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Old 2012-02-15, 15:02   Link #27881
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well if we are talking about crazy theories, then what about saying that Genji or Nanjo is Yasuda's father?
Explored that before (the Nanjo theory).
Before arc 7 Chrono and I thought that it would make a lot of sense to a lot of things...
- Nanjo is said to be able to speak english too, and to have housed Beatrice for some time before Kinzo moved her.
- Nanjo has a mysterious granddaughter that is mentioned over and over and never seen. - Granddaughter is supposed to be sick. Nanjo is a doctor and has been staying with the Ushiromiya for some time now. References here and there to Yasu possibly having health issues...
- Makes Nanjo's loyalty to Yasu makes at least a "start" of a sense.
- Kinzo doesn't even have to know the truth in that case either.



Overall I actually think that many of these theories are not exactly wrong and not exactly right either. Like the elements in arc 7, I think that basically Ryuukishi made his story have a lot of possible answers in some aspects that weren't too central to the main plot he wanted to communicate to us. Gradually in Chiru he sorta confirmed some of these "possibilities" and dropped some others.
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Old 2012-02-15, 15:20   Link #27882
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Concerning blonde hair/blue eyes vs everyone else's traits.

Battler in arc 1 when he sees the portrait of Beatrice comments that it could very well be their grandmother in her youth, if it wasn't of her caucasian traits. Namely the blue eyes and the blonde hair. Still even if you remove those, it's said that the model in the portrait is having caucasian traits rather then asian ones.

Italians can be blue eyed/blonde haired but it's true that sicilian tend not to be.


However Renall's point about her being blonde and "who cares" about the rest... I sorta think is not an entirely wrong point.... at least necessarily. The thing is that ultimately Beatrice is a "role in a story" that "serves a purpose" and I think those are more important then her genetics (in fact IMO the only sorta reliable account of any Beatrice is Rosa's encounter - weren't of that I'd doubt if she really existed). However the idea that I take of that is more or less why I always thought that Beato 1 didn't ever love Kinzo : Real Beatrice never loved or was even aware of Dante's feelings for her. Actually Dante barely ever saw her. It seems the most important point of Beatrice symbol is the logic of unrequited love and effect that changes all their life.

The real Dante might not have been able to "use" Beatrice the way he used her if she didn't die so young either. "The character Beatrice" (in Dante's story) is that - a character he shaped pretty much as he wanted.

This seems to fit with Kinzo. Would Beatrice 1 even go along with the claims that she's a "Golden Witch" outside of a total joke? I sorta doubt so.

Think Beatrice name more then anything implies a form of unrequited love and well all three Beatrices died before the man who loved her. Tho in Battler's case I guess it's debatable how much he romantically loved her, and overall the situation seems mostly inverted this time, where "Beatrice" is "Dante" and "Battler" is "Beatrice".

So hell for all we know, perhaps Beatrice 1's name wasn't even Beatrice but Kinzo, probably having read the Divine Comedy, felt his relation to a certain woman was akin to Dante's relation with Beatrice, in the same way that he did whatever he wanted with everything else about her.
You've done your research. I also found it strange that the story of Dante and Beatrice is so similar yet so different from the story of Kinzo and Beatrice I. They both loved each other in Kinzo's story, and it's implied that their relationship went on for at least 3 years... I think.

The thing is, Kinzo is not the type of person to sit back and write poems about the one he loves. In fact, he's entirely the opposite. The man would commit serial murder to be with the one he loves.

Provided he actually loves her. But, there's no point in arguing that he didn't. Because that would be like trying to argue that the sky isn't blue.

I think that Kinzo is like Dante in that he would have obsessed over her from afar like Dante did if he didn't have the, uh... Motivation to do whatever it took to be with her. So, he's sort of like a more insane version of Dante.

I don't particularly like the theory that Beatrice I didn't love him. I think it doesn't really make sense. It's true that it ties in with Meta!Beato's story in EP3, but that (and the parallel to Dante) is about all we have to even suggest this. And this is just one interpretation of the story in EP3, it could mean other things.

I do kind of like the theory that Yasuda wasn't the biological kid of Beatrice II, if only because it makes the fact that she is Beatrice III all the more interesting. However, that theory creates a number of holes. If that's so, then Kinzo's biggest sin, which has been a major plot point, is completely invalidated.

