies in the end even though he's supposedly the last one alive. There's no doubt Yasu is the culprit in the games. A possible theory I am weighing is that she might be innocent of killing/murder in reality. But it's difficult to absolve her of guilt when she controls the bomb. So if she were innocent despite everything, that would narrow down the possible events that lead to the tragedy in Rokkenjima-prime.
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Old 2012-02-01, 17:51   Link #27535
Judoh
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Will said that as an answer to one of the riddles, right? I think it was episode 4 where Battler dies in the end even though he's supposedly the last one alive.
Right. And Will's probably just saying that after Yasu died in episode 4 the bomb would kill everyone whether she would have wanted it to by that point or not. She can't change her mind and shut it off after she's dead.
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Old 2012-02-01, 18:01   Link #27536
Jaden
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Yes, exactly. One fair assumption I'm making is that if Yasu is innocent, she wouldn't turn on the bomb timer. Even if she was intending to turn it back off later. Playing with that thing already makes her a confirmed lunatic case, you wouldn't turn on the bomb if you weren't prepared to really kill everyone.
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Old 2012-02-01, 18:38   Link #27537
AuraTwilight
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Here you go. Start reading at "今のところはそんなものである" and continue to the end. That corresponds to the sections "Dlanor and Beato" and "Dlanor's Foreword" in my summary.

Pay specific attention to how Beato describes her own writing, the discussion of the "witches in the Sea of Fragments", the talk about tearing a cat's guts out, and the reason why Dlanor pities Beato.
I'm not seein' it. For one thing the cat's guts thing is a metaphor that Chiru makes use of often.

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Something that bugs me about the bomb is what Will said in EP7. The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will.
So does that mean that it was not Yasu's fault that the bomb exploded?
This is a pretty good point. Was she even the one who flipped it on...?
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Old 2012-02-01, 18:51   Link #27538
LyricalAura
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I'm not seein' it. For one thing the cat's guts thing is a metaphor that Chiru makes use of often.
Really? Because I don't remember anyone making use of that metaphor other than a) Featherine and b) Bernkastel who picked it up from Featherine.

You should also address the other things I mentioned. Especially the parts about how she distrusted her readers and thought only 1 in a 1000 could enjoy her work properly, since that was never previously shown in Meta-Beatrice's depiction but was really strongly present in Featherine's.
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Old 2012-02-01, 19:10   Link #27539
Toku
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It's technically not. EP4 and EP2, for instance, are two separate Gameboards with different truths and piece arrangements and outcomes.

And you're seriously missing the point. Beatrice can't see the future, and she can't dictate or control how other people are going to play with the Pieces. She can't. That Red only talks about things up until that point, and the Truth of Beatrice's intended scenario. She didn't say it was somehow literally impossible for someone to write about a "Living Kinzo" in like Game7.
That's not it. A Red Truth is not merely a statement. It's a law that must be followed. Otherwise, BATTLER could have busted right on out of that Logic Error.

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The Truth of the Future overturns the Truth of the Past.

So no matter what Red Truth you make, future circumstances can change it. If I say I have one apple, and always have had one apple, the same is true for all days, and then someone gives me an apple tomorrow, then I have Two apples.
If you say I have one apple, then you're permitted to change the number of apples in the past or the future. But if you say I have one apple. This applies to all days. then you're not permitted to change it. If someone gives you an apple tomorrow, you're gonna have to give it right back. This is because "tomorrow" is included in "all days."

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We're given reasons and motives for all those personas, as flimsy as we might find them.
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Oh really? Prove it. Most people speculate that she's been living part-time as Ikuko for a few years, and what's the incentive? Toya only shows up in her life after the Rokkenjima Incident.
Yasuda is not satisfied with her life on Rokkenjima. Her job is shit, she had to start working when she was a mere 9 years old, Natsuhi is always pressuring her, Natsuhi dropped her off a cliff, Natsuhi won't let her associate herself with Jessica who was her best friend, her real father has never done anything for her aside from committing incest with her mother who was his daughter, her mother is dead and she never new her, George is too busy being jealous to actually care about her, she only gets to see Maria a few times a year tops, Genji is too busy being furniture to give her even a little emotional support, and so Kumasawa is pretty much her only real, constant pillar of support, but she's more like a mother figure rather than a friend. And this is without even mentioning Battler, who brings a whole other world of problems.

In short, she grew up with no real friends, which is an extremely vital part of the identity of a young human. Humans tend to have trouble developing an identity for themselves if they don't even have anyone they can open up to. Everything stays bottled up, and since they don't know anyone all that well, they can't really compare themselves to anyone, so it can be incredibly difficult to sort through their emotions and figure out just what it is they're feeling. Basically, in Yasuda's world, there is only Yasuda. So there's no way for her to really know whether she's a normal kid. She can only assume that she's not, because she hasn't been able to make any friends.

So the million-dollar question is, who is Yasuda? Is there anyone she can ask that question to? Of course not, because nobody really knows the answer.

Alright then, she'll just have to answer that question all on her own. So she spends a lot of time in introspection, and uses a familiar concept to sort through her thoughts: she'll compare herself to characters in stories. Each of the roles she takes on in life, can be seen as a different persona, a different character. And each one should be given a different name.

As a servant, she was given the name Shannon. So her role as a servant becomes "Shannon," and her first friend is the imaginary friend that is the embodiment of the servant she wants to become... That's her ideal.

