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Old 2012-02-05, 17:21   Link #27721
AuraTwilight
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I know it's a possibility, but even if that happens to be the case, what difference would it make? It also requires an additional assumption or three, so I kind of doubt it...
Yasu's sexual ambiguity exists for a reason. To the point that it takes up the bulk of Episode Seven. We all thought she was a girl by default, so there must be some meaning in bringing up "Maybe she's NOT a girl."

Quote:

However, I don't like that theory, because Yasuda has no motivation to tell everyone her story and, in fact, we have no reason to believe she did, outside of TMF19YA, who may in fact be Yasuda herself. Even if Battler's seiyuu voices TMF19YA and the files are in the same folder, that does not imply Ryukishi went over and told them that Battler is TMF19YA. Especially because of this:
Battler contacted Yasuda at some point before the Conference, so in a fit of love and hope, Yasuda confessed EVERYTHING to him. She had no intention of hurting Natsuhi or anyone else.

Quote:
Also, I don't like the theory that Natsuhi knew the child's gender, because we have no reason to believe that she did.
That's stupid. She had the baby in her arms when it was first introduced to her, and certainly Kinzo would be like "It's a [x], name it [y]."

Quote:
And that should automatically make him not responsible for the phone calls. It's just not something Battler would do. But I guess the voice actor thing is such an important hint that it makes people completely disregard the character's personality.
On what basis are you making this judgment call. We don't actually KNOW anything about Battler, given that the only Battler we got to know is a fictional construct. Even still, this is Lambda's loveless game. If she wants to make Battler an asshole, she will. Certainly, we already know that EP5 Battler is different from our Battler, since he's smarter and willing to uphold Beatrice's lies in fantasy scenes.

Also, Black Battler.
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Old 2012-02-05, 17:45   Link #27722
GreyZone
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Oh first time i completly agree with you, AuraTwilight.


1. We know almost nothing about Prime!Battler

2. Battler lies to "us" about Kinzo. Why not also lie about the whole monologue?

3. If we take the trial as a metaphorical version for what happened in the parlor, then Battler saying he himself may be the so-called "culprit" means, that he is confessing that it was him who did it, while not giving out the whole truth, to protect Yasuda's identity. Maybe later in the game, the cousins and the other ones involved would come out saying "surprise!" and making Erika look like a fool. Then at some time the bomb explodes because Erika turned the switch in anger and... "no one is left alive".
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Old 2012-02-05, 18:27   Link #27723
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Piece-Yasu's motive in EP1-4 is plenty ridiculous in of itself, and EP5 is with a different Game Master and Player; so I don't think the motive in EP5 is really meant to be something that could be able to stand up to serious scrutiny. Just wave the hand.

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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
Like the closed room reveal from episode 2- I thought it was pretty neat, and it made sense once he revealed it, but no one had even guessed at it, and I don't think there was anywhere near enough evidence for people to decide that was definitely what happened.
The suicide? I had already thought it was a suicide from Will's "coffin" remark, although the method of hiding the weapon I had never imagined.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yasu's sexual ambiguity exists for a reason. To the point that it takes up the bulk of Episode Seven. We all thought she was a girl by default, so there must be some meaning in bringing up "Maybe she's NOT a girl."
Agree. Natsuhi would probably know the baby's sex. Also, regardless of the voice, the MF19YO presented themselves as male, which meant that either the MF19YO really was male, or that he assumed Natsuhi didn't know the baby's sex and thus would accept the idea that the baby was male.

You can make things fit if you really want to believe the baby's sex to be female, but the only hint that points to Yasu's sex being female is her gender orientation (which itself is only female leaning...). It's most elegant if Yasu's sex is male and gender is (kind of) female.
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Old 2012-02-05, 18:42   Link #27724
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Yasu wouldn't have any way of knowing that Natsuhi didn't know the baby's sex, if she didn't. If she was born male, that's how she'd need to present herself to make sure to freak out Natsuhi.
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Old 2012-02-05, 18:43   Link #27725
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The suicide? I had already thought it was a suicide from Will's "coffin" remark, although the method of hiding the weapon I had never imagined
Yup, the suicide. I can't even remember exactly what I thought happened now, but I never even saw someone suggest the gun trick.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:01   Link #27726
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Agree. Natsuhi would probably know the baby's sex. Also, regardless of the voice, the MF19YO presented themselves as male, which meant that either the MF19YO really was male, or that he assumed Natsuhi didn't know the baby's sex and thus would accept the idea that the baby was male.

