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Old 2012-02-07, 20:15   Link #27801
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
My apologies, I thought you were referring to this interview since you mentioned something about EP7 demonstrating that Van Dine is not applicable, which is in the interview I linked.

If you happen to find more interviews, please share them, I'd love to read them myself. This is the only interview with Ryukishi that I've read.
Here's some others I remember reading previously on the "Witch Hunters" livejournal (though they are re-translated and summarized from Chinese) of earlier Keiya/R07 interviews. Mind you these are all older, pre-Chiru ones.

http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/6828.html
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7134.html
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7366.html
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7562.html

Plus they have this other r07 translation on the subject of Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy:
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/5724.html
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Old 2012-02-07, 21:15   Link #27802
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I know that whatever her plan was, it probably gave her plenty of reason to want to apologize, but I was wondering why it's Battler specifically that she seems to want forgiveness from.
Well, there can be many reasons.
For example, if Battler never meant to make a promise in the first place and she merely mistook his words for a promise he's not to blame for not keeping it.
He meant no harm to her nor had any particular wish to die or to commit love-suicide so holding him responsible or causing him pain or causing his demise was unfair.

It can also be that Battler actually meant everything he said, he also wanted to return back but couldn't for serious reasons and when he finally managed to do so he believed she didn't take him seriously and found another boyfriend so he pretended not to remember of her and she found out that she had only herself to blame if he didn't tell her 'Shannon, sorry if I'm late but I came to take you away as I promised'.

And I can think up many other theories but I can't really prove any of them without knowing what happened in Prime.
I think the key point is that, contrary to her belief/fear, Battler was in love with her 6 years ago and still arboured feelings for her so if she had handled things differently things could have gone differently.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I'd appreciate it if people stop saying that "her actions caused other people to commit murder" because, well, everyone has their own free will. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, that's the very concept of free will if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying that she had no reason to feel guilty but, for example, if Rosa went nuts and shot several people because she became paranoid and wanted to protect Maria, I am not going to blame that on Yasuda. Rosa pulled that trigger herself, not Yasuda.
I'm not really holding her responsible if people decided to go around killing if... let's say, she showed them the gold.
Though her responsibility increases if she let them believe there was a mad serial killer around them and they went paranoid.
I won't say that, to use your example, Rosa isn't to blame but if she placed them in a situation in which they believed that self defence was their only way to survive... well, I wouldn't expect them to sit there and wait for the killer to kill them. Even if they shouldn't retort to killing... fear might have made believe there was no other option than kill or be killed.
So if that's what she made I believe she is guilty.
However if she just said 'oh, I want to make a murder game where no one will die for real, please help me' and someone said 'cool, I'll use this as excuse to kill X', well, although she inadvertitely gave the culprit the means to kill I don't really think she's to blame.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
This is an interesting theory, and it seems that most people believe it (I could be wrong on that). I myself don't plan on subscribing to any theory about Yasuda's plan until I know what her motive was, but you're right when you say that this is definitely a possibility.
Well, Ryukishi seems to insist it was due to love... though I think that if he were to explain it better it would be apprecciated.
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Old 2012-02-07, 22:07   Link #27803
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Here are the excerpts I mentioned before I would upload. I don't think Umineko is necessarily related to any of it, but it's an interesting and fun read nonetheless, I think.

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-02-08, 03:10   Link #27804
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George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. How could they be playing dead with their necks sliced open like that?
How do you explain this? who moved those corpses? was it Krauss?
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Old 2012-02-08, 03:40   Link #27805
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. How could they be playing dead with their necks sliced open like that?
How do you explain this? who moved those corpses? was it Krauss?
A misquote. It's actually...

"George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. How could they be playing dead with their necks sliced open like that?"
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Old 2012-02-08, 03:48   Link #27806
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
A misquote. It's actually...

"George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji really are dead. How could they be playing dead with their necks sliced open like that?"
oh thank god. then its clear lol.
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Old 2012-02-08, 08:19   Link #27807
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Maybe Battler doesn't really know what happened... after all everything that happened, only happened from his own perspective. On prime, i doubt that he overheard the conversation of the adults, maybe he didn't even witness any killings/deaths, or only some of them.