And it is a big plot point, because it explains the particularly intense insanity of his later years, which drove him to hole up in his study and learn about the occult. It also gets a major focus in EP7, and seems to be confirmed in one of the red scenes after Bern slashes Clair. And we seem to be taking those red scenes as Truth, so, if you say that this never happened, it would be the same as saying that Yasuda's body was never incapable of love, which opens up an enormous can of worms, and I wouldn't even have any idea where to start with that.

The thing is, why did Kinzo have to start a conflict at the military base in order to be with Beatrice I? I think that's a particularly important question in understanding Umineko. And I don't think "because one of the officers was flirting with her and he wasn't getting any attention from her" could possibly cut it. First of all, we never saw anything like that, and now you've got to explain how they found someone else to translate for the Italians, or why they didn't need a translator, or what exactly did happen.

Also, I'm starting to like the theory that the majority of the 10 tons of gold doesn't actually exist. Certainly, on the game board, it can exist. Even if the GM puts it in the story, it shouldn't create a Logic Error because nobody should be able to prove that it was impossible for Kinzo to get the gold. Highly improbable, yes, but it's a devil's proof.
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Old 2012-02-15, 15:43   Link #27883
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Italians can be blue eyed/blonde haired but it's true that sicilian tend not to be.
This sort of amused me because although true (blonde haired people in Sicily is only around the 5% of the Sicilian population), blonde Sicilian have the reputation of being gorgeous so if Beato was a rare blonde Sicilian one would expect her to be stunning (I personally never saw a blonde Sicilian female even through I visited many Sicilian cities but I saw a blonde Sicilian male and yes, he was a fine speciment...).

But well, Beato is supposed to be a northern so that's beyond the point.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
However Renall's point about her being blonde and "who cares" about the rest... I sorta think is not an entirely wrong point.... at least necessarily. The thing is that ultimately Beatrice is a "role in a story" that "serves a purpose" and I think those are more important then her genetics (in fact IMO the only sorta reliable account of any Beatrice is Rosa's encounter - weren't of that I'd doubt if she really existed). However the idea that I take of that is more or less why I always thought that Beato 1 didn't ever love Kinzo : Real Beatrice never loved or was even aware of Dante's feelings for her. Actually Dante barely ever saw her. It seems the most important point of Beatrice symbol is the logic of unrequited love and effect that changes all their life.
Yes, Beatrice was a muse for Dante, married to another man and not interested in him (but after all according to some he saw her only twice when he was 9 and when he was 18 and apparently never had the chance to talk with her... though some others assumes he saw her some other times as she was his neighbour for a while before she married), the symbol of a love that can't be reached but only idealized.

Interesting enough one of the theories for Dante's Beatrice's death is she died giving birth to her first kid.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
This seems to fit with Kinzo. Would Beatrice 1 even go along with the claims that she's a "Golden Witch" outside of a total joke? I sorta doubt so.
Honestly I find hard the idea that Beato accepted the life Kinzo offered her, especially considering in the end Bern suggested Yamamoto's characterization might have been fake and the one behind the attack was Kinzo... which would make his characterization fake/biased as well so... though he might have been in good relations with Beato... it's possible she wasn't in love with him.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Think Beatrice name more then anything implies a form of unrequited love and well all three Beatrices died before the man who loved her. Tho in Battler's case I guess it's debatable how much he romantically loved her, and overall the situation seems mostly inverted this time, where "Beatrice" is "Dante" and "Battler" is "Beatrice".
Well, in that case the parallel was that Beato was supposed to guide Battler same as Beatrice guided Dante or so it was said.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
... Anyway Kinzo said in arc 7 something about both Beatrices rejecting him, so I think it's a given that she did.

Scenario as I take it. Beatrice wanted to die - being a pregnant women in a foreign land during a war where both are losing doesn't seem very interesting a thing. Arc 3 even suggest that Beatrice 1 committed suicide to escape Kinzo.
My feeling is that she might have tried to let herself die of starvation... which might have weakened her and caused her to die while giving birth to a baby.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Why questioning these? Really I take it as the truth. Beato 1 committed suicide, but somehow her child survived. This is probably enough of a miracle to start Kinzo's madness concerning Beato 2.
*nods* and he called the baby Beatrice because he wanted the baby to become the new Beato (though maybe only subconsciously in the beginning)... so he might have ended up forcing Beato II to resemble her mother.

