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Old 2009-10-31, 07:59   Link #2761
scwizard
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If Erika searched the room, the three extra season cards would have been found. Not sure if she did though.
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Old 2009-10-31, 11:12   Link #2762
Geekodot
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About how to get in an unknown person X on Rokkenjima, I lay down the following theory:

After the first six people is killed at the first twilight in every game, an unknown person X can sneek onto the island and it will still satisfy the condition of less than 17 people (18 with Erika) existing on the island at the same time.

This will explain most incidents because the person X can be anywhere and do anything.
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Old 2009-10-31, 11:20   Link #2763
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
About how to get in an unknown person X on Rokkenjima, I lay down the following theory:

After the first six people is killed at the first twilight in every game, an unknown person X can sneek onto the island and it will still satisfy the condition of less than 17 people (18 with Erika) existing on the island at the same time.

This will explain most incidents because the person X can be anywhere and do anything.
I have actually thought about a submarine staging in the hidden port and whenever someone was killed then some people come to Rukkenjima (this explained the goatmen?)

I cast this theory away long time ago.
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Old 2009-10-31, 11:38   Link #2764
Geekodot
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I have actually thought about a submarine staging in the hidden port and whenever someone was killed then some people come to Rukkenjima (this explained the goatmen?)

I cast this theory away long time ago.
Someone is hiding outside the island in every game and after the mastermind culprit conducts the first twilight by themselves at a time when almost no one got alibies, they sneak onto the island.

Dead people does not count as still existing on the island because Beatrice said Kinzo is already dead at the starting time of all games. By now I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island. I will lower that by one for Kinzo. No more than 17 humans exist on the island. This applies to all games. However Kinzo's corpse is still on the island. In short, when people die, they cease to exist and my theory is possible.

This can also satisfy Knox rules which say that a killer has to be someone already introduced by claiming that the mastermind is one of the original 18 or that the killers coming onto the island is someone who is namedropped, but haven't appeared or someone from outside the island, but we still know about.


Anyone from the world of 1998 would fit in that description and so would the two servants we have heard about, but haven't seen yet.
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Old 2009-10-31, 11:39   Link #2765
mizou
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person X is not allowed, because it violate knox rules
the culpirit is one of the characters we have seen
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Old 2009-10-31, 11:41   Link #2766
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by mizou View Post
person X is not allowed, because it violate knox rules
the culpirit is one of the characters we have seen
It can still be someone who is namedropped, but not seen or someone from 1998 so person X isn't completely ruled out.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:01   Link #2767
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Even if person X is possible I don't like that explanation. I hope that it turns out to be someone we've seen and have been given clues about all along.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:11   Link #2768
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Even if person X is possible I don't like that explanation. I hope that it turns out to be someone we've seen and have been given clues about all along.
A person X must exist at some point in order to have murders done by humans. In Episode 1 for example. Kanon is killed in the boiler room while no one among the humans we know could have killed him and he was neither killed in a trap nor an accident.

However someone among the 18 we know most likely has it planned beforehand and the person X is just an accomplice in order to fool people into thinking that the witch is the murderer. This is because someone has to kill the first 6 while there is no person X on the island. Hopefully that made sense xD.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:28   Link #2769
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
A person X must exist at some point in order to have murders done by humans. In Episode 1 for example. Kanon is killed in the boiler room while no one among the humans we know could have killed him and he was neither killed in a trap nor an accident.

However someone among the 18 we know most likely has it planned beforehand and the person X is just an accomplice in order to fool people into thinking that the witch is the murderer. This is because someone has to kill the first 6 while there is no person X on the island. Hopefully that made sense xD.
What if he was faking his death?
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:31   Link #2770
Ssol
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No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon.

It's impossible for person X to have killed Kanon as the red text would be violated. I think the most accepted theory is that is he did not die in the boiler room.

The idea of person X entering the island after the first twilight is difficult since there is a storm. But since Erika made it I guess it's possible.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:31   Link #2771
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
What if he was faking his death?
The identity of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed.

Which means that people can't fake their death in the first game.

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
No kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon.

It's impossible for person X to have killed Kanon as the red text would be violated. I think the most accepted theory is that is he did not die in the boiler room.

