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Old 2012-02-06, 14:18   Link #27761
battle22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
If I offended you, then allow me to apologize, this wasn't my intention, I was simply being sarcastic, since ndgnah vn's ironic comment about EP5 was filled with b****it because of love bothered me a little. I didn't want to doubt anyone's thinking nor did I imply EP5 was easy -it's my personal hardest, after all-, and it was definitely not directed at you personally, but to the people who despise and disrespect the series as being impossible to solve, and not giving us the answers, because that's just their own unwillingess to think. That just came off by the respect I have for the series and its author, so I get quite bothered when people whine about it being impossible to solve, while the opposite has been guaranteed SOOOO many times. Again, I apologize if it came off as rude.
No, no i should be the one apologizing. I misundestood you. Sorry and i agree , I also despise people who think umineko unsolvable bull. Even if umi was unsolvable the tale still is very intresting and fun. i enjoyed it from begining to the end and i think it had quite good ending and the important parts were revealed all that's left is to solve other mystery's with out imagination and interpretations.
i went a little offtopic didnt i.. sorry .. lol
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:19   Link #27762
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
In order to know anything accurate about Battler's personality, the message bottle writer must write the stories post-incident, and even then she has only a day or two to go on, at best. Pre-incident, she cannot know anything about Battler at all. Period.
Not necessarily true. Rudolf was informed about Battler and he might have been asked how his son was doing or he might have said it without prompting.
Battler wrote to Jessica and George so more info about his life could have been leaked and if he also phoned to Jessica more than that single time we see in EP 5 it was possible to know more about him.

I'm not saying they would be perfectly accurate info but that they could be enough to not make him completely out of character.

Though I admit I've always found weird how, apart from his height, it was said more than once that Battler hadn't changed at all from when he was young (don't remember where the exact quotes were, sorry).

At first I was wondering if he could have tried to act and he behaved like when he was younger for some reason... but it's also possible that someone was writing about him and all he knew was what others told about him 'How's Battler? Oh he's fine, he's way taller then before but, apart from this he's EXACTLY the same, you'll be impressed by how he has not changed at all.'

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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
I just checked, and they call themselves Natsuhi's son and Jessica's brother. I grabbed a bunch of screencaps while I was checking, hopefully they'll be helpful.
As the caller later will tell Natsuhi he/she knows her fave season, a thing that only Shannon knew, the caller might be interested in not pointing the attention toward Shannon more than necessary. It took time for Natsuhi to remember she said so to Shannon, it could have been faster if she had to think that the caller was indeed a girl.

Besides I guess they wanted to remove the attention from Shannon who was the favourite candidate for dressing up as Beato.

It's fun though how Natsuhi never suspects Kanon. He's a boy and might be older than what he's saying.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:22   Link #27763
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Not so. It raises a critical question, which is: How did the author of End know any of this?

Hell, this applies even if Tohya wrote it. How did anyone know?
Witch Hunters wrote it to fit with the answer Erika gives, that Natsuhi is the culprit, which doesn't include TMF19YA as he is an explanation to her actions if she's not the culprit. Then Ikuko "fixed" it using Yasuda's past, so that Natsuhi was only made to look suspicious because she was blackmailed. Ikuko either figured it out or is Yasuda herself.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:26   Link #27764
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
If I offended you, then allow me to apologize, this wasn't my intention, I was simply being sarcastic, since ndgnah vn's ironic comment about EP5 was filled with b****it because of love bothered me a little. I didn't want to doubt anyone's thinking nor did I imply EP5 was easy -it's my personal hardest, after all-, and it was definitely not directed at you personally, but to the people who despise and disrespect the series as being impossible to solve, and not giving us the answers, because that's just their own unwillingess to think. That just came off by the respect I have for the series and its author, so I get quite bothered when people whine about it being impossible to solve, while the opposite has been guaranteed SOOOO many times. Again, I apologize if it came off as rude.
First, you type my name wrong.