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The father of Beato 3 doesn't even matter, but Rosa's testimony makes me certain the mother isn't Beato 2.
I don't know about this... but I prefer it to be true because the other option is rather creepy.

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So not only it is very likely, it's also full of hints supporting it.
No Beatrice ever loved Kinzo in a romantic way.
Kinzo isn't the biological father of any of them, but he remains Beato 2's moral father as the one who raised her.
It'll be interesting if Yasuda actually wasn't BeatoII kid but Kinzo purposely selected her as some sort of replacement.
Though EP 7 says he wanted to atone that might not have been true when he picked Yasuda up, in fact Genji was worried about it, and I don't really like the way in which he forced the baby on Natsuhi. Natsuhi would have been way more prone to accept Yasuda if she had known she was actually part of the family...
and if he didn't want to admit she was his daughter he could have said Yasuda was the kid of a distant relative.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Also arc 1 I think refers to Shannon as the stepdaughter of another maid. That might not have been the truth however it's likely how Genji got Yasu to work there in the first place. She wasn't really working there at first but officially only the stepdaughter of another worker who gradually started to give a hand, leading her to gradually become a full fledged maid "who came a long way" (according to Battler).
Arc 7 is really a bit too biased for my tastes so I don't really know how to take it.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Stories written under the alias of Maria + Kinzo getting angry at Rosa for naming her daughter Maria could very well imply that Shkanon's real name was Maria. It would sorta fit very smoothly to me, especially change the meaning of arc 2's FT completely.
Well, if I'm not wrong, an interview said that Kinzo got angry because he had thought for her a different name so he disliked his idea being rejected.

Lion is also a fitting name due to the lion turning to show the way to the gold... though really, Umineko is too vague on all this.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I do kind of like the theory that Yasuda wasn't the biological kid of Beatrice II, if only because it makes the fact that she is Beatrice III all the more interesting. However, that theory creates a number of holes. If that's so, then Kinzo's biggest sin, which has been a major plot point, is completely invalidated.
Well, he might have wished to apologize for trapping Beato II and trying to force her to become Beato I, even trying to use magic as well as trying to force his feelings on her (EP 7 teaparty implied in red she wasn't exactly happy about him loving her like that).

In the end Beato escaped and this was what lead her to her death so this can also be something for which he wanted to apologize, forcing her into a life she so despite she tried to escape to it (and if he didn't know about Rosa's involvement he could have thought she escaped despite fearing the wolves in the forest).

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
And it is a big plot point, because it explains the particularly intense insanity of his later years, which drove him to hole up in his study and learn about the occult.
Actually he was already studying occult when Beato II was around, though likely not so obsessively. However as he lost Beato II he might have tried to learn magic harder so as not to lose the next Beato...

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The thing is, why did Kinzo have to start a conflict at the military base in order to be with Beatrice I? I think that's a particularly important question in understanding Umineko. And I don't think "because one of the officers was flirting with her and he wasn't getting any attention from her" could possibly cut it. First of all, we never saw anything like that, and now you've got to explain how they found someone else to translate for the Italians, or why they didn't need a translator, or what exactly did happen.
The whole submarine story is very biased toward Kinzo.
I personally found hard that Beato could be talking English. It's not impossible but back then English wasn't really well known among Italians who generally studied French (though, of course, Beato might have known it for her own reasons... for example her father could have been a diplomat who went to work in England and so for a while she had to work there as well... or actually her mother was English) so I find the fact she knew it so well odd.

It's possible though and I think she might have had chances to talk with Kinzo due to this and he might have equivocated her behaviour believing she loved him back when she was merely being friendly.
After all the other surviving Italians were all pretty tense so she might have enjoyed talking with someone who was not.

Apparently the idea of a fight was Kinzo... but he should have had a plan about making sure that Beato wouldn't get hurt and the Japanese were to die.
Let's assume he really pushed his countrymen to attack the Italians but warned the Italians beforehand and gave the Japanese a bomb that wouldn't explode.
Then he planned to have them kill each other and murder the survivors.
Yamamoto somehow survived and managed to get his hands on Bice.

Bice would have no idea what Kinzo and Yamamoto were saying so we would have only Kinzo's version.

