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Old 2012-02-17, 16:24   Link #27921
Renall
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Again, with the title of Beatrice being symbolic and all, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. If Eva and Ange can be Beatrice, someone who either is or merely thinks she is Beatrice certainly can also qualify.

Besides, you'd most likely argue that Yasu became Beatrice by doing the things that Beatrice should do, constructively becoming the Golden Witch. As a result, her backstory is essentially irrelevant compared with her actions. She achieves "Golden Witchiness" by virtue of her actions, making any hereditary facet of the matter unimportant.
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Old 2012-02-17, 17:04   Link #27922
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Again, with the title of Beatrice being symbolic and all, it really doesn't make that much of a difference. If Eva and Ange can be Beatrice, someone who either is or merely thinks she is Beatrice certainly can also qualify.

Besides, you'd most likely argue that Yasu became Beatrice by doing the things that Beatrice should do, constructively becoming the Golden Witch. As a result, her backstory is essentially irrelevant compared with her actions. She achieves "Golden Witchiness" by virtue of her actions, making any hereditary facet of the matter unimportant.
Exactly. Her backstory might be true or a mere embellishment, a lie she was told or something she was lead to believe but to PieceYasuda it won't make any difference.

It's one of the many things in Umineko that somehow don't feel right but it doesn't really matter if they're right or not because either way they won't affect the story in a significant manner.
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Old 2012-02-17, 17:12   Link #27923
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yasu, the person who invented Shkanon, unable to tell fantasy from reality?
Oh, please. Yasu is the one who also went out of her way to write Legend and Turn with rules and hints for ShKanon's non-existence. She knows the difference.

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She's either totally crazy or incredibly rational, and while just about everything she says suggests the former, her actual accomplishments certainly suggest the latter.
She's not "totally" either. She understands reality but usually prefers to think in terms of fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Besides, you'd most likely argue that Yasu became Beatrice by doing the things that Beatrice should do, constructively becoming the Golden Witch. As a result, her backstory is essentially irrelevant compared with her actions. She achieves "Golden Witchiness" by virtue of her actions, making any hereditary facet of the matter unimportant.
Yeah, Yasu can of course be Beatrice without being Lion, but I think she's Lion anyway.
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Old 2012-02-19, 09:23   Link #27924
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Oh, please. Yasu is the one who also went out of her way to write Legend and Turn with rules and hints for ShKanon's non-existence. She knows the difference.
Actually this is the best and most important reason I can think of to take arc 7 not as the absolute truth : the idea that the Yasu we were presented with in arc 7 being the writer doesn't work at all to me.
Too immature, too subjective, too biased, not understanding enough about enough, contrary to whoever wrote Umineko arcs.

If you want, it's like saying the writer knows very well the differences between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, but for "Yasu" especially as presented in arc 7... well she plays with imaginary friends and believes she can becomes a witch and consider Shannon and herself to be different people etc.

Not very good "objective writer material".
Seriously, the writer of all the arcs has a lot more life experience and understanding of everything then a delusional Yasu who can't stop her Battler obsession after 6 years.
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Old 2012-02-19, 10:00   Link #27925
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually this is the best and most important reason I can think of to take arc 7 not as the absolute truth : the idea that the Yasu we were presented with in arc 7 being the writer doesn't work at all to me.
Too immature, too subjective, too biased, not understanding enough about enough, contrary to whoever wrote Umineko arcs.

If you want, it's like saying the writer knows very well the differences between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, but for "Yasu" especially as presented in arc 7... well she plays with imaginary friends and believes she can becomes a witch and consider Shannon and herself to be different people etc.

Not very good "objective writer material".
Seriously, the writer of all the arcs has a lot more life experience and understanding of everything then a delusional Yasu who can't stop her Battler obsession after 6 years.
I wonder if this can mean that the one who wrote the previous arcs was... let's call it adult Yasuda while EP 7 is written from the perspective of young Yasuda... if not just her Beato's part.

She's a Yasuda who seems to ignore Battler solved her enigma and therefore she's unaware of the ending of EP 5 & and the whole of EP 6.
I don't even know how much she knows about EP 5 as she doesn't seem to care about Battler from EP 5 at all. No, I don't mean about the mystery part because since it wasn't created by Beato it's fine she doesn't care about it but about Battler himself.
Did he remained stabbed or in the end did he managed to free himself? And if he did is he still trying to find a solution or has surrendered or has found it?

