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Old 2012-02-28, 14:37   Link #27961
AuraTwilight
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If it was fantasy, then for what reason was it shown for? Why did Yasu have to jump from that boat if he/she didn't kill anyone? Are you thinking that she/he only did it to cover for Battler? I think that's...a bit weird, don't you think? Why would she/he go so far to do that when Battler is the one in the wrong?
It was a tribute. A scene that basically summed up their story in a nutshell with a touch of sweetness, and perhaps it was Ikuko's speculation of how Battler got his amnesia. The dialog certainly implies that the Beatrice in that scene isn't real. Maybe Battler was just delusional.

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If Yasu is doing it just as a matyr, then why did she/he make the game solvable? Why did she want to make Battler realize the Truth? Battler didn't want Ange to realize the Truth, but Yasu almost wanted Battler to realize the Truth. After all, she made Episodes 1~4 to be solvable. Or is that as a Game Master, you have to make the game solvable no matter what?

But the scene at the end of Episode 4 strongly implies that Yasu WANTED Battler to remember. But if Battler remembered...then what did she do all this for? Just for Ange? That's not a strong reason I think.
There are thousands of people in the world besides Battler and Ange. Hundreds of thousands. Millions. Billions. Yasu wanted to hide the truth from those people, but not Battler, so she tried to deliver the truth in a way that only Battler could decipher, while simultaneously encouraging him to remember who she was.

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As said above, I believe that everything that happened in 1~8 literally happened. Magic and witches do exist. That means Yasu did get granted power by Lambdadelta to become a real witch, and thus to run the Game. If George is the culprit, I can understand Eva going to such lengths to hide the truth, but why would Yasu go that far? Why would Yasu try to make herself seem like the culprit all this time, just for the sake of protecting George?
Because she loves him. And because she sees herself as trash and garbage, so she doesn't see any problem with sacrificing herself for George, or Battler, or Jessica, or Eva, or Gohda, or Kyrie, or Kinzo, or...

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All I'm saying is I can accept your theory of Battler being the culprit, but I'd like you to explain a bit more about why your think George is a likely candidate. Thanks for your theory of Battler being the culprit though. I think I believe that he's the culprit too now that I think about the end of episode 5 and the entirety of episode 6. Yeah, he's more likely to be the culprit than Yasu. Except for that boat scene at the end, which hopefully you'll elaborate upon.
George is suspicious as hell, honestly, and he's the only one who fits all the clues besides Battler. Either Eva is being silent to protect Ange from her family's dark sides, or she's protecting her OWN family's darksides. She has no reason to be quiet for anyone else.

Not to mention that George and Battler have been compared throughout all of Umineko. Erika proposed George as an alternative culprit in Bern's game when it turned out to be Battler.

Not to mention, George did say he's willing to kill his whole family for Shannon. Dur.

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Now if you can just explain the boat scene more carefully, as well as why Yasu seemingly wanted Battler to find the Truth in Episode 4, I'll fully accept the theory that Battler is the culprit.
I've already told you that I reject Battler culprit theory.

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Here's another question if any of you are interested. It's about the ???? Ending of Episode 8. So...what exactly is your take of what happened at the very end, when Battler was greeted by the little children, and suddenly everyone appears around him, welcoming him into the Golden Land?
Toya probably died.

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ANGE has demonstrated true magic outside the Game Board several times such as episode 4.
Or she was going crazy. But that scene never happened either, given that Ange never jumped off the building.

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since there is no GM or Reader, anything "magical" IRL must be real magic. Thus ANGE is a real witch.
ANGE disagrees with you even post-EP4. Even without a gamemaster, she's purely capable of playing pretend, just like Maria, and her magical friends are unable to do anything that she can't do.

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Naturally many people will say that it's just illusions going inside Battler's head. I don't deny that possibility, but I'm just saying that ANGE, as the Golden Witch, should have the ability to do something like this. If someone wants to disprove my theory, they'll certainly have to convince me that ANGE is not a real witch, but merely a territorial witch like Beatrice first. Otherwise, there's no reason for her not to do so.
It has been heavily suggested that Amakusa was sniping everyone during the Kasumi scene in EP4, and Ange was just attributing it to the Stakes.

