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Old 2012-02-03, 16:53   Link #27621
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
No, I'm fairly certain that the whole meta-world trial was just to stand in for a rather ordinary and unassuming session of reasoning from Erika on the gameboard Everyone on the gameboard, save Erika and perhaps Natsuhi, is a piece. Even Battler, considering he was killed at the time, yet he was still there.
On the gameboard probably there was a scene in which Erika accused Natsuhi and explained why she was doing it, but that one likely was different by the one we were shown (no witches or goat, no red truths and so on) and didn't take place at 24:00 but after 2:00 PM.

So if in that scene too Eva cried and hit Natsuhi in grief from Hideyoshi's death it wasn't after many hours... but short time after Hideyoshi's 'death'.
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Old 2012-02-03, 17:01   Link #27622
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
[...]Even Battler, considering he was killed at the time, yet he was still there.
Huh? When was Battler killed in EP5? Something like that was never shown! Only the other cousins faked their death, but Battler was the one, who screamed etc.
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Old 2012-02-03, 17:28   Link #27623
Kealym
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So, just re-read Hideyoshi's EP5 murder... and I remembered all the reasons I have a distinct dislike of it.

Like I said, I believe Hideyoshi was faking, but unlike the First Twilight, we have no real proof of that. Things that make this room really confusing are Hideyoshi crying on the bed, Eva noticing the struggle from the other side of the door, and the fact that the whole affair apparently took less than 10 minutes.

If Natsuhi's narration contains no lies, Eva pounding on the door serves NO purpose other than trolling Natsuhi. I'm starting to consider, though, whether Natsuhi's narration does contain lies. For example, she assumed Hideyoshi was crying to mourn the loss of George, but maybe he was crying because he feels guilty about what a horrible troll he's helping pull on his sister-in-law. It's similar to, say, if we'd gotten all of EP2 from George's perspective or something. Natsuhi is innocent, but we don't have a guarantee that her narration isn't false. Furthermore, just for argument's sake, it's apparent that any person could have actually murdered Hideyoshi, based on the evidence presented to Erika, as it's no longer a closed room by the time she gets there. HRM.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
On the gameboard probably there was a scene in which Erika accused Natsuhi and explained why she was doing it, but that one likely was different by the one we were shown (no witches or goat, no red truths and so on) and didn't take place at 24:00 but after 2:00 PM.

So if in that scene too Eva cried and hit Natsuhi in grief from Hideyoshi's death it wasn't after many hours... but short time after Hideyoshi's 'death'.
Eh? There was definitely a scene that took place, on the gameboard, wherein Erika presented her case against Natsuhi, and Eva proceeded to beat the ever-longing crap out of her. No witches, goats, or red truths were present at all, though Erika did refer to red text.

After the initial accusation, the survivor party even took the time to search the entire mansion for clues, regroup in the parlor (where Natsuhi had been detained), search the entire mansion again for Kinzo, and regrouped back to the Parlor (Natsuhi accompanied them to her room on this second go around).
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Old 2012-02-03, 18:22   Link #27624
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Eh? There was definitely a scene that took place, on the gameboard, wherein Erika presented her case against Natsuhi, and Eva proceeded to beat the ever-longing crap out of her. No witches, goats, or red truths were present at all, though Erika did refer to red text.

After the initial accusation, the survivor party even took the time to search the entire mansion for clues, regroup in the parlor (where Natsuhi had been detained), search the entire mansion again for Kinzo, and regrouped back to the Parlor (Natsuhi accompanied them to her room on this second go around).
Ops. You're right. I was confused because the scenes taking place on the parlour are mixed with the scenes taking place in the cathedral-like place... though I still think the scene in the parlour doesn't take place at midnight but just after Hideyoshi's murder.