You can make things fit if you really want to believe the baby's sex to be female, but the only hint that points to Yasu's sex being female is her gender orientation (which itself is only female leaning...). It's most elegant if Yasu's sex is male and gender is (kind of) female.
I still find odd that, if the baby was a male and Natsuhi knew which sex the baby was, Genji decided not only to change the baby's sex but also the baby's age.

Just changing the sex should have been a change big enough to make hard for Natsuhi and Kinzo to connect the baby and Shannon.
Actually changing her age making her younger not only becomes pointless but draw on her even more attention as she became too young to be a servant and therefore makes odd Genji hired her...
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:04   Link #27727
LyricalAura
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IIRC, Yasu's age was fudged because the fall severely stunted her growth, and she looked abnormally young for her real age. It was to help her blend in better, rather than to fool Natsuhi.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:16   Link #27728
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Also, I don't think Kinzo would be stopped by Beatrice's gender.

Especially since he knows 'Lion' is a boy.

Kinzo makes love like the Greeks do.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:26   Link #27729
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Just a quick question, as I don't keep up with this thread all that much. Did Ryukishi ever say there were hints in the PS3 version that weren't in the PC version? Or that the voice acting was something that should be taken very seriously as a hint? Because if not, I think some people may be putting way too much stock in it. I wouldn't see it as a "hint", as I'm sure if he wanted to give out a hint like that, he would have found a way to do it in the version he himself put out.

The game boards aren't what really happened, and they can have plenty of fantasy elements in them. Natsuhi isn't the Detective of EP5, so just because she hears the Man From 19 Years Ago with that voice doesn't mean that actually happened. It just seems like a red herring to me to keep the identity of Yasu more of a mystery until EP7, as well as help set up Battler's argument that he was the culprit at the end of EP5.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:31   Link #27730
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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
I haven't played the voiced games, that's a pretty clear hint. I can definitely see Natsuhi not recognizing Battler's voice if he disguised it a little, since she would've have barely spoken to him in years. It fits with Battler's reaction at the end too.
Good observation! I'd totally forgotten that Battler arriving at the mansion on the 4th is the first time she'd seen or herd him in forever.

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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
Doesn't Virgilia say it too? Or agree with it?
I forget the specifics, but I'm pretty sure every character in Beato's camp comments on EP5's oddities as a game.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I guess he was also disturbed by how Natsuhi insisted in her lie even when she believed her daughter was dead and her husband might have been killed as well.

I think in EP 5 Battler is seriously disgusted by all the adults and that's why piece!Battler doesn't take a clear stance.
This is a good point, too. I argue that Battler defended Natsuhi because he didn't like how she was being treated, but it's most likely that he wasn't really pleased with Natsuhi, either.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
On what basis are you making this judgment call. We don't actually KNOW anything about Battler, given that the only Battler we got to know is a fictional construct. Even still, this is Lambda's loveless game. If she wants to make Battler an asshole, she will. Certainly, we already know that EP5 Battler is different from our Battler, since he's smarter and willing to uphold Beatrice's lies in fantasy scenes.

Also, Black Battler.
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
1. We know almost nothing about Prime!Battler
I actually was thinking about this a bit earlier. I dunno - for ME, while I accept that the pieces, as we see them, are being seen through a content filter made of certain assumptions, on the real world level, like OUR WORLD, I think Ryukishi, generally speaking, portrayed the pieces as the people they were in their actual lives.

There's alot more that can be said on the matter, but my opinion at it's shallowest is "I doubt Ryukishi strayed VERY far from how he thought these characters would actually behave." Otherwise you get something like him saying "Well, Natsuhi is a super-intellectual yet foul mouthed floozy. But when I write my gameboard, I think she'll play the prim, uptight housewife." I mean, yeah that's possible, but really, now.

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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
Yup, the suicide. I can't even remember exactly what I thought happened now, but I never even saw someone suggest the gun trick.
The gun trick is sort of unnecessary, depending on what you're willing to believe. This is one of the few murders I can say I sort of figured out at the time it happened, though I had guesed Shannon has stabbed herself in the head. There is the hint about the stakes not being able to pierce a skull on their own, but there wasn't really any reason to think she had had a gun in that room.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:34   Link #27731
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Also, I don't think Kinzo would be stopped by Beatrice's gender.

Especially since he knows 'Lion' is a boy.

Kinzo makes love like the Greeks do.

That reminds me...urgh...of Bern remark in the Tea Party of EP7.

It just made Umineko and Kinzo ten times more creepy.

Honestly, I believe that, as Shanon is introduced to us as entirely female, it must have some meaning to implied she's NOT entirely one. At least, I believe Yasu's gender at birth is not female.

And Kinzo himself might not accept a female heir. But who knows, he at least has no objection to Jessica, maybe except the fact that she is kinda dumb.