She doesn't care about any of this even if, when Will tells her that:
Quote:
"He did remember, in the end. ......However, that was long after you gave up and disappeared."
"......If that is so, ......then it would give my heart some peace..."
So I don't really know how to take that Yasuda. She's strange, as if removed from time. Though the whole EP 7 is odd as characters seem to sway between a world where Lion exists and one in which he doesn't so maybe this Yasuda is some sort of parallel Yasuda? Yet she has the knowledge of Beato's games...

Anyone with thoughts about her?
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Old 2012-02-19, 10:20   Link #27926
Misuzu
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Even if we were to accept the ridiculous notion that a woman wouldn't feel the baby kicking and several other symptoms that grow with the pregnancy, and this is only possible because "hurrdurr a gullible woman who knows nothing of the world wouldn't know those symptoms are pregnancy related", they would know when they enter labor. And when a baby comes out, they would know that a baby came out of them. Humans are genetically smarter than all the hordes of wild animals that somehow figure this out without any help from "pregnancy tests". How do you think a baby identifies its mother anyway? Pheromones tell tales.
In the 1960's, weren't women rendered unconscious when it came time to give birth? I know this happened in the US, and I assumed this was true for Japan too, since the Kyrie/Asumu baby switch seems pretty much impossible without it.

I think her not being traumatized by the event at all or more curious about the symptoms is a big stretch, but not the biggest stretch Umineko has asked us to make. That said, I agree that Ryukishi was probably making things up as he went along.

Last edited by Misuzu; 2012-02-19 at 10:31. Reason: grammar
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Old 2012-02-19, 12:40   Link #27927
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually this is the best and most important reason I can think of to take arc 7 not as the absolute truth : the idea that the Yasu we were presented with in arc 7 being the writer doesn't work at all to me.
Too immature, too subjective, too biased, not understanding enough about enough, contrary to whoever wrote Umineko arcs.
Requiem is not absolute truth, as demonstrated when Bern revealed the "body unable to love" scene. But it is a kind of truth. Otherwise it's meaningless. When you, or anyone, tells a true story, certain parts may be emphasized or left out in order for the story to have a certain feel to it. This is what Claire is doing.

"Too immature"-Yasu in EP7 was younger than Yasu would be as a writer. A young person can change a lot in a year, and let's not forget that Yasu had an entirely new place in life with responsibilities shifting from being a servant to being the head of the Ushiromiya family during the nearly 2 years between when Claire's narrative ends and the explosion incident of 1986. Plus, I think Legend and Turn were both written some time after the incident as well.
"Too biased"-Why do you think the writer wasn't biased?

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Not very good "objective writer material".
Seriously, the writer of all the arcs has a lot more life experience and understanding of everything then a delusional Yasu who can't stop her Battler obsession after 6 years.
But the writer is really obsessed with Battler.
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Old 2012-02-19, 12:52   Link #27928
Renall
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually this is the best and most important reason I can think of to take arc 7 not as the absolute truth : the idea that the Yasu we were presented with in arc 7 being the writer doesn't work at all to me.
Too immature, too subjective, too biased, not understanding enough about enough, contrary to whoever wrote Umineko arcs.

If you want, it's like saying the writer knows very well the differences between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, but for "Yasu" especially as presented in arc 7... well she plays with imaginary friends and believes she can becomes a witch and consider Shannon and herself to be different people etc.

Not very good "objective writer material".
Seriously, the writer of all the arcs has a lot more life experience and understanding of everything then a delusional Yasu who can't stop her Battler obsession after 6 years.
One could argue that this is the person she wants to be understood as, given that she seems to have some pretty massive self-esteem problems. Yet what satisfies Clair isn't Will showing her sympathy as a crazy nut with a weird past and messed-up guardians, but Will intellectually engaging her as a writer of mysteries by providing answers to the puzzles.

It's like a direct inverse of what Beatrice wants out of Battler: She presents him with an intellectual construction but she doesn't actually want him to answer it, she wants him to understand her emotionally.