Quote:
At 1:00 PM, she murdered Hideyoshi after he entered that room.
(*From the Trial Synopsis: Page 61)
(*From Supplemental Materials T: Page 26)
(*From the Great Court's Internal Documents: General Affairs A09 #9974)
From the time the others became aware of the incident to the time that they carried Hideyoshi's corpse out, Natsuhi once again concealed herself in the closet.
Furthermore, as proof of this, a button from Natsuhi's clothes was found in the closet.
Afterwards, she exited the closet and tried to return to her own room.
However, Furudo Erika found and questioned her first, and she confessed to the crime.
Now I wonder if the goal of Yasuda in EP 5 was actually to have Natsuhi confess her crime (causing her to fall from a cliff) instead than Battler figuring out Yasuda's mystery game...
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Old 2012-02-03, 19:14   Link #27625
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now I wonder if the goal of Yasuda in EP 5 was actually to have Natsuhi confess her crime (causing her to fall from a cliff) instead than Battler figuring out Yasuda's mystery game...
Could very well be. After all, it was Lambdadelta acting as the game master, not Beatrice.
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Old 2012-02-03, 20:57   Link #27626
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
Could very well be. After all, it was Lambdadelta acting as the game master, not Beatrice.
Exactly and the game was defined as 'loveless'. A possible interpretation for this is that it laked love in the sense that the motivation for the crime wasn't love.
After all Beato doesn't even send her challenging letter this time.
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Old 2012-02-03, 22:03   Link #27627
Cao Ni Ma
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Another thing that also falls in that same vain. If Yasu never created this Beatrice, why would she create Kanon? If she's hell bent in causing grief to the family, why would she hinder herself by making an alter ego? Does she feel anything at all for Jessica in this universe?
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Old 2012-02-03, 22:35   Link #27628
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Another thing that also falls in that same vain. If Yasu never created this Beatrice, why would she create Kanon? If she's hell bent in causing grief to the family, why would she hinder herself by making an alter ego? Does she feel anything at all for Jessica in this universe?
Well, EP 7 said that Beato was created at a way earlier stage, when she definitely wasn't planning the Rokkenjima massacre/incident/whatever.
The same goes for Kanon.
So it's possible that Yasuda of EP 5 has created her own version of Beato... only we aren't shown Yasuda's Beato but Natsuhi's Beato.
The Beato of EP 5 is definitely created by Natsuhi though magic/meta scenes present her as if she was the same Beato as before and gave her the previous Beato's knowledge.

Sort of like saying that there's only a 'piece!Beatrice' but this time it's Natsuhi that's moving it and not Yasuda... though handing the ring to Battler was probably Yasuda's decision (in fact we've a Beato who could care less about her resurrection but that's extremely loyal to Natsuhi...).

I'm not too sure if I'm being clear... if I'm not I apologize...
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Old 2012-02-04, 09:32   Link #27629
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Another thing that also falls in that same vain. If Yasu never created this Beatrice, why would she create Kanon? If she's hell bent in causing grief to the family, why would she hinder herself by making an alter ego? Does she feel anything at all for Jessica in this universe?
We didn't really get an explanation for Kanon's existence even in Episode 7. It was just sort of "ooh, brother would be cool whoosh", and that was it. He mostly seemed to be around for the sake of having a Shkannon reveal later on, but the best in-story interpretation I can come up with is that he exists because of Yasu's gender issues, which she'd definitely still have in a world where she wasn't lovesick over Battler.
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Old 2012-02-04, 10:40   Link #27630
battle22
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btw guys in ep5 it is said that erika went into kinzo's study for chamicals. when did she do that?
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Old 2012-02-04, 12:08   Link #27631
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
We didn't really get an explanation for Kanon's existence even in Episode 7. It was just sort of "ooh, brother would be cool whoosh", and that was it. He mostly seemed to be around for the sake of having a Shkannon reveal later on, but the best in-story interpretation I can come up with is that he exists because of Yasu's gender issues, which she'd definitely still have in a world where she wasn't lovesick over Battler.
Well, Yasuda tended to create immaginary friends... as for Kanon having a job my theory was that after Kinzo's death Natsuhi was tricked into letting her play a double role so that there was always/nearly always a servant with Kinzo that could testify Kinzo was in a certain place.