Just a joke and a stupid doubt, but the whole story seemed to be like Ryukishi trying to come out of closet...
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:46   Link #27732
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, poor Yasuda-Clair seems unaware in the end Battler managed to understand her riddles.
Come to think of it... How did I fail to understand until now that it's exactly the same as Kinzo's use of the epitaph? He desperately wanted forgiveness, and so he believed in the magic of the epitaph to bring about a miracle. It's just like in the interview:
Quote:
Originally Posted by interview
R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven.

K That is why she painted herself as the sole culprit and wanted for Battler to solve it, right?!

R Yes. In the end, concerning those two who had a bond through mystery fiction, wether it was „I will construct those mysteries with all my might“ or „I will fight those mysteries with all my might!“, as long as they didn’t trust each other, they wouldn’t be able to do it. Umineko itself is a good example for this. People who think „Ryukishi can’t write a proper mystery“ probably won’t be able to solve it. If there is not bond of trust, then the mystery crumbles.
And so, Yasuda wrote mysteries, and hoped that Battler would solve them, and maybe from him, she might be able to obtain forgiveness. However, this doesn't make sense unless she's writing these mysteries after the incident. Otherwise, she wouldn't be feeling guilty for anything. This coincides with the fact that all of the Forgeries, even the first two, were found and/or written after the incident... And it implies that the first two were written after it as well. Not only that... It strongly implies Ikuko=Yasuda.

I still have no idea what actually happened that she felt guilty for, but... There is this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by interview
R It is an important experience for your social development to love honestly, no matter if it goes well or not. Many of today’s children, because they only know the information that „I am scared of being used. It hurts.“, decide based on that „as long as I don’t fall in love it won’t hurt and it won’t be difficult!“, which is a really strange logic I think.

K Love is really a sufficient motive even for murder, isn’t it?!

R And I think people who do not know that, will sadly never understand Umineko. Because Umineko is „the story of a single girl who arrived at that point because she imagined an incident because of the love and madness in herself“, no matter how much I express that, people who don’t share that feeling will never do so.
And now that I look back at EP5, it's there too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EP5
"......I don't...
even understand...
the emotions of love and hate."

".........You will, someday.
It can become a reason to live... and also a reason to kill."
Well, it does seem that she isn't the sole culprit, but I'm thinking she might still be a culprit now (mind you, this doesn't necessarily confirm beyond a shadow of doubt that she she did kill, but...). The question is how love led her to that point. And, if it's Battler specifically who she feels she must apologize to, why is that? I wonder, exactly what she did to him on that day. She didn't kill him, but...

Quote:
Well, I tend to think she planned for a mystery game. However I don't think she actually murdered someone on purpose.

Ryukishi said:

So it was an incident and there were more than 1 person involved.

Yasuda might have considered actually committing the murders but I think the games give plenty of hints about her not doing it in the end... sort of like Kirye who said she was ready to kill Asumu but, ops, Asumu went and died by herself so she didn't become a killer.

Though in Yasuda's case is also possible she merely didn't kill anyone because she came back to her senses, not because people died by themselves.

However we know she sent an envelope with the key to a bank account to Rudolf.
In Our Confession is hinted she planned to do this for her accomplices so she definitely bribed him for something.
At the very least, this makes me think that she didn't plan on the accomplices actually dying. And, if in fact it is the accomplices that she sent the money to, and nobody else, then that means that Kyrie and/or Rudolf, and Kumasawa, and Nanjo are confirmed for accomplices (well, Kumasawa and Nanjo already pretty much were)... But, this is all just a bunch of assumptions since I have no proof that she only sent it to accomplices or that this even applies to Prime rather than just the game board. The money in Ange's future (which I believe is Prime), might have been sent for a different reason, and not necessarily to the accomplices...

Quote:
So I think while creating the setting for her game she inadvertitely created a setting in which the siblings, who were in need of money and were squabbling among them, could have done something foolish that lead to people dying.

Due to Rudolf having been bribed he probably did something, which might or might have not been totally innocent but that caused Eva to consider him or Kirye a culprit of some sort so in her book of the single truth she wrote what happened in such a way it would lead to this interpretation.
...I know that you might not want to suspect anyone as a serial killer, but someone has to be a culprit, right? I mean, unless the bomb just got set off by accident and, oops, everyone's dead... But that's kind of... It doesn't seem to fit with the novels. After all, if that's really how it is, then it would take away a great deal of the significance of what actually happened on that day. There is no motive needed for anyone, save for an excuse on how the bomb can be accidentally triggered, but you could just say "they thought they were turning it off." Also, there would be no need for Eva to hide the truth from Ange in the first place, thereby taking all of the blame for everything.