Maybe Battler found the tunnels early/solved the epitaph and got lost in the tunnels for the whole time so he didn't get to know anything...

Well what i want to say is, that maybe "The Truth" only means, what BATTLER wants Ange to believe in: "The truth is not important".

But... really that would be way too... well... cheesy.
Well, one of the thing I wonder is what kind of truth would be so bad that Battler could not show his sister (And if I'm not wrong, returns Ange to a help of flesh and blood after reading it...).

It might be that Battler is the culprit. It might be her whole family did kill everyone. But it also could be that her family has died in one meaningless accident.

No, it's not just "Ange cannot deal with it", it might be "Battler/Toya cannot deal with it ". So he took an easy way and use the reason "protecting Ange" to escape from his burden. That's just my interpretation though.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I like to think that BATTLER is a construct of Ange's imagination, and he can't tell her anything she doesn't already know. But he doesn't want to admit that because then he'll smash the fuck out of him like she did to the Stakes in EP4.
And I always think that ANGE is a construct of Battler/Toya's imagination...Anything could be possible I guess.

Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2012-02-08 at 08:29.
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Old 2012-02-08, 08:55   Link #27808
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Sorry about the double post. I thought I was just editing, but somehow this turn ups.



About the morality, I suddenly think of one posssibility…From the record of Witch Hunt about their meeting with Ryukishi, he seemed to be quite unaware of his overseas fanbase and their reaction.

So I wonder is there any difference in Japan and Western’s point of view about the truth? I’m not a Japanese myself and not very familiar with their culture, so I’m not sure is it in their society, it’s more acceptable to bottle thing up.

And does anybody know how Japanese reader view the whole story? How do they react to the story and especially its ending?

Admitedly, it still don’t make the whole hiding the truth more acceptable …
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Old 2012-02-08, 11:30   Link #27809
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Admitedly, it still donít make the whole hiding the truth more acceptable Ö
Well, considering it's a game and all...
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Old 2012-02-08, 11:42   Link #27810
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Well... about hiding the truth: I really think now that EP8 is only playing in Ange's head. Although i wouldn't exclude that "twilight of the golden witch" was really released, but which only consists of the "Ange going to rokkejima" part and/or the "pure mystery gameboard" part of Bern.

Ikuko actually DID plan to release the book of one truth, but at some point she decided to take it back. Why? Maybe because the book is subjective and its content is partly different, than what Tohya remembered? In that case maybe Battler's and Eva's viewpoints contradicted eachother and Ikuko was afraid of telling the people a "half truth" which is known as the "most dangerous lie".

Of course then you could say: Why didn't Tohya reveal himself to the public? Well this one is easy to answer:

1. Tohya would have to deal with the media for a longer time and maybe people would say that he is a liar or not even believe that he really is Battler.

2. Too much interviews about "someone else's memories" + brain damage = Death. Only talking to one person about his memories, or even just thinking about it already forced him into a wheel chair, guess what happens if the stress of talking to thousands of people comes into play.


So by going with witch-ending-Ange, where we could say quite sure, that she had no access to the book of one truth, the morality was not that "hiding the truth is the only good way", but more like "Even if you fail at finding the truth you must go on".


However this is only my interpretation, which i admit is a bit optimistic. Of course i have no way of telling what Ryukishi's real "message" is, but it was said many times in Umineko, that a riddle/mystery only works, if the reader is able to understand, or..."love" the author, right?
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Old 2012-02-09, 09:54   Link #27811
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Well, one of the thing I wonder is what kind of truth would be so bad that Battler could not show his sister (And if I'm not wrong, returns Ange to a help of flesh and blood after reading it...).

It might be that Battler is the culprit. It might be her whole family did kill everyone. But it also could be that her family has died in one meaningless accident.

No, it's not just "Ange cannot deal with it", it might be "Battler/Toya cannot deal with it ". So he took an easy way and use the reason "protecting Ange" to escape from his burden. That's just my interpretation though.