So while Shannon is serving dinner, if one of the siblings were to ask 'Where's father?'
'He could be answered 'he decided to eat in his room, Kanon is serving him the food there.'

This allow Natsuhi to have an extra servant that could testify that 'father is alive and is doing X in the Y place' without having to hire or bribe another person or asking to one of the servants to stay hidden and pretend he's with Kinzo... while Yasuda can make even more real her 'little brother'.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
btw guys in ep5 it is said that erika went into kinzo's study for chamicals. when did she do that?
It's possible she did so when she was busy checking everyone's alibi, after the cousins' 'deaths' and prior to Hideyoshi's... though I don't remember the exact quote so I might be wrong.
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Old 2012-02-04, 14:43   Link #27632
Cao Ni Ma
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We didn't really get an explanation for Kanon's existence even in Episode 7. It was just sort of "ooh, brother would be cool whoosh", and that was it. He mostly seemed to be around for the sake of having a Shkannon reveal later on, but the best in-story interpretation I can come up with is that he exists because of Yasu's gender issues, which she'd definitely still have in a world where she wasn't lovesick over Battler.
I just dont see a character thats hellbent on getting revenge against a person or family having gender issues. Usually the person is portrayed as being consumed by their desire to have revenge on the person. Every waking moment spent on an elaborate plan to make that person suffer, where their deaths would be more of a relief, so he/she tortures them physically and mentally.

I just cant see this version of Yasu going "God damn , what AM I? Let me just put my rage and quest for revenge on hold as I create a secondary persona that will undoubtedly hamper my grand plans. At least I'll feel better, I think"

I also dont think that Yasu created Kanon just because of gender issues. She really cared for Jessica and wanted her to have a boyfriend, so she gave it to her. Its the reason why Kanon just cant exist if Jessica dies. Which is interesting, because lets say Erika actually inspected the corpses in the first twilight and confirmed their deaths. Would Kanon have died shortly after that? Or would he stay alive in this world?
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:07   Link #27633
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Am I the only one who wonders if TMF19YA might actually not be Yasuda? I mean, I don't really have any evidence for it, but then again, the only things that even point to it being Yasuda in the first place are:
1. Grudge against Natsuhi.
2. Will bringing up TMF19YA when referring to Yasuda, in EP7.
3. The age 19.

That's about it... And so, actually, it's not necessarily Yasuda at all. It might have simply been:
1. (meta level) Lambda trying to give a hint at Yasuda's identity.
2. (game board level) Someone trying to use Yasuda's identity to mess with Natsuhi. They might not even be 19 years old.

In particular, something that I keep wondering about is the fact that Battler seems to be deeply involved in some plot in EP5. I wonder if, maybe, Battler and Yasuda are actually working together in EP5. That would be ironic, since...

Actually, why does everyone put such significance on Ronove's line about it being a game without love? This was only said once, and by him alone. Sure, it may very well mean that the motive isn't about love anymore (or it may mean something else), but it doesn't necessarily mean that there is no love to be found anywhere in EP5.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:38   Link #27634
Cao Ni Ma
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There aren't a whole lot of people that could fit though. Erika was with a group of people at the time Nats got a call right? Who else would know about Yasuda's identity? Battler pretty much pins it on himself, I think its been mentioned that the PS3s version had Battler as the caller as well.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:51   Link #27635
musouka
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I just dont see a character thats hellbent on getting revenge against a person or family having gender issues. Usually the person is portrayed as being consumed by their desire to have revenge on the person. Every waking moment spent on an elaborate plan to make that person suffer, where their deaths would be more of a relief, so he/she tortures them physically and mentally.
Good thing revenge was deliberately taken off the table as the motivation then, huh?