Secondly, I don't have intention of bitching about Umineko being unsolvable here. EP 5 is quite confusing, actually the moment anyone touches it, it turned out a mess. And I was saying a point in EP5 narration: it is considered lacks of love. What is the element that Lambda games lacks in conparision with Yasu's game? There're a lot abnormalities in EP5, Kanon body problem is a big issue btw. This point has been brought up many times, so it's my fault for not clarify it here.

Admitedly, I have problem with Umineko, but mostly because of the way the author shoving his morality down my throat, and it is some kind of morality that I personally did not sympathize with. I still enjoy it, but of course, I'm one of people who feel greatly dissappointed with it after raising my expectation too high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
I just checked, and they call themselves Natsuhi's son and Jessica's brother. I grabbed a bunch of screencaps while I was checking, hopefully they'll be helpful.

Spoiler for caps:
Hm, interesting. The point here is why Genji, or the young man decided to specify their gender that way. It made no different which of them say it, they probably in it together.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:27   Link #27765
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Not necessarily true. Rudolf was informed about Battler and he might have been asked how his son was doing or he might have said it without prompting.
Battler wrote to Jessica and George so more info about his life could have been leaked and if he also phoned to Jessica more than that single time we see in EP 5 it was possible to know more about him.

I'm not saying they would be perfectly accurate info but that they could be enough to not make him completely out of character.
It doesn't really tell you how he talks, how he acts, the way he composes himself, how he behaves in an unexpected situation. Legend and Turn actually go a long way toward establishing these traits for Battler.

For example, he helps Kanon with the fertilizer in Legend. Would Battler-Prime do this? How do we know he'd do this? And more importantly, why does the writer think he would do this? Remember, we're looking not just at what Battler-Prime is like, but what Yasu-Prime thinks Battler-Prime is like.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:28   Link #27766
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Not so. It raises a critical question, which is: How did the author of End know any of this?

Hell, this applies even if Tohya wrote it. How did anyone know?
If Aura Twilight's theory about Battler posing as the man from 19 years ago to take revenge for Yasu is correct, it could be a sort of cathartic vengeance story that Tohya wrote on her behalf. Yasu may not have wanted revenge, but if Battler learned everything, he may have had moments where he wanted it, or where he even blamed Natsuhi for what happened. I know he defended Natsuhi throughout the story, but that could have been because he wanted to drag things out as long as possible.

Presumably Yasu would've had to have been the one he heard it from, and since we have no idea what happened on Rokkenjima Prime it could've happened in a number of ways. I guess he could've found Natsuhi's diary too, or Natsuhi might've admitted everything when people starting dying/she thought she was going to die.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:34   Link #27767
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
First, you type my name wrong.
Sorry about that...(Damn, and I tried so hard to get it right!)

Quote:
Secondly, I don't have intention of bitching about Umineko being unsolvable here. EP 5 is quite confusing, actually the moment anyone touches it, it turned out a mess. And I was saying a point in EP5 narration: it is considered lacks of love. What is the element that Lambda games lacks in conparision with Yasu's game? There're a lot abnormalities in EP5, Kanon body problem is a big issue btw. This point has been brought up many times, so it's my fault for not clarify it here.
I wasn't pointing fingers to anyone, personally. I just thought this comment about love was ironic, so I replied with sarcasm. I agree that EP5 is really confusing, and that's certainly because there is a lack of love. Again, let me apologize for misunderstanding the aim of your post, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Quote:
Admitedly, I have problem with Umineko, but mostly because of the way the author shoving his morality down my throat, and it is some kind of morality that I personally did not sympathize with. I still enjoy it, but of course, I'm one of people who feel greatly dissappointed with it after raising my expectation too high.
All pieces of literature do present their own morality, that doesn't mean the reader has to accept it. Literature is the art through which a writer presents his soul to the readers, and present their beliefs. It should be a choice wether to agree with them or not. Obviously, you can't sympathize with all pieces of morality presented in a huge work like Umineko.

I don't see how EP8 could be disappointing. In my opinion it was the perfect closure to an outsanding piece of work like Umineko, but then again, opinions on that may vary greatly from person to person, so that's just my personal view.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:24   Link #27768
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
All pieces of literature do present their own morality, that doesn't mean the reader has to accept it. Literature is the art through which a writer presents his soul to the readers, and present their beliefs. It should be a choice wether to agree with them or not. Obviously, you can't sympathize with all pieces of morality presented in a huge work like Umineko.