I don't know if Bice was really Kinzo's accomplice or not but surely Yamamoto might have thought so.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Also, I'm starting to like the theory that the majority of the 10 tons of gold doesn't actually exist. Certainly, on the game board, it can exist. Even if the GM puts it in the story, it shouldn't create a Logic Error because nobody should be able to prove that it was impossible for Kinzo to get the gold. Highly improbable, yes, but it's a devil's proof.
I've been thinking the same thing. Also the gold is described as a huge mountain but when you go and check the mountain would likely be a lot smaller than the one described. Though apparently someone saw some gold ingots so there was some gold. Though maybe not so much as we're lead to believe.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-02-15 at 16:05.
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Old 2012-02-15, 16:03   Link #27884
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I do kind of like the theory that Yasuda wasn't the biological kid of Beatrice II, if only because it makes the fact that she is Beatrice III all the more interesting. However, that theory creates a number of holes. If that's so, then Kinzo's biggest sin, which has been a major plot point, is completely invalidated.
Not necessarily. The sin is basically a sin against two people who are long dead by the time he appears to be seeking significant atonement for his actions against them. Regardless of who the first two Beatrices are, or what specifically Kinzo did to them, the point is that:

1) He regrets his behavior, at least that seems to be what is being suggested.

2) It is impossible for him to make an atonement in any other fashion but a symbolic one.

Assuming for a moment that Yasu's believed family history of direct descent from the first two Beatrices through Kinzo is true - whether it is or it isn't - Kinzo still can't really atone through her, as she is not really in any position to forgive him for what he may have done to her mother and grandmother. And in many ways, he didn't really wrong her; he was going to give him/her to Natsuhi to raise after all, which would've made Lion the heir apparent to the family, essentially "setting right" what he symbolically promised to his Beatrices. But even that would not have really earned their forgiveness.

Looking at it this way, if there never was a Lion, and Yasu is not the person she's been led to believe herself to be, it ultimately makes no difference, as Kinzo can achieve symbolic atonement from a fake just as well as he could attain it from the real thing. Thus I suppose you could even go so far as to say that Yasu would be used for this end by Genji as the means to permit Kinzo peace, without any actual desire to attend to her well-being or true self-identity.

Could you spin Yasu's body issues somehow through this lens to be purely symbolic? I don't know, possibly. I haven't fully considered the consequences of that, but it doesn't really seem to mesh to me. Still, there's no indication anywhere that her issues with herself and her body and her identity have any relationship whatsoever with Natsuhi's baby story or the Lion reality. Quite frankly, the notion that Yasu was somehow maimed as a baby is a fabrication that we as fans have come up with, as it appears to be the assumption Yasu herself came up with. However, it's something Yasu cannot prove.

Basically, short of DNA testing fictional characters, it ultimately doesn't matter because Yasu is fulfilling the role of a Beatrice-III whether a Beatrice-III even existed.
Spoiler for And of course, any talk of a Beatrice-IV would just be utter absurdity.:
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Old 2012-02-15, 16:13   Link #27885
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Don't know if everyone is interested but it seems in the manga version of EP 8 the beginning had been changed and now it seems to imply that the whole EP 8 was a tale that was sort of made by Ange's mind.

If Ryukishi is behind this change (he said he would clear up some things using the manga) I've to say I approve it...
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Old 2012-02-15, 16:25   Link #27886
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Not necessarily. The sin is basically a sin against two people who are long dead by the time he appears to be seeking significant atonement for his actions against them. Regardless of who the first two Beatrices are, or what specifically Kinzo did to them, the point is that:

1) He regrets his behavior, at least that seems to be what is being suggested.

2) It is impossible for him to make an atonement in any other fashion but a symbolic one.

Assuming for a moment that Yasu's believed family history of direct descent from the first two Beatrices through Kinzo is true - whether it is or it isn't - Kinzo still can't really atone through her, as she is not really in any position to forgive him for what he may have done to her mother and grandmother. And in many ways, he didn't really wrong her; he was going to give him/her to Natsuhi to raise after all, which would've made Lion the heir apparent to the family, essentially "setting right" what he symbolically promised to his Beatrices. But even that would not have really earned their forgiveness.

Looking at it this way, if there never was a Lion, and Yasu is not the person she's been led to believe herself to be, it ultimately makes no difference, as Kinzo can achieve symbolic atonement from a fake just as well as he could attain it from the real thing. Thus I suppose you could even go so far as to say that Yasu would be used for this end by Genji as the means to permit Kinzo peace, without any actual desire to attend to her well-being or true self-identity.