EDIT: Okay, that's needlessly flippant. Let me put it this way. Yasu in EP5 is portrayed as having a reason for wanting revenge that Lambda can exploit in the making of her game. The only thing LEFT is "gender issues". Yasu obviously didn't care about being the head or the gold itself, otherwise they wouldn't have been offered up as prizes. The only thing left is the mutilation of Yasu's body--which Natsuhi was directly responsible for.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:51   Link #27636
Cao Ni Ma
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Good thing revenge was deliberately taken off the table as the motivation then, huh?
I already explained this though. This isn't "Beatrice" in EP5. Its TMF19YA.

Again, Beatrice doesn't exist in EP5 as she did in the previous episodes. No letter, no mention from Maria and at most the delusions from piece Natsuhi flawed perspective and a passing remark by Maria when someone mentions the "golden land" part of the epitaph.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:53   Link #27637
Toku
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
There aren't a whole lot of people that could fit though. Erika was with a group of people at the time Nats got a call right? Who else would know about Yasuda's identity? Battler pretty much pins it on himself, I think its been mentioned that the PS3s version had Battler as the caller as well.
That's why it's confusing. "Why would Battler know about Yasuda's identity?" is about the only thing stopping me from thinking that it could very well be him. If he was cooperating with Yasuda in some way, it's possible to explain that, however I think it might be too big of an assumption.

On the other hand, there's the fact that Natsuhi (apparently) didn't recognize the voice. Considering the scene where she confessed to dropping the infant off the cliff 19 years ago, it seems that she did in fact believe it was the kid from back then, so she probably didn't recognize the voice. That narrows down the possibilities a lot more...

After all, I only really know of one person in Umineko who is implied to have skill at manipulating their voice to sound different... Yasuda.

However, it's worthy of note that the phone call scenes were delivered to us by a proven-to-be-unreliable perspective. There wasn't a Detective Piece present, or anyone else for that matter, so all of the scenes where we saw TMF19YA talking are completely wrapped in the darkness of the Witch.

But, I guess the explanation that it was Piece!Yasuda is the best that I've got right now. If anyone finds something interesting on the matter of TMF19YA, please do share. There might have been plenty of hints that I'd forgotten.
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Old 2012-02-04, 15:56   Link #27638
Cao Ni Ma
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That's why it's confusing. "Why would Battler know about Yasuda's identity?"
He doesn't need to know, thanks to the nature of the box, he made himself TMF19YA.
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Old 2012-02-04, 16:01   Link #27639
musouka
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I already explained this though. This isn't "Beatrice" in EP5. Its TMF19YA.

Again, Beatrice doesn't exist in EP5 as she did in the previous episodes. No letter, no mention from Maria and at most the delusions from piece Natsuhi flawed perspective and a passing remark by Maria when someone mentions the "golden land" part of the epitaph.
It doesn't matter. Yasu as a person has a clear reason for revenge. As I said, it's the gender issue. The thing Natsuhi caused. By shoving Yasu off a cliff. In fact, it's the only thing that makes sense in this situation, as Yasu has already "gained" back everything they "lost" through Natsuhi's actions except the one thing that can't be returned.
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Old 2012-02-04, 16:07   Link #27640
Cao Ni Ma
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It doesn't matter. Yasu as a person has a clear reason for revenge. As I said, it's the gender issue. The thing Natsuhi caused. By shoving Yasu off a cliff. In fact, it's the only thing that makes sense in this situation, as Yasu has already "gained" back everything they "lost" through Natsuhi's actions except the one thing that can't be returned.
IF Yasu in this game is actually Shanon and Kanon then yeah, you could see it that way. The detective would gather everyone, will make the denouement against both Shannon and Kanon, will explain how everything was done and then when everyone is up in arms to find Kanon, the detective would say "No need, he's been here all along" and will fit in their existence as the motive for the crimes.

This is one of the possibilities, it has a loads of problems that we've already gone trough in the past few pages. Theres also the possibility that they weren't the same person, thus crippling your theory entirely. That the culprit really was Battler as TMF19YA. Or that it was one of the kids/Rosa from the first twilight.
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