Quote:
Basically she was trying to put herself in a situation where apparently her only way out was to have Battler solve the mystery game or something like this. Sort of like how Battler let Erika close him in a closed room he created and waited for Beato to save him. He likely knew that trick was available but let her do the job in hope for a miracle to happen.
In the same way Yasuda could have stopped the mystery game but likely in her mind didn't want to, she wanted Battler to solve it. However I don't know if in the end she waited for Battler to resque her or something persuaded her to change her plans.
EP6 does seem to be "the story of BATTLER putting himself in Yasuda's shoes," huh. I get the feeling that, on the day of the incident, her goal probably was "to get him to remember the promise" mainly. Or, if not that, then "for George to find out the truth, and hopefully accept me as I am." At the very least, Erika is not a parallel for George, because we know that Yasuda did love George. In the end, he wasn't just a replacement for Battler.

Also, I think I see why it was so important for her that he remember the promise. Maybe for Yasuda, what she wants is for "the Battler of 1980" to come for her, and if he remembers the promise, then that means that he is the Battler she loves.

Quote:
I really don't see Natsuhi as someone who's willing to kill a baby and a maid, though I think she might cover up their death with no hesitations.

Natsuhi is the one who would be willing to kill to 'protect' her family and the only time she tried to do so is against Beato in Ep 1... if that scene is telling us the truth... though it can be fantasy as well.
In the EP4 Tea Party, it's implied that this scene in EP1 was actually a gun duel between Natsuhi and Yasuda.

Quote:
Well, yes, Maria was likely willing to be killed but I think that's also due to how Yasuda described the golden land. Which doesn't really exist so Maria was tricked.
The Golden Land exists. There's no way to prove that it doesn't. Therefore, Maria wasn't tricked.

That said, Yasuda probably felt sorry for Maria. I don't think she felt that Maria's life was too sad though. After all, Maria was making the best of it. However, I think that at this point, with her mother dead, Maria might not have been able to make the best of it anymore.

On a related note, in EP4, I seem to remember that Battler found Maria's corpse in the Dining Hall, with no external wounds. How did she die? OD on sleeping pills or what? That's confusing.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yasu's sexual ambiguity exists for a reason. To the point that it takes up the bulk of Episode Seven. We all thought she was a girl by default, so there must be some meaning in bringing up "Maybe she's NOT a girl."
Let me turn that around by saying that "maybe he's NOT a boy."

But you're right, there must be a reason. I think it's because not all of her personalities are female, and thus, she's not completely either gender. Alternatively, you could theorize that Yasuda is a hermaphrodite, but that's a little weird...

Quote:
Battler contacted Yasuda at some point before the Conference, so in a fit of love and hope, Yasuda confessed EVERYTHING to him. She had no intention of hurting Natsuhi or anyone else.
=/

It's possible, but... Meh. Okay.

Quote:
That's stupid. She had the baby in her arms when it was first introduced to her, and certainly Kinzo would be like "It's a [x], name it [y]."
Kinzo was still dealing with Beatrice II's death at that time so he was back in his "They're all Beatrice I, it's just that she doesn't remember and/or can't forgive me" mode, which explains why he would have said something incomprehensible to her when she said that the baby was gone like "so she escaped again" or whatever it was, and then laughed. In short, he was too busy being insane from grief to come up with a name or mention too many details about it. He would later come up with the name Lion once he calmed down a little, but it was already too late, so he didn't get to give her that name until 1984.

Also, if the baby is wearing a diaper, then holding it does not imply that Natsuhi can see anything.

At this point, it's kind of like a Small Bombs argument, but I felt the need to say something, so.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You can make things fit if you really want to believe the baby's sex to be female, but the only hint that points to Yasu's sex being female is her gender orientation (which itself is only female leaning...). It's most elegant if Yasu's sex is male and gender is (kind of) female.
What bothers me is that the only piece of evidence that Yasuda might be a boy is this thing in EP5.

Furthermore, I could even take AuraTwilight's argument and twist it to say that since the premise for each game can be radically changed at will, Yasuda can be a male in one game and a female in another.

And one more thing. The only scenes in which Natsuhi referred to TMF19YA with a gender (phone scenes and the scene where she asked Genji if the newcomer was a guy) didn't have a Detective present and therefore can easily be thrown into the darkness of the Witch. During her confession scene at the end, I distinctly recall her referring to it as "that baby" or something. I should really go back and reread that scene though...

