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Old 2012-02-28, 20:59   Link #27981
Renall
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Isn't it fairly possible, nay, probable that Yasu is male? We dance around that issue a lot, but it's certainly supported by a lot of Yasu's self-image issues.
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:02   Link #27982
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The two endings were pretty much "stay in denial" or "come to terms with the Truth and get yourself a Bad End."

Of course, I'm just putting all of this in really nasty terms, but I'm just trying to say it in a way that's easily understood.
There's a problem where misunderstood and understood does't mean the same thing.
You're not even asking the correct question... Its like, accepting something that obviously can be a trick as a trick, or still believe in it being magic, resulting in two different endings.

The one real difference between the two endings, is that in the "trick" ending, Ange doesn't do the simple assumption that Battler did from the start : you can't prove a world fact (in Battler's case, that magic doesn't exist anywhere).

In Ange's situation, its the truth about Prime. The existence of magic and the truth of that day are interchangible endlessly as things that cannot be proven nor disproven.
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:07   Link #27983
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It was just to say that both seem to be in denial.
but one of those Anges has nothing to be in denial about because she doesn't know what happened.

Quote:
Well, this wasn't the impression that I got. I mean, yeah, Battler was saying this to her, and she definitely did seem to accept it. But, then there was that scene where Battler reminded her of the thing she always wanted most ever since she was six: for everyone to return to her. It was only after this that she started reviving everyone. This made it seem pretty clear to me that she's actually not planning on coming to terms with it...
What does it mean for everyone to come back to her? Can that only happen in either a literal, physical sense, or a delusional, fantasy sense? Can't she simply learn to cope with the fact that she'll never know, and hold on to what's most dear and important to her?
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:20   Link #27984
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Isn't it fairly possible, nay, probable that Yasu is male? We dance around that issue a lot, but it's certainly supported by a lot of Yasu's self-image issues.
Took a few mins to think about this possibility more properly, and I guess it really works.

Kanon's memories doesn't basically lead to being Beatrice (in term of complexes and obcession with Battler). Shannon's memories does. The later thus "serves a clear purpose in the sequence of events" and thus might be more doubtful, yeah.

This is however redefining most things known in Umineko. I don't mind that at all, but I'd love some elaboration on the idea.
One thing for it is the argument that Hachijou is basically Ryuukishi's avatar.
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:20   Link #27985
ImperialX
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Just woke up and your comments made my morning! Time for some responses.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, "it was an accident" does not entail that any murders happened, nor does it require a murder game happened. It's not unfathomable that there was just a chance detonation during the storm, entirely without human intervention. Is it implausible? Yes, but so is having dozens of WW2 torpedoes rigged to explode 40 years after the fact. Why would we believe one and not the other?
I'm pretty sure that at least some murders happened in those two days. If no murders happened, there shouldn't be any reason for Eva and Battler to be alone and separated from everyone else on October 6. It's just not feasible.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
As far as the gold's veracity: First of all, we don't know there was ever any gold, and we don't know that Kinzo got it from an Italian submarine. What we do know is that Kinzo presented at least one gold bar to a business associate, and this person supposedly confirmed its existence to the satisfaction of people who gave Kinzo loans. Now, if you ask me, which is more plausible and more in character with Kinzo's personality: That he really did happen to have 10t of WW2 gold, or that he scraped together the illusion that he did with a bit of manipulation?
If Kinzo himself didn't speak of the tale regarding the submarine after Will used his Theatregoing rights, I would believe in the latter as Natsuhi and Krauss did - the gold being an illusion that he did with some manipulation. However, I'm inclined to believe everything we saw in Episode 7 because there's no reason for Bernkastel and Featherine to lie. There are some staple concepts of the series there, and if I don't believe those I can't believe anything.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm also not sure I'd buy Ange's reaction being what it was in ep8 if what she read was "Somebody killed everybody else for money." That's exactly the sort of answer she was afraid she might see. That's the sort of answer that she'd been teased about. The implication seems to be that what she saw was both surprising and underwhelming. Given the psychological impact some theories seemed to have on her, whatever she saw apparently wasn't that traumatic.
I just had a look through that scene again. We can see that she was seemingly perfectly prepared to witness the Truth, yet she did break down upon reading it. She wanted to push all the fault to Eva at 49:16, saying that she'd rather Eva-san be the culprit than accepting the Truth. To be honest, I think if the Truth had truly been an accident, then no one should be at fault and she wouldn't have to deny it like that.

