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Old 2012-02-03, 08:02   Link #27601
Cao Ni Ma
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Beatrice the witch doesn't exist in EP5s world like she did in the previous ones. So that pretty much discards any probability of it being a game being played by Yasu for Battler. If Yasu is still the one thats doing it, then its not as Beatrice but rather as TMF19YA. So you can skirt around any red involving Beatrice not murdering for x reasons and stopping if anyone found the truth.
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Old 2012-02-03, 08:58   Link #27602
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Then why is it impossible to overturn the this story will not have a happy ending in EP8? The only way they were able to refute this particular Red was "it's up to me whether I interpret the ending as happy or not" which seems to mean that while Bernkastel's idea of a happy ending is still impossible, their idea of a happy ending might be possible.
This only referred to Bernkastel's Mystery gameboard. She cannot give red truths for stories of others' gameboards.

After all she said to BATTLER: "It seems we both opened a gameboard at the same time". So there are 2 gameboards with 1 GM each, but they can not use their GM priviligues on the board of the other GM.
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Old 2012-02-03, 09:27   Link #27603
Toku
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This only referred to Bernkastel's Mystery gameboard. She cannot give red truths for stories of others' gameboards.

After all she said to BATTLER: "It seems we both opened a gameboard at the same time". So there are 2 gameboards with 1 GM each, but they can not use their GM priviligues on the board of the other GM.
The game board of EP8 belongs to both BATTLER and Bernkastel at the same time. Presentation of evidence:
"However, my miko is now a Game Master in your game. ......It seems the two of you opened the game board at the same time. It is rare to have two Masters for a single game, but this miracle pleases me. ......After all, I can rest assured that this will make for a proper final game for you both."
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Old 2012-02-03, 09:49   Link #27604
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The game board of EP8 belongs to both BATTLER and Bernkastel at the same time. Presentation of evidence:
"However, my miko is now a Game Master in your game. ......It seems the two of you opened the game board at the same time. It is rare to have two Masters for a single game, but this miracle pleases me. ......After all, I can rest assured that this will make for a proper final game for you both."

What is connected between the boards is only the Meta. The gameboard-worlds themselves are seperate. BATTLER made a game for Ange, where she comes to rokkenjima with everyone from her family present and with everyone being cheerful.

Bernkastels game is a pure Mystery and it is the one she "opened at the same time as BATTLER". After all the background from EP7-???, where she opens it, and the background from EP8, where they fight about the mystery game, are the same.

Can you prove, that the "no happy ending" red truth was not just used for the mystery game, but for the whole gameboard-meta as well? If you cannot, then both are truths that cannot be denied and exist at the same time in the catbox.
Well... most of the arguments, like the identity of Ikuko, also end up like this. As long as there is no "WORD OF GOD".
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Old 2012-02-03, 10:03   Link #27605
Toku
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
What is connected between the boards is only the Meta. The gameboard-worlds themselves are seperate. BATTLER made a game for Ange, where she comes to rokkenjima with everyone from her family present and with everyone being cheerful.

Bernkastels game is a pure Mystery and it is the one she "opened at the same time as BATTLER". After all the background from EP7-???, where she opens it, and the background from EP8, where they fight about the mystery game, are the same.

Can you prove, that the "no happy ending" red truth was not just used for the mystery game, but for the whole gameboard-meta as well? If you cannot, then both are truths that cannot be denied and exist at the same time in the catbox.
Well... most of the arguments, like the identity of Ikuko, also end up like this. As long as there is no "WORD OF GOD".
She said "two masters for a single game." BATTLER was not the Master for Bern's Trial. She also said that they're both game masters because they both "opened the game board at the same time. The Meta-World is not a game board.

Furthermore, my theory is supported by the fact that, when the goats were attacking BATTLER's game board of EP8, Lion and Lambda and everyone made a big deal of not being able to overturn the whole "no happy endings" thing, which according to you, would not apply to them.
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Old 2012-02-03, 10:56   Link #27606
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
EP5 has a more vengeful version of Yasu, who wants to make Natsuhi suffer as much as possible. Or something.
This is basically what I thought. Episode 5 is the game without love, so the motive needs to be something else, with revenge against Natsuhi being the next most likely reason. It's a very strange game. I'd love to see more about what was going on behind the scenes, because we can really only guess with what we have.
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:05   Link #27607
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If the point was revenge against Natsuhi, what's up with killing Hideyoshi? I realize that could also be fake (especially since it was for Natsuhi's benefit), but there's at least an implication that the cousins and Hideyoshi might have actually died at some point. Aside from the implied immediate murder of Krauss after the call, which at least has some connection to Natsuhi enough to harm her.
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:18   Link #27608
Toku
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the point was revenge against Natsuhi, what's up with killing Hideyoshi? I realize that could also be fake (especially since it was for Natsuhi's benefit), but there's at least an implication that the cousins and Hideyoshi might have actually died at some point. Aside from the implied immediate murder of Krauss after the call, which at least has some connection to Natsuhi enough to harm her.
TMF19YA told Natsuhi to go hide in that closet. It's a closed room, that supposedly only has her inside. Eva is practically Natsuhi's biggest enemy in the entire family, and if she finds Natsuhi in that closet, she'll definitely think that Natsuhi killed her husband.