And I always think that ANGE is a construct of Battler/Toya's imagination...Anything could be possible I guess.
I think he doesn't show her because if she mustn't learn the Single Truth. She must accept magic if she wants to bring everyone back to her. Accordingly, if Ange doesn't accept magic, then her meeting with Toya never happens. But if she does, everything is purified, and everyone is united again.
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Old 2012-02-09, 13:13   Link #27812
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I think he doesn't show her because if she mustn't learn the Single Truth. She must accept magic if she wants to bring everyone back to her. Accordingly, if Ange doesn't accept magic, then her meeting with Toya never happens. But if she does, everything is purified, and everyone is united again.
I think Battler's purpose was to prepare her for the 'truth' contained in the book, not to deny her the truth forever.
While the single truth might be true, we've no info about it being complete or subjective.

If Eva wrote 'I saw Kirye shooting at Rosa' while this might be true might miss parts, for example 'I saw Kirye shooting at Rosa because she wanted to stop her from shooting at Rudolf.' because Eva might have not known WHY Kirye was shooting.

So, even if the book of the one truth tell the truth, we can still reject it because we can think 'I trust Kirye wouldn't shoot at Rosa without a very good reason'.

However Ange is seriously depressed and she plans to kill herself after discovering the truth so she might not be in the right state of mind to think 'hey, maybe aunt Eva saw this but had no idea mom had a reason for doing what she did' in fact, as soon as she read the truth she... well meets a sad ending until she ends up back in her relatives' arms.

Though this is my interpretation.
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Old 2012-02-09, 19:21   Link #27813
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If Eva wrote 'I saw Kirye shooting at Rosa' while this might be true might miss parts, for example 'I saw Kirye shooting at Rosa because she wanted to stop her from shooting at Rudolf.' because Eva might have not known WHY Kirye was shooting.
Be that as it may, if we go by the glimpses of the Diary shown to us in EP8, Eva gave a rather full account of her experience during the conference, and while it should, logically, be limited to her perspective, I think the diary as a whole could paint a picture that's more complete than not. Sure, she may not know WHY Kyrie was shooting, but we can also make inferences based on what she witnessed before that, and afterwards, and what may have been said between any two parties. Did Rosa have a weapon in her hand? Was Rudolf in the room? Why was Eva in the room? What time did the shooting happen? Etc etc etc.

I do like the idea of BATTLER using his game to prepare Ange for the truth, though - it certainly makes him less of an ass than if he were just trying to keep it from her. I still agree with Erika, though, that he should have tried to communicate his intentions more clearly, so Ange wouldn't have just dismissed his game outright. :-/
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Old 2012-02-09, 20:48   Link #27814
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Be that as it may, if we go by the glimpses of the Diary shown to us in EP8, Eva gave a rather full account of her experience during the conference, and while it should, logically, be limited to her perspective, I think the diary as a whole could paint a picture that's more complete than not. Sure, she may not know WHY Kyrie was shooting, but we can also make inferences based on what she witnessed before that, and afterwards, and what may have been said between any two parties. Did Rosa have a weapon in her hand? Was Rudolf in the room? Why was Eva in the room? What time did the shooting happen? Etc etc etc.
Well, undoubtely knowing what's in the diary would help but it's unlikely Eva witnessed everything that happened and it's possible her interpretation was mislead.
Rudolf & Kirye likely were bribed by Yasuda to take part to her 'game'. This could have caused them to do something suspicious/compromising without actually meaning to kill someone. Mind you, I'm not discounting the possibility they actually coldly murdered everyone, I'm just saying that Eva's perspective might have been manipulated.

Also there's Ep 7 which describes how in the military base after the fight started fear took control of many soldiers who even ended up shooting their own believing they were enemies.

Honestly I would have said the most easy to get impressed in a mystery game is Rosa, not Eva, due to the fact she witnessed Beatrice II's death... and possibly Natsuhi due to her guilt for the incident with the baby, but Eva is shown in 2 episodes as being responsible of an accidental discharge and if this happened and someone actually died she might have lost her cool.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I still agree with Erika, though, that he should have tried to communicate his intentions more clearly, so Ange wouldn't have just dismissed his game outright. :-/
Well, he gave Ange the key, so I want to think once he told her what he had to say, he would have let her free to use it in a sort of like Will's fashion.
He let Lion know the truth about the other Kakera, though he admitted as a friend he believed it would be better for Lion not to know it.