I still think after rewatching this scene that Wanderer's "Murder Game gone wrong, with Battler being the first to snap" sounds more appropriate. It accounts for Yasu's "sin" and Ange's reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazar View Post
ell, first of all, the circumstances where Ikuko and Battler met are quite strange. Battler has been hit by a car and is (most likely) sprawled in the middle of the road on a rainy night. Ikuko doesn't take Battler to a hospital, instead, she takes him into her house. Even though she called a personal physician to help Battler, it still doesn't sound right. (We could also argue that she did this, so Battler wouldn't be recognised thanks to the One Winged Eagle symbol on his clothes)(On another note, we could also argue that she did this just like Kinzo did when he "kidnapped" Beatrice the first and took her to another specific physician, Nanjo.
Or maybe Ikuko really was a person who ran Battler over, and pretended that he was ran over by someone else. Battler actually suspected that too, didn't he? Of course, having no way to prove it, he just lived with it and accepted what she told him. If Ikuko really did run him over, all these abnormalities can be explained as well.

Of course, Ikuko being Yasu is a beautiful ending and more filled with love than my previous interpretation so I love the concept. If only Ikuko didn't look so much like Featherine, I would probably agree with you. It's just that she looks too much like Featherine and that puts me off the idea.

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Originally Posted by Tazar View Post
EP 1 and 2 were both wrote by Beatrice.
We are led to believe that they were wrote before October 4th of 1986.
I don't believe we are ever told when the Game Board was created. The creation and hosting of a Game exists in the Meta World where time is of no essence.

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Originally Posted by Tazar View Post
However, that is impossible. Why?

Because Ange DOESN'T appear as a character in those 2 tales.
Beatrice had no way of knowing that Ange would be abscent that day. After all, she had stomach ache. How would Beato know that someone would have stomach ache that day?

Battler has been abscent for 6 years in a row, and yet, Beatrice knew that he would come that day.

Isn't that too much of a casuality or a big logic hole by Ryukishi? Isn't it easier to assume that Yasu survived the explosion and wrote the games afterwards?
I see no holes here, to be honest. We know that Beatrice only became a real witch after being sponsored by Lambdadelta. Afterwards she created the Game Board with the intention of showing Battler her version of the Truth, and for Lambdadelta…a form of entertainment.

The question is, when exactly did Lambdadelta lift Yasu up into the Meta World and start the Game? Looking at the epilogue, it's likely sometime before October 6, since Beatrice about to escape with Battler says she she has been responsible for the killing of the family in my different Worlds. However, it's not at all weird to say that the Game was created after the events of October 4 and 5. Thus, she would know that Battler would come that day, and that Ange has a stomach ache.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
What really convinced me was when I was trying to make sense of Maria's weird behavior while rewatching the first arc of the Umineko anime . It's really kind of funny and cute how over-the-top she is, actually, when you look at her with the murder game idea in mind. Plus,
it totally gives the same kind of vibe as you get from Rena in Onikakushi-hen after you know most of the answers in Higurashi
I actually saw the Umineko anime. I think it was horrible and I'd give it 4/10.

When the expressions of the characters became demented, the first thing that went through my head was: "OK…DEEN, how are you going to explain this terrible animation this time? Are you going to say that the Hinamizawa Syndrome is affecting everyone on this island as well?"

I still think it's ingenious how they pretty much accounted for all the bad animation in Higurashi by saying "Oh it was all the Hinamizawa Syndrome! It's not bad animation! We did it on purpose!". Now that I've finished Umineko, I…don't think they can get away with it this time. :P

But yeah, I guess you can push it that way, although it's definitely not as strong as Higurashi when it comes to the vibe, after all, it's the freaking Hinamizawa Syndrome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
lthough, the combination of murder game theory and Battler culprit theory (which is also popular and has been around forever...) into a "paranoid Battler as the culprit theory" was my idea. So I'll take credit for that .
Well, that's pretty good work. It provides a good answer to most of my questions, so I do like your theory quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Beatrice, like Kanon and Shannon, is a "mode" of Yasu. I'm inclined to view the scene as a metaphor for the death of Beatrice as a mode
Alright, fair enough. Episode 6 depended entirely upon Kanon being used as a mode, otherwise Erika would have killed Beato with her bullet right there, so I'll take your word for it. However, this doesn't explain why Battler would jump off the motorboat. What is your take on that?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Battler. He's always at the center of every game, never in the know and always the last left alive. It's all about this crazy girl's 6 year long obsession with the guy. It's a shy confession of love to him. It's a mystery because that was the common interest that brought them together. And it's a fantasy because magic is at the core of Yasu's being; she wants to share that side of herself with Battler, but she's shy so she can't just outright say it.