The idea of person X entering the island after the first twilight is difficult since there is a storm. But since Erika made it I guess it's possible.
Someone DID plunge a stake into his chest in the boiler room though and everyone had confirmed alibies except person X. This was confirmed because Battler did see Kanon injured when they all went down there.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:35   Link #2772
lubczyk
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Ok, I'm just gotten to End of the Golden Witch and I have a question concerning the concept of "anti-fantasy" and "anti-mystery."

Spoiler for VN 5: End of the Golden Witch:
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:42   Link #2773
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
The identity of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed.

Which means that people can't fake their death in the first game.
No, that only means they can't use a dummy corpse to fake their death. If a person's death wasn't stated in red and Battler didn't observe the body and confirm its death, that person could still be alive. The red you cited doesn't apply if there's no actual corpse involved.

In the case of Kanon, it's possible for him to fake his death with the cooperation of Nanjo and Jessica. He wasn't observed after they took him away for treatment, so we only have their word that he actually died. He may not even have been wounded. Battler saw a lot of blood, but the stake wasn't actually stabbed into Kanon's body, so that could have been faked with red paint.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:56   Link #2774
Ssol
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
Ok, I'm just gotten to End of the Golden Witch and I have a question concerning the concept of "anti-fantasy" and "anti-mystery."

Spoiler for VN 5: End of the Golden Witch:
No one knows what type of content episode 6 and beyond will contain. We can only speculate.

Episodes 1 - 4 did not prove that magic does not exist. Episode 5 showed us the game board from a different point of view but gave stronger hints that the magic world is nothing more than an illusion. In the end, it all depends on your definition of what magic is.
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Old 2009-10-31, 12:56   Link #2775
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
No, that only means they can't use a dummy corpse to fake their death. If a person's death wasn't stated in red and Battler didn't observe the body and confirm its death, that person could still be alive. The red you cited doesn't apply if there's no actual corpse involved.

In the case of Kanon, it's possible for him to fake his death with the cooperation of Nanjo and Jessica. He wasn't observed after they took him away for treatment, so we only have their word that he actually died. He may not even have been wounded. Battler saw a lot of blood, but the stake wasn't actually stabbed into Kanon's body, so that could have been faked with red paint.
And for the rest of the game, Kanon's whereabouts are unknown so a person X isn't necessary.

However, Eva and Hideyoshi has to be killed by a person X.

In the case of Eva and Hideyoshi, a person X knocked on the door, was accepted into the room for whatever reason and then murdered Eva and Hideyoshi. After that, he set the chain and hid somewhere until the room was no longer a locked room.
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Old 2009-10-31, 13:20   Link #2776
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In germany there are also males called Maria, and it's Ryuukishi, so I wouldn't worry about whether they are options or not
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Old 2009-10-31, 13:38   Link #2777
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
And for the rest of the game, Kanon's whereabouts are unknown so a person X isn't necessary.

However, Eva and Hideyoshi has to be killed by a person X.

In the case of Eva and Hideyoshi, a person X knocked on the door, was accepted into the room for whatever reason and then murdered Eva and Hideyoshi. After that, he set the chain and hid somewhere until the room was no longer a locked room.
There are tons of holes in that locked room that don't require a person X. Battler and the cousins were the last to arrive on the scene, so we don't have any idea what the others were doing before then, or at which point the chain was cut. Since Kinzo's corpse had to have been burned before the second twilight was found, it's possible that the whole sequence of actions taken by the servants, starting with Genji and Kanon finding the door locked and continuing up until Battler arrived on the scene, was partially or completely false. For instance, if one the servants arrived alone after the chain was cut, the trick of slipping out of the closet to rejoin the others could have been used.

Also, Shannon's death isn't confirmed any more than Kanon's is. She could have been feigning death when the first twilight was discovered. Her supposed corpse was out of sight in the back of the shed, and wasn't directly observed by Battler. She may have been examined by Nanjo, Hideyoshi, or Kanon, but it's not clear how closely they looked, or if any of them could be accomplices.
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Old 2009-10-31, 13:49   Link #2778
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
There are tons of holes in that locked room that don't require a person X. Battler and the cousins were the last to arrive on the scene, so we don't have any idea what the others were doing before then, or at which point the chain was cut. Since Kinzo's corpse had to have been burned before the second twilight was found, it's possible that the whole sequence of actions taken by the servants, starting with Genji and Kanon finding the door locked and continuing up until Battler arrived on the scene, was partially or completely false. For instance, if one the servants arrived alone after the chain was cut, the trick of slipping out of the closet to rejoin the others could have been used.