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I've never seen it that way. o.0 Ikuko has always been a human manifestation of Featherine, so I didn't think she was related to Yasu in any way...I thought Yasu/Beatrice sank to the ocean and died. It was almost 100% confirmed by the credit.
Incorrect. The human manifestation of Featherine is "Toya Hachijou", which is the fusion of Ikuko and Toya that Ange meets in EP6.

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Alright, here comes my first and biggest question. Why would Yasu run this "Murder Game"? For what purpose does he/she do it? Does he/she do it to get back at Battler for forgetting the promise? If not, then what? She knows where the Gold is, so is all of this a way for her to get rid of the Gold? Regardless, I just can't think of a good motive for him/her to initiate this "Murder Game".
Why wouldn't she? 1) She can pay the adults and solve all their problems 2) Mystery novels are the only thing she and Battler had to bond over, so presenting him a mystery is the best way to make him remember her, and 3) It's a good way to test George's and Jessica's feelings while they think Kanon and Shannon aren't around.

The Murder Mystery Game solves all of her problems, assuming nothing goes horribly wrong. But with the game going on, how easy would it be for someone to hijack it and murder people without suspicion?
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Old 2012-02-28, 14:53   Link #27962
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Of course, they'd still need a reason to do it. Battler and George are suspicious, but neither seems to have a motive.

Granted, the "takes the murder 'game' too seriously, acts in self-defense" thing doesn't require a motive. But you'd think it wouldn't lead to everyone dying.
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Old 2012-02-28, 15:07   Link #27963
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Well, George would kill everyone for Shannon.
If Battler remembered her, maybe he went batshit insane.
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Old 2012-02-28, 15:33   Link #27964
AuraTwilight
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George was hungry fatfatfatfat.

There, motive.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:05   Link #27965
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Considering how Ange reacted after reading Eva's diary I doubt Kyrie's group were the culprits.
It only makes sense if George is the culprit after all. Eva hides it, Ange is not impressed. Everything fits.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:11   Link #27966
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
Considering how Ange reacted after reading Eva's diary I doubt Kyrie's group were the culprits.
It only makes sense if George is the culprit after all. Eva hides it, Ange is not impressed. Everything fits.
I dunno, I think finding out your cousin was a killer would at least merit a bit of disgust. It's not like Ange knew enough about George to be like "Huh, he did it? Well, I guess he always was a creepy skeezebag." She'd probably at least wonder why.

Also, even if George would kill for Shannon, there has to be an eventuality in which he would both desire and need to do so. I don't think "I'd do anything for the one I love, even kill" translates to "killing someone is the first option!"
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:33   Link #27967
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Also, even if George would kill for Shannon, there has to be an eventuality in which he would both desire and need to do so. I don't think "I'd do anything for the one I love, even kill" translates to "killing someone is the first option!"
"FUCK YOU MOM" and as George does what every fat otaku loser secretly dreams of, all hell breaks loose and he has to end up killing witnesses and whatnot. Cue clusterfuck.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:57   Link #27968
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She looked rather beat up after she read it though, I'm sure it affected her a bit. But then Battler goes on and says something like : the truth wasn't so important right? Perhaps they got it from Kyrie.

Offtopic
(I noticed that Battler told Ange he read Maria's grimoire (at the scene right after Ange reads the diary.). So that's a minus to IkukoYasu theory. That's how Battler got to know about stuff he wouldn't have normally known without IkukoYasu telling him. Though this is just golden land Battler.
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Old 2012-02-28, 17:18   Link #27969
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(I noticed that Battler told Ange he read Maria's grimoire (at the scene right after Ange reads the diary.). So that's a minus to IkukoYasu theory. That's how Battler got to know about stuff he wouldn't have normally known without IkukoYasu telling him. Though this is just golden land Battler.
I'm not sure I believe that diary is authentic in the first place.

And regardless, it does have "Beatrice's" handwriting in it, so that at least is a point in favor of it either being forged by "Beatrice" or a genuine Maria-penned diary with "Beatrice" contributions. And if Tohya got it in real life (which we aren't sure about, but still), that means it had to come from somewhere, and the obvious source would be Ikuko. She can claim that she purchased it from someone, but that doesn't prove a thing.
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Old 2012-02-28, 17:45   Link #27970
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Perhaps Tohya never read it. It was Battler who read it, on the day of the conference.