There's also Beatrice's general desire to be acknowledged. Take Yasu's trick to make that one maid's key disappear off of her key ring for example. She did that because the maid didn't take Beatrice seriously.
I see. So you're saying that when Yasu saw Battler again, she is still mentally unstable, having split personalities, and since Beatrice is the personality that retained Shannon's love with Battler, Beatrice wanted to be acknowledged. And to do that, she gets everyone to play along with her murder game, and promising the Gold to the adults if they cooperated like you said below.

OK, I can accept this. Although I still think Yasu is crazy.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
They would if they actually saw some of the gold. Remember in episode 2 how there was that brief Oct.4 midnight scene showing all 7 of the adults acknowledging Beatrice in the chapel? Then when the "crime scene" was discovered in the morning there were those displayed 3 gold bars?

I'm not saying that's exactly what really happened, but Yasu really does have the resources to get the adults to do what she wants. And it's a lot easier to bribe someone into humoring a fake murder game than it is to bribe them into being accomplices to real mass murder.
Still a Murder Game just so Battler can acknowledge her…wow. That's seriously some pretty crazy stuff. So you still think that it is Battler who snapped and actually killed someone? After all, they do leave the island before it explodes on a motorboat. I'm pretty sure everyone is already dead. Renall stated before that it's possible that no one died and there was simply an accident, but we both see the problems in that where it doesn't explain why Battler would independently leave the island.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's funny, because I wasn't exactly trying to explain the boat scene. I'm one of those people who thinks Yasu survived and is Ikuko (I would add to what Tazar is saying about this, but I don't have the time at the moment).
Actually…ironically, your last post made the boat scene confusing again. As said above, if Yasu didn't jump off the boat and only Beatrice died, why did Battler jump off the boat? And thank you for taking your time to write such a detailed response. I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It was a tribute. A scene that basically summed up their story in a nutshell with a touch of sweetness, and perhaps it was Ikuko's speculation of how Battler got his amnesia. The dialog certainly implies that the Beatrice in that scene isn't real. Maybe Battler was just delusional.
Based on what you wrote I guess you're one of the people who think Yasu is alive/is Ikuko is as well. So why did Battler jump off that motorboat if Yasu never jumped? So basically Ikuko decided to erase the Beatrice mode, and then Battler randomly jumped even if Yasu was still on the boat?

I don't know…it just doesn't really sound right. Battler was never delusional in the series except after he lost his memories and became Tohya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There are thousands of people in the world besides Battler and Ange. Hundreds of thousands. Millions. Billions. Yasu wanted to hide the truth from those people, but not Battler, so she tried to deliver the truth in a way that only Battler could decipher, while simultaneously encouraging him to remember who she was.
Yeah, so you're definitely saying that Yasu = Ikuko. It definitely makes sense but can you explain to me about just what a being Featherine is? Ikuko always refers to people as "Children of Man", which is exactly the same manner in which Featherine speaks in. Also, they look pretty much identical.

Featherine is NOT someone Yasu dreamt up. She is one of the most powerful witch in existence, and the fact that Yasu decides to disguise himself/herself to like her upon arriving to the mainland is just completely weird. Also, every time Ikuko talks with Ange, they flip between RL and Meta World, and Featherine is always there in Ikuko's place. How can this be explained?

Of course, Wanderer and Tazar, feel free to explain this question's answer to me. I feel that's the last rock I have to climb over before accepting this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Incorrect. The human manifestation of Featherine is "Toya Hachijou", which is the fusion of Ikuko and Toya that Ange meets in EP6.
Yeah, I read this part as well and the question I asked earlier, I still don't quite understand.

I'm just getting this straight, you think that in episode 6 the "Toya Hachijou" that Ange meets isn't Ikuko, but someone completely different?

Isn't Toya Hachijou the Pen Name for Battler and Ikuko, with Ikuko being the public figure? That's what I've always thought after reading the novels.