Eva would at least try to kill her, and if someone stopped her from doing so, it wouldn't change the fact that Eva would do all she could to make Natsuhi's life miserable. Not that she doesn't already do a good job of that. And Eva probably wouldn't be the only one who thinks Natsuhi is the culprit. Natsuhi's honor and reputation (or what's left of it) will be torn to shreds.

The question is how this murder was even pulled off. If it's like what I'm saying, then it has to be a genuine death and not acting, or it probably won't fool Eva.
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:46   Link #27609
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This only referred to Bernkastel's Mystery gameboard. She cannot give red truths for stories of others' gameboards.
Well, actually Bern is using the same gameboard as Battler and she could give red truths for Lambda's game in EP 5.

Though I guess Bern's red can also be interpreted.
What's a happy ending? One in which everyone comes back to Ange? We won't have that one.
One in which Battler will come back to her? We won't have this one either.
One in which Ange's family is surely without any guilt?
We won't have this one either.

Though, if we accept the magic ending we might call it a happy ending of some sort... but it's likely that the happy ending Ange had in mind back then wasn't that one so, technically Bern's red truth is true as long as you read it as: this story will not have the happy ending you're wishing in this moment.

But well, to figure out what was in Bern's mind when she said that red is purely speculation.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the point was revenge against Natsuhi, what's up with killing Hideyoshi? I realize that could also be fake (especially since it was for Natsuhi's benefit), but there's at least an implication that the cousins and Hideyoshi might have actually died at some point. Aside from the implied immediate murder of Krauss after the call, which at least has some connection to Natsuhi enough to harm her.
Honestly Hideyoshi's death looked completely faked to me. He was alone in the room, Erika again didn't get to see his body and I always had the feeling they moved it away because they wanted to make sure Natsuhi wouldn't get to see it either once she was left alone with it, Natsuhi was tricked into becoming again the most suspicious person ever...

The death declaration is given at the end of the game so maybe Hideyoshi and the cousins died due to the bomb...

Though it's true we don't really know when they died. It's possible after moving Hideyoshi's 'corpse' someone killed him for real.
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Old 2012-02-03, 11:59   Link #27610
Kealym
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Hideyoshi's death being fake in EP5 makes the most sense.

Natsuhi's viewpoint isn't as reliable as a detective's, but I really see no reason for her to lie about what she's witnessing in that bit, and we already know the cousins not only faked being dead, but because of all the red truths flying around it, the adults also KNEW they were faking.

I agree, I would LOVE to have seen how the rest of the gameboard played out, since it was very clearly implied to keep going after Erika accused Nats in the parlor. COME ON, RYUKISHI. COME. ON.
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Old 2012-02-03, 12:04   Link #27611
Misuzu
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Hideyoshi's absolutely seems faked, but that makes Eva's reaction sort of bizarre, even with her general dislike of Natsuhi. I guess it could be faked and Eva could think it was real, but it's still really weird. Presumably, accomplices are bribed and coerced in the same way they were in the other games, but it still feels as though something very different must have been going on behind the scenes.
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Old 2012-02-03, 12:14   Link #27612
immblueversion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hideyoshi's death being fake in EP5 makes the most sense.
Illusions to illusions.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I agree, I would LOVE to have seen how the rest of the gameboard played out, since it was very clearly implied to keep going after Erika accused Nats in the parlor. COME ON, RYUKISHI. COME. ON.
You want to know how it plays out after its suspension? Here's how.

Natsuhi has been falsely accused, humiliated, and awaiting the justice pretty much everyone believes she deserves. Battler explains his reasoning why Natsuhi couldn't possibly be the culprit by pinning himself as the man who threatened her and framed her, as demonstrated in the final meta-world battle of EP5, sacrificing his dignity so everyone can just stop ganging up on his aunt. Then the island blows up. The end.
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Old 2012-02-03, 13:26   Link #27613
Toku
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But even if it seems faked, that wouldn't make any sense. If that's how it is, then if TMF19YA is really concerned with getting revenge on Natsuhi, Eva will need to be tricked or an accomplice.

I thought something was strange about the fact that Hideyoshi of all people was the first to realize that Kinzo might be dead. He's not really the sharpest tool in the shed. In essence, this seems to imply that Hideyoshi is an accomplice, which does make it seem as though the death would have been faked. Also, the money troubles thing provides perfect motivation for the siblings (save for Krauss) to cooperate. Most likely, Eva wasn't tricked, but rather, she was acting.

But this just makes it too easy. Umineko is never this easy, is it? The very fact that all the clues are leading to this solution makes me want to question it. Though, I can't seem to find any Red Truths that refer to Hideyoshi's murder... Are there any?
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Old 2012-02-03, 13:46   Link #27614
Renall
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The way Eva is described as reacting to Hideyoshi's death is really the only thing that keeps me from declaring it utterly fake. The whole circumstances of his "struggle" with an unknown culprit are illogical and implausible; he sees the attacker first but doesn't recognize them, already unlikely, and then loses a struggle? He is not a small man! Then they wrap him up in a sheet and carry him with them to the Accusing Parlor to watch as Erika gradually solves the crime.