Also, Shannon's death isn't confirmed any more than Kanon's is. She could have been feigning death when the first twilight was discovered. Her supposed corpse was out of sight in the back of the shed, and wasn't directly observed by Battler. She may have been examined by Nanjo, Hideyoshi, or Kanon, but it's not clear how closely they looked, or if any of them could be accomplices.
Sorry, but I have already thought about that theory for the Eva and Hideyoshi and the time doesn't match up. If I remember correctly, you could see that a few hours had passed since their death which means that when Genji discovered the chained door, they were already dead. Also if that scene was fake as well and they were actually murdered much earlier, the whole room was left in such a way that anyone could discover it and it would be a high chance that it would therefore ruin the closed room trick if it were planned by the servants.

Also, whether Shannon is dead or alive doesn't matter, because she was certainly in the shed and Natsuhi placed another padlock on it and kept the key herself, so everyone inside the shed was locked in.

Of course, none of these are decisive proof that your theory couldn't happen, but seen from the killer's perspective, having an unknown person there to do it would be a much better way to commit the murders with less chance of noise in the closed room tricks.

And here is another reason for why an unknown person X must exist in the first game:

Natsuhi was killed by another person. There are no unidentified corpses and all the survivors have alibies.

By "survivors" she means those who are left of the original 17 and therefore an unknown killer X is not counted among the survivors.

Last edited by Geekodot; 2009-10-31 at 14:14.
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Old 2009-10-31, 14:32   Link #2779
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
Sorry, but I have already thought about that theory for the Eva and Hideyoshi and the time doesn't match up. If I remember correctly, you could see that a few hours had passed since their death which means that when Genji discovered the chained door, they were already dead. Also if that scene was fake as well and they were actually murdered much earlier, the whole room was left in such a way that anyone could discover it and it would be a high chance that it would therefore ruin the closed room trick if it were planned by the servants.
We were shown a scene at 7pm with Eva and Hideyoshi alive and talking to each other in their room. Their deaths were discovered before 8pm, so based on that they were dead less than an hour.

But I wasn't suggesting that all of the servants were in on it anyway. If some of them were busy burning Kinzo's body, then it's possible that contrary to what we saw, one of them had actually separated from the others and killed Eva and Hideyoshi. Then when the others discovered the bodies, this lone servant could slip out of the closet, which is in a blind spot relative to where the bodies were, and pretend to have come in through the door after everyone else.

Anyway, a mysterious person X wouldn't know where Natsuhi and the servants stashed Kinzo's body, right?

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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
Also, whether Shannon is dead or alive doesn't matter, because she was certainly in the shed and Natsuhi placed another padlock on it and kept the key herself, so everyone inside the shed was locked in.
Are you saying an accomplice couldn't have gotten the wire cutters from the boiler room and snapped the lock off, like Battler did in Episode 4?

You can also make a (kind of sickening) argument that the end of the passage to Kuwadorian is in the garden shed. It doesn't have to be a secret passage, since Battler as the detective didn't actually search the shed looking for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
And here is another reason for why an unknown person X must exist in the first game:

Natsuhi was killed by another person. There are no unidentified corpses and all the survivors have alibies.

By "survivors" she means the original 18 (or 17 as the case is for the first 4 games) and therefore an unknown killer X is not counted among the survivors.
By "alibi" she means a reason why they supposedly couldn't have committed the crime. An alibi can be false. For instance, two people who've committed murder can provide alibis for each other by saying they were together somewhere else.

Alternately, by "survivors" she means the people who Battler believes are the survivors. After all, Kanon almost certainly isn't dead, and he doesn't have an alibi.
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Old 2009-10-31, 14:36   Link #2780
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Being "dead" at the time of the murder is a great alibi.
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