Could you spin Yasu's body issues somehow through this lens to be purely symbolic? I don't know, possibly. I haven't fully considered the consequences of that, but it doesn't really seem to mesh to me. Still, there's no indication anywhere that her issues with herself and her body and her identity have any relationship whatsoever with Natsuhi's baby story or the Lion reality. Quite frankly, the notion that Yasu was somehow maimed as a baby is a fabrication that we as fans have come up with, as it appears to be the assumption Yasu herself came up with. However, it's something Yasu cannot prove.

Basically, short of DNA testing fictional characters, it ultimately doesn't matter because Yasu is fulfilling the role of a Beatrice-III whether a Beatrice-III even existed.
Spoiler for And of course, any talk of a Beatrice-IV would just be utter absurdity.:
I can at least say that, according to Clair's story in EP7, it's a fact that Yasuda's growth was pretty severely stunted and that she barely recovered from the injuries from the cliff incident. We don't really know of any other major injuries inflicted upon Yasuda, so we conclude that it was due to that incident. Of course, we can't prove it, but... It seems like the most obvious answer. In fact, if you wanted to say that this isn't the injury she was speaking of in the red scene, you would need to show some form of evidence for that conclusion, because we have absolutely no reason to believe it.

Though you're right. As long as there is some sin for him to regret, you can avoid invalidating the plot point that there is a sin he regrets and seeks atonement for. You could even say that this sin is the fact that he started the conflict at the military base on Rokkenjima.

Even so, it's said many times, and then heavily implied in a red scene, that he did rape Beatrice II. I think that he did. I don't really have any reason to believe that he didn't. Rosa is the only witness to her story, and anyway, this story does in no way confirm that Beatrice II never had a kid.

In this case, you're going to have to provide evidence which goes against things that were explicitly given to us repeatedly in the series. I know that it's possible that Yasuda is not Beatrice II's biological kid or even that he never raped her, but is there some reason why this theory is more likely to be the truth than what we're already given?
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Old 2012-02-15, 18:13   Link #27887
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Some of the reasons to doubt Beatrice 3's mother's identity...

In Rosa's accounts she says that Beatrice was closer to a kid then an adult. She portrays a very innocent Beatrice who doesn't seem to me like someone who gave birth. Even if she did, you'd think she would mention the kid or something before deciding of leaving Kuwadorian with the kid behind.

The solution is said in red to be attainable by arc 4 and most of the third-child thing information comes from Chiru.

You have Kinzo repeatedly saying it doesn't matter if the person who solves it doesn't have Ushiromiya blood - basically suggesting he really didn't particularily care about... well genetics.

The title Beatrice can be inherited in ways other then giving birth as Eva Beatrice and Ange Beatrice among proves.

Even arc 7 basically says that Kinzo showed "Beatrice 2 affection she could not understand" you'd think Kumasawa would have been more then "upset" at the prospect when scolding Kinzo in that very arc if she really implied rape.

Arc 7 and arc 8 gradually redeemed Kinzo's image. The one we have by arc 8 is also completely different from previous ones. That one information from arc 7 however makes everything uglier.
Before arc 7 he was sorta crazy and a selfish jerk with violent tendencies among negative ways we could perceive him, but he wasn't someone who raped his own child. That's a crime that I very much doubt would be considered understandable. I guess you could say it's a crime so severe that it takes more then suggestion and speculation to simply believe it.
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Old 2012-02-15, 19:15   Link #27888
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don't know if everyone is interested but it seems in the manga version of ep 8 the beginning had been changed and now it seems to imply that the whole ep 8 was a tale that was sort of made by ange's mind.

If ryukishi is behind this change (he said he would clear up some things using the manga) i've to say i approve it...
I totally called it.
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Old 2012-02-16, 11:29   Link #27889
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In Rosa's accounts she says that Beatrice was closer to a kid then an adult. She portrays a very innocent Beatrice who doesn't seem to me like someone who gave birth. Even if she did, you'd think she would mention the kid or something before deciding of leaving Kuwadorian with the kid behind.
Well, she could've been very young when she received her child. Perhaps she had repressed the memories of being raped by Kinzo and having the child? Naturally the baby must've been kept at Kuwadorian, but if Beato 2 asked Kumasawa or Genji to take care of the baby, and repressing the memories of it's birth, it wouldn't surprise me if she somehow thought of it as a child not beloning to her. Or perhaps she was disgusted by her child, and simply did not care for it, who knows.
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Old 2012-02-16, 12:07   Link #27890
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Again though, that's the problem with Rosa's story: There's no mention of it at all. While it's entirely possible the whole story just didn't happen to come up, Beatrice's behavior is somewhat curious in light of what Rosa was saying happened.