I don't see how EP8 could be disappointing. In my opinion it was the perfect closure to an outsanding piece of work like Umineko, but then again, opinions on that may vary greatly from person to person, so that's just my personal view.
Because some people reject the author's morality to the point that they believe that evil won. "Evil wins" is not good closure to certain people.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:30   Link #27769
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It doesn't really tell you how he talks, how he acts, the way he composes himself, how he behaves in an unexpected situation. Legend and Turn actually go a long way toward establishing these traits for Battler.

For example, he helps Kanon with the fertilizer in Legend. Would Battler-Prime do this? How do we know he'd do this? And more importantly, why does the writer think he would do this? Remember, we're looking not just at what Battler-Prime is like, but what Yasu-Prime thinks Battler-Prime is like.
Yasu knew how Battler was 6 years ago. If she was told he was unchanged... or better that his character was still the same she would have written him thinking at how 12 years Battler would act.

If it's true that Battler is still the same she would have a fair chance to guess right.

Though actually no one can know exactly how another person would act. You can make polite and possibly right guesses and it gets easier if you know that person well but it's pretty hard to pin someone down perfectly.

Battler is a helpful, playful guy who really don't mind much things like class differences and can get pretty sympathetic. If he was like this when he was a child and Yasu was told he's unchanged she would portray him this way.

In Ep 1 Battler says
Quote:
I hate guys who make the waitress pick up the fork they dropped at a restaurant
if this was how Battler thought as a kid and he's not changed Yasu would write him like this.

Though I've been wondering if it's possible that EP 1 (& 2) isn't a message bottle but a forgery written to look like a message bottle.

There were 2 messages found, however they weren't EP 1 & 2. Ep 1 & 2 were forgeries Ikuko wrote and let Toya read and that she tried to make look as if they were message bottles. Banquet instead was written with his help.

This would allow:
- message bottles to be written prior to the incident.
- games would be written post incident and therefore more accurate.

Though the theory for this is merely based on the fact the first tale of Ikuko that Toya read contained elements that are in Umineko...

It could be a coincidence though.
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:02   Link #27770
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Well... i think it is more like she portrays him like someone who likes to joke around very much. Remember, that this trait is critical for the question:

"Has Battler remembered his promise to Shannon in Prime, or not?"

EP7 implied, that Yasuda was quite sure that Battler in fact, forgot the promise, or better said, he never really took these words he said back then seriously.

But we cannot be sure, when Legend and Turn were written. The fact, that Eva also dies, implies, that these 2 forgeries were created before the prime rokkenjima incident. So maybe Battler from Legend & Turn (and maybe even Meta!Battler) was only "created" by Yasuda, as she imagined him.

Also if we apply Genius!BATTLER, then it doesn't make sense, that he turned from someone who uses "small bombs theories" into a "Yagami Light" all of a sudden.

So my guess is, that at the EP5-"???"-tea party, when Tohya remembered all the lost memories, he also remembered, what the real Battler was like.
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:05   Link #27771
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We know there's something deeper to Battler, though, because if nothing else we have the fact that he left his family in disgust 6 years prior. Whatever his attitude before that point, that's a very strong action and to maintain it for that long is quite surprising. It speaks to a depth of emotional turmoil in Battler that is not easy even for his family members to address. Bear in mind he didn't have a whole lot of contact with anyone in his family, so you have a lot of loose second or third-hand information.

If someone who sees Battler two times a year says he hasn't changed to a person who had an intimate relationship with him of a sort that nobody else knew, is it accurate to say he really hasn't changed?
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:07   Link #27772
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Quote:
All pieces of literature do present their own morality, that doesn't mean the reader has to accept it. Literature is the art through which a writer presents his soul to the readers, and present their beliefs. It should be a choice wether to agree with them or not. Obviously, you can't sympathize with all pieces of morality presented in a huge work like Umineko.