Of course arguably it's a bit of both, and the "deeper" puzzle about understanding her heart is something she wants Battler alone to do (because honestly, it's supposed to be a love letter), but understanding her intellectually at least acknowledges her existence and worth as a person. So if she can't have the love, at least she can have the chance for someone like Will who can solve her riddles and pass judgment on their worth as a work of art. It's worth noting that Will is not all that emotionally attached to the original author (to Lion is another matter). Understanding the Yasu stories and the mysteries did not make Will love her or anything. Why should it? That was for Battler.

But it creates an interesting pair of contradictions. Beatrice was created to love Battler but instead becomes the agent of the intellectual exercise. Yasu has a tempestuous and seemingly unstable emotional life that she wants people to understand but she chooses to portray it through the very rational act of a carefully-constructed fictional narrative. She seems at cross purposes with herself, and to some extent, the authorial vibes appear to also be tangled up. Like the people who want to learn the truth ought to be looking at the other thing, but the other thing was never meant for them in the first place.
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Old 2012-02-19, 13:20   Link #27929
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
~~~~~~~
+1

I remember hearing somewhere before that a fundamental to creating interesting fictional characters is having them contradict themselves.

Stupid as ShKanon is as a solution, I think Yasu as a character is very compelling.
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Old 2012-02-20, 08:36   Link #27930
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
+1

I remember hearing somewhere before that a fundamental to creating interesting fictional characters is having them contradict themselves.

Stupid as ShKanon is as a solution, I think Yasu as a character is very compelling.
Personally I think Yasu is the less convincing character in the story. Too much drama and angst is filled on her to the point that it became a bit unbelievable. I do not want to bully Ryukishi here, I just want to understand how an author could make a character "real" and interesting. The concept behind Yasu is nice, I think it is the problem of "being recognized" and "being understood." But sometimes I feel the characters lean too much on this concept that she barely could feel real.
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Old 2012-02-20, 13:41   Link #27931
Renall
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Personally I think Yasu is the less convincing character in the story. Too much drama and angst is filled on her to the point that it became a bit unbelievable. I do not want to bully Ryukishi here, I just want to understand how an author could make a character "real" and interesting. The concept behind Yasu is nice, I think it is the problem of "being recognized" and "being understood." But sometimes I feel the characters lean too much on this concept that she barely could feel real.
Well, the unfortunate problem is that he couldn't top Beatrice as a character, and he kind of had to. Not that it's impossible for the creator to be less dynamic and awesome than the creation, but they at least need to have the same degree of depth, which I personally wasn't sold on Yasu having.

I think there are hints of that possibility (her undercurrent of extreme rationality), but it's never developed enough as a theme for me to know if it was intended to be there.
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Old 2012-02-20, 15:23   Link #27932
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Personally I think Yasu is the less convincing character in the story. Too much drama and angst is filled on her to the point that it became a bit unbelievable. I do not want to bully Ryukishi here, I just want to understand how an author could make a character "real" and interesting. The concept behind Yasu is nice, I think it is the problem of "being recognized" and "being understood." But sometimes I feel the characters lean too much on this concept that she barely could feel real.
For me the problem is more that there's not really a character named Yasuda but 3 characters that should represent the various sides of her... 3 characters those behaviours sometimes clash in such a way if I've to think at them placed inside a single body I've to assume at least one of them isn't being honest in his feelings.
I'm not sure how to explain it well though.

In short for me is not a problem of drama amount but of proper representation of the character who was supposed to suffer all that drama to the point she planned a mass murder with suicide included.

Honestly I would have preferred a less biased representation in EP 7 considering the idea was we were supposed to be sympathetic toward her but well... that's just me.
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Old 2012-02-21, 07:23   Link #27933
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"The person that made me finally get over my conceit and open my eyes......was you, Shannon.......No, it was both of you."

Um... HOW the ??? george know's about shkannon? or wtf does he mean ?
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Old 2012-02-21, 08:49   Link #27934