So either it's a coincidence that she never really thought about or mentioned the issue of her baby, or there's some reason for it we were never shown, or there's a problem with the veracity of one of the stories (not necessarily the one from ep7, mind you... Rosa's could also have a factual problem somewhere).
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Old 2012-02-16, 13:05   Link #27891
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Rosa is the only person who speaks about any previous Beatrice without being definitively unreliable about it tho. If we start to question her story, which can certainly be done, I would be inclined to believe that neither previous Beatrices even existed to begin with.

Without her testimony is there really anything that necessarily requires any of them's existence?

I am not doubting her testimony btw. Her reaction to Maria's obsession with witches and her claims of befriending Beatrice seems to make more sense to me when considering her past story. It's very possible some parts are missing and/or not clear tho. Among thing I am personally not too clear about Beato 2's death being in 1967 or 1968.

Still imagine, your daughter tells you she befriended someone who you saw dying nearly two decades before.
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Old 2012-02-16, 13:16   Link #27892
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True, but part of the reason Rosa seems to consider this unnerving and absurd is that she didn't appear to think there was any possibility that the Beatrice she met and saw die could have been a mother. Sure, you can't always tell by looking, but if Rosa was given the wrong impression somehow, nothing was done to actually suggest otherwise to her.

That suggests either that the matter just wasn't at all important (which is baffling, even for someone like Beatrice-2) or there exists some reason why it never came up which we cannot know. And guessing about it is pointless because there's no possible way to confirm it.
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Old 2012-02-16, 17:39   Link #27893
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True, but part of the reason Rosa seems to consider this unnerving and absurd is that she didn't appear to think there was any possibility that the Beatrice she met and saw die could have been a mother.
Why are you guys assuming that Beatrice II knew she was a mother herself? This is a woman that believes that man-eating wolves exist right outside the fence and that she's a witch. For all you know, Kinzo told her that she had a tumor in her stomach and they were going to operate on it nine months from now. Who was going to contradict him?
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Old 2012-02-16, 18:15   Link #27894
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Why are you guys assuming that Beatrice II knew she was a mother herself? This is a woman that believes that man-eating wolves exist right outside the fence and that she's a witch. For all you know, Kinzo told her that she had a tumor in her stomach and they were going to operate on it nine months from now. Who was going to contradict him?
You have to be pretty goddamn stupid to neither notice this nor ever mention anything about it.

"She was just so uneducated and oblivious that she would have had no idea what happened to her and would ignore it afterward" stretches the already-thin credibility of the entire affair.
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Old 2012-02-16, 18:57   Link #27895
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Beatrice-II lived her entire life in the Kuwadorian, and Rosa was probably the first person she had ever met besides Kinzo, Genji, Kumasawa and maybe Nanjo. That such an insulated person would come off as "childish" to Rosa, who, even as a middle school girl, knew much more of the world, is entirely natural. What would be weird, baby or no baby, would be Beatrice-II not coming off as childish.

The real question, assuming that Beatrice-II really is Lion's mother, is: Where was Lion when Rosa met Beatrice-II? Obviously Lion was not in his/her mother's care at the time, which is somewhat strange. Was Kumasawa Lion's primary caregiver even while Beatrice-II was alive? Or is it possible that Lion was, for some reason, entrusted to Natsuhi before Beatrice-II died? (IIRC the exact timing of Beatrice-II's death is not entirely clear).
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Old 2012-02-16, 19:06   Link #27896
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You have to be pretty goddamn stupid to neither notice this nor ever mention anything about it.

"She was just so uneducated and oblivious that she would have had no idea what happened to her and would ignore it afterward" stretches the already-thin credibility of the entire affair.
Why? How would she magically know she had a baby in her stomach if no one ever told her? You're forgetting that she grew up completely isolated from the world except for the people Kinzo permitted to take care of her. She thought she was a witch. An actual honest-to-god witch.