I like to think Battler too would have told Ange 'I'll prefer you not to open the book but if you want I won't stop you' once he had finished showing her his game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I still agree with Erika, though, that he should have tried to communicate his intentions more clearly, so Ange wouldn't have just dismissed his game outright. :-/
LOL, the fun part is he told Beato not to write too roundabout love letters if she wanted to be understood... He probably didn't know how to go at it... and Ange was too desperate to accept it easily...

... Though is also possible the whole story is all either in Ange or Battler's head and in one case it was supposed to portray Toya's wish to convey to Ange that her family loved her while in the other Ange's uncertain about what to do (and in both cases Meta Battler would never be able to tell her the truth because he wouldn't be able to know what she doesn't know... or that Toya apparently doesn't remember...).
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Old 2012-02-09, 21:32   Link #27815
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When Bern cut Clair open with the scythe and those red scenes popped up, I always had a hard time figuring out exactly what they all had to do with each other. Actually, they all seemed really unrelated. Just, various tragic things, one of which we already knew about at that point (which just made it seem out of place).

But I guess, it just goes to show that all three of the Beatrices had their lives completely messed up by Kinzo, directly or indirectly. And while they might have hated what he did or what happened to them, none of them seem to hate him specifically. I wonder why that is.

You know, actually, it makes me think that George inherited this from Kinzo. Because of the things he confessed to Shannon in EP6. It really seems like George and Kinzo are/were similar in many ways. So I don't particularly like either of them that much. And, because of things like this, I don't think Battler is really that much like Kinzo.

Oh, another thing. Since I'm new to Umineko, I wasn't around when EP6 and 7 were released and translated, but now that I look back a little... Well, I could be wrong, but it seems like people in general didn't like those episodes either. So I guess the whole controversy over EP8 isn't anything new at all. Do any of you know why 6 and 7 seem to have received similar treatment? I thought they were pretty good myself.
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Old 2012-02-09, 22:03   Link #27816
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How is George anything like Kinzo? He's just a chap who used to be a loser, who had finally caught a grip on his life and tried to pave a way for a life with the woman he loved.

It's not his fault the woman he loved kept far too many secrets from him.
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Old 2012-02-09, 22:29   Link #27817
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Quote:
When Bern cut Clair open with the scythe and those red scenes popped up, I always had a hard time figuring out exactly what they all had to do with each other. Actually, they all seemed really unrelated. Just, various tragic things, one of which we already knew about at that point (which just made it seem out of place).
They each reveal a sickening, uncomfortable truth about one of the three Beatrices, in order.

Quote:
Oh, another thing. Since I'm new to Umineko, I wasn't around when EP6 and 7 were released and translated, but now that I look back a little... Well, I could be wrong, but it seems like people in general didn't like those episodes either. So I guess the whole controversy over EP8 isn't anything new at all. Do any of you know why 6 and 7 seem to have received similar treatment? I thought they were pretty good myself.
I don't know where you're getting that. EP7 is usually agreed by most people to be the best episode. EP6 was just weird in a lot of ways, but I enjoyed it. Thing is, as things grew closer and closer to the end, we were getting less and less reliable information while calling into question what we did know, so the general attitude was "...He's not planning to tell us a damn thing, is he?"

Quote:
How is George anything like Kinzo? He's just a chap who used to be a loser, who had finally caught a grip on his life and tried to pave a way for a life with the woman he loved.
That's exactly what Kinzo is.
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Old 2012-02-09, 22:55   Link #27818
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That's exactly what Kinzo is.
How? Kinzo was a man who, given the circumstances he lived in (era, family, society) ended up being nothing but a tool, and thus he sought for death until he met Beatrice. On the other hand, George was never anyone's tool. Sure, he was mummy's boy, but he had an actual loving family. In addition, George's limitations were due to his own complexes. Kinzo never even had half the liberty George had, and unlike George who was simply a kid who was jealous of the confidence others had, Kinzo was simply apathetic to life, because he hadn't one.