That's a pretty bold concept. Is there proof for this? Because I've always assumed that it was Ikuko meeting with Ange the entire time, under the pen name of Toya. Battler was probably chilling at home during all of episode 6 while Ikuko is meeting with Ange. Ange doesn't meet with Toya/Battler until the ???? ending of episode 8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because she loves him. And because she sees herself as trash and garbage, so she doesn't see any problem with sacrificing herself for George, or Battler, or Jessica, or Eva, or Gohda, or Kyrie, or Kinzo, or...
Oh snap, forgot that Yasu loves George as Shannon. You got me there. :P

But still, that doesn't explain why Ange would hide the truth so much after he learnt of it. If George is the culprit…then so what? Why does she have to reject it? Why does she say that she'd rather Eva-obasan to be the culprit?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Toya probably died.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
ANGE disagrees with you even post-EP4. Even without a gamemaster, she's purely capable of playing pretend, just like Maria, and her magical friends are unable to do anything that she can't do.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Why wouldn't she? 1) She can pay the adults and solve all their problems 2) Mystery novels are the only thing she and Battler had to bond over, so presenting him a mystery is the best way to make him remember her, and 3) It's a good way to test George's and Jessica's feelings while they think Kanon and Shannon aren't around.

The Murder Mystery Game solves all of her problems, assuming nothing goes horribly wrong. But with the game going on, how easy would it be for someone to hijack it and murder people without suspicion?
And you think George is the one who hijacked it, right? I can accept your theory as well. Thanks for writing all of this up, by the way. Really appreciate it. Now if you can elaborate a bit about Ange's behavior upon reading the truth, that'll be perfect.

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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
Considering how Ange reacted after reading Eva's diary I doubt Kyrie's group were the culprits. It only makes sense if George is the culprit after all. Eva hides it, Ange is not impressed. Everything fits.
And you can help elaborating. I personally thought that Ange would go to that extreme to cover for George, especially if he killed everyone because of Shannon :P

And seriously, why are we using the name "Toya"? It's so confusing because we don't know if you're referring to Ikuko under her public pen name, or just Battler after losing his memories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Isn't it fairly possible, nay, probable that Yasu is male? We dance around that issue a lot, but it's certainly supported by a lot of Yasu's self-image issues.
It's certainly possible, but it doesn't change much, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Epilogue!Ange isn't Meta-Ange and they have different memories and knowledgebases.
Yeah, that's really, really strange. I don't know why Ange IRL didn't recognize Ikuko after already meeting her in episode 6. What happened to Meta-Ange?
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:32   Link #27986
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Based on what you wrote I guess you're one of the people who think Yasu is alive/is Ikuko is as well. So why did Battler jump off that motorboat if Yasu never jumped? So basically Ikuko decided to erase the Beatrice mode, and then Battler randomly jumped even if Yasu was still on the boat?

I don't know…it just doesn't really sound right. Battler was never delusional in the series except after he lost his memories and became Tohya.
Actually, I don't. I think Yasu is dead and gone. I just don't think Battler was able to have such a sweet, romantic 'parting' with her, and his unspoken regrets might be aggravating his amnesia. It's entirely possible that Yasu might have been one of the first people to die.

I just literally don't think the scene ever happened. Maybe Battler took a boat, but it's unlikely Beatrice ever went with her. The whole scene opens up practically word for word the same as Kinzo's and Bice's leaving of the island.

Quote:
Yeah, so you're definitely saying that Yasu = Ikuko.
No I'm not.

Quote:
It definitely makes sense but can you explain to me about just what a being Featherine is? Ikuko always refers to people as "Children of Man", which is exactly the same manner in which Featherine speaks in. Also, they look pretty much identical.
Ikuko has never used the term "Children of Man", only the "Toya" that looks like Ikuko that Ange meets. "Toya" is a sort of fusion of Ikuko and Battler!Toya, having traits of both and breaking the fourth wall and all that nonsense. She's basically Featherine in a different costume.

Quote:
Yeah, I read this part as well and the question I asked earlier, I still don't quite understand.

I'm just getting this straight, you think that in episode 6 the "Toya Hachijou" that Ange meets isn't Ikuko, but someone completely different?

Isn't Toya Hachijou the Pen Name for Battler and Ikuko, with Ikuko being the public figure? That's what I've always thought after reading the novels.