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Where did Geogre say this one? If I'm not mistake it is on EP6,right? He probably means Shanon and Battler in my interpretation. (His love for Shanon and his jealousy to Battler pushes him to change his image?)

As if Geogre has not been suspicious enough...
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Old 2012-02-21, 13:19   Link #27935
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"The person that made me finally get over my conceit and open my eyes......was you, Shannon.......No, it was both of you."

Um... HOW the ??? george know's about shkannon? or wtf does he mean ?
He's referring to Shannon and to Battler, his younger cousin, who respects him and to whom he decided to steal the girlfriend.

Okay, I'm unncessary sarcastic but I really don't apprecciate that George, even knowing Shannon and Battler might have something going on, decided to get in between.
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Old 2012-02-21, 14:21   Link #27936
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"The person that made me finally get over my conceit and open my eyes......was you, Shannon.......No, it was both of you."

Um... HOW the ??? george know's about shkannon? or wtf does he mean ?
When in doubt, reread umineko and find out! Context is key for quotes like these.

Quote:
Where did Geogre say this one?
EP6. The scene in the arbor/rose garden just before George proposes to shannon, and just after they finish sharing their opinions of Erika.
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Old 2012-02-28, 02:24   Link #27937
ImperialX
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Just finished the game.

Alright, this is my very first post in the Umineko subforums here, so that makes me a newbie. Nice to meet everyone!

I've just played through Umineko and Umineko Chiru (episodes 1~8). It's definitely amongst the best visual novels I've ever played, and I just want clarification...no, that's not the right word. The beauty of Umineko lies in accepting that it's better for the cat box to remain closed. That's the entire purpose of episode 8, after all.

Alright, instead of using "clarification", let's call it "opinions" instead! Again, this is all just for fun and I know that Umineko is the most beautiful unsolved, but I can't help but be a bit curious about what actually happened. So here is my understanding of what I know that's inside the cat box (a.k.a. what really happened on Rokkenjima during those fateful days). It has been stated in Red that there are 17 people on Rokkenjima if Erika joins them, so that makes 16 people.

The 16 people are: Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, Natsuhi, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, Nanjo and of course, Yasu. I do believe there is no mistake in that, correct? Kinzo should have been dead before the meeting, as it has been confirmed in Red multiple times, and even with the Golden Truth in End of the Golden Witch.

We know that for some unforeseen reason, everyone there gets killed except for Eva, Battler (and possibly Yasu). As Battler (and Yasu?) leaves the island in that boat, Yasu jumps off the boat, prompting Battler to follow him/her. Yasu dies, but Battler gets washed up to shore having lost his memories.

I personally believe that Yasu did kill everyone on the island, and committed suicide while with Battler inside the boat, and this is the sad Truth that Battler spent all of episode 8 trying to lock away. I haven't played the games as many times as what most of you may have, nor read it and analyzed it carefully, so again, I'd love to hear your takes on "the truth".

While I understand that not knowing what caused everyone to die is the beauty of Umineko (I've said this several times) and I share that sentiment, I can't help but remember R07 mentioning that this Game is solvable. I believe that this is the only real thing that one can discuss about Umineko, and I'm sure the past 1000 pages are full of that. As I'm unfortunately exceedingly behind in my studies already for playing the game, I would like to ask for everyone's ideas of what they think happened inside this cat box, and providing whatever reasons they had arriving at this conclusion. Since I didn't put nearly as much care into playing this game as most of you, I trust I'll hear some very interesting conclusions that differ from my own.

I realize that this very question is what this entire thread is probably about, but if my selfish request can be granted that will be much appreciated. Naturally, if you don't agree to what I've said, be sure to tell me! I've only played through the game once casually and didn't think much. I'm sure what you have to say will be interesting!

tl;dr: I can't be stuffed reading through all 1397 pages so please just tell what your conclusions are at this stage. I know I'm selfish so if anyone responds I'd be overjoyed. This is definitely my favorite visual novel right now. :P
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Old 2012-02-28, 03:03   Link #27938
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I think most people assume that when Ryukishi said the game was solvable, he meant the gameboards (Episode 1-4) and not the mystery of what actually happened in Ange's world, which we see in E4 and E8. You can honestly come up with any solution for Ange's world since there is literally no evidence that can be used (it's generally accepted that red truth only applies to the gameboards, so you could even claim - and some do - that Kinzo was alive on that day).