But one day, she realizes, she can play the role of the Witch named "Beatrice." She finds this role exciting, and can express herself through this identity in ways she never could before. All sorts of bottled up emotions now have an outlet.

Unfortunately, nobody can see "Beatrice." After all, "Beatrice" is a prankster witch who operates at night, and who lives in dreams and stories.

Now she wants to be "Beatrice" more than "Shannon." It's not that she doesn't like "Shannon," but rather that "Shannon" is no longer her ideal. The role of "Shannon" changes accordingly.

Into this situation comes a certain Battler. The two start to think of love for the first time, and this motivates Battler to try and understand Yasuda... And vice versa. With Battler, she can create an identity for herself.

But she also hopes, that he'll be able to see "Beatrice," who no one else really believes in.

And, she wants to leave this screwed up island, and start a better life for herself somewhere else.

So they make a promise. "I'll take you away from here, and together, we'll start a new life somewhere else."

Only problem is, that promise can only be fulfilled if he comes back to the island while she's still there. If she leaves the island before he comes back, she'll be throwing away the promise.

Three years pass, and he aint coming back. Did he forget? She knows that he's got family troubles, and she feels sorry for him, but it's really getting hard to believe in that promise at this point. Even so, she had kept up her hopes for so long because she wanted to believe that she could overturn this ridiculous fate that keeps trapping her and messing up her life.

But can she really do it? Because of her hope, she had nursed her love for him until it became an obsession, and now it just hurts, more than she can bear.

At that moment, when she's too lonely to bear it, a "Kanon" is born. His role is to be a companion. But she doesn't get an opportunity to be "Kanon" often, so he doesn't really end up as developed as the others. So his personality is basically "hey, I'm furniture."

Later, she solves the epitaph, yada yada. A lot could be said about that, but as far as this little story is concerned, it's significance is that she now has a new ray of hope. She knows the truth, GenSawaJo have sworn their loyalty to her, and she has copious amounts of money.

She can now leave the island at any time. That's great, except hey. The role of "Beatrice" can only exist on Rokkenjima. And furthermore, if she leaves now, she'll be throwing away that promise.

Even so, that doesn't mean she'll never get a chance to leave. So she says to GenSawaJo: "convert some of this gold to cash, and go prepare a place for me to live on Niijima. Register a new name for me too." She decides that "Hachijo" sounds good because she's one yet many.

And then, she entrusts the rest to fate. If that promise can ever be fulfilled, she will take on this new identity that she's created.

Stuff happens. It's Oct. 5, 1986, and she's given up hope. Battler did come back, but he doesn't seem to remember. For one reason or another, George, Jessica, Maria, and others are all dead.

What is she to do now? All of her roles are now kind of gone, because she's lived most of her life on Rokkenjima and most of the people that she spent that time with are dead. Battler's still alive, but there's no hope left of the promise being fulfilled.

The only role she has left is "Hachijo."


And that, my friends, is the story of how Yasuda became Ikuko. I'll leave everything else in the cat box. After all, the only thing I'm trying to explain with this is her motive for becoming Ikuko. I don't need to explain anything else. Even so, this might give you a new perspective on Yasuda. Or not, I dunno.

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I'm SAYING that there's different degrees. One person doing the same thing can be negligent, the other can be outright evil.
So if someone kidnaps a badly injured hobo and denies him proper medical care just because she wants him to stay there with her, it's just negligent?

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The culprit would have never taken action if she didn't give the Twilight 'Murders' as the perfect cover for the crime. It's her fault, regardless of her intentions. You don't stop being at fault in car accidents just because you didn't intend to rear-end a guy.
Because she totally made this culprit guy do it. Or, wait, no. Culprit guy has free will, he chose to commit the crime of his own free will, she didn't know he was gonna do it, therefore she's not his accomplice.

If you write up a play and people actually act it out on stage, and a crime occurs there because even though you didn't intend for it to, it provided an opportunity for the crime, does that make you, the writer, the one at fault? Obviously not. You just wrote a play. How is that a crime? It wouldn't even make sense if it was.


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The Gold Truth is, by the definition given by Lambda, sometimes superior to the Red Truth. The entire following argument is invalidated.
I can't remember what that argument was about anymore, so I don't really mind...
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Old 2012-02-01, 19:12   Link #27540
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Really? Because I don't remember anyone making use of that metaphor other than a) Featherine and b) Bernkastel who picked it up from Featherine.

You should also address the other things I mentioned. Especially the parts about how she distrusted her readers and thought only 1 in a 1000 could enjoy her work properly, since that was never previously shown in Meta-Beatrice's depiction but was really strongly present in Featherine's.
Really? I think it's a common thought for most authors, being one myself. You could say it is Ryukishi using the character to express some of his thoughts and anger (maybe) toward his reader like the way Agatha used Adriane Oliver.


I don't know whether Yasu flipped the bomb or not. Heck, we don't know anything on Rockenjima for sure to answer that question. But anyways, I think it's heavily implied that she has intended for everyone in the island to die if nobody solve the epitah, correct me if I wrong.

And it's also implied that the murderer at least taking advantages of her little murder game, so you could not say she hold no responsible here.

I do believe a lot people want to have a happy ending, however, I would respect and have more sympathy to Yasu if she is actually dead after writing the two bottle messages to put all the blame on her, instead of the rest of the family, than for her to survive and continue writing them for the whole public.
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