That's a pretty bold concept. Is there proof for this? Because I've always assumed that it was Ikuko meeting with Ange the entire time, under the pen name of Toya. Battler was probably chilling at home during all of episode 6 while Ikuko is meeting with Ange. Ange doesn't meet with Toya/Battler until the ???? ending of episode 8.
There's tiers of reality, here. The scene in EP6 where Ange met 'Toya' never happened by the novel's own admittance. Ange doesn't ever remember doing so and it doesn't fit in her timeline, and EP8's epilogue retcons it out entirely. Either it was a fictional story written by Toya and Ikuko for some reason, or, for Magic-theorists, the witch Featherine borrowed a face and spoke to Meta-Ange in a sort of "1998!Gameboard".

Quote:
Oh snap, forgot that Yasu loves George as Shannon. You got me there. :P

But still, that doesn't explain why Ange would hide the truth so much after he learnt of it. If George is the culprit…then so what? Why does she have to reject it? Why does she say that she'd rather Eva-obasan to be the culprit?
Why the hell is she hiding the truth at all? There's no moral reason to do so.

Quote:
And you think George is the one who hijacked it, right? I can accept your theory as well. Thanks for writing all of this up, by the way. Really appreciate it. Now if you can elaborate a bit about Ange's behavior upon reading the truth, that'll be perfect.
What do you need me to elaborate on? Anything could've caused it. She could've thrown her fit for a number of reasons, including something like "Rudolf and Kyrie tried to run away like cowards, leaving Battler to fend for himself" or "Kyrie had her brains smashed across a rock" or something. She can have her freakout without her loved ones being criminal.

Quote:
And seriously, why are we using the name "Toya"? It's so confusing because we don't know if you're referring to Ikuko under her public pen name, or just Battler after losing his memories.
I'm using "Toya" to refer to the Featherine-as-Ikuko-Lookalike-Named-Toya, and just plan Toya to refer to amnesiac Battler, if that helps.
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:33   Link #27987
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Originally Posted by ImperialX View Post
And seriously, why are we using the name "Toya"? It's so confusing because we don't know if you're referring to Ikuko under her public pen name, or just Battler after losing his memories.
Sorry, had to correct this.
Hacijou Tohya is the penname of both Tohya and Ikuko.
The public doesn't know the truth about Hachijou Tohya, and they only ever had two public appearance:
First : Some guy (maybe Tohya) doing an autograph session previously, while wearing shades, making everyone believe it was Hachijou Tohya.
Second : Ikuko's appearance in the fake revealing of Eva's diary (lol.... why would she even have that to begin with?).

Tohya is the name of Tohya, and refers to him.
Ikuko is how we refer to Hachijou Ikuko (or simply Hachijou) as this is her name.

Before Ange's meeting with Hachijou in arc 6 (likely as a result of Tohya refusing to see Ange, and her still wanting to give Ange the information she would've gotten from them outside of Battler's life/death status), no one ever thought "Tohya" was Ikuko.
Basically this is more of a trick on us readers then a trick that Ikuko herself really used.
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Old 2012-02-28, 21:53   Link #27988
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Why the hell is she hiding the truth at all? There's no moral reason to do so.

What do you need me to elaborate on? Anything could've caused it. She could've thrown her fit for a number of reasons, including something like "Rudolf and Kyrie tried to run away like cowards, leaving Battler to fend for himself" or "Kyrie had her brains smashed across a rock" or something. She can have her freakout without her loved ones being criminal.

I'm using "Toya" to refer to the Featherine-as-Ikuko-Lookalike-Named-Toya, and just plan Toya to refer to amnesiac Battler, if that helps.
OK, I get your stance on this now. Thanks for clearing a lot of things up.

I still think Ange's reactions are just too strong for something like an accident of the type you mentioned though. I mean, it's pretty apparent that even at the end of episode 7 where Bernkastel shows her "the truth" of her family being the real culprits, she didn't go as far as attempt suicide right away or snap right there like she did when she found the Truth in episode 8.

As mentioned, yes, she got over it within a few minutes, but that was still quite an extreme reaction.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Before Ange's meeting with Hachijou in arc 6 (likely as a result of Tohya refusing to see Ange, and her still wanting to give Ange the information she would've gotten from them outside of Battler's life/death status), no one ever thought "Tohya" was Ikuko.
Basically this is more of a trick on us readers then a trick that Ikuko herself really used.
Wait wait wait, I thought in episode 6, Ange already realized that the guy who was signing autographs in shades was a fake and she wanted to meet the real "Hachijou Toya". Agreeing to her request, Hachijou Ikuko met with Ange. Ange thought that she was the real "Hachijou Toya" when in reality it was only half, since Battler/Tohya himself didn't show himself. At least, that's the literal interpretation.