It's just... Eva sure as hell seems to think he's dead. If he's faking, she would've looked closely and realized that. If he's really dead, they wouldn't have moved him. And if she's acting, she probably merits an Oscar. But perhaps she's just a very convincing accomplice.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-02-03, 14:08   Link #27615
Drifloon
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I believe Hideyoshi's death was genuine - come on, he had a stake through his back that couldn't have been self-inflicted - but it sure is weird. Why include that detail about them carrying the corpse away? They didn't do it with any of the others.

Maybe it was just to make Erika seem like even more of a jerk by bringing up the fact that she didn't care about the corpse/murder and only the closed room, who knows.
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Old 2012-02-03, 14:15   Link #27616
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The way Eva is described as reacting to Hideyoshi's death is really the only thing that keeps me from declaring it utterly fake. The whole circumstances of his "struggle" with an unknown culprit are illogical and implausible; he sees the attacker first but doesn't recognize them, already unlikely, and then loses a struggle? He is not a small man! Then they wrap him up in a sheet and carry him with them to the Accusing Parlor to watch as Erika gradually solves the crime.

It's just... Eva sure as hell seems to think he's dead. If he's faking, she would've looked closely and realized that. If he's really dead, they wouldn't have moved him. And if she's acting, she probably merits an Oscar. But perhaps she's just a very convincing accomplice.
Well, she seemed to think George was dead as well and was pretty desperate about it. If she faked back then it's possible she managed to fake even when Hideyoshi 'died' but yes, Eva is pretty good as an actor.
When I realized it for a moment I even doubted the honesty of her pain in EP 4 post Rokkenjima incident... though likely she was being honest in EP 4.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I believe Hideyoshi's death was genuine - come on, he had a stake through his back that couldn't have been self-inflicted - but it sure is weird. Why include that detail about them carrying the corpse away? They didn't do it with any of the others.

Maybe it was just to make Erika seem like even more of a jerk by bringing up the fact that she didn't care about the corpse/murder and only the closed room, who knows.
If I'm not wrong the stake was 'hurriedly removed' by Eva so that not Erika or Natsuhi could witness it.
If you take into consideration the subjective narration and the fact everyone is ganging up against Natsuhi the stake was probably never placed in his back.
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Old 2012-02-03, 14:18   Link #27617
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It's obviously a total fake. Eva's faking too. We've already seen her crying like crazy in EP5 over a non-existent corpse of her son.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I believe Hideyoshi's death was genuine - come on, he had a stake through his back that couldn't have been self-inflicted - but it sure is weird. Why include that detail about them carrying the corpse away? They didn't do it with any of the others.

Maybe it was just to make Erika seem like even more of a jerk by bringing up the fact that she didn't care about the corpse/murder and only the closed room, who knows.
Neither Erika nor Natsuhi saw the stake, and everyone else there was an accomplice.
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Old 2012-02-03, 15:31   Link #27618
Drifloon
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It's obviously a total fake. Eva's faking too. We've already seen her crying like crazy in EP5 over a non-existent corpse of her son.
That's true, but she quickly recovered and seemed as smug and confident as ever trying to corner Natsuhi in Kinzo's study shortly afterwards. That was a hint that she was faking there. But she's still crying and hitting Natsuhi in grief from Hideyoshi's death many hours afterwards at 12:00? I can't believe she could have kept the act up for that long.
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Old 2012-02-03, 15:56   Link #27619
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
That's true, but she quickly recovered and seemed as smug and confident as ever trying to corner Natsuhi in Kinzo's study shortly afterwards. That was a hint that she was faking there. But she's still crying and hitting Natsuhi in grief from Hideyoshi's death many hours afterwards at 12:00? I can't believe she could have kept the act up for that long.
I think it's not really 12:00 in Rokkenjima.
Natsuhi hides in that room at 1:00 PM and is supposed to stay there an hour so she must have left at 2:00 PM. Erika sports her shorts later and they join the others so that Erika can accuse her. However, as soon as Erika accuses her we move in the meta world where the trial starts and the time on the game board is fast forwarded.

So the one jumping at Natsuhi is... some sort of meta version of Eva not the piece!Eva that was on the gameboard.
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Old 2012-02-03, 16:35   Link #27620
immblueversion
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I think it's not really 12:00 in Rokkenjima.
Natsuhi hides in that room at 1:00 PM and is supposed to stay there an hour so she must have left at 2:00 PM. Erika sports her shorts later and they join the others so that Erika can accuse her. However, as soon as Erika accuses her we move in the meta world where the trial starts and the time on the game board is fast forwarded.

So the one jumping at Natsuhi is... some sort of meta version of Eva not the piece!Eva that was on the gameboard.
No, I'm fairly certain that the whole meta-world trial was just to stand in for a rather ordinary and unassuming session of reasoning from Erika on the gameboard Everyone on the gameboard, save Erika and perhaps Natsuhi, is a piece. Even Battler, considering he was killed at the time, yet he was still there.
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