I don't really think Maria's grimoire is fake, though there is something else that might hint it. After all Beato did sent a message bottle in Maria's name. So perhaps she could write the grimoire using her name as well. Bah, I don't like it, it's unnecessary.
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Old 2012-02-28, 18:29   Link #27971
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I only have one thing to add to this discussion: I'm getting the impression that people are saying Ange's reaction to Eva's diary in EP8 was... Underwhelming. And I do not understand this, because it made her jump off some 10+ stories worth of bookshelf to her death. It also made her go into complete denial and hysterics.

Of course, this was Meta!Ange, who is not necessarily Ange. But, that's the only reaction we have. We don't have epilogue!Ange's thoughts on the matter, and it's possible that she never read it. R07 seems to refer to the diary as more of a metaphorical choice for Ange to make in an interview, which makes me think that it probably doesn't even exist in a literal sense.

But anyway, that's why I'm quite confused here. Did I miss something, or am I getting the wrong impression, or...?
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Old 2012-02-28, 18:37   Link #27972
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I only have one thing to add to this discussion: I'm getting the impression that people are saying Ange's reaction to Eva's diary in EP8 was... Underwhelming. And I do not understand this, because it made her jump off some 10+ stories worth of bookshelf to her death. It also made her go into complete denial and hysterics.
She also got over it in only a few minutes.
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Old 2012-02-28, 18:40   Link #27973
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I think that scene was portraying the events prior to the reading. Seeing how the goat girls from Ange's school appeared, it was more like her memories, how she used to hate Eva and all. And also she jumped, which didn't really happen.
After all it wouldn't make much sense to act desperately like that and then say that the truth wasn't really that important.

Pfff
Now that I've looked back at it; that scene is very confusing.
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Old 2012-02-28, 18:41   Link #27974
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She also got over it in only a few minutes.
...So then, you think that all that drama was just an act she put up, or what? I don't think it's even possible to say that, since we know that Meta-World death equates to, essentially, a mental BSOD. She mentally shut down in response to it.

Yes, she revived soon after that, but that doesn't mean she was all fine and dandy with what she had read.
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Old 2012-02-28, 19:13   Link #27975
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...So then, you think that all that drama was just an act she put up, or what? I don't think it's even possible to say that, since we know that Meta-World death equates to, essentially, a mental BSOD. She mentally shut down in response to it.

Yes, she revived soon after that, but that doesn't mean she was all fine and dandy with what she had read.
Ange had a lot of preconceptions about the answer she wanted. Is she freaking out because the answer is what she feared and then somehow coming to terms with it, or is she throwing a fit because it isn't the answer she was expecting and realizing after her expectations come crashing down that it's still an answer she can live with?
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Old 2012-02-28, 19:27   Link #27976
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Y'know, I always had a vague suspicion that the book was totally blank, and that Ange's reaction was that there isn't any truth and she'll never, ever know.

Probably not based on anything that can be backed up with evidence. I should probably just read EP8 again sometime.
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Old 2012-02-28, 19:32   Link #27977
Toku
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I think that scene was portraying the events prior to the reading. Seeing how the goat girls from Ange's school appeared, it was more like her memories, how she used to hate Eva and all. And also she jumped, which didn't really happen.
After all it wouldn't make much sense to act desperately like that and then say that the truth wasn't really that important.
The goat girls scene probably was an exaggerated memory, you're right. However, that seems to be the only scene that is a memory, and it was just used to say that people had already been speculating on a "Battler's family culprit theory," which was very painful for her.

I'll respond to the rest at the same time that I respond to Renall.

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Ange had a lot of preconceptions about the answer she wanted. Is she freaking out because the answer is what she feared and then somehow coming to terms with it, or is she throwing a fit because it isn't the answer she was expecting and realizing after her expectations come crashing down that it's still an answer she can live with?
...I don't get how people could think that she ever came to terms with the Truth in the first place. I mean, even Epilogue!Ange was talking about how she still hoped that one of her family members might return.