What you people are suggesting is that people are born ~*magically*~ understanding how pregnancy works, and that being pregnant ~*magically*~ confers a maturity that is visible to the naked eye.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
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Old 2012-02-16, 19:16   Link #27897
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So... Rosa saw a young woman, who was apparently completely unaware of the world beyond the fence of the garden in which she lived and likely interacted only with the servants and Kinzo so, though she had manners, she have a rather naive behaviour (not only she believed there were wolves outside the fence but she thought Rosa could have escaped from them giving them a biscuit) and no sense of danger not even in face of the obvious risk of falling from a cliff.
When Rosa offered her to leave she looked at the mansion various times before deciding she wanted to leave. She was older than Rosa but followed her as if Rosa was the older one.


If Kinzo had made her pregnant she might have been unable to understand what was going on with her or to accept that a baby had come out of her.
It's possible she hadn't even been asked to take care of the baby but the servants had to do all the job so she would be unable to realize she was a 'mother' and therefore feel regret for abandoning her child.

And since she behaved like a child herself it would be harder for Rosa to think she might be a mother. Rosa was young and Beato acted like a child. Maybe back then she hadn't fully realized she was her father's mistress, just that she 'belonged' to Kinzo.

Also when Kinzo met her he insisted for her to drink her 'black tea' and when she leaves the mansion she says she didn't need black tea anymore. Maybe black tea was merely her fave drink... or maybe it was corrected with some sort of drug to keep her compliant or to suggestionate her.
Kinzo said that:
Quote:
My magical ceremonies were helping her regain her memories one little bit at a time......
So he was doing something to her therefore through Rosa's testimony can be reliable Beato herself might not be of any help.

Poor girl though. I really pity her.

Also, looking from Beatrice's description to her first meeting with Kinzo and trying to make it fit with the tale of Beatrice Castiglioni yes, it gives definitely the impression that although Beato liked to be the object of Kinzo's love she didn't love him back and didn't apprecciate to be kept trapped.

Quote:
"I was a great witch who had lived for one thousand years. But at some time, I was summoned by Kinzo, ...and by that hidden art I was bound as his prisoner for eternity."

".........Never heard that before. From what we hear in the Ushiromiya family, you were summoned by Grandfather, made something like a devil's contract with him, and gave him the gold."

"Hmm. That is correct. ...Then I was supposed to hide myself until the contract was over. But, .........well, it's tough being a popular woman. .........By some turn of events, Kinzo fell in love with me."
The first Beato came with the gold, so that Kinzo labelled her as the golden witch.
The contrat she speaks of might either be Beato betraying her own countrymen to hand the gold to Kinzo but, more likely, it was Kinzo promising her to hide her for a while until she could return home or leave for whereever she wanted to leave and in exchange she would let him have the gold. In fact she said she 'was supposed to hide myself until the contract was over'.

Quote:
".........Hmph. Well, to me it was annoying at best. ...However, the power of humans is a frightening thing. He displayed that fearsome power and rooted me to this place. ...He said I wouldn't be freed until I nodded my head in agreement. ...Such an overbearing man."
Quote:
" ......Then, you were Grandfather's mistress, who retired here. Isn't that right?!"

"Mistress isn't the right way to say it. ......You should probably call it Kinzo's unrequited love. I spoke of it just recently, correct? He fell in love with me of his own accord. He then courted me, but I rejected him."
Quote:
"Hmm. .........I refused Kinzo when he courted me, but he was not a man to lose heart at something like that. He wanted to make me nod my head in agreement no matter what. He shut me up in this mansion, and spent an eternity trying to win my heart."

"...He really is overbearing. Obstinate men are dislikable, right?"

".........*cackle*cackle* Regardless of whether I responded to his courting or not, making him so desperate for me was, ...well, as a woman it wasn't unpleasant.
However apparently Kinzo didn't want to respect their agreement.

Nanjo says that:

Quote:
"I treated her for some time before a messenger from the Ushiromiya family came and said that she would be moved to Odawara. They took her away."
Quote:
"So, Beatrice went to Odawara, and then what...?"
"I have heard that she hid in one of their unused villas. "
So it's possible he moved Beato and kept her secluded even through at a certain point she didn't want to be there anymore.

Even if Nanjo said that:

Quote:
"I have heard that it was a modest, peaceful life. ......Several years later, they had a child."
"......So, Kuwadorian's Beatrice was born."
"The birth...didn't go well...... It was truly a sad tale."
This didn't really mean that it was a modest, peaceful life as Nanjo didn't witness it and probably learnt about it by Kinzo... who was likely feeding him with his own version of the fact.