I don't see how EP8 could be disappointing. In my opinion it was the perfect closure to an outsanding piece of work like Umineko, but then again, opinions on that may vary greatly from person to person, so that's just my personal view.
There's a difference, though, between "This is what I believe," "This is what I believe and you should agree with me," and "This is what I believe and you are an evil moron for disagreeing with me." The third one is what Ryukishi decided to take.
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:11   Link #27773
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Just curious here, what specifically are the things that Ryukishi put in Umineko, that you guys don't agree with?
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:51   Link #27774
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yasu knew how Battler was 6 years ago. If she was told he was unchanged... or better that his character was still the same she would have written him thinking at how 12 years Battler would act.

If it's true that Battler is still the same she would have a fair chance to guess right.
It's actually a little disappointing that there's not much of a difference in how he's portrayed in episodes 1-2 versus episodes 3 onwards. Episode 5 is the only time we really see a different Battler. There's so much meta in 6-8 it's hard to evaluate Battler's game board portrayal.

It could indeed be that Battler just hasn't changed much (except for the lack of interest in mysteries), but it would've been a neat hint, and I'm interested in anything that gives me a better idea of what happened in R-Prime.

For all episode 8 went on about how it's better to hush up the truth, the actual games seemed to portray the exact opposite. Eva was miserable and was probably driven to an early grave. Ange was miserable, had a death wish, and was completely obsessed with the truth. The sketchy money thing led family members of victims to believe they had a greater involvement in the crimes than they actually did.

And what good did it really do? If Kyrie and Rudolf were the killers, Ange was still tormented by that via her classmates, and was never able to gain any closure. If George was the killer, I can see why Eva did what she did, but it didn't seem to benefit her or any other survivors. And if it was Yasu, then what was the point? Hushing up Kinzo's incestuous tendencies for the sake of protecting the Ushiromiya family name?

If the truth had been revealed, the public probably would've lost interest, the friends and family of the victims would've gotten closure, Eva might have been able to move on from the tragedy, Ange and Eva probably would've had a better relationship, and Ange would've been able to move on sooner.

The game doesn't back up Ryukishi's moralizing. I feel like his reasons for not wanting the truth to be revealed were different than what was presented. I actually agree with some of what he's said in interviews- like not wanting to lift up Yasu's skirt and explicitly state what's under there to preserve the character's dignity- but a lot of other stuff ranges from really strange to flat out offensive. If he ever chose to release a "Hearts of Darkness" style tale about Umineko, I would very much like to read it.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:14   Link #27775
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If the truth had been revealed, the public probably would've lost interest, the friends and family of the victims would've gotten closure, Eva might have been able to move on from the tragedy, Ange and Eva probably would've had a better relationship, and Ange would've been able to move on sooner.
That very much depends on what the truth is. You can't make a theory like this unless you know.

Rather, because we don't know, we should make a theory that satisfies all of the conditions. In other words, a theory where, if the truth was revealed, it would be worse.

Some things we do know are:
-If Ange found out about the truth, her reaction would be negative to the point where she would refuse to believe it, and might have chosen suicide if she couldn't deny it.
-Eva was hiding it, presumably for the above reason (but not necessarily). In particular, Eva is not a culprit. R07 confirmed this in his interview.
-There are multiple culprits. Yasuda might be one of them.
-As a reaction to the incident, Yasuda felt guilty enough to paint herself as the sole culprit (again, confirmed in the interview). She also ended up using the mysteries she wrote in the same way that Kinzo used the epitaph: she hoped that Battler might solve it, and through this, she might obtain a miracle of forgiveness.
-Therefore, Yasuda did something that would make her feel very guilty. Whether it was murder or not, we don't know, but it certainly could have been. It also needs to be something that concerns Battler to the point where she would desire forgiveness from him specifically.
-Yasuda's motive has a lot to do with her inner conflict over George and Battler, and her love for them. Interestingly enough, R07 doesn't even mention Jessica a single time when talking about this, so she might not be part of it at all.
-The bomb did go off. The who and why, are things we can only speculate on.
-Eva and Battler survived. It's possible that Yasuda did as well. We have no reason to believe that anyone else survived, but it's still possible that at least one other could have.