Before I explain this, keep in mind that when she revived, she was in the Golden Land with all her fantasy buddies, apologizing to Battler for ever pursuing the truth in the first place. She then went and tried to keep the truth from being revealed to anyone else, and the majority of the remainder of the novel focused on that. This culminated in a brilliant display of "no fuck you Bernkastel, I don't care about the Truth, I'll believe whatever I want, I'll even believe that everybody survived somehow if I want to, and I'll show you by keeping them here with me even though you've denied them all in Red."

So let's think about it: How do people respond when faced with a truth they cannot come to terms with? Yes, there are times when they will suddenly become calm. However, this would be one of roughly 2 situations:

1. The person in question is so completely in denial that they will continue to deny it no matter what you say/do to them.
2. The person in question has completely given up and is about to kill themselves or something.

...If it's the first situation, then everything makes perfect sense doesn't it?

In that case, naturally her response would be "I wish I had never learned this at all. Why did I seek it in the first place? The truth isn't all that important. In fact, I should probably keep everyone else from learning about it too." And this is pretty much exactly what happened.

The two endings were pretty much "stay in denial" or "come to terms with the Truth and get yourself a Bad End."

Of course, I'm just putting all of this in really nasty terms, but I'm just trying to say it in a way that's easily understood.
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Old 2012-02-28, 19:36   Link #27978
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...I don't get how people could think that she ever came to terms with the Truth in the first place. I mean, even Epilogue!Ange was talking about how she still hoped that one of her family members might return.
Epilogue!Ange isn't Meta-Ange and they have different memories and knowledgebases.

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The two endings were pretty much "stay in denial" or "come to terms with the Truth and get yourself a Bad End."
Or, if you read inbetween the lines of what her golden truth actually IS, she's not so much living in denial as accepting "No matter what, they're alive WITHIN ME. My memories with them were real and meaningful and shaped who I was today, not just the tragedy, and I shouldn't let their deaths redefine my entire relationship with them. I should cope with that and live for them."
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Old 2012-02-28, 19:46   Link #27979
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Epilogue!Ange isn't Meta-Ange and they have different memories and knowledgebases.
It was just to say that both seem to be in denial.

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Or, if you read inbetween the lines of what her golden truth actually IS, she's not so much living in denial as accepting "No matter what, they're alive WITHIN ME. My memories with them were real and meaningful and shaped who I was today, not just the tragedy, and I shouldn't let their deaths redefine my entire relationship with them. I should cope with that and live for them."
Well, this wasn't the impression that I got. I mean, yeah, Battler was saying this to her, and she definitely did seem to accept it. But, then there was that scene where Battler reminded her of the thing she always wanted most ever since she was six: for everyone to return to her. It was only after this that she started reviving everyone. This made it seem pretty clear to me that she's actually not planning on coming to terms with it...
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Old 2012-02-28, 20:56   Link #27980
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Two things:

1) What if it's the opposite? That is, Kinzo knew who Yasu was (or suspected) and pushed her to solve the epitaph because he wanted her to do it and he was a nice guy? But, believing herself not to be important or worthy of the consideration (she has self-esteem issues, after all), she invented this idea that Shannon was somehow treated more distantly.
Well I actually like that even more, but I think its unlikely...
1) Because of how Kinzo behaves with almost any women (unless Yasu is actually a guy I guess...)
2) Shannon isnt treated in a particularily distant way - thats the way Kinzo basically is with everyone. Kanon's treatment by Kinzo is what's "special" so I think if it was as you said, Shannon would've pictured herself particularily despised by Kinzo, which isn't the case.

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2) There's a number of memories Kanon has in ep6 that don't seem to make any particular sense. He remembers hanging out with Kinzo on friendly terms, for example. These don't appear to be Yasu's memories, but how do we know they're not, and if they aren't, what the hell is Kanon doing remembering things that never actually happened to him? What's the point of showing us that?
Kanon's memories feels to me very related to Lion.
Most of these memories would make sense if they were memories that Lion lived in arc 7. So what he's doing remembering these is basically the same thing as Beato (3) remembering things Beato 1 and 2 did.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-02-28 at 21:23.
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