That said, my own interpretation is that Yasu is the culprit; Eva probably solved the epitaph without telling anyone, like in E3, while Battler figured out the truth just in time to stop Yasu from blowing up the island (though too late to stop most of the murders). The majority of people would disagree with this interpretation since people tend to dislike Yasu as the culprit in the 'real world' as her motivation is seen as unsatisfactory. But to me it makes a large part of the game pretty useless if Yasu ISN'T the culprit, so I think it's a much more acceptable solution than one that wasn't foreshadowed at all.
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Old 2012-02-28, 03:34   Link #27939
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Quote:
We know that for some unforeseen reason, everyone there gets killed except for Eva, Battler (and possibly Yasu). As Battler (and Yasu?) leaves the island in that boat, Yasu jumps off the boat, prompting Battler to follow him/her. Yasu dies, but Battler gets washed up to shore having lost his memories.
It's possible that the scene with Battler and Yasu escaping on the boat was a fantasy scene, since immediately before it Featherine is described as casting a golden rose into the sea as thanks for getting to write their tale.

Quote:
I personally believe that Yasu did kill everyone on the island, and committed suicide while with Battler inside the boat, and this is the sad Truth that Battler spent all of episode 8 trying to lock away. I haven't played the games as many times as what most of you may have, nor read it and analyzed it carefully, so again, I'd love to hear your takes on "the truth".
Personally, I am adamant that Yasu is infact martyring herself as the culprit and is covering for someone else who really did do it, because frankly she doesn't have a motive and in nearly every bit of characterization we get she seems to be unable to work up the nerve to do something huge, especially kill someone.

To call to attention, for example, Chick Beato, who was unable to kill Natsuhi.

Also, if Yasu did it, why did Eva lock up the truth? Why is she throwing her whole life away to protect the reputation of some maid who she never liked hanging around George anyway?

Quote:

While I understand that not knowing what caused everyone to die is the beauty of Umineko (I've said this several times) and I share that sentiment, I can't help but remember R07 mentioning that this Game is solvable. I believe that this is the only real thing that one can discuss about Umineko, and I'm sure the past 1000 pages are full of that. As I'm unfortunately exceedingly behind in my studies already for playing the game, I would like to ask for everyone's ideas of what they think happened inside this cat box, and providing whatever reasons they had arriving at this conclusion. Since I didn't put nearly as much care into playing this game as most of you, I trust I'll hear some very interesting conclusions that differ from my own.
I'm personally positive that either George or Battler did it; preferably George since Black Battler's existence is sort of a Reverse Psychology debunking of Battler theory.

Quote:
But to me it makes a large part of the game pretty useless if Yasu ISN'T the culprit
Would you mind explaining your reasoning here?
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Old 2012-02-28, 04:11   Link #27940
WitchOfDoubt
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Here's one that I haven't seen. Either it's so obvious that I'm several years late to the party, or people have underestimated Ryukishi's knack for cross-cultural wordplay.

Ryukishi07 wrote Umineko to begin as a mystery novel and turn into a medieval Mystery Play.

Umineko isn't about a conflict between mystery and 'fantasy' in a traditional sense, but between 'mystery' (as in a puzzle novel) and 'Mystery' (as in miracle).

Evidence:

* Mystery plays were medieval stories about miracles, with resurrections (of Lazarus or, of course, Christ) being a favorite theme. Dante's Divine Comedy isn't quite in the genre, but has some elements of it. A frequent theme of mystery plays was Christ's descent into Hell to save the damned ('the Harrowing of Hell').

** (Shakespeare's The Tempest very likely did borrow some elements of the Mystery Play, though.)

* An obsession with medieval Christianity and mysticism play a prominent role in the plot.

* Finally, looking at the Kanji lyrics of "Kiri no Pithos," the opening for EP 6, we find that the loanword misuteri is written with the characters 聖史劇. This is not 'mystery' in the sense of puzzle, but mystery in the sense of a Mystery Play - the characters literally translate to 'Saint's play.' I'm no Japanese expert, but Googling that set of characters mostly turns up religious works and Umineko.

** (It's likely that 'Kiri no Pithos' was written to reflect key ideas of the story. Aside from a set of lyrics that only make sense in light of the ending, the title translates as 'the pithos in the fog.' The best-known mythological example of a pithos is Pandora's box.)

So, what does it mean if Ryukishi07 was deliberately referencing medieval European plays? Well, that Beatrice has a fantastic and strange idea of what constitutes a 'fair Mystery' now makes a lot more sense...

(Also worth considering: Women's roles in Mystery Plays were often played by cross-dressing actors.)

Last edited by WitchOfDoubt; 2012-02-28 at 04:34.
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