The only remote similarity they share is both of them changed their outlook on life because of one woman. However, comparing the impact Bice had in Kinzo's life to the one Shannon had in George is silly, in my opinion. Kinzo truly had nothing in his life, whereas George, whilst an angry kid, had far too many things to cherish. So, I hardly see him going mad like Kinzo if he lost Shannon.

I don't see why Toku was comparing Kinzo ruining the lives of 2 or 3 women to George, who had done nothing wrong.
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Old 2012-02-09, 23:39   Link #27819
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How? Kinzo was a man who, given the circumstances he lived in (era, family, society) ended up being nothing but a tool, and thus he sought for death until he met Beatrice.
Just like George was a tool of his mother's and had initially resigned himself to fulfilling her dreams...until he fell in love with Shannon, giving him new life with which he changed his personality and tried to become a gentleman who could form his own business empire outside of the Ushiromiya inheritance.

And he's willing to forsake his entire family for the woman he loves, just like Kinzo.

Quote:
The only remote similarity they share is both of them changed their outlook on life because of one woman. However, comparing the impact Bice had in Kinzo's life to the one Shannon had in George is silly, in my opinion. Kinzo truly had nothing in his life, whereas George, whilst an angry kid, had far too many things to cherish. So, I hardly see him going mad like Kinzo if he lost Shannon.
Only people who've never really suffered loss think that comparing magnitudes of loss make any difference.

Quote:
I don't see why Toku was comparing Kinzo ruining the lives of 2 or 3 women to George, who had done nothing wrong.
George is the culprit.
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Old 2012-02-10, 01:25   Link #27820
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, undoubtely knowing what's in the diary would help but it's unlikely Eva witnessed everything that happened and it's possible her interpretation was mislead.
Rudolf & Kirye likely were bribed by Yasuda to take part to her 'game'. This could have caused them to do something suspicious/compromising without actually meaning to kill someone. Mind you, I'm not discounting the possibility they actually coldly murdered everyone, I'm just saying that Eva's perspective might have been manipulated.
Of course, I understand that Eva may have interpreted things wrong, and I know Eva couldn't have witnessed everything, but I still think there would be a somewhat clear context, if we had access to the entire text. A sentence like "I saw Kyrie shoot at Rosa" has no context, and can barely be understood. She could be talking about Surprise water pistol capture the flag in the Hall, if all we have is one sentence.

I also concede that Eva may have embellished things she was uncertain about, or misinterpreted, but that's something that could possibly be reasoned out, upon studying the whole thing

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I like to think Battler too would have told Ange 'I'll prefer you not to open the book but if you want I won't stop you' once he had finished showing her his game.

LOL, the fun part is he told Beato not to write too roundabout love letters if she wanted to be understood... He probably didn't know how to go at it... and Ange was too desperate to accept it easily...
I KNOW, RIGHT? He was in tears about how "twisted" Beato's game had been, and then he goes and makes his own just as incomprehensible to the person it's made for. I mean, yeah, he did clearly say "Please watch my entire game before deciding", but he had to have known that his content would appear way way way out of left field to her, right?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
They each reveal a sickening, uncomfortable truth about one of the three Beatrices, in order.
This. Clair is literally described as representing all the niceties, handwaves, and beautification given to the story. The makeup and pretty appearance given to what is, if you state things bluntly, alot of messed up stuff. Bern in that scene was ripping that off and going "lolno, Kinzo was just a greedy dick, lololol", etc etc.


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How? Kinzo was a man who, given the circumstances he lived in (era, family, society) ended up being nothing but a tool, and thus he sought for death until he met Beatrice. On the other hand, George was never anyone's tool. Sure, he was mummy's boy, but he had an actual loving family. In addition, George's limitations were due to his own complexes. Kinzo never even had half the liberty George had, and unlike George who was simply a kid who was jealous of the confidence others had, Kinzo was simply apathetic to life, because he hadn't one.
Eh? At George's age, Kinzo had experienced much MORE liberty than George ever had, lest we forget about his entire youth being spent as a stupidly wealthy, carefree rapscallion in Taiwan, having wealthy-rapscallion misadventures with Genji.
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