Though there's to say that Beatrice Castiglioni rejecting Kinzo is Beatrice's version of how things went. We've no way to know if it's true however Yasuda might have thought that was how things went considering Kuwadorian Beatrice too had been kept trapped and hidden in a mansion and wasn't in love with Kinzo.
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Old 2012-02-16, 20:21   Link #27898
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Why? How would she magically know she had a baby in her stomach if no one ever told her? You're forgetting that she grew up completely isolated from the world except for the people Kinzo permitted to take care of her. She thought she was a witch. An actual honest-to-god witch.
Assuming you believe everything that has been seen is exactly as it appears. We have very little information about who this Beatrice-2 was, if she was, and what she did or didn't know. The best testimony we have is Rosa's. Rosa didn't know her all that much or all that long, and she's traumatized by Beatrice's death. She's reporting what she remembers of their conversations, and Beatrice's ignorance of her own situation can just as easily work against her testimony as it works for her.

The way someone represents themselves to others isn't entirely reliable in that respect, and more to the point, we have absolutely no evidence from Rosa's story that she was ever pregnant. The default claim you're falling back to, which is entirely absurd, is that it's perfectly natural that nothing about this would come up at all. While it's perhaps possible that it simply didn't, it strikes me as rather implausible, and that seems to raise questions about why Rosa never noticed, heard, or was told anything about it.
Quote:
What you people are suggesting is that people are born ~*magically*~ understanding how pregnancy works, and that being pregnant ~*magically*~ confers a maturity that is visible to the naked eye.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
No, that's rather what you are suggesting, because you like to mischaracterize arguments and try to blithely dismiss them. It doesn't work like that either.

The point is that pregnancy is Kind Of A Thing. Whether she was educated about it or not, she would have had to experience it, and one would think she had some kind of curiosity about it even if she was never actually told the truth. Moreover, whatever it was would have had to have happened only very recently, at the latest about a year. No matter how many lies Kinzo makes up about the pregnancy, there is no way he can hide from her the actual physical effects of it. She may not know exactly what it is, but it's probably the single most unusual and traumatic thing to have actually ever happened to her in her sheltered life. That never warrants interest and she could be easily silenced with a story? Really?

Your suggestion appears to be that somehow it's possible to have sex, become impregnated, go through a pregnancy, and deliver a child, and then experience little or no change of personality because of or interest in whatever the hell just happened over the last year. And never mention it, even as an ignorant aside ("I've been sick recently, but I think I can come with you now...") to the one new person you've met whom you actually know cromes from outside the fence. A person who apparently strongly catches your interest to the point that you accept her invitation to follow her back where she came from. Even though only very recently something happened to you that was debilitating and unusual. How do you know it won't come back again while you're out in the woods, then?

So Beatrice-2 is curious enough about the world outside Kuwadorian that she's willing to sneak out with Rosa, but not curious enough about her pregnancy - even if it was somehow concealed from her as best Kinzo could manage - that such a thing would ever come up even incidentally in Rosa's story? The whole thing just doesn't mesh together right somehow.
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Old 2012-02-16, 20:35   Link #27899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Why? How would she magically know she had a baby in her stomach if no one ever told her? You're forgetting that she grew up completely isolated from the world except for the people Kinzo permitted to take care of her. She thought she was a witch. An actual honest-to-god witch.

What you people are suggesting is that people are born ~*magically*~ understanding how pregnancy works, and that being pregnant ~*magically*~ confers a maturity that is visible to the naked eye.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
Ask any pregnant woman / mother how much of a literal pain it is and you have your answer.
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Old 2012-02-16, 20:47   Link #27900
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The real question, assuming that Beatrice-II really is Lion's mother, is: Where was Lion when Rosa met Beatrice-II? Obviously Lion was not in his/her mother's care at the time, which is somewhat strange. Was Kumasawa Lion's primary caregiver even while Beatrice-II was alive? Or is it possible that Lion was, for some reason, entrusted to Natsuhi before Beatrice-II died? (IIRC the exact timing of Beatrice-II's death is not entirely clear).
The timing is pretty odd. Wasn't Rosa in middle school when she met Beatrice-II? Even if there was a delay between then and Natsuhi being given the baby, Rosa still should have been around to witness it.

Although I guess it's possible that Rosa did see the baby but never connected it to Beatrice, so it never came up.
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