With the Yasu=Ikuko theory, we're saying that the person who looks like Hachijou Ikuko that met with Ange in episode 6 is just Featherine taking a human form, and Ange thought that this person was the real "Hachijou Tohya"? Although the epilogue in Episode 8 implies that Ange never met Hachijou Ikuko before. This is just all really confusing...
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Old 2012-02-28, 22:05   Link #27989
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Originally Posted by ImperialX View Post
Featherine is NOT someone Yasu dreamt up. She is one of the most powerful witch in existence, and the fact that Yasu decides to disguise himself/herself to like her upon arriving to the mainland is just completely weird. Also, every time Ikuko talks with Ange, they flip between RL and Meta World, and Featherine is always there in Ikuko's place. How can this be explained?
But that's just it, Featherine is someone Yasu dreamed up. She's the avatar of the cynical, world-weary, post-1998 Yasu who gave up on Tohya ever getting his memories back. Yasu needed a new avatar after killing off Meta-Beatrice, who symbolized her hopes and regrets from 1986.

Who else but the original creator can declare something like "that Beatrice will never be revived again"?
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Old 2012-02-28, 22:13   Link #27990
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
But that's just it, Featherine is someone Yasu dreamed up. She's the avatar of the cynical, world-weary, post-1998 Yasu who gave up on Tohya ever getting his memories back. Yasu needed a new avatar after killing off Meta-Beatrice, who symbolized her hopes and regrets from 1986.

Who else but the original creator can declare something like "that Beatrice will never be revived again"?
Well, if you believe that there is no "real" magic, and that the entire story of Umineko never literally happened, then yes, Featherine is definitely just someone who Yasu dreamt up.

If you believe in the existence of "real" magic however, you have to think of it the other way around and it doesn't make much sense. And I do believe that real magic exists as in my previous comment from the last page.

And since Featherine is a witch, sure she can use Red.
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Old 2012-02-28, 22:42   Link #27991
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OK, I get your stance on this now. Thanks for clearing a lot of things up.

I still think Ange's reactions are just too strong for something like an accident of the type you mentioned though. I mean, it's pretty apparent that even at the end of episode 7 where Bernkastel shows her "the truth" of her family being the real culprits, she didn't go as far as attempt suicide right away or snap right there like she did when she found the Truth in episode 8.

As mentioned, yes, she got over it within a few minutes, but that was still quite an extreme reaction.
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Who else but the original creator can declare something like "that Beatrice will never be revived again"?
This is assuming that what we read is what Toya/Ikuko/Featherine/whatever wrote down. It seems to be very likely that the Meta-World doesn't exist in the stories, and that red truth is a Meta-World red.

To be fair, Ange's kind of overdramatic. Just look at how she acted in school, or how she makes a habit of jumping off buildings, or how she turns into hamburger whenever she gets sad.
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Old 2012-02-28, 23:27   Link #27992
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by ImperialX View Post
Well, if you believe that there is no "real" magic, and that the entire story of Umineko never literally happened, then yes, Featherine is definitely just someone who Yasu dreamt up.

If you believe in the existence of "real" magic however, you have to think of it the other way around and it doesn't make much sense. And I do believe that real magic exists as in my previous comment from the last page.

And since Featherine is a witch, sure she can use Red.
In EP8, there is a scene where Featherine/Ikuko is swapping between the meta and allegedly real worlds with Ange, and Ange has trouble deciding which name to call her by. Ikuko tells her that calling her "Featherine" in the "real" world is like calling an actress by the name of a role she's finished playing. What does the fantasy stance make of that?

At any rate, if you start from the premise that Ikuko/Featherine is a magical witch, you still have the parts where Ikuko claims to be the author of the games, making Beato at least partially her character. There's also the Our Confession booklet, which showed Beato having pretty much all of the attitudes Ikuko/Featherine expresses about her writing and readers in EP6. You end up with Featherine creating Meta-Beatrice or using her as a piece, which is functionally equivalent to Ikuko authoring her.

On the other hand, the arguments for the last link of Ikuko=Yasu are based on things like information availability for writing Beato and the oddities in Ikuko's behavior. If you say "no problem, it's because Ikuko's a witch" then naturally none of those arguments are going to work no matter what you do.