Last edited by Toku; 2012-02-05 at 19:57.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:53   Link #27733
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Furthermore, I could even take AuraTwilight's argument and twist it to say that since the premise for each game can be radically changed at will, Yasuda can be a male in one game and a female in another.
Oh geez, now I'm just imagining a game where it's revealed that Battler is actually a girl that was raised as a boy because lol why not and all the relatives aren't shocked by his height, but rather his sexy lady body.

The arrival party meets Kanon at the rose garden. HE HAS NO WORDS.
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Old 2012-02-05, 19:59   Link #27734
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Oh geez, now I'm just imagining a game where it's revealed that Battler is actually a girl that was raised as a boy because lol why not and all the relatives aren't shocked by his height, but rather his sexy lady body.
There is already fanart of this.
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Old 2012-02-05, 20:25   Link #27735
FirstTwilight
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Does anyone feel disgusted toward the way ep VIII characters act toward the pieces?

I mean when they play the games during the party... only Jessica seems concerned about it, the others don't care. It seems a little weird considering they were pieces them-self during ep I-IV.
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Old 2012-02-05, 20:30   Link #27736
Toku
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Does anyone feel disgusted toward the way ep VIII characters act toward the pieces?

I mean when they play the games during the party... only Jessica seems concerned about it, the others don't care. It seems a little weird considering they were pieces them-self during ep I-IV.
I think that the bottom line is that a Piece is defined as "a being on a lower plane than you." In other words, to you, they're pieces on a chessboard, so even if the enemy captures them, you won't feel bad. It's the same for the author of a story: would you grieve over the death of a character in your story? Well, you were the one who wrote it, so of course not. If you didn't want them to die, you could have just written that out of the story. If you didn't want your chess pieces to get captured, you could have just not played the game.
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Old 2012-02-05, 20:39   Link #27737
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IIRC, Yasu's age was fudged because the fall severely stunted her growth, and she looked abnormally young for her real age. It was to help her blend in better, rather than to fool Natsuhi.
... I'm not sure it really helped starting from how it made more troublesome for her to have an ID to how her young age attracted everyone's attention. Yasuda said that apart from Shannon, she never managed to make friends, not even at the Fukuin house. Natsuhi and Krauss even protest about hiring her because too young and the servants complained about her being treated differently.

It really didn't help Yasuda...

But I've no love for Genji's plan...

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-02-05 at 21:00.
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Old 2012-02-05, 20:49   Link #27738
Toku
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
... I'm not sure it really helped starting from how it made more troublesome for her to have an ID to how her young age attracted everyone's attention. Yasuda said that apart from Shannon, she never managed to make friends, not even at the Fukuin house. Natsuhi and Krauss even protest about hiring her because too young and the servants complained about her being treated differently.

It really didn't help Yasuda...

But I've no love for Genji's plan...
It doesn't matter, because 3 years wouldn't make a difference. When they look at her, they'll still see a kid who looks 6. And even if they really believed she was 9, they'd still see her as a kid who's getting special treatment.

Because Yasuda was still a member of the family, Genji wanted her to live on the island, so since adopting didn't work, he found a different way for it to happen. It probably could have been handled better, but I don't think he did a bad job with it.
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Old 2012-02-05, 21:00   Link #27739
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IIRC, Yasu's age was fudged because the fall severely stunted her growth, and she looked abnormally young for her real age. It was to help her blend in better, rather than to fool Natsuhi.
... I've checked and actually it was said:
Quote:
And to make sure that Lion wouldn't be found out easily, Genji lied about the kid's age, lowering it by 3 years.
and later:

Quote:
"If your frailness wasn't the reason... then Genji must have been careful to disguise the year of your birth. Not only Kinzo but also Natsuhi... they wouldn't easily forget the aby from 19 years ago. If a suspiciously young servant of that age came to the island, Natsuhi's woman's intuition would definitely have picked up on it."
Had the child been too sick to go to school for 3 years? Or had the age been faked, so that Natsuhi wouldn't figure everything out?
So actually Genji wouldn't explain why he lowered Yasuda's age and Will gave 2 theories, none of which is confirmed to be true.

The easiest theory to believe is that Yasuda was too sick to go to school... but somehow since Will tossed in the other theory as well I can't really disregard it... blame my love for Will... :P
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Old 2012-02-05, 21:47   Link #27740
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Quote:
Let me turn that around by saying that "maybe he's NOT a boy."

But you're right, there must be a reason. I think it's because not all of her personalities are female, and thus, she's not completely either gender. Alternatively, you could theorize that Yasuda is a hermaphrodite, but that's a little weird...
Yea, but what about LION?

My theory was that Lion was made gender-ambiguous because Yasu didn't know what gender she was born as.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
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