That's about all I can think of.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:21   Link #27776
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That very much depends on what the truth is. You can't make a theory like this unless you know.
And whose fault is that? I'm not the one hiding the truth. None of us are. One person bore that responsibility, and he's not talking.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:24   Link #27777
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Regardless of the importance of truth vs. preservation of dignity public revealblahblahblah, my biggest problem is that Ange, Toya, and Ikuko have SOME idea of what the truth is and their position is pretty much 'fuck everyone else'. What about the cop who just wanted to know who was guilty for the sake of truth? Gohda's mom? Jessica's friends from school? Natsuhi's birth relatives? These may or may not be people whose existence Ange, Toya, or Ikuko know about, but they're victims too. In fact, take Ep 4 into account. Ange/Toya KNOWS that there are others hurting because they don't know what happened(Kawabata the boat captian, Kumasawa's family, Nanjo Jr. especially), but they must forgot them or something. They're not the main players in this story, so why care? Disregarding everything else, that's the one thing I cannot agree on R07 with on any level.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:29   Link #27778
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And whose fault is that? I'm not the one hiding the truth. None of us are. One person bore that responsibility, and he's not talking.
Of course it's not our fault that the truth isn't revealed. I was simply saying that we shouldn't assume that everything would turn out for the better if the truth was revealed, because that would mean that there is no reason to hide the truth.

I don't think it's necessarily R07's responsibility to tell us everything though. He said he put all of his effort into creating the riddle of Umineko, and that he wants us to challenge it in the same way. If the answer is given so easily, it will end up everywhere on the internet, and people will just go look it up instead of thinking. So he hid it.

But how can he make it any plainer that it is, in fact, possible for all of us to reach that truth if we put forth the effort? He's already said it so many times, in so many different ways, but if you don't believe it, then there's nothing to be done about that.

On the other hand, he has said that he plans on gradually giving out the truth. Of course, you're free to also believe that this is a lie, but... You could also take it as yet another guarantee that there is a single truth and that we can reach it.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:37   Link #27779
Misuzu
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That very much depends on what the truth is. You can't make a theory like this unless you know.
But the game didn't show anyone being made happier by the truth not being revealed. Everyone was absolutely miserable. And in the end, Ange found peace after she learned the truth.

I think a story could've been written in which characters were happier with the truth being hidden. I just don't think Umineko was that sort of story at all, and it's kind of fascinating (and frustrating) that that seems to be the big message of the game.
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Old 2012-02-06, 17:43   Link #27780
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We know there's something deeper to Battler, though, because if nothing else we have the fact that he left his family in disgust 6 years prior. Whatever his attitude before that point, that's a very strong action and to maintain it for that long is quite surprising. It speaks to a depth of emotional turmoil in Battler that is not easy even for his family members to address. Bear in mind he didn't have a whole lot of contact with anyone in his family, so you have a lot of loose second or third-hand information.

If someone who sees Battler two times a year says he hasn't changed to a person who had an intimate relationship with him of a sort that nobody else knew, is it accurate to say he really hasn't changed?
The problem is: has he actually changed?
In the ways that might matter to his portray in Umineko I mean.
To use your example, in the past would he have refused to help a servant that caused something to fall?
Even if we go and say: oh but Rudolf wasn't really aware of how Battler was and said so just randomly, as long as what he said is exact the result is still fitting.

All the episodes from 1 to 4 portray a Battler that has confirmed to be the same as he was before by the other characters. Yasuda didn't have to invent anything about him, all she had to do was making him taller and giving him a high school student knowledge and then portray him as he was when he was 12.

If 12 year old Battler and 18 year old Battler were to be very different it would be possible to assume she needed first hand knowledge for an accurate portrayal but if they're the same it gets a lot easier.
Plus after the crimes start whatever out of character behaviour he might have can be justified with 'he was traumatized so he did X instead than Y'.

Actually I was suspicious because I found weird he stayed the same... but Banquet and Alliance were surely written post incident and Battler's characterization is the same as the one he has in the 2 first stories so I'll say either it was confirmed he was like that or it wasn't denied strongly enough and that became Battler's portrayal in all the forgeries.
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