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Ikuko has never used the term "Children of Man", only the "Toya" that looks like Ikuko that Ange meets.
No, she does it at least once while talking to a publisher in EP8.
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Old 2012-02-28, 23:36   Link #27993
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In EP8, there is a scene where Featherine/Ikuko is swapping between the meta and allegedly real worlds with Ange, and Ange has trouble deciding which name to call her by. Ikuko tells her that calling her "Featherine" in the "real" world is like calling an actress by the name of a role she's finished playing. What does the fantasy stance make of that?
Featherine is roleplaying Ikuko who is roleplaying Piece-Featherine. :P

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At any rate, if you start from the premise that Ikuko/Featherine is a magical witch, you still have the parts where Ikuko claims to be the author of the games, making Beato at least partially her character. There's also the Our Confession booklet, which showed Beato having pretty much all of the attitudes Ikuko/Featherine expresses about her writing and readers in EP6. You end up with Featherine creating Meta-Beatrice or using her as a piece, which is functionally equivalent to Ikuko authoring her.
Well, if you want to go the FANTASY route, authoring someone doesn't necessarily mean the same as creating/embodying them. See: The entire Ushiromiya family and whoever is writing them at the time.
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Old 2012-02-29, 01:02   Link #27994
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Originally Posted by ImperialX View Post
It's certainly possible, but it doesn't change much, does it?
Not much... unless Battler is gay, but Yasu doesn't realize this and creates "Beatrice" to love him, setting the stage for a needlessly elaborate "love letter" which Battler claims wasn't necessary.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In EP8, there is a scene where Featherine/Ikuko is swapping between the meta and allegedly real worlds with Ange, and Ange has trouble deciding which name to call her by. Ikuko tells her that calling her "Featherine" in the "real" world is like calling an actress by the name of a role she's finished playing. What does the fantasy stance make of that?

At any rate, if you start from the premise that Ikuko/Featherine is a magical witch, you still have the parts where Ikuko claims to be the author of the games, making Beato at least partially her character. There's also the Our Confession booklet, which showed Beato having pretty much all of the attitudes Ikuko/Featherine expresses about her writing and readers in EP6. You end up with Featherine creating Meta-Beatrice or using her as a piece, which is functionally equivalent to Ikuko authoring her.

On the other hand, the arguments for the last link of Ikuko=Yasu are based on things like information availability for writing Beato and the oddities in Ikuko's behavior. If you say "no problem, it's because Ikuko's a witch" then naturally none of those arguments are going to work no matter what you do.
I keep telling you guys, there never was an Ushiromiya Battler or Ushiromiya family or Rokkenjima Incident. Tohya is being made to think he was a nonexistent person for Ikuko's twisted experimental fiction exercises! Or he's a homonculus created by Featherine to create a meta-reality out of a purely theoretical one. How can anyone possibly have missed this?
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Old 2012-02-29, 02:37   Link #27995
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Alright, fair enough. Episode 6 depended entirely upon Kanon being used as a mode, otherwise Erika would have killed Beato with her bullet right there, so I'll take your word for it. However, this doesn't explain why Battler would jump off the motorboat. What is your take on that?
I don't know. Loneliness in guilt? Love for the "mode" of Beatrice? Well, what chronologically happened to the mode of "Battler" after that, hm? Just like I'm saying the "Beatrice"-of-Yasu died, I'm also saying the "Battler"-of-Battler died (later to evolve to Touya).

Basically, I don't see a reason that Battler's jump couldn't also be a metaphor, and the motive for a metaphorical jump is a bit of a different question from that of a real one.

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I see. So you're saying that when Yasu saw Battler again, she is still mentally unstable, having split personalities, and since Beatrice is the personality that retained Shannon's love with Battler, Beatrice wanted to be acknowledged. And to do that, she gets everyone to play along with her murder game, and promising the Gold to the adults if they cooperated like you said below.

OK, I can accept this. Although I still think Yasu is crazy.
Yeah, some variation of that. But I don't like the term "mentally unstable" since I don't think she's the kind of person who would randomly go berserk or, believe it or not, hallucinate. She's just got a helluva lot of imagination and a helluva big crush on Battler. And she's naive. That's all.

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Still a Murder Game just so Battler can acknowledge her…wow. That's seriously some pretty crazy stuff. So you still think that it is Battler who snapped and actually killed someone? After all, they do leave the island before it explodes on a motorboat. I'm pretty sure everyone is already dead. Renall stated before that it's possible that no one died and there was simply an accident, but we both see the problems in that where it doesn't explain why Battler would independently leave the island.
The explosion happens at 24:00 Oct. 5, before the motorboat.

Honestly, I enjoy your ready enthusiasm for my idea, but yeah there's still the big blank spot between "Battler freaks out and kills someone" to "everyone dies except Battler, Yasu, and Eva", so I wouldn't go so far as to simply say "it's what I think is what happened." I just like the idea, and think it has potential.

Renall's right that none of the answers are really satisfactory in any comprehensive way.

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Originally Posted by ImperialX View Post
Featherine is NOT someone Yasu dreamt up. She is one of the most powerful witch in existence, and the fact that Yasu decides to disguise himself/herself to like her upon arriving to the mainland is just completely weird. Also, every time Ikuko talks with Ange, they flip between RL and Meta World, and Featherine is always there in Ikuko's place. How can this be explained?
Well, it works no matter which side ("fantasy" vs. "reality") you base things on. If Yasu didn't dream up Featherine, couldn't Featherine still have dreamed up Yasu? For example, Yasu could be Featherine taken human form. She would be yet unaware of her own true identity as Featherine, but this would be an arrangement that bored-of-living-because-I-already-know-everything Featherine would desire. And Ikuko would be the "awakened" version of Featherine, yet still in human form.

Something like that. It's not too hard to justify.

------------------

There's a connection between Ikuko and Yasu that, to my surprise, no one has brought up yet, and that's Ikuko's name.

Touya's name comes from Battler's age during the incident, which was 18. Written in Japanese kanji, Touya's name literally just reads "eighteen" (although when pronounced it comes out differently from how Japanese would typically say "eighteen", which would be "juu-hachi").

Ikuko's name actually has an interesting numbers connection too. The "ko" ("child") is a very common and generic suffix to girl's names so we can set that aside for now. As for "Iku", while it doesn't use written kanji numbers, it can actually be phonetically heard as "one-nine".

Yasu's real age at the time of the incident was 19.

You might be (understandably) thinking that such a connection could easily be a coincidence. However, there's also the use of the exact same "Iku" kanji in another name, and that's "Hachijou Touya's" online alias of "Itouikukuro Reigonamu", which number-puns into 11019960576.

So there's no way that RK07 was unaware of the possibility that Ikuko could be thought of as "19-child". It seems quite likely that it was intentional, which would mean that either it's a trolltastic red herring, or there's an important connection between the identities of Ikuko and Yasu.

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Isn't it fairly possible, nay, probable that Yasu is male? We dance around that issue a lot, but it's certainly supported by a lot of Yasu's self-image issues.
Are you saying sex-male or gender-male? Because I have said that Yasu's sex is male and gender is female(-ish, at least) for a long time.
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Old 2012-02-29, 09:44   Link #27996
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Are you saying sex-male or gender-male? Because I have said that Yasu's sex is male and gender is female(-ish, at least) for a long time.
Yasu appears to be uncomfortable with a female gender image, however. Wouldn't that suggest that he's not comfortable self-identifying as female? After all, it doesn't appear to have been a choice.

For that matter, Battler strikes me as trying too hard himself...
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Old 2012-02-29, 11:44   Link #27997
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Yasu appears to be uncomfortable with a female gender image, however. Wouldn't that suggest that he's not comfortable self-identifying as female? After all, it doesn't appear to have been a choice.
True, but Yasu doesn't seem any more "comfortable" with a male gender image either. If I have to pick one, I'll still call Yasu a "she".

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For that matter, Battler strikes me as trying too hard himself...
Trying too hard at what? Pretending Yasu is female?
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Old 2012-02-29, 12:09   Link #27998
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Umm . Yasu is female! *trollface* .
Btw you said Yasu is uncomfortable with being female? why? should'nt she be uncomfortable with male gender too ?
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Old 2012-02-29, 12:26   Link #27999
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I think Yasu was born male. Even the name Lion that Kinzo chose is rather masculine. At least compared to the names he chose for Eva and Rosa. And then there's the business with the man from 19 years ago, Natsuhi kept referring to him as a man so the baby must have been born male. Perhaps the accident altered the baby's gender somehow.
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Old 2012-02-29, 12:42   Link #28000
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I think Yasu was born male. Even the name Lion that Kinzo chose is rather masculine. At least compared to the names he chose for Eva and Rosa. And then there's the business with the man from 19 years ago, Natsuhi kept referring to him as a man so the baby must have been born male. Perhaps the accident altered the baby's gender somehow.
But Natsuhi might not have known the childs gender. hell yasu might not even be the child of 19 years ago .
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